So im intereated to know what beleifes this community has. Like about god and all that jazz. And im not making this to start a huge flame fest. Im just interested.
For me i would like to beleive that there is a god, but i just cant accept the fact that there is or ever could have been such a higher being of power.
And mods if this topic gets out of hand just delete it, i know this subject is touch for some ppl.
I'm a Christian.
Deist here.
FSM
Im an atheist until proven otherwise :)
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 08:55:50 AM
Im an atheist until proven otherwise :)
Don't ask for someone to prove it, just leave it alone.
IBTF
I'm a member of the Westboro Baptist Church. Get at me.
Quote from: Gummuh on July 23, 2012, 10:27:18 AM
I'm a member of the Westboro Baptist Church. Get at me.
Watch keven smiths "burn in hell" on Netflix it's awesome.
The great thing about this country is you can believe what you want and act like a stupid idiot defending that belief. Most people can't talk about their belief, not religion cuz atheists and agnostics don't have one, without get uppidity and defensive. But for me who is a Christian an adult conversation with other beliefs is refreshing. Remember everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness so respect other people's beliefs as they respect yours.
^^
Very well said.
(those are arrows not eyebrows)
Unitarian Universalist! Hippies without drugs!
Ive always hate arguing about religon. It like talk to a brick wall. I feel that if everyone just let ppl live how they wany with there religon and it has no effect on u theres no point in arguing.
Tread lightly, gentlemen. I would love to discuss topics like rational adults. Prove to me that iMtG can do so. For lo' the BanHammer and LockMace loom large!
Quote from: Willthomjr on July 23, 2012, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 08:55:50 AM
Im an atheist until proven otherwise :)
Don't ask for someone to prove it, just leave it alone.
IBTF
No i didnt mean like that, if someone could prove anything i'd believe. But so far none have. Im just saying im openminded to all theories as long as they can be backed up by facts that are not pure guessing or man made fiction. There are mysteries out there that science have no explenation for, yet.
Praise Lilith! Hopefully someone will know the referance...
Gonna have to go with the same as fenster here, atheist. See, I believe in all of the core philosophies of most religions, such being showing everyone kindness, treating everyone equally, etc. I just find the whole being up above thing hard to believe. But, I'm not an antitheist or anything here, I have no problem with other religions. I would rant, but this isn't the place for it... so yeah.
Quote from: Legion468 on July 23, 2012, 12:18:14 PM
Praise Lilith! Hopefully someone will know the referance...
Oh dear. Ahhah
PEACE IS FOR P***IES
Quote from: Nobbert on July 23, 2012, 12:20:54 PM
Quote from: Legion468 on July 23, 2012, 12:18:14 PM
Praise Lilith! Hopefully someone will know the referance...
Oh dear. Ahhah
PEACE IS FOR P***IES
Lol Russel has the best lines
If anything, I'm a satanist.
I don't believe I should hold back my human emotions.
If I feel lust and want to have intercourse, I'm going to do it.
If I feel hatred towards someone, I'm gonna show it!
Why does a book some old man wrote, trying to tell everyone what to do, have to be something I live by? It does not.
I'm a Christian, I believe there is God and that even if you aren't a Christian (Jesus, Bible, blah blah), there is good reason to believe that a god exists.
Quote from: Kuberr on July 23, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
If anything, I'm a satanist.
I don't believe I should hold back my human emotions.
If I feel lust and want to have intercourse, I'm going to do it.
If I feel hatred towards someone, I'm gonna show it!
Why does a book some old man wrote, trying to tell everyone what to do, have to be something I live by? It does not.
Note to everyone Satanism is not the same as devils worship. If you want to know the difference check out wikipedia because i dont know the details.
Also to Kuberr, The bible is most likely the result of several hundreds years of different religous scripts and texts and composed by many different religous philosophers as the three abraham religions developed.
Just some curiosities :)
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 12:32:54 PM
I'm a Christian, I believe there is God and that even if you aren't a Christian (Jesus, Bible, blah blah), there is good reason to believe that a god exists.
Same.
But I want to make it clear that I do not have any feelings of anger towards different religons. I may not agree with what you belive but I will not object to it.
(Just Sayin')
I personally do not subscribe to any of the thousands of gods dreamt up by mankind. I am an atheist.
Quote from: Kuberr on July 23, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
If anything, I'm a satanist.
I don't believe I should hold back my human emotions.
If I feel lust and want to have intercourse, I'm going to do it.
If I feel hatred towards someone, I'm gonna show it!
Why does a book some old man wrote, trying to tell everyone what to do, have to be something I live by? It does not.
Do you believe in the existence of and worship in a being named Satan? No? Then you're probably not a Satanist.
Now that I'm on lunch I can post on this topic.
I do believe that there is a god. Does he watch over us and depending on how well we behave sent us to heaven or hell? I don't think so but I dont know. Does he even care about this planet any more if he did, or just create say that's cool then make another universe? When we die is there our own personal heaven or the shiny castle in the sky(my least like one) or just nothingness? There is literally infinite possibilties. That's why I am always open to listen to people's ideas and beliefs. For all we know the flying spegetti monster made us.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 23, 2012, 01:26:35 PM
Quote from: Kuberr on July 23, 2012, 12:25:38 PM
If anything, I'm a satanist.
I don't believe I should hold back my human emotions.
If I feel lust and want to have intercourse, I'm going to do it.
If I feel hatred towards someone, I'm gonna show it!
Why does a book some old man wrote, trying to tell everyone what to do, have to be something I live by? It does not.
Do you believe in the existence of and worship in a being named Satan? No? Then you're probably not a Satanist.
Common mistake! Although the name seemingly sugests that the worship of satan is part of this religion its not.
Devil worship is a completly different religion. Satanism is named so because it stands for in simple terms egoism and is all about yourself, wich is the opposite of christian values such as "Love thy neighbor" etc.
Not very informed about this but its pretty much what i said. Feel free to correct me :)
I'll just leave these here:
*The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins*
*A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing, by Lawrence Krauss*
Do with them as you will.
Be happy. Live in peace.
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 01:35:47 PM
Common mistake! Although the name seemingly sugests that the worship of satan is part of this religion its not.
Devil worship is a completly different religion. Satanism is named so because it stands for in simple terms egoism and is all about yourself, wich is the opposite of christian values such as "Love thy neighbor" etc.
Not very informed about this but its pretty much what i said. Feel free to correct me :)
Really? Well, if I'm mistaken then the name is very misleading. Why not just go with pure Hedonism? If it feels good, do it.
I'm not any "religion" or "denomination".
I do believe there is A god; and I am not him.
*Finding God in The Lord of the Rings*
By Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware
{Emerkul, the Creator}
Legendary Creature
If Emerkul is in your opening hand, you may begin the game with him in the battlefield. If you would draw him, exile him.
If Emerkul, the Creator would be cast somehow, the player who cast him loses the game.
If any player touches Emerkul, the Creator while he is on the battlefield, that player loses the game.
Only one copy of Emerkul, the Creator may be used in a deck.
If Emerkul, the Creator is in a deck, any player who uses that deck in a game may not muligan.
Protection from colored spells
Tap Emerkul to put a 1/1 white human token onto the battlefield under your control.
Untap Emerkul to put a 1/1 black human token unto the battlefield under your control.
15/15
Some of my friends believe in this guy ^
Quote from: BlackJester on July 23, 2012, 01:42:14 PM
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 01:35:47 PM
Common mistake! Although the name seemingly sugests that the worship of satan is part of this religion its not.
Devil worship is a completly different religion. Satanism is named so because it stands for in simple terms egoism and is all about yourself, wich is the opposite of christian values such as "Love thy neighbor" etc.
Not very informed about this but its pretty much what i said. Feel free to correct me :)
Really? Well, if I'm mistaken then the name is very misleading. Why not just go with pure Hedonism? If it feels good, do it.
Think of it as "Reverse christianity" but not exactly :)
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 01:34:20 PM
I was raised Christian. But after I moved on my own and had time to think, I realized that I doubt I would believe in the Bible if I hadn't been raised to do so. I'm sure if my parents were Muslim, I would have worshiped Allah. Jewish, I would be skimming the Torah. Each religion is certain they know the truth, with no true reason other than being born into it. By definition, it wouldn't be faith if there was evidence.
I've always felt that the divine was attributed to anything man could not explain, which is why most faiths no longer have a deity for every natural phenomena, and now simply have a creator.
And it is for that reason I'm not an atheist: I can't explain the origin of the universe. Whether it was the hand of God or a spontaneous inexplicable event, neither can be explained logically. And to be certain of either is impossible without belief.
My agnostic perspective tends to be misrepresented and always seems to incense both Christians and atheists alike, but I can't bring myself to assert that something is true without a reason why.
That's my two cents, anyway...
Agreed with everything you said. Most people that get into arguements over religion follow it blindly without an open mind to others, which 90%+ of every religion and kindergarten teaches is treat others how you want to be treated.
Love your avatar by the way.
Quote from: Xanzurth on July 23, 2012, 10:50:34 AM
The great thing about this country is you can believe what you want and act like a stupid idiot defending that belief. Most people can't talk about their belief, not religion cuz atheists and agnostics don't have one, without get uppidity and defensive. But for me who is a Christian an adult conversation with other beliefs is refreshing. Remember everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness so respect other people's beliefs as they respect yours.
Couldn't agree more. Like someone else said, no reason this can't be kept adult and respectful. I have friends of varied religions. In fact 3 members of my play group as Asatru.
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 12:14:21 PM
Quote from: Willthomjr on July 23, 2012, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 08:55:50 AM
Im an atheist until proven otherwise :)
Don't ask for someone to prove it, just leave it alone.
IBTF
No i didnt mean like that, if someone could prove anything i'd believe. But so far none have. Im just saying im openminded to all theories as long as they can be backed up by facts that are not pure guessing or man made fiction. There are mysteries out there that science have no explenation for, yet.
That is not atheism that is agnostic. Please review a belief before you pick it. Will give you a better understanding of what your suppose to belief.
Quote from: Xanzurth on July 23, 2012, 02:01:03 PM
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 12:14:21 PM
Quote from: Willthomjr on July 23, 2012, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 08:55:50 AM
Im an atheist until proven otherwise :)
Don't ask for someone to prove it, just leave it alone.
IBTF
No i didnt mean like that, if someone could prove anything i'd believe. But so far none have. Im just saying im openminded to all theories as long as they can be backed up by facts that are not pure guessing or man made fiction. There are mysteries out there that science have no explenation for, yet.
That is not atheism that is agnostic. Please review a belief before you pick it. Will give you a better understanding of what your suppose to belief.
Atheism is believing in no supernatural forces. I dont.
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 01:34:20 PM
I was raised Christian. But after I moved on my own and had time to think, I realized that I doubt I would believe in the Bible if I hadn't been raised to do so. I'm sure if my parents were Muslim, I would have worshiped Allah. Jewish, I would be skimming the Torah. Each religion is certain they know the truth, with no true reason other than being born into it. By definition, it wouldn't be faith if there was evidence.
I've always felt that the divine was attributed to anything man could not explain, which is why most faiths no longer have a deity for every natural phenomena, and now simply have a creator.
And it is for that reason I'm not an atheist: I can't explain the origin of the universe. Whether it was the hand of God or a spontaneous inexplicable event, neither can be explained logically. And to be certain of either is impossible without belief.
My agnostic perspective tends to be misrepresented and always seems to incense both Christians and atheists alike, but I can't bring myself to assert that something is true without a reason why.
That's my two cents, anyway...
I agree with you on us not knowing how the universe/multiverse was created because none of us were there. Here is where I have a problem, science and scientist alike trying to shove the big bang theory and others like down our throat as is was the "gospel" truth. If you look into it, if my memory serves me correctly they are only about 50% sure that the BBT is how this "verse" was created. Statistically to me it is an improbability that life just spontaneously sprouted on earth. I have always felt a divine present to myself and look at the world around me and see intelligent design every where. Now with that you can also see evolution every where. So in conclusion I believe God created everything and has been content to sit back and watch how his creations play out.
Atheists have come to a conclusion. Agnostics have not yet come to a conclusion and are open to ideas. Doubtful maybe of the supernatural but still looking.
Quote from: Legion468 on July 23, 2012, 12:23:54 PM
Quote from: Nobbert on July 23, 2012, 12:20:54 PM
Quote from: Legion468 on July 23, 2012, 12:18:14 PM
Praise Lilith! Hopefully someone will know the referance...
Oh dear. Ahhah
PEACE IS FOR P***IES
Lol Russel has the best lines
"oh darlin' it you that you should be worried about" omnom
Btw I am atheist, I was rose to be a catholic like my parents but I renounced my religion when I was 11, and have been ever since, I try not to push down anyone's religion but it gets really hard not to when they try to shove it down your throat, I do hate what religion is and has become, I feel it has become a tool to control people into doing stupid things, like ruining the American dream, I mean I was and still am all for abortion when used properly, properly meaning if the mother wot survive the pregnacy, the mother was raped, or the baby won't survive due to complications, and yet people are using religion to say its wrong and sinful, who are you to judge?! I'm damn sure that the bible you love to preach about say that god will judge you not his people -.- and ughhh sorry /rant gf is 8weeks and we have to get one because she was born without a thyroid and can't keep up on her pills because the egg is sucking all the nutrients out of her slowly killing her and they're are supposed to be protesters out in front of the place and she said I can't go -.-
Quote from: Elitehalo360 on July 23, 2012, 03:03:50 PM
Btw I am atheist, I was rose to be a catholic like my parents but I renounced my religion when I was 11, and have been ever since, I try not to push down anyone's religion but it gets really hard not to when they try to shove it down your throat, I do hate what religion is and has become, I feel it has become a tool to control people into doing stupid things, like ruining the American dream, I mean I was and still am all for abortion when used properly, properly meaning if the mother wot survive the pregnacy, the mother was raped, or the baby won't survive due to complications, and yet people are using religion to say its wrong and sinful, who are you to judge?! I'm damn sure that the bible you love to preach about say that god will judge you not his people -.- and ughhh sorry /rant gf is 8weeks and we have to get one because she was born without a thyroid and can't keep up on her pills because the egg is sucking all the nutrients out of her slowly killing her and they're are supposed to be protesters out in front of the place and she said I can't go -.-
Times like those it is helpful to believe in a God. Sorry you're going through that brother.
God talk reminds me of this quote from Pitch Black:
Imam: Because you do not believe in God does not mean God does not believe in - .
Riddick: Think someone could spend half their life in a slam with a horse bit in their mouth and not believe? Think he could start out in some liquor store trash bin with an umbilical cord wrapped around his neck and not believe? Got it all wrong, holy man. I absolutely believe in God... And I absolutely hate the ****er.
Not necessarily what I believe but it's an interesting take.
One long response post instead of many mini-quotes:
Quote from: JaCe BeLeReN on July 23, 2012, 01:43:21 PM
*Finding God in The Lord of the Rings*
By Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware
Is it Funny or serious? Any good?
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 01:45:54 PM
{Emerkul, the Creator}
...
Some of my friends believe in this guy ^
But does it use the Flying Spaghetti Monster pic? XD
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 01:53:13 PM
Think of it as "Reverse christianity" but not exactly :)
Even so, it requires you to at the very least
believe in the existence of a god and/or anti-god, doesn't it? Otherwise it just becomes a philosophy instead of a religion.
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 02:37:58 PM
Just to clear it up:
"atheist: one who believes that there is no god."
"agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god."
-Taken from Merriam-Webster.
I personally don't like their wordings and prefer to go back to the roots of the words:
Atheism - the a prefix means an absence of or without. So to add that to Theism = believe in the existence a deity, then you get "someone who holds no belief in the existence of a deity."
There should be a distinction between "I don't believe that a god exists." and "I believe a god does not exist."
Though they seem similar, it's akin to saying "I don't have a believe about the top card of my Library." versus "I believe the top card of my Library is NOT a land card." (Theists in this case believing that the top card is in fact a land card.)
Conventional use I think has turned Atheist into Antitheist or Non-theist, but the rules-guru in me likes correctness.
That's just me. YMMV.
Quote from: Xanzurth on July 23, 2012, 10:50:34 AM
The great thing about this country is you can believe what you want and act like a stupid idiot defending that belief. Most people can't talk about their belief, not religion cuz atheists and agnostics don't have one, without get uppidity and defensive. But for me who is a Christian an adult conversation with other beliefs is refreshing. Remember everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness so respect other people's beliefs as they respect yours.
You, are a genius. High Five! 🙏
Quote from: Elitehalo360 on July 23, 2012, 03:03:50 PM
Btw I am atheist, I was rose to be a catholic like my parents but I renounced my religion when I was 11, and have been ever since, I try not to push down anyone's religion but it gets really hard not to when they try to shove it down your throat, I do hate what religion is and has become, I feel it has become a tool to control people into doing stupid things, like ruining the American dream, I mean I was and still am all for abortion when used properly, properly meaning if the mother wot survive the pregnacy, the mother was raped, or the baby won't survive due to complications, and yet people are using religion to say its wrong and sinful, who are you to judge?! I'm damn sure that the bible you love to preach about say that god will judge you not his people -.- and ughhh sorry /rant gf is 8weeks and we have to get one because she was born without a thyroid and can't keep up on her pills because the egg is sucking all the nutrients out of her slowly killing her and they're are supposed to be protesters out in front of the place and she said I can't go -.-
I am truly sorry to hear about that.
Quote from: Elitehalo360 on July 23, 2012, 03:03:50 PM
Btw I am atheist, I was rose to be a catholic like my parents but I renounced my religion when I was 11, and have been ever since, I try not to push down anyone's religion but it gets really hard not to when they try to shove it down your throat, I do hate what religion is and has become, I feel it has become a tool to control people into doing stupid things, like ruining the American dream, I mean I was and still am all for abortion when used properly, properly meaning if the mother wot survive the pregnacy, the mother was raped, or the baby won't survive due to complications, and yet people are using religion to say its wrong and sinful, who are you to judge?! I'm damn sure that the bible you love to preach about say that god will judge you not his people -.- and ughhh sorry /rant gf is 8weeks and we have to get one because she was born without a thyroid and can't keep up on her pills because the egg is sucking all the nutrients out of her slowly killing her and they're are supposed to be protesters out in front of the place and she said I can't go -.-
I hate to hear that man. I know words can't dull the edge but you still have my condolences.
Quote from: Kareason on July 23, 2012, 04:34:12 PM
I hate to hear that man. I know words can't dull the edge but you still have my condolences.
Same. Our thoughts are with the two of you in this difficult times.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 23, 2012, 03:43:17 PM
One long response post instead of many mini-quotes:
Quote from: JaCe BeLeReN on July 23, 2012, 01:43:21 PM
*Finding God in The Lord of the Rings*
By Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware
Is it Funny or serious? Any good?
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 01:45:54 PM
{Emerkul, the Creator}
...
Some of my friends believe in this guy ^
But does it use the Flying Spaghetti Monster pic? XD
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 01:53:13 PM
Think of it as "Reverse christianity" but not exactly :)
Even so, it requires you to at the very least believe in the existence of a god and/or anti-god, doesn't it? Otherwise it just becomes a philosophy instead of a religion.
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 02:37:58 PM
Just to clear it up:
"atheist: one who believes that there is no god."
"agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god."
-Taken from Merriam-Webster.
I personally don't like their wordings and prefer to go back to the roots of the words:
Atheism - the a prefix means an absence of or without. So to add that to Theism = believe in the existence a deity, then you get "someone who holds no belief in the existence of a deity."
There should be a distinction between "I don't believe that a god exists." and "I believe a god does not exist."
Though they seem similar, it's akin to saying "I don't have a believe about the top card of my Library." versus "I believe the top card of my Library is NOT a land card." (Theists in this case believing that the top card is in fact a land card.)
Conventional use I think has turned Atheist into Antitheist or Non-theist, but the rules-guru in me likes correctness.
That's just me. YMMV.
Its alot more to satanism than what i know and can tell but if Kuberr truly is a satanist i guess he could explain :)
Otherwise just google it :P
Favorite deity quote:
"Do you believe in the devil? .... You should he believes in you!
John Constatine
What so i beliefe in ...
Me and God
I'm actually really happy with how nice this thread has gone. Next time I'm on a comp I'll try to send a round of +karma to everyone.
And I'll input: I'm a Non-denominational Christian. I believe in the Christian God, but choose not to take a side specifically. (Lutheran, Methodist, so on)
Agnosticism is a funny thing. It kinda opens a world of things you must also be agnostic to. If you just "don't know if there is a god or not" then you must also think "well I don't know if werewolves/vampires/insert monster exists"
You don't know if Thor, Superman, Spiderman or batman exist.
You don't know if there is a 500 pound elephant in the trunk of your car that disappears if you look at him.
Additionally, atheists don't "believe" there is no god as a matter of faith, they're not anti-god, but if there is no evidence for one, why believe something without any evidence?
My suspicious is atheists also don't believe in a lot of things without any evidence, a list would be endless for the amount of things people don't believe, without evidence.
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 05:57:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on July 23, 2012, 05:51:17 PM
Agnosticism is a funny thing. It kinda opens a world of things you must also be agnostic to. If you just "don't know if there is a god or not" then you must also think "well I don't know if werewolves/vampires/insert monster exists"
You don't know if Thor, Superman, Spiderman or batman exist.
You don't know if there is a 500 pound elephant in the trunk of your car that disappears if you look at him.
I'm sure if 95% of the U.S. population believed in Thor, it would be a relevant issue to discuss...
But the number of people who believe in god/Thor is based on the same amount of evidence...
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 06:04:22 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on July 23, 2012, 05:59:24 PM
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 05:57:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on July 23, 2012, 05:51:17 PM
Agnosticism is a funny thing. It kinda opens a world of things you must also be agnostic to. If you just "don't know if there is a god or not" then you must also think "well I don't know if werewolves/vampires/insert monster exists"
You don't know if Thor, Superman, Spiderman or batman exist.
You don't know if there is a 500 pound elephant in the trunk of your car that disappears if you look at him.
I'm sure if 95% of the U.S. population believed in Thor, it would be a relevant issue to discuss...
But the number of people who believe in god/Thor is based on the same amount of evidence...
True, but there's no reason to lend any credit to the Thor theory. I can't prove there is no Thor, but I can certainly doubt it. The reason I have to give a fair nod to those that believe in God is because the origin of life is impossible to explain otherwise.
So an omnipotent space man is more plausible? Who created him?
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 05:57:50 PM
I'm sure if 95% of the U.S. population believed in Thor, it would be a relevant issue to discuss...
Is this a factual statistic, or a number you made up? Neither would surprise me, I just want to be clear if we start stating things that look like facts.
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 06:06:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on July 23, 2012, 05:58:07 PM
Additionally, atheists don't "believe" there is no god as a matter of faith, they're not anti-god, but if there is no evidence for one, why believe something without any evidence?
My suspicious is atheists also don't believe in a lot of things without any evidence, a list would be endless for the amount of things people don't believe, without evidence.
Again, by definition of the English language: Atheists believe he doesn't exist. Look it up if you don't trust me. Anything otherwise is not an atheist.
It's just a name. There isn't a name for non-astronauts, non-mountain climbers. People who don't concern themselves with things lacking any evidence get called "atheist". *shrug*
Quote from: Dudecore on July 23, 2012, 06:06:32 PM
So an omnipotent space man is more plausible? Who created him?
We're entering in to turbulent waters here.
This thread is aimed at a theological role call. A "What team do you cheer for?" Let's avoid getting into "My team is better than yours!" 'cause that's the road of flamewarz.
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 06:04:22 PM
True, but there's no reason to lend any credit to the Thor theory. I can't prove there is no Thor, but I can certainly doubt it. The reason I have to give a fair nod to those that believe in God is because the origin of life is impossible to explain otherwise.
On the Origin of Species - Charles Darwin.
Impossible, i dunno about that...
Quote from: BlackJester on July 23, 2012, 06:10:43 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on July 23, 2012, 06:06:32 PM
So an omnipotent space man is more plausible? Who created him?
We're entering in to turbulent waters here.
This thread is aimed at a theological role call. A "What team do you cheer for?" Let's avoid getting into "My team is better than yours!" 'cause that's the road of flamewarz.
I agree. But it's intellectually dishonest to say "there is no way to explain it". Given the mountain of evidence to the contrary. Actual evidence. It was flame bait.
"My God has a bigger dick than your God" -George Carlin
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 05:57:50 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on July 23, 2012, 05:51:17 PM
Agnosticism is a funny thing. It kinda opens a world of things you must also be agnostic to. If you just "don't know if there is a god or not" then you must also think "well I don't know if werewolves/vampires/insert monster exists"
You don't know if Thor, Superman, Spiderman or batman exist.
You don't know if there is a 500 pound elephant in the trunk of your car that disappears if you look at him.
I'm sure if 95% of the U.S. population believed in Thor, it would be a relevant issue to discuss...
I actually have members of my play group that are Asatru (Odinism/Norse Pagan) so it is out there still.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 23, 2012, 06:15:42 PM
I agree. But it's intellectually dishonest to say "there is no way to explain it". Given the mountain of evidence to the contrary. Actual evidence. It was flame bait.
LOL
Don't you know: Don't feed the {Jungle Troll}s!
Although, what if we had a dedicated Flame thread? Okay, maybe not a flame thread, but a place where any and all who enter except the risk and we can argue and attack each others beliefs in a field of battle. What say you? Theological debate, no hard feelings?
I'm going to ignore all of this religious talk and answer the original question and say that I am a practicing Jew and proud of it.
Ok now that im off work i would like to give my thoughts on tge situation. I do not beleive in the god that the churches paint a picture of. I think the churches took releigon in a very bad direction.( my opionon) i would love to see god if hes there and if he showed him self i would make sure that he knows i regret not ever beleiving before. But that being said i remember a quote a scientist said about time travel, " if there is such thing as time travel then where are all the time travelers"? Same goes with god for me. If he exist where is he? Personally i would like to beleive that this whole world universe as a whole is all my imaganation. But that just seems impossible for other ppl think the same thing. I beleive something created us, for what reason or purpose we will probly never know. But what we do know for sure is that we are hear we can breathe and live. And theres nothing in this world that can tell us otherwise
Everyone is "atheist" to something, if it be the existence of Thor, the existence of a myriad of other things.
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 06:47:37 PM
Sorry BJ, never meant to turn it into a flame war. Just felt attacked and it kinda snowballed from there.
I'll just go back to the combo threads and rulings. My thumb is dying from tying these essays on an iPhone as it is... :)
I don't think you were starting a flame war. I just think that, in debate, it is important to distinguish between facts and reason and logic, and exaggeration and hyperbole to make a point. You made a good point, but adding a number value, even to exaggerate, makes it look like your reporting facts not opinion.
That's all.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 23, 2012, 06:12:29 PM
Quote from: Testset on July 23, 2012, 06:04:22 PM
True, but there's no reason to lend any credit to the Thor theory. I can't prove there is no Thor, but I can certainly doubt it. The reason I have to give a fair nod to those that believe in God is because the origin of life is impossible to explain otherwise.
On the Origin of Species - Charles Darwin.
Impossible, i dunno about that...
First and foremost nothing is impossible or we would not exist.
Second, Darwin never says in his book that man came from monkeys/ apes. Just that from his study on evolution that is was ONE of the possibilities to explain mans existence on earth.
That is one of most misquoted things by anti-creationists.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 23, 2012, 07:17:00 PM
Everyone is "atheist" to something, if it be the existence of Thor, the existence of a myriad of other things.
"Atheist" describes someone who has arrived at the conclusion that there is no god.
You can't say "I'm atheist to Thor." it is misuse of terms. I see what yu are saying but so it isn't confusing you should just say "everyone has something they don't believe in." ...which is true.
Quote from: Xanzurth on July 23, 2012, 07:46:42 PM
First and foremost nothing is impossible or we would not exist.
Second, Darwin never says in his book that man came from monkeys/ apes. Just that from his study on evolution that is was ONE of the possibilities to explain mans existence on earth.
That is one of most misquoted things by anti-creationists.
Give me a minute and I could probably come up with a couple impossible things. And it was mostly the work begun by Darwin and the following decades of research in the field of evolution that give a possible explanation. I was attempting to refute the idea of it being impossible to explain, which I believe is incorrect. There do exist other possible explanations.
To my defense, I never quoted anything. I just posted the title and author of a book. ;)
As a avid reader ivhave read the bible cover to cover and as with most books I believe it was meant to be taken literally. Example one: two testaments, if the book was not to be taken literally then Jesus would not have changed do much with his first coming.
Now with that said the first commandment which so many practicing Christian just browse over states: Thou shall have no Gods before me! Many theorist would have you believe this means false idols and such but that is referenced later in the commandments.
Now with that said to me even though I am a non-denominational Christian, the literal text tells me there are other Gods. So to any who have played D&D this means we have a Polytheism.
So in conclusion even though I belief in the Christian God I also believe there are other lesser gods.
So, I'm just curious to know, what are all of your reasons for believing? Still I remain atheistic instead of agnostic, but I was wondering what some of the reasons you guys believe are? I think that there are some things in the universe that mankind doesn't and never will understand, but that still doesn't make me believe that there were once talking snakes or that gays are messengers of Satan. I was very skeptical about many scientific explanations for a lot of a things when I was a kid, but the more I looked into them the more believable they seemed. This really describes a lot of my beliefs about religion: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion. And then there's the fact that religion (and not all religions when I say this) has oppressed and continue to oppress minorities to the point that some of them commit suicide. There is always the fact that many people flaunt their religions and whenever an atheist does something wrong, such as the Colorado shooter, the entire atheist population is to blame.
/rant
Sorry if I caused any trouble with this post, will remove it upon request. So guise, what are your reasons that you believe in what you do?
Your post doesn't make me angry but just so you know I don't believe gays are messengers from satan or that there were talking snakes...don't know where you got that lol
It is very hard to describe my relationship with religion. I am a man of reason and try to remain objective on every topic, you could say I attempt perfect neutrality. What keeps me on the "believer" side is a certain sense of protection. Whenever I seem to end up in a situation that could mean serious harm or death I always "miraculously" escape. When thing seem they're at their hardest, I always seem to get by. Call it a feeling of being watched over. It's to consistent to be luck and coincidences aren't this frequent.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 09:13:07 PM
Your post doesn't make me angry but just so you know I don't believe gays are messengers from satan or that there were talking snakes...don't know where you got that lol
I meant the serpent dude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(Bible)
And the gay thing was just because it seems like religion these days are strongly opposed to LGBT stuff and believe that they should die, etc.
Thanks.
That's a steriotype. Any real Christian doesn't hate gay people. That's a fact.
Quote from: 1337m00nm4n on July 23, 2012, 09:05:55 PM
So, I'm just curious to know, what are all of your reasons for believing? Still I remain atheistic instead of agnostic, but I was wondering what some of the reasons you guys believe are? I think that there are some things in the universe that mankind doesn't and never will understand, but that still doesn't make me believe that there were once talking snakes or that gays are messengers of Satan. I was very skeptical about many scientific explanations for a lot of a things when I was a kid, but the more I looked into them the more believable they seemed. This really describes a lot of my beliefs about religion: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion. And then there's the fact that religion (and not all religions when I say this) has oppressed and continue to oppress minorities to the point that some of them commit suicide. There is always the fact that many people flaunt their religions and whenever an atheist does something wrong, such as the Colorado shooter, the entire atheist population is to blame.
/rant
Sorry if I caused any trouble with this post, will remove it upon request. So guise, what are your reasons that you believe in what you do?
As a Deist I do believe there is a Creator. That does not mean I believe in the concept of "religious creationism". I actually support a mix of ID and Evolution. But back to your question, why. The short version is because I want to believe that someone/thing made our universe. That being said if "God" were proven 100% false tomorrow it would not change the wonder I hold for the universe.
PS: LMAO@comic link. Very funny and also a food summation on some of views.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 09:21:56 PM
That's a steriotype. Any real Christian doesn't hate gay people. That's a fact.
As much as I want to agree with you my entire family goes on frequent tirades about how horrible gays are....
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 09:21:56 PM
That's a steriotype. Any real Christian doesn't hate gay people. That's a fact.
I would like to think the same Coffee but sadly I grew up in the Bible Belt South and I would bet 8 of 10 of them do. Just my experinces. That being said I have always wondered about the irony of "Jesus says love everyone...except anyone who is not a Christian, gay, etc", which is the dominant mentality in this part of the US.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 09:21:56 PM
That's a steriotype. Any real Christian doesn't hate gay people. That's a fact.
Sorry. I guess the media sort of has overwhelmed me with the amount of distaste against gay people. As is the fact that many politicians are anti-gay. I was unaware that that was a stereotype until now, so thank you for clearing that up.
Do you really think someone is a Christian if they believe a person will go to hell because someone is born a certain way? Christians don't hate gays. Fakers do. Sorry if your family thinks they are Christian yet goes on marches to protest something that people can't control.
G2g I have to join my christian family on a march against blind people seeya
Christianity does not hate gays or anyone for that matter. Organized religion does. I may be wrong but the only major organized religion who openly accepts homosexuality is Buddhism.
Just wanted to clear that up.
Also on an note like I said before every has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness regardless of their beliefs.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 09:39:13 PM
Do you really think someone is a Christian if they believe a person will go to hell because someone is born a certain way? Christians don't hate gays. Fakers do. Sorry if your family thinks they are Christian yet goes on marches to protest something that people can't control.
G2g I have to join my christian family on a march against blind people seeya
Lol. No, I agree with you fully. Sadly I only speak from experiences. Many here still think it is a "choice". They also think "Not Christian" = "Devil Worshipper". I was even asked in high school to not get MtG cards out because the Alpha/Beta {Unholy Strength} had that nice flaming pentagram. I judge people on individual merit only.
Enjoy your march. :)
Quote from: Kareason on July 23, 2012, 09:47:47 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 09:39:13 PM
Do you really think someone is a Christian if they believe a person will go to hell because someone is born a certain way? Christians don't hate gays. Fakers do. Sorry if your family thinks they are Christian yet goes on marches to protest something that people can't control.
G2g I have to join my christian family on a march against blind people seeya
Lol. No, I agree with you fully. Sadly I only speak from experiences. Many here still think it is a "choice". They also think "Not Christian" = "Devil Worshipper". I was even asked in high school to not getting MtG cards out because the Alpha/Beta {Unholy Strength} had that nice flaming pentagram. I judge people on individual merit only.
Enjoy your march. :)
Lol it is funny...my friends and I played magic at my christian school a lot yet they never allowed dancing..so glad I am out of there.
Lol I go to a christian school and they have freshmen dances and all sorts of "Frivolous" stuff.
You must have had a strict school...
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 09:56:32 PM
Quote from: Kareason on July 23, 2012, 09:47:47 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 09:39:13 PM
Do you really think someone is a Christian if they believe a person will go to hell because someone is born a certain way? Christians don't hate gays. Fakers do. Sorry if your family thinks they are Christian yet goes on marches to protest something that people can't control.
G2g I have to join my christian family on a march against blind people seeya
Lol. No, I agree with you fully. Sadly I only speak from experiences. Many here still think it is a "choice". They also think "Not Christian" = "Devil Worshipper". I was even asked in high school to not getting MtG cards out because the Alpha/Beta {Unholy Strength} had that nice flaming pentagram. I judge people on individual merit only.
Enjoy your march. :)
Lol it is funny...my friends and I played magic at my christian school a lot yet they never allowed dancing..so glad I am out of there.
The school I went to was a county/public high school. They even had entries in their Student Code of Conduct that openly forbid "Satanic actions" and listed them as an expulsion worthy offense.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 23, 2012, 09:21:56 PM
That's a steriotype. Any real Christian doesn't hate gay people. That's a fact.
I meant no disrespect, I was just stating the views of my family. (gung-ho penticostal). I don't think all Christians hate gays but I know many that do.
As for your comment about marching against the blind.... I have a hereditary condition that causes severe ocular atrophy. I'm a 20/2000, legally blind, with a -13 stigmatism. My mother, brother, and nephew share this trait and so will my child. If you had known I would have taken your statement personal. :)
Lol I go to a preaching school in Alabama. Counting staff and students there are less than 50 people. 5 of us play magic, and we are considering starting our own team.
Quote from: Kareason on July 23, 2012, 09:47:47 PMMany here still think it is a "choice".
It quite clearly is, unless you can convince me that gay people have no free will and are just animals ruled by instincts. To clarify my point, catholic priests are straight or gay but they do not follow their instincts, they do not have sex. They have choice the same way as gay people have.
Quote from: Eryama on July 23, 2012, 10:22:41 PM
Lol I go to a preaching school in Alabama. Counting staff and students there are less than 50 people. 5 of us play magic, and we are considering starting our own team.
You should start it
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 07:14:40 AM
Quote from: Kareason on July 23, 2012, 09:47:47 PMMany here still think it is a "choice".
It quite clearly is, unless you can convince me that gay people have no free will and are just animals ruled by instincts. To clarify my point, catholic priests are straight or gay but they do not follow their instincts, they do not have sex. They have choice the same way as gay people have.
I do not wish to try to convince anyone either way. I do believe it is an in born trait for the majority and asking them to deny that would be no different the asking me to dye my hair because it's brown. I respect your right to have your view on it even if our views disagree.
No, it would be like denying cleptomaniacs their right to steal. The fact that they were born this way doesn't mean it's right to do it.
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 07:14:40 AM
Quote from: Kareason on July 23, 2012, 09:47:47 PMMany here still think it is a "choice".
It quite clearly is, unless you can convince me that gay people have no free will and are just animals ruled by instincts. To clarify my point, catholic priests are straight or gay but they do not follow their instincts, they do not have sex. They have choice the same way as gay people have.
Its as much of a choice as a fetish of some sort.
For the purpose of demonstration:
A straight man has a hat fetish. He'd rather be with a lady who wears hats.
Pretty simple, no?
Alas he can choose to be with a woman without a hat. But he cant choose not to want a woman with a hat.
Christians don't care about that. They care about whether gay people choose to commit sin or not. It's not a sin to be gay, it's a sin to give in to temptation. I'm astounded how often this is misunderstood.
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 08:23:34 AM
Christians don't care about that. They care about whether gay people choose to commit sin or not. It's not a sin to be gay, it's a sin to give in to temptation. I'm astounded how often this is misunderstood.
Oh im sorry i didnt really follow the subject closely i just wanted to clarify the logic.
I understand and somewhat sympathize with "christian values" in that sense.
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 08:19:12 AM
No, it would be like denying cleptomaniacs their right to steal. The fact that they were born this way doesn't mean it's right to do it.
Please allow me to clarify. I do draw the line at illegal activities or things that hurt others. What two consenting adults do in their own "personal time" does not affect me. I was raised Baptist so I understand the rational, I just disagree with it.
A book I've found very useful recently:
Mere Christianity: C.S. Lewis
Also, not as readily available, but another pretty useful resource:
The Truth Project (Video Series)
A quote (not exact)
"If there is no hope for us after death, why would we become horribly aware of this fact? For every desire man has, there is way to fulfill it. Therefore, I reason that we have a desire for hope because it exists."
@ Piotr: Well spoken. Everyone has their crosses to bear. No one is perfect, or can be, but the important thing is that we try.
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 07:14:40 AM
Quote from: Kareason on July 23, 2012, 09:47:47 PMMany here still think it is a "choice".
It quite clearly is, unless you can convince me that gay people have no free will and are just animals ruled by instincts. To clarify my point, catholic priests are straight or gay but they do not follow their instincts, they do not have sex. They have choice the same way as gay people have.
In a person to person conversation I can make a case for how free will doesn't exist, and isn't compatible with human experience and everything we know about the central nervous system.
But not conducive for a message board that I type with my iPhone.
Another atheist here!
It makes me so sad that people still believe that being gay is a choice. Google "gay hate crimes" or "gay man commits suicide" and tell me again how it's a a choice. Or tell me how you chose that you were attracted to the gender that attracts you...
The same way as I choose not to tell you what I think about your ability to understand written word.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 24, 2012, 10:09:37 AMIn a person to person conversation I can make a case for how free will doesn't exist, and isn't compatible with human experience and everything we know about the central nervous system.
And I can prove that kind of case wrong *shrug*
Quote from: Kareason on July 24, 2012, 09:05:01 AMWhat two consenting adults do in their own "personal time" does not affect me.
Couldnt agree more. Christians do not have problem with that, they have a problem with people publicly and aggressively advocating their sinful ways as norm. Whether those people are thieves, murderers, sodomites or any other kind of sinners, doesn't really matter.
Quote from: Kareason on July 24, 2012, 08:01:53 AM
I do not wish to try to convince anyone either way. I do believe it is an in born trait for the majority and asking them to deny that would be no different the asking me to dye my hair because it's brown. I respect your right to have your view on it even if our views disagree.
Until I hear of the discovery of the "Gay gene" or "gay chemical process in the brain" I still think that the answer is inconclusive. We don't know why gay people feel the way they do.
However, as agents of free will, (assuming anyone actually HAS free will) then they have control over their
behavior, just like everyone else. You can either argue that "gayness" is an internal desire/interest, or as an external action, but these are different things.
I have gay jeans.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 24, 2012, 10:09:37 AM
In a person to person conversation I can make a case for how free will doesn't exist, and isn't compatible with human experience and everything we know about the central nervous system.
But not conducive for a message board that I type with my iPhone.
IKR! The whole "Free will vs Determinism" thing has been on my mind since I was a pre-teen. Simply put, if you understand the central nervous system (CNS) then the only way for us to have actual free will is literally
psychokinesis, altering the physical world by thought alone.
Quote from: Jbombard51 on July 24, 2012, 11:43:25 AM
I have gay jeans.
I've seen a lot of people wear those. XD
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 11:46:57 AMSimply put, if you understand the central nervous system (CNS)
Well. We don't ;)
So if someone hates the taste of oranges they can just chose to like them and they will and be happy about it? Because someone can choose their sexuality shouldn't it be that easy for other things to? Sure someone can pretend to like something but it won't give them happiness
Since this is a thread a about what we believe, here's my stance on homosexuality:
It's one of the worst disabilities on earth. I say worst not because it is wrong to be born that way, but worst in the sense that it is the hardest to live that way.
I do not believe it is a sin to be gay, just as it is not a sin to have a natural inclination to say, poke people. Or steal. Or anything, really.
I do believe that it is a sin to act sexually immoral. This applies to gays and straights. Gays shouldn't engage in sexual immorality with other men, and straights shouldn't engage in sexual immorality with women.
Now here's where it gets tricky. I believe that God designed mankind in a set way, and homosexuality was not part of the perfect world be created. Frankly, I believe that he made men different from women because he wanted them to have a sexual union together.
He did not allow two males to reproduce with eachother. He did not design two females to reproduce with eachother.
I believe that a sexual union between a male and female is one of the most natural things in the world, and I believe that homosexuality is unnatural. It is without purpose.
Do I think gays should be allowed to be married? Well I am not sure yet. I am not admitting to completely understanding homosexuality and if it can be changed or not. I have heard stories of a lot of gaus changing, but I just don't know.
I have, like most people, a set of beliefs from which I base moral standards and conclusions off of. But yet, I do not have, like most people, all the answers.
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 11:51:38 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 11:46:57 AMSimply put, if you understand the central nervous system (CNS)
Well. We don't ;)
Perhaps not completely, but how about the action of neurons and action potential?
From a Christian stand-point, it's not whether or not being homosexual is a choice or not... It exists either way.
The point is if a homosexual believes in Christianity, they would try to resist this desire, and pray that they would have the strength to remain faithful to what they believe.
They may never 'change', and they may fail sometimes, but that doesn't mean they accept it as 'alright'.
Quote from: Phat Max on July 24, 2012, 12:31:44 PM
From a Christian stand-point, it's not whether or not being homosexual is a choice or not... It exists either way.
The point is if a homosexual believes in Christianity, they would try to resist this desire, and pray that they would have the strength to remain faithful to what they believe.
They may never 'change', and they may fail sometimes, but that doesn't mean they accept it as 'alright'.
But what bothers me is that it is considered "wrong." why is it wrong?
If you believe Christianity to be true, then you accept that homosexuality is a condemnable action in the eyes of God.
Christianity also believes that all fall short of the glory of God: we all deserve Hell. Whether or not you're homosexual, you are still human. :)
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 12:26:36 PM
I believe that a sexual union between a male and female is one of the most natural things in the world, and I believe that homosexuality is unnatural. It is without purpose.
Do I think gays should be allowed to be married?
A very lucid argument, thank you.
So, for homosexuality to be unnatural, we wouldn't find it in nature? Correct? I've seen male dogs hump other male dogs. Certain penguin species and I believe dolphins but I'm unsure, exhibit homosexual behavior.
Further, the proposition that the only purpose of sex is procreation and nothing of the feelings of intimacy and etc, suggests that any sexual act done without the purpose of procreation is wrong as well. Oral sex, birth control would then all fall into the same category as gay sex for the sake of your argument, would it not? For you are denying the only purpose for having sex, making babies.
To answer your question, I do think they should be allowed to be married.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 12:26:36 PM
Since this is a thread a about what we believe, here's my stance on homosexuality:
It's one of the worst disabilities on earth. I say worst not because it is wrong to be born that way, but worst in the sense that it is the hardest to live that way.
I do not believe it is a sin to be gay, just as it is not a sin to have a natural inclination to say, poke people. Or steal. Or anything, really.
I do believe that it is a sin to act sexually immoral. This applies to gays and straights. Gays shouldn't engage in sexual immorality with other men, and straights shouldn't engage in sexual immorality with women.
Now here's where it gets tricky. I believe that God designed mankind in a set way, and homosexuality was not part of the perfect world be created. Frankly, I believe that he made men different from women because he wanted them to have a sexual union together.
He did not allow two males to reproduce with eachother. He did not design two females to reproduce with eachother.
I believe that a sexual union between a male and female is one of the most natural things in the world, and I believe that homosexuality is unnatural. It is without purpose.
Do I think gays should be allowed to be married?
Well I am not sure yet. I am not admitting to completely understanding homosexuality and if it can be changed or not. I have heard stories of a lot of gaus changing, but I just don't know.
I have, like most people, a set of beliefs from which I base moral standards and conclusions off of. But yet, I do not have, like most people, all the answers.
Moved JaCe's comment out of quote.
That wasn't my comment. I just accidentally quotes coffee's whole speech. I'll delete this in a moment.
For quite some time that was exactly the case, BJ. ;)
Whether or not it's true doesn't matter, just because one person is slightly less 'sinful' than another doesn't make him a good person. ;)
Quote from: Phat Max on July 24, 2012, 12:35:57 PM
If you believe Christianity to be true, then you accept that homosexuality is a condemnable action in the eyes of God.
Christianity also believes that all fall short of the glory of God: we all deserve Hell. Whether or not you're homosexual, you are still human. :)
I would like to see a ruling on this one. Text reference? I read Genesis 18-19 and maybe I need to read further before and after, but I couldn't find explicit biblical references saying "don't put it in the pooper". more or less.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 12:26:36 PM
Do I think gays should be allowed to be married? Well I am not sure yet. I am not admitting to completely understanding homosexuality and if it can be changed or not. I have heard stories of a lot of gaus changing, but I just don't know.
But why should
religious values affect
everyone? In America, we haven't legalized "gay" marriage. Why not? Because we allow religion into the government and force that belief on other people. I think church should stay out of goverment, and stay out of people's sex lives. It's fine to speak your opinion, just don't try to legalize it.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 12:36:27 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 12:26:36 PM
I believe that a sexual union between a male and female is one of the most natural things in the world, and I believe that homosexuality is unnatural. It is without purpose.
Do I think gays should be allowed to be married?
A very lucid argument, thank you.
So, for homosexuality to be unnatural, we wouldn't find it in nature? Correct? I've seen male dogs hump other male dogs. Certain penguin species and I believe dolphins but I'm unsure, exhibit homosexual behavior.
Further, the proposition that the only purpose of sex is procreation and nothing of the feelings of intimacy and etc, suggests that any sexual act done without the purpose of procreation is wrong as well. Oral sex, birth control would then all fall into the same category as gay sex for the sake of your argument, would it not? For you are denying the only purpose for having sex, making babies.
To answer your question, I do think they should be allowed to be married.
I've also seen dogs with diseases do very odd things. I am just pointing out that just because some things do certain things, does not mean it is natural.
I may be wrong that homosexuality is unnatural. Maybe it is God's world perfected. I am not always right. But still that isn't a very convincing argument for something being natural (just because some things do it).
Also, I never said that the only purpose of sex is to reproduce. That's silly. Sex feels good and that's a fact and people like it! I am just saying male and females seem to "work" much better with eachother than with their own kind. Thus seeming more natural. Just an observation.
I don't think the church should have the right to say what is sinful they have done plenty of wrong over the years like puting to death women just because they thought they were witches then they use god to justify their actions.
Quote from: Phat Max on July 24, 2012, 12:38:49 PM
For quite some time that was exactly the case, BJ. ;)
Why do you think I brought it up? And yet, married Christian moms and dads are not persecuted for having sex with a condom, using birth control, getting vasectomies.
Is it a matter of degrees here, or an absolute? (non-rhetorical)
Quote from: JaCe BeLeReN on July 24, 2012, 12:43:55 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 12:26:36 PM
Do I think gays should be allowed to be married? Well I am not sure yet. I am not admitting to completely understanding homosexuality and if it can be changed or not. I have heard stories of a lot of gaus changing, but I just don't know.
But why should religious values affect everyone? In America, we haven't legalized "gay" marriage. Why not? Because we allow religion into the government and force that belief on other people. I think church should stay out of goverment, and stay out of people's sex lives. It's fine to speak your opinion, just don't try to legalize it.
That's why I clearly said that I don't have the answer. To make it even more clear, I do not think gays SHOULD marry eachother. That's my own belief. But I could never allow or disallow them to be married legally because my religion would interfere. If I believe something is wrong, should I believe it should be illegal?
That I do not fully know the answer to. But I do know this:
God created us with a free will to sin. He didn't make us robots. We make our own choices for good or bad. That being said, gay marriage does not effect others or harm their rights. So I guess I would lean towards it being fair that they should be able to get married in all states.
But like I said, I don't fully know. I cannot fully understand homosexuality so I am not one to decide whether they should get married
I'm Christian and I'm fully anti-gay. I agree with Coffee, it is unnatural. It really figures that my dad just left for Haiti, he could point me to all kinds of biblical stuff backing it. If need be, let me know and I will take the time and go look it all up. I have read things in the Bible against homosexuality.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 12:44:53 PM
I've also seen dogs with diseases do very odd things. I am just pointing out that just because some things do certain things, does not mean it is natural.
I may be wrong that homosexuality is unnatural. Maybe it is God's world perfected. I am not always right. But still that isn't a very convincing argument for something being natural (just because some things do it).
Also, I never said that the only purpose of sex is to reproduce. That's silly. Sex feels good and that's a fact and people like it! I am just saying male and females seem to "work" much better with eachother than with their own kind. Thus seeming more natural. Just an observation.
My argument is that EVERYTHING is natural because everything is a part of nature. Cities, Airplanes, Pokemon, all exist on the planet and nothing exists outside of nature. Nature is the iPhone you are typing on.
And I don't see why males and males or females and females don't "work" together when it comes to feeling good. Heck, samezise should work better because they are familiar with the equipment. ;D
I know you are talking about the "lock-and-key" and not "key-and-key", but you can do a lot of fun things with locks and with keys outside of the standard practice.
Quote from: Silent1236 on July 24, 2012, 01:00:08 PM
I'm Christian and I'm fully anti-gay. I agree with Coffee, it is unnatural. It really figures that my dad just left for Haiti, he could point me to all kinds of biblical stuff backing it. If need be, let me know and I will take the time and go look it all up. I have read things in the Bible against homosexuality.
Just be careful when quoting scripture. Know what the rule for realitors is? It's "Location, location, location!" The rule for scriptire is "CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT!" Always make sure you are in context.
Also be absolutely sure to study the original latin or whatever lagniage a specific verse or book was written in. Some words mean different things in the original, and different versions of the Bible are modernized in speech and thus slightly mieading sometimes.
Romans 1:26 & 27. Had to ask, my memory of verse placement is atrocious, lol.
Religious standards have found their way into society long before any of us existed. It's just the way it is.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 01:01:26 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 12:44:53 PM
I've also seen dogs with diseases do very odd things. I am just pointing out that just because some things do certain things, does not mean it is natural.
I may be wrong that homosexuality is unnatural. Maybe it is God's world perfected. I am not always right. But still that isn't a very convincing argument for something being natural (just because some things do it).
Also, I never said that the only purpose of sex is to reproduce. That's silly. Sex feels good and that's a fact and people like it! I am just saying male and females seem to "work" much better with eachother than with their own kind. Thus seeming more natural. Just an observation.
My argument is that EVERYTHING is natural because everything is a part of nature. Cities, Airplanes, Pokemon, all exist on the planet and nothing exists outside of nature. Nature is the iPhone you are typing on.
And I don't see why males and males or females and females don't "work" together when it comes to feeling good. Heck, samezise should work better because they are familiar with the equipment. ;D
I know you are talking about the "lock-and-key" and not "key-and-key", but you can do a lot of fun things with locks and with keys outside of the standard practice.
And that's where we disagree. Because of my religion I don't think of certain practices as natural, like incest, homosexuality, or dogs dry humping dogs of the same gender. I believe while some things change, some things have a natural order that is meant to be.
But hey, that's why this thread is here: to state beliefs.
If one is to get their morality from the bible, and homosexuality is sin. Then another group of sins, are also in the bible.
You should kill your neighbors for working on Sunday.
You should eradicate cities of non-believers.
You should kill your friends and family for not believing.
You should kill your children for talking back.
You should have slaves.
Now if you choose to pick and choose the morality of the bible, then you've committed a sin. The bible is the word of god. No where in the bible does it say "take these things a lessons/alagory/parabol". It is the word of god.
It's hypocritical to detest gays while not following the literal word of your god.
I find more often then not, people are disgusted by homosexual activity, and that is fine for you to be freaked out by it. But it's not ok to say its immoral, unnatural or should be outlawed.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 24, 2012, 01:18:06 PM
If one is to get their morality from the bible, and homosexuality is sin. Then another group of sins, are also in the bible.
You should kill your neighbors for working on Sunday.
You should eradicate cities of non-believers.
You should kill your friends and family for not believing.
You should kill your children for talking back.
You should have slaves.
Now if you choose to pick and choose the morality of the bible, then you've committed a sin. The bible is the word of god. No where in the bible does it say "take these things a lessons/alagory/parabol". It is the word of god.
It's hypocritical to detest gays while not following the literal word of your god.
I find more often then not, people are disgusted by homosexual activity, and that is fine for you to be freaked out by it. But it's not ok to say its immoral, unnatural or should be outlawed.
I have one word for this post: misrepresentation.
Even from the start you say Christians think homosexuality is sin. That isn't true. Christians believe that homosexual practice is a sin, not being homosexual. Being homosexual is fine just like being inclined to steal. It's hard to resist temptations and different ones are harder than others. That's what we believe.
And it never says in the Bible you should kill people for working on Sunday, etc.
Instead of misrepresenting others' beliefs, why don't you stick to representing your own.
I'd be more inclined to respond if you had the verses for those points.. But without them, it's simply a flaming post.
Anyone believe Scientology? Seems like a scam to me, but I wouldn't mind be enlightened.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 01:06:26 PM
Quote from: Silent1236 on July 24, 2012, 01:00:08 PM
I'm Christian and I'm fully anti-gay. I agree with Coffee, it is unnatural. It really figures that my dad just left for Haiti, he could point me to all kinds of biblical stuff backing it. If need be, let me know and I will take the time and go look it all up. I have read things in the Bible against homosexuality.
Just be careful when quoting scripture. Know what the rule for realitors is? It's "Location, location, location!" The rule for scriptire is "CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT!" Always make sure you are in context.
Also be absolutely sure to study the original latin or whatever lagniage a specific verse or book was written in. Some words mean different things in the original, and different versions of the Bible are modernized in speech and thus slightly mieading sometimes.
I wholeheartedly agree! I only wish that all practicing Christains would learn Latin and read the original Bible. Alas.
I have also heard that in translation it takes but a minor mistake to go from maiden - young girl, to maid - virgin. But virgin birth sounds way cooler than young girl got preggers.
Quote
If one is to get their morality from the bible, and homosexuality is sin. Then another group of sins, are also in the bible.
You should kill your neighbors for working on Sunday.
You should eradicate cities of non-believers.
You should kill your friends and family for not believing.
You should kill your children for talking back.
You should have slaves.
Now if you choose to pick and choose the morality of the bible, then you've committed a sin. The bible is the word of god. No where in the bible does it say "take these things a lessons/alagory/parabol". It is the word of god.
It's hypocritical to detest gays while not following the literal word of your god.
I find more often then not, people are disgusted by homosexual activity, and that is fine for you to be freaked out by it. But it's not ok to say its immoral, unnatural or should be outlawed.
QuoteI have one word for this post: misrepresentation.
Not hardly. I'll explain further.
QuoteEven from the start you say Christians think homosexuality is sin. That isn't true. Christians believe that homosexual practice is a sin, not being homosexual. Being homosexual is fine just like being inclined to steal. It's hard to resist temptations and different ones are harder than others. That's what we believe.
Lessons learned from the bible. Correct? My point is still valid, you're not not a believer.
QuoteAnd it never says in the Bible you should kill people for working on Sunday, etc.
How certain are we? Because I'll just source them later when I'm home. Leviticus 18:22 is the "thou shall not lay with another man", but the whole of Leviticus 18 has some pretty severe punishment for heterosexual crimes too. But non the less, we continue.
QuoteInstead of misrepresenting others' beliefs, why don't you stick to representing your own.
It's just convenient, isn't it?
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 12:26:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 11:51:38 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 11:46:57 AMSimply put, if you understand the central nervous system (CNS)
Well. We don't ;)
Perhaps not completely, but how about the action of neurons and action potential?
I wouldn't go there as you will stop at quantum level where determinism dies horrible death. But more so because it's like claiming that you understand V12s because you have seen a screw.
Quote from: Phat Max on July 24, 2012, 01:41:25 PM
I'd be more inclined to respond if you had the verses for those points.. But without them, it's simply a flaming post.
Anyone believe Scientology? Seems like a scam to me, but I wouldn't mind be enlightened.
In my personal view, which is really worthless here but I'll give it anyway, I do think it's a scam. But in a different way. I think that it's REALLY a tax scam. It was written by a guy who wanted to use religion as a guise to get tax breaks from the gov't and then vanish.
What do I know, really? Just what makes sense to me based on what I've read of Scientology. Still, if you're going to have a religious text, way to add aliens and spaceships and make it an exciting read! XD
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: Phat Max on July 24, 2012, 01:41:25 PM
I'd be more inclined to respond if you had the verses for those points.. But without them, it's simply a flaming post.
Anyone believe Scientology? Seems like a scam to me, but I wouldn't mind be enlightened.
In my personal view, which is really worthless here but I'll give it anyway, I do think it's a scam. But in a different way. I think that it's REALLY a tax scam. It was written by a guy who wanted to use religion as a guise to get tax breaks from the gov't and then vanish.
What do I know, really? Just what makes sense to me based on what I've read of Scientology. Still, if you're going to have a religious text, way to add aliens and spaceships and make it an exciting read! XD
My thoughts exactly! Only in America...
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 01:54:31 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 12:26:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 11:51:38 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 11:46:57 AMSimply put, if you understand the central nervous system (CNS)
Well. We don't ;)
Perhaps not completely, but how about the action of neurons and action potential?
I wouldn't go there as you will stop at quantum level where determinism dies horrible death. But more so because it's like claiming that you understand V12s because you have seen a screw.
So, nobody understands anything because of reductionist theory? I've seen more than just a screw, I'm a Biomedical Engineer. You don't have to know particle physics to understand that when you flick a switch, your light bulb turns on, but it helps. By your argument nobody in the field of chemistry knows anything. Nobody in the field of medicine knows anything because they don't completely understand the workings of the smallest parts of their field.
But I DO think that if free will exists at all, that it does live in the domain of quantum theory. Mainly because that's one of the stones unturned by science.
Oh, and when I'm referring to determinism, I'm referring to a closed system that is strictly governed by rules, even those we may not understand. I'm not saying (necessarily) that the universe is predictable by an omniscient observer.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 24, 2012, 01:50:15 PM
Quote
If one is to get their morality from the bible, and homosexuality is sin. Then another group of sins, are also in the bible.
You should kill your neighbors for working on Sunday.
You should eradicate cities of non-believers.
You should kill your friends and family for not believing.
You should kill your children for talking back.
You should have slaves.
Now if you choose to pick and choose the morality of the bible, then you've committed a sin. The bible is the word of god. No where in the bible does it say "take these things a lessons/alagory/parabol". It is the word of god.
It's hypocritical to detest gays while not following the literal word of your god.
I find more often then not, people are disgusted by homosexual activity, and that is fine for you to be freaked out by it. But it's not ok to say its immoral, unnatural or should be outlawed.
QuoteI have one word for this post: misrepresentation.
Not hardly. I'll explain further.
QuoteEven from the start you say Christians think homosexuality is sin. That isn't true. Christians believe that homosexual practice is a sin, not being homosexual. Being homosexual is fine just like being inclined to steal. It's hard to resist temptations and different ones are harder than others. That's what we believe.
Lessons learned from the bible. Correct? My point is still valid, you're not not a believer.
QuoteAnd it never says in the Bible you should kill people for working on Sunday, etc.
How certain are we? Because I'll just source them later when I'm home. Leviticus 18:22 is the "thou shall not lay with another man", but the whole of Leviticus 18 has some pretty severe punishment for heterosexual crimes too. But non the less, we continue.
QuoteInstead of misrepresenting others' beliefs, why don't you stick to representing your own.
It's just convenient, isn't it?
First thing...what do you mean by "you're not not a believer"? You aren't making much sense in that regard.
Also: CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT! Some of the Bible, such as laws in the old testement, do not apply. And since
a) this thread is for stating beliefs, not arguing over which is bestp
And
b) I am tired because I spent this pleasent morning throwing up
...I will definitely not argue over what in the Bible is relevant. That deserves an entire thread.
I believe that free will exists in the same domain as fractals.
I.e. we may pretend we understand gravity interactions but that doesn't stop us from not having a clue where the third one is ;)
I meant that youre not a believer. You don't follow the laws of the old testament everyday. The literal word of the creator of the universe. The god of Abraham would have a bone to pick with you.
And I concede anyway. I'll never be able to undo a millennia of Christian thinking, I'm just 1 person.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 02:16:55 PM
First thing...what do you mean by "you're not not a believer"? You aren't making much sense in that regard.
Also: CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT! Some of the Bible, such as laws in the old testement, do not apply. And since
a) this thread is for stating beliefs, not arguing over which is bestp
And
b) I am tired because I spent this pleasent morning throwing up
...I will definitely not argue over what in the Bible is relevant. That deserves an entire thread.
I'm sorry to hear that you've been ill. And I think you are right, this train is going towards flame-vile...
As I said, I am seriously considering starting a "No holds barred, MMA of theological/philosophical debate" type thread. No cry-babies allowed.
Thoughts?
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 02:23:59 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 02:16:55 PM
First thing...what do you mean by "you're not not a believer"? You aren't making much sense in that regard.
Also: CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT! Some of the Bible, such as laws in the old testement, do not apply. And since
a) this thread is for stating beliefs, not arguing over which is bestp
And
b) I am tired because I spent this pleasent morning throwing up
...I will definitely not argue over what in the Bible is relevant. That deserves an entire thread.
I'm sorry to hear that you've been ill. And I think you are right, this train is going towards flame-vile...
As I said, I am seriously considering starting a "No holds barred, MMA of theological/philosophical debate" type thread. No cry-babies allowed.
Thoughts?
That'd be up my alley. I am a hard determinist, free will is an illusion. I'd like to get into it.
I like the idea. But would it be on one subject or should people just start saying things? Lol
Well on second thought it will get to other topics no matter what.
I think we know where such a thread will lead. And I doubt any new friendships will foster afterwards.
Well this community is mature enough to handle it, I think. We had a rather large abortion debate and nobody had any hard feelings after that.
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 02:19:42 PM
I believe that free will exists in the same domain as fractals.
I.e. we may pretend we understand gravity interactions but that doesn't stop us from not having a clue where the third one is ;)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Newtonian Physics we can very accurately describe what gravity does and measure it very precisely. Even if we don't understand "How gravity works" we have a very good idea about "What gravity does".
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 02:33:59 PM
Well this community is mature enough to handle it, I think. We had a rather large abortion debate and nobody had any hard feelings after that.
Agreed. It's like Boxers don't hate each other after they step out of the ring. (maybe they do, I haven't asked every boxer in the world, it's just an analogy)
Quote from: Phat Max on July 24, 2012, 02:30:04 PM
I think we know where such a thread will lead. And I doubt any new friendships will foster afterwards.
I argue with my friends about this stuff all the time. There's no hard feelings, just good ol' debate.
Everyday neuroscience is learning something new about how our conscious brain works, and it's really amazing stuff.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 24, 2012, 02:22:53 PM
I meant that youre not a believer. You don't follow the laws of the old testament everyday. The literal word of the creator of the universe. The god of Abraham would have a bone to pick with you.
And I concede anyway. I'll never be able to undo a millennia of Christian thinking, I'm just 1 person.
OK, OK, OK gunslingers let's put the guns away and back away from the Homosexual corral.
For " bible thumpers" they jump right to the old testament to plead thier case. Well my friends since our Lord and Savior hit the scene most of the old testament became null and void. While He walked the earth Jesus stated to man love they neighbor and follow our Father's commandments. If he truly wanted us to still follow the old testament strictly he would have never saved the adulteress from being stoned. He wants use to love and respect one another and allow us to live our lives with out persecution.
Now for you homosexuality advocates. You have no right to the term marriage. It is a religious term adopted by the masses and used to refer to any union between consenting adults. Well it's not it describes a vow/ union between a man and a woman.
Now on that note everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Meaning that consenting adults should have the ability to civil union under the law (government). If they want to be happy/ unhappy legally together then more power to them. The first admendment allows for this to take place because of seperation of church and state and does not legally allow the law (government) to deny two people to have a legal union because of a single word.
I believe that religion, at the very least, was the earliest form of government. It has offered protection from internal and external threats, gave a reason to the unexplainable, comfort in grief, and many other comparisons that could be TL;DR material.
Marriage originated from religion, and religion defines it as man and woman. Ok. So our current government recognizes the religious sanctity of marriage as it should,
Whatever spectrum of LGBT you fall under, you should not try to force your beliefs onto traditional marriage as per religious beliefs, as doing so is infringing on others' beliefs. Separation of church and state is a 2 way street -- ok. So you want to legally bind yourself to another person? Do so in another way. Let's use civil union as an example. Gay or straight, this should be an alternative option for the legal purposes which married couples benefit from. This should be recognized by the government as a parallel to marriage in all legal regards.
There, that was easy.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 02:36:27 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 02:19:42 PM
I believe that free will exists in the same domain as fractals.
I.e. we may pretend we understand gravity interactions but that doesn't stop us from not having a clue where the third one is ;)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Newtonian Physics we can very accurately describe what gravity does and measure it very precisely. Even if we don't understand "How gravity works" we have a very good idea about "What gravity does".
Not at all ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-body_problem
"Let's back away from the homosexual argument"
...after my rant on homosexual marriage.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 02:15:33 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 01:54:31 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 12:26:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 11:51:38 AM
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 11:46:57 AMSimply put, if you understand the central nervous system (CNS)
Well. We don't ;)
Perhaps not completely, but how about the action of neurons and action potential?
I wouldn't go there as you will stop at quantum level where determinism dies horrible death. But more so because it's like claiming that you understand V12s because you have seen a screw.
So, nobody understands anything because of reductionist theory? I've seen more than just a screw, I'm a Biomedical Engineer. You don't have to know particle physics to understand that when you flick a switch, your light bulb turns on, but it helps. By your argument nobody in the field of chemistry knows anything. Nobody in the field of medicine knows anything because they don't completely understand the workings of the smallest parts of their field.
But I DO think that if free will exists at all, that it does live in the domain of quantum theory. Mainly because that's one of the stones unturned by science.
Oh, and when I'm referring to determinism, I'm referring to a closed system that is strictly governed by rules, even those we may not understand. I'm not saying (necessarily) that the universe is predictable by an omniscient observer.
I agree with a lot of what you are saying Jester. I hold a MS in Microbiology and a BS in Histology.
Quote from: Xanzurth on July 24, 2012, 02:51:25 PM
...
Now for you homosexuality advocates. You have no right to the term marriage. It is a religious term adopted by the masses and used to refer to any union between consenting adults. Well it's not it describes a vow/ union between a man and a woman.
Now on that note everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Meaning that consenting adults should have the ability to civil union under the law (government). If they want to be happy/ unhappy legally together then more power to them. The first admendment allows for this to take place because of seperation of church and state and does not legally allow the law (government) to deny two people to have a legal union because of a single word.
I like the idea of separating marriage from government recognized civil union. Except to clarify that "marriage is a vow/union between people as recognized by church/religion X". We should allow churches to define who they allow to marry. If Church A says "we only allow 1 man and 1 woman" fine, if church B says "we only recognize 1 man and 1 man" that's their religious prerogative and should be accepted as well.
Otherwise, I'm with you. Too bad there is little separation of church and state in most places, since the state is voted in by the religious.
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 02:53:38 PM
Not at all ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-body_problem
#badanalogy Guilty as charged. But I don't think defeating my analogy defeats my point.
Quote from: Kareason on July 24, 2012, 03:24:19 PM
I agree with a lot of what you are saying Jester. I hold a MS in Microbiology and a BS in Histology.
Thank you.
The following has both religious and philosophical implications, so I think it may have a home here:
You raise your arm. What happened, biologically?
The muscles in your shoulder and arm contracted. What made that happen?
They were stimulated by the nerve endings innervating them. What made that happen?
They received stimuli from nerves in your spine. What triggered that?
Stimuli - reaction, Stimuli - reaction........
But what made the first one fire? At what point did it go from an original pure thought (action) in your mind to a series of neural reactions leading to motion (reaction)?
I only see two options:
a) Consciousness is part of the body, and there are no biological actions. All neurons are reacting to stimuli and don't fire without reacting a potential (there may be the odd "misfire", but I don't think we can consider that "a thought", more of a hiccough.) So, we are all ultimately reacting and do not act.
b) Consciousness exists separately from the body. It is not bound by the laws of the physical universe and so is free to choose one action over another. It acts upon the biological stuff, triggering the first, or many, neural impulses required for action. The body responds and the arm is lifted.
My question is, if the latter, how? If the consciousness can manipulate the physical world, why not other things in our world? Why can't my consciousness move some electrons in my iPhone to make calls? (i can't, I've tried. ;) ) Or maybe I just need more practice.
Free will is similar to the immortal soul. Both of them need to exist preceding our need for both of them.
To put it simply, if all humans are born with an immortal soul that creates who we are, and lives on after were dead, then how biologically can such a thing exist. Do species preceeding us also have immortal souls? Do animals have souls/freewill?
What do any of these things act like without this extra attribute. What would someone without a soul/freewill act like?
How can one claim to have freewill given how much you can't actually control. Using David Hume's is-ought argument, how can anyone claim that they COULD have done something different, given what actually occurred?
Freewill only exists given your feeling (meaning the general you) that you are the true author of your own thoughts and intentions. But genetic factors, upbringing, social factors and luck make up a gigantic portion of who you actually are. I could ask "how come you're not middle-aged, balding, and bankrupted by the death of a spouse?" and in which way can you attribute freewill choices to that? (lifted from Sam Harris' "Freewill")
Quote from: Dudecore on July 24, 2012, 05:09:23 PM
How can one claim to have freewill given how much you can't actually control. Using David Hume's is-ought argument, how can anyone claim that they COULD have done something different, given what actually occurred?
Freewill only exists given your feeling (meaning the general you) that you are the true author of your own thoughts and intentions. But genetic factors, upbringing, social factors and luck make up a gigantic portion of who you actually are. I could ask "how come you're not middle-aged, balding, and bankrupted by the death of a spouse?" and in which way can you attribute freewill choices to that? (lifted from Sam Harris' "Freewill")
I SO gotta read Harris!
Very good book, and an extremely quick read. About 300 pages or so. Amazon has it for cheap. It's like a long essay.
"on being certain" by Robert burton is another great read. It's concerning lapses in reason based on what we know about neuroscience.
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 02:53:38 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 02:36:27 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 24, 2012, 02:19:42 PM
I believe that free will exists in the same domain as fractals.
I.e. we may pretend we understand gravity interactions but that doesn't stop us from not having a clue where the third one is ;)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Newtonian Physics we can very accurately describe what gravity does and measure it very precisely. Even if we don't understand "How gravity works" we have a very good idea about "What gravity does".
Not at all ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-body_problem
Just read this, and I'm not sure what your argument is? It looks as though the problem, though complex, has a solution.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 24, 2012, 05:09:23 PM
How can one claim to have freewill given how much you can't actually control. Using David Hume's is-ought argument, how can anyone claim that they COULD have done something different, given what actually occurred?
Freewill only exists given your feeling (meaning the general you) that you are the true author of your own thoughts and intentions. But genetic factors, upbringing, social factors and luck make up a gigantic portion of who you actually are. I could ask "how come you're not middle-aged, balding, and bankrupted by the death of a spouse?" and in which way can you attribute freewill choices to that? (lifted from Sam Harris' "Freewill")
Interesting take. It makes me think of the question: What is a criminal? It makes you rethink death sentances...or even prison. If most of why people do things is not under their control, should they even be punished?
Free will is a complicated subject and a vey interesting one.
I don't ever care about it. I live my life as if I can control what I do. If someone else is pulling the strings, whatever. It doesn't matter to me. Yet the funny thing is that I love to think about it.
I would make a thread about it but my upbringing is preventing me. ;) jester?
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
Interesting take. It makes me think of the question: What is a criminal? It makes you rethink death sentances...or even prison. If most of why people do things is not under their control, should they even be punished?
Free will is a complicated subject and a vey interesting one.
I don't ever care about it. I live my life as if I can control what I do. If someone else is pulling the strings, whatever. It doesn't matter to me. Yet the funny thing is that I love to think about it.
I would make a thread about it but my upbringing is preventing me. ;) jester?
Criminals should be prevented from criminal acts. There is a social imperative to protect it's members, it's behavioral and seen all over the animal kingdom, no "soul" required. Through social evolution, we recognize certain acts as harmful to the whole, and so we convey that message by discouraging them and trying to prevent them from reoccurring. Prison isn't always a good deterrent, not everyone in jail is guilty, the system has flaws, because it is operated by flawed humans. But it's what we got.
The beauty of it is, you can easily live your life without questioning free will and be happy. It's just a**holes like me who like to question: "Am I truly happy, or am I just experiencing happy inducing chemicals? Who/what am I?"
Just do what you feel in your heart to be right and true and you should, for the most part, be fine.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 05:33:17 PM
I would make a thread about it but my upbringing is preventing me. ;) jester?
Sorry, make a thread about what? What's stopping you? Are you not a "free agent of your desires"? :)
A thread about free will. And yes my upbringing and luck just don't seem to be letting me make a thread about it! (and maybe a bit of laziness ;))
Well it's important to be aware that freewill doesn't exist. While there are a number of individuals who frown upon the poor population saying "pick yourself up your bootstraps". When the real cause of such problems is a combination of different issues more then being "lazy".
On the death penalty. I am very much against it. I know everyone uses the "well what if it happened to your family?". While I might be angry, that doesn't make killing them right either. I don't believe anyone kills because "I want to", it's a combination of factors. I wouldn't have the same level of revenge if my family was trampled by elephants, or died from cholera, but in either scenario they're dead.
And on a political level, I don't like the idea of the government being able to kill people. Lifetime prision sentence is good enough.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 06:12:10 PM
A thread about free will. And yes my upbringing and luck just don't seem to be letting me make a thread about it! (and maybe a bit of laziness ;))
LOL But as a Christian, surely you must believe in free will, mustn't you? (I like using the word mustn't ;))
Completely unrelated to the current line of discussion (intentionally), but has anyone looked into any older, no-longer-practiced religions? I did a lot of reading of old Norse mythology. Now, I wouldn't follow it as a religion, but it's quite the good read. The characters and concepts are great. And much of our favorite "epic" themes trickled down from it, through hundreds of years and brilliant writers like Tolkien.
Quote from: Gorzo on July 24, 2012, 06:30:08 PM
Completely unrelated to the current line of discussion (intentionally), but has anyone looked into any older, no-longer-practiced religions? I did a lot of reading of old Norse mythology. Now, I wouldn't follow it as a religion, but it's quite the good read. The characters and concepts are great. And much of our favorite "epic" themes trickled down from it, through hundreds of years and brilliant writers like Tolkien.
According to another poster, it would seem that there are people practicing the beliefs of Norse Mythology right now.
I love learning about religions/philosophies. Took many post-secondary classes in both. Never covered ancient ones though.
Considering the amount of human and animal sacrifice, I sure hope not. It would also require regular legitimate prayer to Thor for his protection, which I am skeptical this person actually does.
My guess is he just thought it was cool and stamped himself with it. Maybe just to wear the Mjollnir amulet and justify it. I dunno, it bugs me when people pretend to be something to be "cool," even worse if they don't really understand fully what they are pretending to be.
My apologies if this person is ligitimately practicing this religion. That's fine (just don't do the sacrifices, k?)
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 06:54:47 PM
Quote from: Gorzo on July 24, 2012, 06:30:08 PM
Completely unrelated to the current line of discussion (intentionally), but has anyone looked into any older, no-longer-practiced religions? I did a lot of reading of old Norse mythology. Now, I wouldn't follow it as a religion, but it's quite the good read. The characters and concepts are great. And much of our favorite "epic" themes trickled down from it, through hundreds of years and brilliant writers like Tolkien.
According to another poster, it would seem that there are people practicing the beliefs of Norse Mythology right now.
I love learning about religions/philosophies. Took many post-secondary classes in both. Never covered ancient ones though.
That would have been me. A couple in my playgroup claim Asatru (Odinism) as their religion. They don't preform any animal sacrifice that I am aware of but I honestly couldn't say for certain what is involved.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 24, 2012, 06:21:54 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 06:12:10 PM
A thread about free will. And yes my upbringing and luck just don't seem to be letting me make a thread about it! (and maybe a bit of laziness ;))
LOL But as a Christian, surely you must believe in free will, mustn't you? (I like using the word mustn't ;))
I indeed do (although not all christians do...). However I like tossing different ideas around and typing it out enhances the experience!
Quote from: Gorzo on July 24, 2012, 06:30:08 PM
Completely unrelated to the current line of discussion (intentionally), but has anyone looked into any older, no-longer-practiced religions? I did a lot of reading of old Norse mythology. Now, I wouldn't follow it as a religion, but it's quite the good read. The characters and concepts are great. And much of our favorite "epic" themes trickled down from it, through hundreds of years and brilliant writers like Tolkien.
DUDE. I love mythology! I am currently flipping through a sort of dictionary of mythology. Basically I started on "Herecles" and whenever a new name or something popped up I flipped back to that, read it, and continued on herecles when I was done. I finished herecles and just doing that has given me a great experience and also the ability to point out all the horribly wrong things in movies like "Wrath of the Titans"! :D
Quote from: Gorzo on July 24, 2012, 06:30:08 PM
Completely unrelated to the current line of discussion (intentionally), but has anyone looked into any older, no-longer-practiced religions? I did a lot of reading of old Norse mythology. Now, I wouldn't follow it as a religion, but it's quite the good read. The characters and concepts are great. And much of our favorite "epic" themes trickled down from it, through hundreds of years and brilliant writers like Tolkien.
As I have previously posted the first commandment references mythology and the polytheism religions. So in conclusion if they didn't exist then there would be no need for the first commandment.
I believe in magic.
I believe in Harvey Dent.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 24, 2012, 08:06:18 PM
I indeed do (although not all christians do...). However I like tossing different ideas around and typing it out enhances the experience!
You just blew my mind a little. :o
How does that work? How can you believe in a soul, a divine aspect given to you by your creator, the one who gave you the ability to chose to accept him as your god or not, and still believe that you don't have free will? The cognitive dissonance is blinding me from here! Plus it's like the ultimate trump card in the Free Will vs Determinism debate: "I have free will because God gave it too me. Done."
Some Christians believe that everyone is predestined and God controls what they do.
And again, I do believe in free will. I think God made us like him in ways. We are creative just like the creator, and have the ability to make choices. God wants everyone to choose to believe in him...or at least his existence. But he let people not believe if they want, so believing actually means something. That is one thing that sets humans apart from animals. Animals follow instinct, while humans make choices. Free will means choice. If someone does not believe in free will then they do not believe in choices. You think you chose a number 14 at McDonalds?
Quote from: Dudecore on July 24, 2012, 05:09:23 PM
How can one claim to have freewill given how much you can't actually control. Using David Hume's is-ought argument, how can anyone claim that they COULD have done something different, given what actually occurred?
This argument doesn't disprove free will. It just appeals to ignorance. It says that since we are ignorant to what we could have done, we could not have done anything else. It doesn't disprove that the choices we make are actual choices; all it does is point out an obvious fact: you cannot relive life (or travel back in time).
To say someone does not have the ability to make choices on the basis that the person has already made a choice (and can't prove it by traveling back in time) does not seem like a sound argument to me.
It is impossible to accurately predict behavior of relatively simple systems. We struggle with 3-body problem let alone billions of neurons problem. We know we will never know for sure where a single electron is, let alone... There's no determinism neither in large systems (fractals which I mentioned earlier. Chaos is a fascinating thing) nor on the quantum level.
The holes of physical unpredictability left by the two alone are more than enough to give us free will. With a system so complex as a human body, the butterfly effect is enormous.
@Coffee Vampire, I get that you believe in free will, but I don't understand other Christains saying "I have a destiny created by God, so he's my puppet master and I really have no control over anything I do."
Your perspective lines up a lot better with Christianty than theirs. Meh.
@Piotr, it seems to me as though you're muddling unpredictability, incomputability, and complexity with free will. I mean, just because the math for the interaction of the motion of three bodies in space is hard, doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist or is undefined.
Also, stepping back, the behavior of larger systems is actually easier to predict to an extent due to the law of large numbers. Minor fluctuations and unpredictable motion of tiny numbers of particles is mitigated by the fact that the average behavior of many particles will converge.
Of course, I'm using those examples as a figure of speech to visualise where I'm coming from. I believe in free will and that it comes from the fact that physicality is 'undefined, unpredictable, and so on'.
People often confuse Determism with fatalism. We're not "fated" to do anything. The future is determined for us (individuals) based on our genetic makeup, circumstances, experience, societal upbringing, environment and a combination of other factors.
To put it bluntly, and more or less unsourced, 3 billion years from the big bang till now, and we're here, born in our respective geographical locations, our race, gender, social status, and general health determined for us. Our values based on our relative region in the world, our parents being who they are (also based undeniable on their parents, their life experience, ect). We truly have no control over those things, and are truly fortunate to turn out the way we have.
We owe so much of who we are to an innumerable amount of things we have no control over.
I did not choose to be born white, in America in the 21st century. But now that I am, how could I suggest it be otherwise. It just is what it is. 3 billion years from the big bang till now. How could it be different? There is no oughts, only IS.
I am not nihilistic or pessimistic. I just realize that everyone is a product of their DNA, environment, gender, upbringing and time period. In the 17th century could I have the same thoughts, upbringing, emotional mindstate, access to the information I have now, even be literate? I can't possibly profess to being any of those things, so what makes me who I am? Well...im here.
I can't have an opinion of myself in a situation where I had no control...and I still can't claim to have control.
So what. It's not like my world of choices isn't absolutely mindboggingly huge. The fact that I cannot choose to be Japanese born in 1410 doesn't limit my free will in the slightest.
Big Bang until now, 13.75 Billion years (yes reported to two decimal places). I know that fact is not really relevant to your point, but the Jester likes to keep facts straight. 😉
You forgot
*according to the current science
as it changes quite often 😉 Good story to read: Big Bang by Simon Singh (http://www.amazon.com/Big-Bang-Important-Scientific-Discovery/dp/0007152523).
I forgot
*quite often in scientific terms
as physics has mostly stagnated since the 1980s :P
Another good story to read: Trouble With Physics by Smolin (http://www.amazon.com/The-Trouble-With-Physics-Science/dp/0618551050).
The Christian god allows good people to do bad things because he gave man free will. Man's evil is a result of free will, according to Christian apologists. Heaven is a place free of evil. Therefore, I must ask: do you have free will in heaven? If so, then evil can exist in heaven, which doesn't sound heavenly. If not, then I'd have no choice over my own actions, which also doesn't sound very heavenly.
Quote from: Piotr on July 25, 2012, 10:30:01 AM
You forgot
*according to the current science
as it changes quite often 😉 Good story to read: Big Bang by Simon Singh (http://www.amazon.com/Big-Bang-Important-Scientific-Discovery/dp/0007152523).
Mayhap, but does it converge toward a more and more accurate number as more data is collected, analyzed, and tested against current knowledge? And you should assume that footnote to any documented scientific fact, so I didn't bother. ;)
Quote from: Nobbert on July 25, 2012, 10:39:03 AM
The Christian god allows good people to do bad things because he gave man free will. Man's evil is a result of free will, according to Christian apologists. Heaven is a place free of evil. Therefore, I must ask: do you have free will in heaven? If so, then evil can exist in heaven, which doesn't sound heavenly. If not, then I'd have no choice over my own actions, which also doesn't sound very heavenly.
Interesting reasoning. I think that's a good argument to think about.
Quote from: Piotr on July 25, 2012, 06:56:17 AM
So what. It's not like my world of choices isn't absolutely mindboggingly huge. The fact that I cannot choose to be Japanese born in 1410 doesn't limit my free will in the slightest.
Being born in 1410 in japan would make you a completely different person. That's essentially what I'm saying.
You are capable of having preferences, if you didn't make this App it wouldn't have made itself. Someone can even wake up tomorrow intent on bettering their lives. But someone's knowledge, desire, effort and ability will have been determined long before they perceive a choice.
If we all have free will, what's our excuse for obesity? Why should someone's free mind fail them in that regard?
Quote from: Dudecore on July 25, 2012, 11:06:00 AM
Being born in 1410 in japan would make you a completely different person. That's essentially what I'm saying.
You are capable of having preferences, if you didn't make this App it wouldn't have made itself. Someone can even wake up tomorrow intent on bettering their lives. But someone's knowledge, desire, effort and ability will have been determined long before they perceive a choice.
If we all have free will, what's our excuse for obesity? Why should someone's free mind fail them in that regard?
Having free will would mean we are CAPABLE of making bad choices, choices that may harm ourselves. Maybe millions of people are CHOOSING the tasty bacon instead of the apple or banana.
Free will is saying: I can wear either my Purple shirt or my Red shirt today. I can do either.
Determinism or Causality is saying: All the chemical reactions happening will cause me to choose Purple shirt. I can do no other.
(I chose the Purple shirt, if you're curious, but that's irrelevant ;D)
Quote from: Piotr on July 25, 2012, 10:38:26 AM
I forgot
*quite often in scientific terms
as physics has mostly stagnated since the 1980s :P
Another good story to read: Trouble With Physics by Smolin (http://www.amazon.com/The-Trouble-With-Physics-Science/dp/0618551050).
Just added to my audio book list. Thank you!
Quote from: Nobbert on July 25, 2012, 10:39:03 AM
The Christian god allows good people to do bad things because he gave man free will. Man's evil is a result of free will, according to Christian apologists. Heaven is a place free of evil. Therefore, I must ask: do you have free will in heaven? If so, then evil can exist in heaven, which doesn't sound heavenly. If not, then I'd have no choice over my own actions, which also doesn't sound very heavenly.
There are two main issues that go against that argument.
First, when we consider God and Heaven, we think of them in earthly terms. (Streets of gold, pearly gates, etc.) The Bible uses these terms to try to help our mortal minds understand something that we cannot fully understand. So to say that sin could be in heaven is speaking on mortal terms.
Second, because our mortal minds cannot comprehend the spiritual side of things, we assume that we can do whatever we want in Heaven. I believe that the power and presence of God will be so overwhelming and awesome, that we will want to do nothing more than sing His praises for eternity. While this may sound boring, and it does to me sometimes as well, this is only because our mortal minds cannot comprehend God Himself.
I'm suggesting the choice happens on the level of your brain, before you actually articulate it. No one is CHOOSING the bacon, theyre mind is simply rewarding them for eating fatty foods. Those foods just taste better.
The case of the shirts, how come you picked the one you did? Maybe you preferred the color, but why? Its the illusion of such choice that makes free will a possibility for some.
There is no such choice in deciding to have a 2nd cup of coffee. My brain simply tells me to drink it. We're creatures governed by our brain. If we had the free will you speak of, our moods, opinions, desires and actions would differ from one moment to the next. We'd be blown around by the winds of free will. We could hardly be considered "ourselves".
Quote from: Eryama on July 25, 2012, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: Nobbert on July 25, 2012, 10:39:03 AM
The Christian god allows good people to do bad things because he gave man free will. Man's evil is a result of free will, according to Christian apologists. Heaven is a place free of evil. Therefore, I must ask: do you have free will in heaven? If so, then evil can exist in heaven, which doesn't sound heavenly. If not, then I'd have no choice over my own actions, which also doesn't sound very heavenly.
There are two main issues that go against that argument.
First, when we consider God and Heaven, we think of them in earthly terms. (Streets of gold, pearly gates, etc.) The Bible uses these terms to try to help our mortal minds understand something that we cannot fully understand. So to say that sin could be in heaven is speaking on mortal terms.
Second, because our mortal minds cannot comprehend the spiritual side of things, we assume that we can do whatever we want in Heaven. I believe that the power and presence of God will be so overwhelming and awesome, that we will want to do nothing more than sing His praises for eternity. While this may sound boring, and it does to me sometimes as well, this is only because our mortal minds cannot comprehend God Himself.
That kind of sounds like a cop out to me. A big 'ol back door. How do you fight logical reasoning? Just say we can't understand it! Genius, really.
Easy, Nobbert. Easy there. We've made it 14 pages now with little to no real flaming. Let's try to maintain that.
If readers have made is this far in this thread, feel free to interrupt and role call what you believe.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 25, 2012, 01:01:40 PM
Easy, Nobbert. Easy there. We've made it 14 pages now with little to no real flaming. Let's try to maintain that.
If readers have made is this far in this thread, feel free to interrupt and role call what you believe.
I will not ever insult a person for their religious beliefs. I am merely stating my own observations. The point i was trying to make is that whenever a good logical argument is brought up, the easiest way that religion deals with things is to have some sort of cop out.
Say I claim that there is a pink elephant living in my fridge. You may think this is absurd and ask to see it. I tell you that the elephant is invisible! So you ask if you can reach out and touch it, to which I tell you our mere mortal senses cannot actually feel that it is there. It might as well be that the elephant doesn't even exist.
Quote from: Nobbert on July 25, 2012, 01:49:59 PM
I will not ever insult a person for their religious beliefs. I am merely stating my own observations. The point i was trying to make is that whenever a good logical argument is brought up, the easiest way that religion deals with things is to have some sort of cop out.
Say I claim that there is a pink elephant living in my fridge. You may think this is absurd and ask to see it. I tell you that the elephant is invisible! So you ask if you can reach out and touch it, to which I tell you our mere mortal senses cannot actually feel that it is there. It might as well be that the elephant doesn't even exist.
I know you may not have meant ill, I'm just saying the tone of a line like "Genius, really." could be read as a little mean-spirited.
I'm a Christian, but have friends that are of many religions or none at all.
Live and let live is my philosophy.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 25, 2012, 12:45:56 PM
I'm suggesting the choice happens on the level of your brain, before you actually articulate it. No one is CHOOSING the bacon, theyre mind is simply rewarding them for eating fatty foods. Those foods just taste better.
The case of the shirts, how come you picked the one you did? Maybe you preferred the color, but why? Its the illusion of such choice that makes free will a possibility for some.
There is no such choice in deciding to have a 2nd cup of coffee. My brain simply tells me to drink it. We're creatures governed by our brain. If we had the free will you speak of, our moods, opinions, desires and actions would differ from one moment to the next. We'd be blown around by the winds of free will. We could hardly be considered "ourselves".
Be careful when using a drug such as caffiene with free choice arguments. In this case you had the choice initially to consume the first, when it was a foreign substance to your body. After that is a myriad of reasons to how and why some people 'need' it and others don't.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 25, 2012, 02:04:17 PM
Quote from: Nobbert on July 25, 2012, 01:49:59 PM
I will not ever insult a person for their religious beliefs. I am merely stating my own observations. The point i was trying to make is that whenever a good logical argument is brought up, the easiest way that religion deals with things is to have some sort of cop out.
Say I claim that there is a pink elephant living in my fridge. You may think this is absurd and ask to see it. I tell you that the elephant is invisible! So you ask if you can reach out and touch it, to which I tell you our mere mortal senses cannot actually feel that it is there. It might as well be that the elephant doesn't even exist.
I know you may not have meant ill, I'm just saying the tone of a line like "Genius, really." could be read as a little mean-spirited.
I apologize if that sounded snake-like. I was truly admiring the complexity that is religious belief and its dogma. It really is a genius system.
We were asked what do we believe. But what we have come to be discussing is the Unknown. With the Unknown when any logical human stops and thinks about it, I mean really thinks about it, what states back from across the Unknown scares the "hell" out of them. Anyone who says they are not scared if the Unknown has not truly looked or possible psychotic. And maybe they reason they become psychotic is they stared into the Unknown too long.
But hey what do I know just an ape-man living on the third rock from the closes star.
Quote from: Xanzurth on July 25, 2012, 03:01:43 PM
We were asked what do we believe. But what we have come to be discussing is the Unknown. With the Unknown when any logical human stops and thinks about it, I mean really thinks about it, what states back from across the Unknown scares the "hell" out of them. Anyone who says they are not scared if the Unknown has not truly looked or possible psychotic. And maybe they reason they become psychotic is they stared into the Unknown too long.
But hey what do I know just an ape-man living on the third rock from the closes star.
I disagree. The unknown has caused many of the worst wars and massacres amongst humans. By your logic you could justify these things as Normal and not psychotic.
Fear born from passive ignorance is to be most feared.
@ Nobbert:
Christians don't just say "we will find out when we get there" and stuff like that to cover up and avoid arguments with facts and reason. They say it because of faith. God has given us the Bible, which is really all we need to live as far as where we get our morals abd how to live. We don't get a description that exactly describes heaven (and all the rules and physics in heaven, etc.) because we really don't need it. God gave us what we need for earth, and a small glimpse of what heaven will be. It's like fathering a child. You give him what he needs right now. He will learn about heaven (;)) when you think he needs to, etc. Even Evolution needs faith. You need a lot of faith to believe that somewhere (even though "where" didn't exist yet) in time (if time even existed), something (even though "things" didn't exist yet) happened that spontaniously caused the entire universe to be created, along with cells so complex that they later evolved into humans that can sit down and argue about free will.
You don't think that requires faith? I am saying in this post that Christians are not all dogmatic. True some seperate faith and reason. But I am saying that while I could argue for the existence of a god, then argue about why it has to be the god I believe in, argue about free will, evil, and all kinds of other things, SOME things, like heaven, are a mystery. And I'm ok with that.
But that doesn't mean I don't have theories of what it will be like, in case you were wondering. So here's what I think of heaven:
God is good. Evil is bad. What is evil though? I define evil as seperated from good (seperate from God). In heaven, I will be with God. Furthermore, I believe that heaven is the end of faith. I will know things that I can not even concieve right now. Which isn't hard to believe because there are a lot of things I can't concieve. Like a universe without time. Stuff like that. And even furthermore, I believe that Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. The knowledge of good and evil. Before, it's not like they were not allowed by God to WANT to sin (this is proven because they WANTED to eat from the tree, and God allowed them to); they just didn't know how.
From all this, I conclude that in heaven I will still have the free will that God made me with (I am made in his image). However, I will be in his presence, and will forget how to sin. This is not the same as not being allowed to sin. I will forget how to harm myself in any way. And I like that idea. I'm ok with forgetting. In my opinion, perfect knowledge is not complete knowledge. And in heaven I will have perfect knowledge.
That's my perception of heaven, anyways. It is just speculation, and guesses. But I just wanted to clarify that Christians are not all just dogs that blindly believe everything they are fed is holy when it's really just their own s---. Some Christians are like that, but not this one. This one, along with many others, is both faithful AND reasonable.
Be it a chemical like caffeine. Your brain is still producing testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin, and vasopressin.
I don't believe you had the "choice" to consume your first ever cup. You consumed a cup of coffee due to a myriad of factors preceding your conscious desire for a cup. A desire that originated in your brain, by your brain.
Quote from: Xanzurth on July 25, 2012, 03:01:43 PM
We were asked what do we believe. But what we have come to be discussing is the Unknown. With the Unknown when any logical human stops and thinks about it, I mean really thinks about it, what states back from across the Unknown scares the "hell" out of them. Anyone who says they are not scared if the Unknown has not truly looked or possible psychotic. And maybe they reason they become psychotic is they stared into the Unknown too long.
But hey what do I know just an ape-man living on the third rock from the closes star.
If it were known, it would move from "What do you believe?" to "What do you know?" At which point, we could be playing Trivial Pursuit. XD
As a human, I'm not scared of the Unknown, because I know so little, that pretty much describes everything. I think the Unknown holds wonder and amazement. We grown apes have made some incredible findings by diving into what we don't know and shrinking that "abyss that stares back", making it a little smaller with each smash of the LHC, each immunoassay, each measurement of our world. Maybe I'm just psychotic.
So the theatre massacre suspect of recent didn't have a choice?
The excuse of destiny, no free will , etc is only an excuse for actions born from free will, not the reason.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 25, 2012, 03:21:59 PM
Be it a chemical like caffeine. Your brain is still producing testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin, and vasopressin.
I don't believe you had the "choice" to consume your first ever cup. You consumed a cup of coffee due to a myriad of factors preceding your conscious desire for a cup. A desire that originated in your brain, by your brain.
Wait, so "an original desire" that became an action? ??? Sounds like Free Will to me.
For anyone having difficulties with the idea of a universe arising from nothing:
A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing: by Lawrence Krauss http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-There-Something-Rather/dp/145162445X (http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-There-Something-Rather/dp/145162445X)
It's an excellent read. It does get a little heavy on physics at times, but if you can handle MtG you will be fine.
As far as faith goes, I have faith in the repeatability, predictability, and self-evaluation if the scientific community as a whole. Ideas are based on repeatedly measured values, theories are tested and thoroughly questioned before they are accepted. That instills a sense of trust and faith in me.
Also, if you need God to explain how something was created, you still need to explain what created God, by the very same argument.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 25, 2012, 03:38:06 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on July 25, 2012, 03:21:59 PM
Be it a chemical like caffeine. Your brain is still producing testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin, and vasopressin.
I don't believe you had the "choice" to consume your first ever cup. You consumed a cup of coffee due to a myriad of factors preceding your conscious desire for a cup. A desire that originated in your brain, by your brain.
Wait, so "an original desire" that became an action? ??? Sounds like Free Will to me.
I can't admit that I know what your saying.
Your brain has the desire. You only say "oh I would like coffee, that is my idea, my choice." but your brain had figured out what to look at, which smells to process all nanoseconds before "you" (your conscious brain, sensory experience). You're just the mere witness to the goings on in your brain.
I'm at a difficulty to explain this without being verbal. I can only try typing the same things, different ways, so often.
Sometimes free thought makes us a higher being as a human. Some people will never ascend to this state as it's impossible to tell how we each get to it. Sociology shows us that not even 1% of the human population will ever get to abstract thought.
But then there are some who have obtained it already.
My point being that some people aren't Scientologists, BlackJester, and don't need to read a book that just talks about opinions. Sometimes, people with said abstract thought can think for themselves and come up with a rational theory.
Your "great reads" are merely someone else's thoughts.
I know you probably don't intentionally want to make yourself to seem like a Scientologist, but after continually reading page after page of this and realizing your best supporting arguments come from NOVELS, makes me wonder how truly smart you are.
Does the free medical make up for the lack of education in Canada?
Reading other peoples' opinions makes you smarter. It's good to read books, even if we don't agree with the person's opinion. In Bible class at my high school, my class studied other literature just as much as the Bible. It's important.
Also you seem way too mad and a bit offensive.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 25, 2012, 04:39:20 PM
Reading other peoples' opinions makes you smarter. It's good to read books, even if we don't agree with the person's opinion. In Bible class at my high school, my class studied other literature just as much as the Bible. It's important.
Also you seem way too mad and a bit offensive.
You miss the point.
Reading OPINION when a person has abstract thought, is counteractive. Reading FACT when a person has abstract thought makes the person come up with THEIR OWN theory. Which is way more important than re-reading someone else's thought, and coming up with the same thought.
Oh, and by no way am I mad. I'm stating FACT.
If you do not know what abstract thought is, please refer to a reliable source of the term. Wikipedia is NOT credible, and it never will be.
On another note. Knowing different religions is NOT important to everyone. Maybe to you, someone who has the faith of whatever you do. To me, who believes in scientific fact over theory, doesn't feel studying any religion is important. Because to me, it's irrelevant to the said FACT. If there were anything that could be proven true, I may swing one way a little, and might be able to do more research. Until then, it will be theory and nothing more.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 25, 2012, 11:06:00 AM
Quote from: Piotr on July 25, 2012, 06:56:17 AM
So what. It's not like my world of choices isn't absolutely mindboggingly huge. The fact that I cannot choose to be Japanese born in 1410 doesn't limit my free will in the slightest.
Being born in 1410 in japan would make you a completely different person. That's essentially what I'm saying.
(...)
If we all have free will, what's our excuse for obesity? Why should someone's free mind fail them in that regard?
I would have free will then as well, that's what I'm saying. Being who you are is part of your environment, environment in which you execute your free will.
Don't get me started on loosing weight, I have no problem loosing pounds when I decide so ;)
Quote from: BlackJester on July 25, 2012, 10:56:22 AM
Quote from: Piotr on July 25, 2012, 10:30:01 AM
You forgot
*according to the current science
as it changes quite often 😉 Good story to read: Big Bang by Simon Singh (http://www.amazon.com/Big-Bang-Important-Scientific-Discovery/dp/0007152523).
Mayhap, but does it converge toward a more and more accurate number as more data is collected, analyzed, and tested against current knowledge?
Not sure, I remember from the book there are a couple of arbitrary constants based or rather dodgy assumptions. Prove them wrong, and the number is off by serious percentage, if not completely.
Quote from: Kuberr on July 25, 2012, 04:43:02 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 25, 2012, 04:39:20 PM
Reading other peoples' opinions makes you smarter. It's good to read books, even if we don't agree with the person's opinion. In Bible class at my high school, my class studied other literature just as much as the Bible. It's important.
Also you seem way too mad and a bit offensive.
You miss the point.
Reading OPINION when a person has abstract thought, is counteractive. Reading FACT when a person has abstract thought makes the person come up with THEIR OWN theory. Which is way more important than re-reading someone else's thought, and coming up with the same thought.
Oh, and by no way am I mad. I'm stating FACT.
If you do not know what abstract thought is, please refer to a reliable source of the term. Wikipedia is NOT credible, and it never will be.
On another note. Knowing different religions is NOT important to everyone. Maybe to you, someone who has the faith of whatever you do. To me, who believes in scientific fact over theory, doesn't feel studying any religion is important. Because to me, it's irrelevant to the said FACT. If there were anything that could be proven true, I may swing one way a little, and might be able to do more research. Until then, it will be theory and nothing more.
Are you saying that reading is useless unless you are reading something like a school book that only has things in it that are proven already? I say that it's good for people to read others' opinions even if they are not proven. It helps the mind. It is good to think critically.
As for your second thought, I never said you have to study "religions" like you imply. All I said was that I don't only study one thing. No one should be confined to their own views, but learn about how others think.
And also, I do not need to prove something to come to a conclusion. It is a thought process of critical thinking and elimination, combined with facts that are proven.
And by the way I was referring to your comment about canada as mean.
(...and then Kuberr came along...)
The fact that you refer to me as a Scientologist because I make reference to science leads me to question your understanding in this area.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 25, 2012, 03:21:59 PM
Be it a chemical like caffeine. Your brain is still producing testosterone, estrogen, dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, oxytocin, and vasopressin.
I don't believe you had the "choice" to consume your first ever cup. You consumed a cup of coffee due to a myriad of factors preceding your conscious desire for a cup. A desire that originated in your brain, by your brain.
I believe I had it. My choice was affected by the environment, but it was mine.
If people were to believe as a common ideology that nothing is free will, then there would be anarchy stemming from the excuse of 'it wasn't my choice'. No one would be able to be held accountable for their actions. To me, there is more proof of free will than a scripted response to any stimuli someone may be subjected to.
Sure, there are some things that are scripted, such as the fight or flight mechanism, basic life functions such as breathing, heartbeat etc that we have no control over (in the sense of free willing yourself to not breathe and still survive). A more enlightening argument could be a debate of genetics vs environment vs education vs free will, not that there is a total absence of it.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 25, 2012, 03:33:49 PM(...) Maybe I'm just psychotic.
I think I've said it before. I'm with BJ on this one ;)
Punch Kub in the face and claim that free will doesn't exist so therefore it's not your fault ;)
Quote from: Jbombard51 on July 25, 2012, 05:27:52 PM
Punch Kub in the face and claim that free will doesn't exist so therefore it's not your fault ;)
Kuberr was not arguing about free will nor was that very appropiate :x
Anyways...about all the free will arguments:
I have a brain. It doesn't make decisions for me. It is merely the primary tool that I use to make decisions. It's like a crane. Without it bob the builder (copyright I do not own bob the builder or profit from it ;)) cannot make a building. Yet when you ask who made it, people say "bob the builder". Same thing with my brain. I need it to make decisions, but I am the one making them.
I make decisions based on my enviornment and experience. They do not determine them though.
Quote from: Jbombard51 on July 25, 2012, 05:24:55 PM
If people were to believe as a common ideology that nothing is free will, then there would be anarchy stemming from the excuse of 'it wasn't my choice'. No one would be able to be held accountable for their actions. To me, there is more proof of free will than a scripted response to any stimuli someone may be subjected to.
Sure, there are some things that are scripted, such as the fight or flight mechanism, basic life functions such as breathing, heartbeat etc that we have no control over (in the sense of free willing yourself to not breathe and still survive). A more enlightening argument could be a debate of genetics vs environment vs education vs free will, not that there is a total absence of it.
I can't type enough to show you how wrong you truly are. I feel like I typed at least an essay worth of reasons why free will doesn't exist, and isn't compatible with our knowledge of the way our brains work.
We don't kill because people "we choose not to kill people", we don't kill people because it's against everything in our genes. Some people kill others, because perhaps the potions of their brains (the medial pre-frontal cortex) that regulate that type of behavior is damaged, stunted, they could have been raped or abused as children, the lessons theyve learned in life have been poor ones, circumstances have much to do with it too.
Its the weakest of all arguments, and one that is often used against atheists. "if god isn't real, then why don't you run around killing people?". It's because it's not in me to kill people, we don't need a book to tell you that killing people is wrong.
I am tired of going in circles. I am not dodging anyone, or angry at anyone, I just can't do this anymore. I'm gonna take an extended break from the conversation. If another determinist would like to tag in for me, itd be much appreciated.
For the record, you are your brain. The way you behave and act, the things you prefer, the way you speak to people and the way you think and react to things, tht is all a result of chemical reactions between synapses in your brain. You do not have a brain, you are a brain.
Quote from: Dudecore on July 25, 2012, 05:51:19 PM
I am tired of going in circles. I am not dodging anyone, or angry at anyone, I just can't do this anymore. I'm gonna take an extended break from the conversation. If another determinist would like to tag in for me, itd be much appreciated.
I feel ya bro. Even two days of arguments is a little much for me too. Don't worry nobody thinks you are trying to get the easy way out or trying to not have to answer stuff. I may be out of this too pretty soon. I know what you mean about going in circles...
a flaw in the argument between determination/predestination and free will is you can't really PROVE one or the other.
Determinists will always say things happened they were supposed to.
And free will believers will always say a change could have been made.
Until the discovery of either a multiverse or a script which predicts every future event infallibly this argument is almost a moot point.
personally i believe in free will. i think predetermination is a weak willed man's to excuse his actions. And those who make good argument for determination are really
stronger willed than you think.
Quote from: scarsabrex on July 25, 2012, 06:12:54 PM
a flaw in the argument between determination/predestination and free will is you can't really PROVE one or the other.
Determinists will always say things happened they were supposed to.
And free will believers will always say a change could have been made.
Until the discovery of either a multiverse or a script which predicts every future event infallibly this argument is almost a moot point.
personally i believe in free will. i think predetermination is a weak willed man's to excuse his actions. And those who make good argument for determination are really
stronger willed than you think.
Exactly. Which is why everyone has been trying to find different ways to say the same things.
How am I wrong when there exists more evidence of free will than determinism? I am not ignorant of your ideals, I simply choose to believe in free will as I have seen proof of it more than the ideals of determinism.
For one example, are you calling the millions of people whom have turned themselves over to a higher power in order to help 'cure' their addiction problems wrong? Proof is that it HAS worked for millions of people worldwide, universally despite the disparity of the members of AA. It's much easier to believe in the absence of the power of will than it is to embrace and evolve from it.
As far as circles goes, yeah apparently that is happening here. Once someone believes something is true, it's impossible to change their mindset unless they 'choose' to accept the possibility of other alternative ways to think. I've always been open to new ideals and thoughts, as it is the best way I know of to grow and enlighten myself.
Quote from: BlackJester on July 25, 2012, 04:01:22 PM
For anyone having difficulties with the idea of a universe arising from nothing:
A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing: by Lawrence Krauss http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-There-Something-Rather/dp/145162445X (http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-There-Something-Rather/dp/145162445X)
It's an excellent read. It does get a little heavy on physics at times, but if you can handle MtG you will be fine.
As far as faith goes, I have faith in the repeatability, predictability, and self-evaluation if the scientific community as a whole. Ideas are based on repeatedly measured values, theories are tested and thoroughly questioned before they are accepted. That instills a sense of trust and faith in me.
Also, if you need God to explain how something was created, you still need to explain what created God, by the very same argument.
I'll pick it up at the library when I can...but until I have read it, I'll respond to the last thing you said.
God did not have a begining. He is infinite, and outside of time. In another dimension. He created humans in his image, making us also creative.
Neither a creator god being nor the cause of the big bang can be proved, but I think it makes much more sense that order came from order rather than randomness. Creativity came from creativity rather than chaos. I am fine with believing in something far larger, for more intligent, and far more infinite than what I can witness or prove.
If you say that since I need a cause for God because I need a cause for a big bang, you are missing something: they are not the same, and cannot be judged or proven by the same methods.
God, by definition, needs no begining. Yet a bang does, by definition, need a beginning (or, a cause). The big bang is a result. An occurance. God is a concious being. You cannot apply the same things to both of them as they are very different ideas. That is, unless you believe that the big bang had no beginning also, and chose when to act. In which case, you have found yourself a god of your own.
Quote from: Jbombard51 on July 25, 2012, 06:20:21 PM
How am I wrong when there exists more evidence of free will than determinism? I am not ignorant of your ideals, I simply choose to believe in free will as I have seen proof of it more than the ideals of determinism.
For one example, are you calling the millions of people whom have turned themselves over to a higher power in order to help 'cure' their addiction problems wrong? Proof is that it HAS worked for millions of people worldwide, universally despite the disparity of the members of AA. It's much easier to believe in the absence of the power of will than it is to embrace and evolve from it.
As far as circles goes, yeah apparently that is happening here. Once someone believes something is true, it's impossible to change their mindset unless they 'choose' to accept the possibility of other alternative ways to think. I've always been open to new ideals and thoughts, as it is the best way I know of to grow and enlighten myself.
I agree with you, everyone should be open minded. Now we must be careful with the term "open minded", because some people say that people are "close-minded" just because they have arrived at a conclusion. But I think you are describing actual open-mindedness: to consider others' thoughts even AFTER you have come to a conclusion.
Which is why I'm about to go pick up jester's book! ;)
Sorry everyone, I'm off to have dinner with a Catholic Priest. 🍝
Back later.
I like futurama's take on it. An arguements over creation or evolution happens the professor leaves to a barren wasteland of a planet add robots. The robots evolve. They ague over creation verses evolution. The professor tells them that he created them. Lead robot scientist leaves (she was anti creation). Professor goes back to earth and then him and the talking ape that he was argueing with come to the conclusion of creator makes->creations grow then leave->creations becomes creators->repeat.
Personally, I feel a person should not believe in an "ism". They should believe in themselves. To quote John Lennon, "I do not believe in the Beatles. I believe in myself.""
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 12:13:05 AM
Personally, I feel a person should not believe in an "ism". They should believe in themselves. To quote John Lennon, "I do not believe in the Beatles. I believe in myself.""
2 YEARS, mlerner. 2 @&$!?&@$ YEARS. Let it stay dead.
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 12:13:05 AM
Personally, I feel a person should not believe in an "ism". They should believe in themselves. To quote John Lennon, "I do not believe in the Beatles. I believe in myself.""
Personal record?
Quote from: PapaBudz on August 02, 2014, 12:36:58 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 12:13:05 AM
Personally, I feel a person should not believe in an "ism". They should believe in themselves. To quote John Lennon, "I do not believe in the Beatles. I believe in myself.""
Personal record?
No, one bump dated back to 2011.
Do you believe in love after love?
I think it's almost a challenge form learner to go back to page 150 find random thread and make remark.
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite. Plus we can't inhabit or make use of most of the universe, so it really wouldn't be fair.
I believe in some form of reincarnation, I have too many prophetic dreams to not have done this .poo. before.
Quote from: Xanzurth on July 23, 2012, 02:01:03 PM
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 12:14:21 PM
Quote from: Willthomjr on July 23, 2012, 09:29:04 AM
Quote from: Fenster on July 23, 2012, 08:55:50 AM
Im an atheist until proven otherwise :)
Don't ask for someone to prove it, just leave it alone.
IBTF
No i didnt mean like that, if someone could prove anything i'd believe. But so far none have. Im just saying im openminded to all theories as long as they can be backed up by facts that are not pure guessing or man made fiction. There are mysteries out there that science have no explenation for, yet.
That is not atheism that is agnostic. Please review a belief before you pick it. Will give you a better understanding of what your suppose to belief.
Had to put this out there: You can be an agnostic athiest. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact.
Quote from: Taysby on August 02, 2014, 12:29:08 PM
And do you have to join a group and believe what they do? Believe what you want, and if you call it the wrong thing, so what?
What's your point?
Knowledge is a subset of belief. Do you know there is a god? I do not. Atheist. Is it possible that there is a god? Yes. Agnostic atheist.
I don't do beliefs. I observe and ponder. However, the one sure thing you can believe in is yourself.
Anthonyism. I believe that I am a god.
I believe our universe is one of an infinite collective of universes. I think the Big Bang explains our start well enough for now( I hold the option to change with new evidence given). No god, but I do believe in meta physical embodiments of the fates that pre decide our destiny. Once we die in this existence we just move to the next form of existence and the cycle continues. Though I don't claim to know what the next worlds hold, we maybe energy or hell there may be a form of heaven for all I know, but this can't be the end, it's too small to not be the start of existence. Train us for the planes to come so to speak :)
Quote from: Infektor on August 02, 2014, 11:38:32 PM
I believe our universe is one of an infinite collective of universes. I think the Big Bang explains our start well enough for now( I hold the option to change with new evidence given). No god, but I do believe in meta physical embodiments of the fates that pre decide our destiny. Once we die in this existence we just move to the next form of existence and the cycle continues. Though I don't claim to know what the next worlds hold, we maybe energy or hell there may be a form of heaven for all I know, but this can't be the end, it's too small to not be the start of existence. Train us for the planes to come so to speak :)
Before I say anything else I wanna clarify a few things,
First, I'm biased like virtually everyone else.
Second, I'm a Christian (see above)
Third, I'm not intending to insult or attack you, I'm just asking some questions and giving my two cents. I'm a naturally curious person.
Onwards. I've always found the theory of infinite universes confusing and somewhat illogical. If there are infinite universes, then there are infinite universes in which the whole universe is dedicated to the irradication of you, each with various means to do so. Yet you are still here. On the flip side you might argue that there are infinite universes protecting you, but at which point does it end? The same concept can be applied to any aspect of life and I find it tears itself apart, at least in my head.
On The Big Bang, I've always considered it an interesting concept. I'm a creationist so I do disagree with it however I respect the idea as it does make sense.
You say no god, then you give a description of beings that sounds very much like gods. What's your distinction between the two and why do you believe in the beings you described instead of a god or gods? Not trying to be mean or anything, just curious.
So you believe in cross universal reincarnation? (For lack of better terms) I think that's a neat idea, I can't say I agree with it but I don't see any holes. May I ask why you believe this? You say it's to train us for the planes to come, does that mean this is the first plane?
Again, just asking questions. If you don't wish to answer them that's perfectly fine. I just enjoy deep conversation. Feel free to ask me questions and I'll do my best to answer them. :)
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 02:37:30 AM
Quote from: Infektor on August 02, 2014, 11:38:32 PM
I believe our universe is one of an infinite collective of universes. I think the Big Bang explains our start well enough for now( I hold the option to change with new evidence given). No god, but I do believe in meta physical embodiments of the fates that pre decide our destiny. Once we die in this existence we just move to the next form of existence and the cycle continues. Though I don't claim to know what the next worlds hold, we maybe energy or hell there may be a form of heaven for all I know, but this can't be the end, it's too small to not be the start of existence. Train us for the planes to come so to speak :)
Before I say anything else I wanna clarify a few things,
First, I'm biased like virtually everyone else.
Second, I'm a Christian (see above)
Third, I'm not intending to insult or attack you, I'm just asking some questions and giving my two cents. I'm a naturally curious person.
Onwards. I've always found the theory of infinite universes confusing and somewhat illogical. If there are infinite universes, then there are infinite universes in which the whole universe is dedicated to the irradication of you, each with various means to do so. Yet you are still here. On the flip side you might argue that there are infinite universes protecting you, but at which point does it end? The same concept can be applied to any aspect of life and I find it tears itself apart, at least in my head.
On The Big Bang, I've always considered it an interesting concept. I'm a creationist so I do disagree with it however I respect the idea as it does make sense.
You say no god, then you give a description of beings that sounds very much like gods. What's your distinction between the two and why do you believe in the beings you described instead of a god or gods? Not trying to be mean or anything, just curious.
So you believe in cross universal reincarnation? (For lack of better terms) I think that's a neat idea, I can't say I agree with it but I don't see any holes. May I ask why you believe this? You say it's to train us for the planes to come, does that mean this is the first plane?
Again, just asking questions. If you don't wish to answer them that's perfectly fine. I just enjoy deep conversation. Feel free to ask me questions and I'll do my best to answer them. :)
Always interested to have a civil discussion:)
Ill try to do them in order.
1. When I say infinite universes, I'm not speaking of say I'm the me in this one, and in one I'm dead. I more mean that this isn't the only level of our eternity. Afterlife, heaven, what have you, whatever it may be I just refer to it as the next planes of our existence.
2.As for the fates, yes I very much do relate them to what a god would be I guess in the Christian sense. Though I do not think they can alter or interfere in our fate, just that they over see it and end it when the time was nessicary for my timeline.
As for a cycle of reincarnation, yes I do believe we continue on. Though like i said I'm not too sure on what form that would be in (energy, spirits, physical forms, etc)
I do think we're being molded in this world for the next, and that in the next we will do so for the plane after.
I mean plane as in another level of life, after this and much like a cycle of forms of existence.
As for why? Years of soul searching, readin up on the worlds religions, both historical and modern. From all I seen, read,felt I've come to these conclusions. Though when new evidence presents itself I shape to it if I think it's true.
I have no qualms with a or any god, I've just found it doesn't suit my spiritual feeling about the universe around me.
Always happy to answer well thought out questions, and wish wellness on anyone following their own truth.
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite. Plus we can't inhabit or make use of most of the universe, so it really wouldn't be fair.
Because we cannot use all of the universe, it is not fair never have to steal? Explain your logic.
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:06:49 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite. Plus we can't inhabit or make use of most of the universe, so it really wouldn't be fair.
Because we cannot use all of the universe, it is not fair never have to steal? Explain your logic.
That's not what I meant. I meant if you gave an even amount of the universe to everybody it wouldn't be fair due to the conditions of most of he universe.
Quote from: Infektor on August 03, 2014, 03:34:36 AM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 02:37:30 AM
Quote from: Infektor on August 02, 2014, 11:38:32 PM
I believe our universe is one of an infinite collective of universes. I think the Big Bang explains our start well enough for now( I hold the option to change with new evidence given). No god, but I do believe in meta physical embodiments of the fates that pre decide our destiny. Once we die in this existence we just move to the next form of existence and the cycle continues. Though I don't claim to know what the next worlds hold, we maybe energy or hell there may be a form of heaven for all I know, but this can't be the end, it's too small to not be the start of existence. Train us for the planes to come so to speak :)
Before I say anything else I wanna clarify a few things,
First, I'm biased like virtually everyone else.
Second, I'm a Christian (see above)
Third, I'm not intending to insult or attack you, I'm just asking some questions and giving my two cents. I'm a naturally curious person.
Onwards. I've always found the theory of infinite universes confusing and somewhat illogical. If there are infinite universes, then there are infinite universes in which the whole universe is dedicated to the irradication of you, each with various means to do so. Yet you are still here. On the flip side you might argue that there are infinite universes protecting you, but at which point does it end? The same concept can be applied to any aspect of life and I find it tears itself apart, at least in my head.
On The Big Bang, I've always considered it an interesting concept. I'm a creationist so I do disagree with it however I respect the idea as it does make sense.
You say no god, then you give a description of beings that sounds very much like gods. What's your distinction between the two and why do you believe in the beings you described instead of a god or gods? Not trying to be mean or anything, just curious.
So you believe in cross universal reincarnation? (For lack of better terms) I think that's a neat idea, I can't say I agree with it but I don't see any holes. May I ask why you believe this? You say it's to train us for the planes to come, does that mean this is the first plane?
Again, just asking questions. If you don't wish to answer them that's perfectly fine. I just enjoy deep conversation. Feel free to ask me questions and I'll do my best to answer them. :)
Always interested to have a civil discussion:)
Ill try to do them in order.
1. When I say infinite universes, I'm not speaking of say I'm the me in this one, and in one I'm dead. I more mean that this isn't the only level of our eternity. Afterlife, heaven, what have you, whatever it may be I just refer to it as the next planes of our existence.
2.As for the fates, yes I very much do relate them to what a god would be I guess in the Christian sense. Though I do not think they can alter or interfere in our fate, just that they over see it and end it when the time was nessicary for my timeline.
As for a cycle of reincarnation, yes I do believe we continue on. Though like i said I'm not too sure on what form that would be in (energy, spirits, physical forms, etc)
I do think we're being molded in this world for the next, and that in the next we will do so for the plane after.
I mean plane as in another level of life, after this and much like a cycle of forms of existence.
As for why? Years of soul searching, readin up on the worlds religions, both historical and modern. From all I seen, read,felt I've come to these conclusions. Though when new evidence presents itself I shape to it if I think it's true.
I have no qualms with a or any god, I've just found it doesn't suit my spiritual feeling about the universe around me.
Always happy to answer well thought out questions, and wish wellness on anyone following their own truth.
Glad to hear it. :)
1. That makes much more sense now. Are they infinite in that there are infinite, or that you can neverendingly cycle through them? Might you end up in the same universe twice?
2. So they're basically enforcing everything? Any thoughts on were they might have come from?
I like your open mindedness. What are your opinions on Christianity?
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Could you site some evidence for the proof? True science cannot "prove" anything, as by definition one counter example can destroy any theory. I'm not saying we're gonna find a counter example to gravity, I'm just trying to keep you open minded. Last I knew the universe was finite but constantly expanding.
Second, I can't glance over that you were quite rude. Micro evolution is a theory that aligns with all currently known evidence. (Change within kinds.) Macro evolution is a different story. (Change to different kinds.) There is plenty of evidence for both Macro Evolution and Creationism. Don't discard somebody's beliefs just because of yours. Abiogenesis was a thing (and still is to an extent). You cannot rewind to the origins of the universe and watch it unfold, you can only guess by what is around you. Evolution has gone through massive revamps due to lack of evidence. It traditionally was called a long and slow process. However, do to missing links (or lack thereof), the more common theory now is that mutations were violent and rapid, between 2-3 generations. That's not to say it's the only version, it's just the one that I've seen popularized most recently.
Evolution is not an iron clad theory that only fools disagree with. Nor is Creationism. My faith causes me to be biased towards a Creationist, young earth viewpoint. It sounds like your beliefs cause you to be biased towards an Evolutionist, old earth viewpoint. Disagree with others, support your viewpoints, just be respectful doing so.
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Actually, evolution is proven fact. We have observed evolution and can prove that it has happened. The "theory" part is macro-evolution and whether or not "survival of the fittest" is the actual cause of evolution, but evolution is an observable process.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 03, 2014, 09:17:08 PM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Actually, evolution is proven fact. We have observed evolution and can prove that it has happened. The "theory" part is macro-evolution and whether or not "survival of the fittest" is the actual cause of evolution, but evolution is an observable process.
I had originally included that macro evolution part but didn't want to make the post too lengthy. Thank you for clarifying it though
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
No. Evolution is proven. It's impossible to measure an infinite amount so scientists are still uncertain.
The whole universe debate is simply, "let's argue about something we will likely never know and even more likely can't fathom."
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 08:38:30 PM
Quote from: Infektor on August 03, 2014, 03:34:36 AM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 02:37:30 AM
Quote from: Infektor on August 02, 2014, 11:38:32 PM
I believe our universe is one of an infinite collective of universes. I think the Big Bang explains our start well enough for now( I hold the option to change with new evidence given). No god, but I do believe in meta physical embodiments of the fates that pre decide our destiny. Once we die in this existence we just move to the next form of existence and the cycle continues. Though I don't claim to know what the next worlds hold, we maybe energy or hell there may be a form of heaven for all I know, but this can't be the end, it's too small to not be the start of existence. Train us for the planes to come so to speak :)
Before I say anything else I wanna clarify a few things,
First, I'm biased like virtually everyone else.
Second, I'm a Christian (see above)
Third, I'm not intending to insult or attack you, I'm just asking some questions and giving my two cents. I'm a naturally curious person.
Onwards. I've always found the theory of infinite universes confusing and somewhat illogical. If there are infinite universes, then there are infinite universes in which the whole universe is dedicated to the irradication of you, each with various means to do so. Yet you are still here. On the flip side you might argue that there are infinite universes protecting you, but at which point does it end? The same concept can be applied to any aspect of life and I find it tears itself apart, at least in my head.
On The Big Bang, I've always considered it an interesting concept. I'm a creationist so I do disagree with it however I respect the idea as it does make sense.
You say no god, then you give a description of beings that sounds very much like gods. What's your distinction between the two and why do you believe in the beings you described instead of a god or gods? Not trying to be mean or anything, just curious.
So you believe in cross universal reincarnation? (For lack of better terms) I think that's a neat idea, I can't say I agree with it but I don't see any holes. May I ask why you believe this? You say it's to train us for the planes to come, does that mean this is the first plane?
Again, just asking questions. If you don't wish to answer them that's perfectly fine. I just enjoy deep conversation. Feel free to ask me questions and I'll do my best to answer them. :)
Always interested to have a civil discussion:)
Ill try to do them in order.
1. When I say infinite universes, I'm not speaking of say I'm the me in this one, and in one I'm dead. I more mean that this isn't the only level of our eternity. Afterlife, heaven, what have you, whatever it may be I just refer to it as the next planes of our existence.
2.As for the fates, yes I very much do relate them to what a god would be I guess in the Christian sense. Though I do not think they can alter or interfere in our fate, just that they over see it and end it when the time was nessicary for my timeline.
As for a cycle of reincarnation, yes I do believe we continue on. Though like i said I'm not too sure on what form that would be in (energy, spirits, physical forms, etc)
I do think we're being molded in this world for the next, and that in the next we will do so for the plane after.
I mean plane as in another level of life, after this and much like a cycle of forms of existence.
As for why? Years of soul searching, readin up on the worlds religions, both historical and modern. From all I seen, read,felt I've come to these conclusions. Though when new evidence presents itself I shape to it if I think it's true.
I have no qualms with a or any god, I've just found it doesn't suit my spiritual feeling about the universe around me.
Always happy to answer well thought out questions, and wish wellness on anyone following their own truth.
Glad to hear it. :)
1. That makes much more sense now. Are they infinite in that there are infinite, or that you can neverendingly cycle through them? Might you end up in the same universe twice?
2. So they're basically enforcing everything? Any thoughts on were they might have come from?
I like your open mindedness. What are your opinions on Christianity?
1.going through the same universe multiple cycles is a possibility I entertain.
2. The fates as I see them are probably closest to the ancient greecian ones. Created at the beginning of time, along with the rest of existence( all planes of reality).
As for my thoughts on Christianity, I was raised in a catholic heavy house. Went to a catholic school till about middle school when I was given a choice in whether to stay in it for high school. I started drifting from it when I saw the hypocrisy of the Christians I knew. I mean no disrespect of course, everyone finds there own path, but it doesn't mean I think most or even a percentage are like my family and friends of that time. I've also met christian families that were amazing people and lived a truly good life and loved everyone, those people helped me see the unity religion can bring people. It didnt bring me back to the one god, but it brought me back from hatred of all things spiritual, which is just as important to me now. Finding some form of understanding of my reality has brought me peace.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 03, 2014, 09:17:08 PM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Actually, evolution is proven fact. We have observed evolution and can prove that it has happened. The "theory" part is macro-evolution and whether or not "survival of the fittest" is the actual cause of evolution, but evolution is an observable process.
There is a massive line between micro evolution and macro evolution. Micro evolution is deferent breeds of dogs. Macro is monkeys to man. Micro has been observed, Macro has not. Micro is generally caused by loss of genetic information, Macro requires an increase (something that, as far as I know, has never been observed).
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 11:16:18 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 03, 2014, 09:17:08 PM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Actually, evolution is proven fact. We have observed evolution and can prove that it has happened. The "theory" part is macro-evolution and whether or not "survival of the fittest" is the actual cause of evolution, but evolution is an observable process.
There is a massive line between micro evolution and macro evolution. Micro evolution is deferent breeds of dogs. Macro is monkeys to man. Micro has been observed, Macro has not. Micro is generally caused by loss of genetic information, Macro requires an increase (something that, as far as I know, has never been observed).
Its the exact same process. This is like saying, "we can observe someone baking a cookie, but when it comes to a dozen, can't happen"
First and foremost, welcome back mlerner, you dug the crap out of this one. Second, this thread was actually a hell of a good read. Now on to my beliefs, and don't make fun too bad as I have a few theories from way back.
1. I do believe in god, I am Christian with descent faith and a love for Jesus Christ and his father god himself. But, is he the ONLY god? I don't know man. Like was posted WAY earlier. It says in the bible to worship no other gods before him, if there are no others why mention it? Possibly because he knew free will will eventually "create others". I feel that there MAY be others, and it is your choice on who to choose, the one you choose will define where you go (which heaven to possibly over simplify?) when you leave your worldly vessel. As far back in time as we can see there is some form of god that man worships, all over the planet. Be it the incas, the Mayans, native Americans, Middle East, Asia. They ALL have a god they worship. What if multiple gods said ok, this is my area, that's yours, this is how I design my people, let's see who has more followers at the end of say 3 billion years, and go........
This makes me wonder on a nerd level, are we an elaborate game of sims? Or more to my example warcraft (not wow, the original Warcraft)? A game to see who has more followers. Some gods tempt with pearly gates and golden kingdoms, some tempt with 70 virgins, some with becoming a majestic animal when you transition. Idk, I pick the golden kingdom, sounds pretty cool.
Ok, feel free to tell me I'm retarded.
Quote from: Infektor on August 03, 2014, 11:03:21 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 08:38:30 PM
Quote from: Infektor on August 03, 2014, 03:34:36 AM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 02:37:30 AM
Quote from: Infektor on August 02, 2014, 11:38:32 PM
I believe our universe is one of an infinite collective of universes. I think the Big Bang explains our start well enough for now( I hold the option to change with new evidence given). No god, but I do believe in meta physical embodiments of the fates that pre decide our destiny. Once we die in this existence we just move to the next form of existence and the cycle continues. Though I don't claim to know what the next worlds hold, we maybe energy or hell there may be a form of heaven for all I know, but this can't be the end, it's too small to not be the start of existence. Train us for the planes to come so to speak :)
Before I say anything else I wanna clarify a few things,
First, I'm biased like virtually everyone else.
Second, I'm a Christian (see above)
Third, I'm not intending to insult or attack you, I'm just asking some questions and giving my two cents. I'm a naturally curious person.
Onwards. I've always found the theory of infinite universes confusing and somewhat illogical. If there are infinite universes, then there are infinite universes in which the whole universe is dedicated to the irradication of you, each with various means to do so. Yet you are still here. On the flip side you might argue that there are infinite universes protecting you, but at which point does it end? The same concept can be applied to any aspect of life and I find it tears itself apart, at least in my head.
On The Big Bang, I've always considered it an interesting concept. I'm a creationist so I do disagree with it however I respect the idea as it does make sense.
You say no god, then you give a description of beings that sounds very much like gods. What's your distinction between the two and why do you believe in the beings you described instead of a god or gods? Not trying to be mean or anything, just curious.
So you believe in cross universal reincarnation? (For lack of better terms) I think that's a neat idea, I can't say I agree with it but I don't see any holes. May I ask why you believe this? You say it's to train us for the planes to come, does that mean this is the first plane?
Again, just asking questions. If you don't wish to answer them that's perfectly fine. I just enjoy deep conversation. Feel free to ask me questions and I'll do my best to answer them. :)
Always interested to have a civil discussion:)
Ill try to do them in order.
1. When I say infinite universes, I'm not speaking of say I'm the me in this one, and in one I'm dead. I more mean that this isn't the only level of our eternity. Afterlife, heaven, what have you, whatever it may be I just refer to it as the next planes of our existence.
2.As for the fates, yes I very much do relate them to what a god would be I guess in the Christian sense. Though I do not think they can alter or interfere in our fate, just that they over see it and end it when the time was nessicary for my timeline.
As for a cycle of reincarnation, yes I do believe we continue on. Though like i said I'm not too sure on what form that would be in (energy, spirits, physical forms, etc)
I do think we're being molded in this world for the next, and that in the next we will do so for the plane after.
I mean plane as in another level of life, after this and much like a cycle of forms of existence.
As for why? Years of soul searching, readin up on the worlds religions, both historical and modern. From all I seen, read,felt I've come to these conclusions. Though when new evidence presents itself I shape to it if I think it's true.
I have no qualms with a or any god, I've just found it doesn't suit my spiritual feeling about the universe around me.
Always happy to answer well thought out questions, and wish wellness on anyone following their own truth.
Glad to hear it. :)
1. That makes much more sense now. Are they infinite in that there are infinite, or that you can neverendingly cycle through them? Might you end up in the same universe twice?
2. So they're basically enforcing everything? Any thoughts on were they might have come from?
I like your open mindedness. What are your opinions on Christianity?
1.going through the same universe multiple cycles is a possibility I entertain.
2. The fates as I see them are probably closest to the ancient greecian ones. Created at the beginning of time, along with the rest of existence( all planes of reality).
As for my thoughts on Christianity, I was raised in a catholic heavy house. Went to a catholic school till about middle school when I was given a choice in whether to stay in it for high school. I started drifting from it when I saw the hypocrisy of the Christians I knew. I mean no disrespect of course, everyone finds there own path, but it doesn't mean I think most or even a percentage are like my family and friends of that time. I've also met christian families that were amazing people and lived a truly good life and loved everyone, those people helped me see the unity religion can bring people. It didnt bring me back to the one god, but it brought me back from hatred of all things spiritual, which is just as important to me now. Finding some form of understanding of my reality has brought me peace.
1. I truly think that's a neat idea.
2. So the fates can see/travel between planes? Or is there one per plane or some other such thing?
I haven't had much experience with the Catholic denomination. The hypocrisy of humans in general is quite appalling. I know I've been guilty to an extent. But one of the fundamental concepts of Christianity is that we are not perfect, so we need God. I'm glad you've witnessed some of the people that show the other side. They're refreshing. I find your worldview unique and interesting. I'm glad I have the chance to talk to you about it.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 11:24:11 PM
Quote from: Infektor on August 03, 2014, 11:03:21 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 08:38:30 PM
Quote from: Infektor on August 03, 2014, 03:34:36 AM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 02:37:30 AM
Quote from: Infektor on August 02, 2014, 11:38:32 PM
I believe our universe is one of an infinite collective of universes. I think the Big Bang explains our start well enough for now( I hold the option to change with new evidence given). No god, but I do believe in meta physical embodiments of the fates that pre decide our destiny. Once we die in this existence we just move to the next form of existence and the cycle continues. Though I don't claim to know what the next worlds hold, we maybe energy or hell there may be a form of heaven for all I know, but this can't be the end, it's too small to not be the start of existence. Train us for the planes to come so to speak :)
Before I say anything else I wanna clarify a few things,
First, I'm biased like virtually everyone else.
Second, I'm a Christian (see above)
Third, I'm not intending to insult or attack you, I'm just asking some questions and giving my two cents. I'm a naturally curious person.
Onwards. I've always found the theory of infinite universes confusing and somewhat illogical. If there are infinite universes, then there are infinite universes in which the whole universe is dedicated to the irradication of you, each with various means to do so. Yet you are still here. On the flip side you might argue that there are infinite universes protecting you, but at which point does it end? The same concept can be applied to any aspect of life and I find it tears itself apart, at least in my head.
On The Big Bang, I've always considered it an interesting concept. I'm a creationist so I do disagree with it however I respect the idea as it does make sense.
You say no god, then you give a description of beings that sounds very much like gods. What's your distinction between the two and why do you believe in the beings you described instead of a god or gods? Not trying to be mean or anything, just curious.
So you believe in cross universal reincarnation? (For lack of better terms) I think that's a neat idea, I can't say I agree with it but I don't see any holes. May I ask why you believe this? You say it's to train us for the planes to come, does that mean this is the first plane?
Again, just asking questions. If you don't wish to answer them that's perfectly fine. I just enjoy deep conversation. Feel free to ask me questions and I'll do my best to answer them. :)
Always interested to have a civil discussion:)
Ill try to do them in order.
1. When I say infinite universes, I'm not speaking of say I'm the me in this one, and in one I'm dead. I more mean that this isn't the only level of our eternity. Afterlife, heaven, what have you, whatever it may be I just refer to it as the next planes of our existence.
2.As for the fates, yes I very much do relate them to what a god would be I guess in the Christian sense. Though I do not think they can alter or interfere in our fate, just that they over see it and end it when the time was nessicary for my timeline.
As for a cycle of reincarnation, yes I do believe we continue on. Though like i said I'm not too sure on what form that would be in (energy, spirits, physical forms, etc)
I do think we're being molded in this world for the next, and that in the next we will do so for the plane after.
I mean plane as in another level of life, after this and much like a cycle of forms of existence.
As for why? Years of soul searching, readin up on the worlds religions, both historical and modern. From all I seen, read,felt I've come to these conclusions. Though when new evidence presents itself I shape to it if I think it's true.
I have no qualms with a or any god, I've just found it doesn't suit my spiritual feeling about the universe around me.
Always happy to answer well thought out questions, and wish wellness on anyone following their own truth.
Glad to hear it. :)
1. That makes much more sense now. Are they infinite in that there are infinite, or that you can neverendingly cycle through them? Might you end up in the same universe twice?
2. So they're basically enforcing everything? Any thoughts on were they might have come from?
I like your open mindedness. What are your opinions on Christianity?
1.going through the same universe multiple cycles is a possibility I entertain.
2. The fates as I see them are probably closest to the ancient greecian ones. Created at the beginning of time, along with the rest of existence( all planes of reality).
As for my thoughts on Christianity, I was raised in a catholic heavy house. Went to a catholic school till about middle school when I was given a choice in whether to stay in it for high school. I started drifting from it when I saw the hypocrisy of the Christians I knew. I mean no disrespect of course, everyone finds there own path, but it doesn't mean I think most or even a percentage are like my family and friends of that time. I've also met christian families that were amazing people and lived a truly good life and loved everyone, those people helped me see the unity religion can bring people. It didnt bring me back to the one god, but it brought me back from hatred of all things spiritual, which is just as important to me now. Finding some form of understanding of my reality has brought me peace.
1. I truly think that's a neat idea.
2. So the fates can see/travel between planes? Or is there one per plane or some other such thing?
I haven't had much experience with the Catholic denomination. The hypocrisy of humans in general is quite appalling. I know I've been guilty to an extent. But one of the fundamental concepts of Christianity is that we are not perfect, so we need God. I'm glad you've witnessed some of the people that show the other side. They're refreshing. I find your worldview unique and interesting. I'm glad I have the chance to talk to you about it.
As for the fates I believe it's much like they oversee all the planes and cycles, and there more of a creation of existence to keep itself in balance.
I love learning about religion since I've become a more open person, and welcome any and all questions. Your also a kind spirit for having the curiosity to ask things beyond what some in your same shoes would condem.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 03, 2014, 11:20:55 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 03, 2014, 11:16:18 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 03, 2014, 09:17:08 PM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Actually, evolution is proven fact. We have observed evolution and can prove that it has happened. The "theory" part is macro-evolution and whether or not "survival of the fittest" is the actual cause of evolution, but evolution is an observable process.
There is a massive line between micro evolution and macro evolution. Micro evolution is deferent breeds of dogs. Macro is monkeys to man. Micro has been observed, Macro has not. Micro is generally caused by loss of genetic information, Macro requires an increase (something that, as far as I know, has never been observed).
Its the exact same process. This is like saying, "we can observe someone baking a cookie, but when it comes to a dozen, can't happen"
There's a massive difference between breeds of dogs and monkeys to man. I mentioned adding genetic material, that's fundamental to macro evolution. Yet as far as I know it's unobserved. By genetics there is a massive difference. A one celled organism going through multiple mutations and generations to eventually produce man is very different. Genetics also hasn't produced much pro evolution information that I've seen so far.
So no, it's not like saying baking a dozen cookies is impossible. It's like saying producing a TV from those same ingredients is highly questionable.
Quote from: Taysby on August 03, 2014, 11:51:30 PM
Animals evolve traits to better survive, yes? Macro evolution is that over millions of years.
This
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 03, 2014, 11:56:24 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 03, 2014, 11:51:30 PM
Animals evolve traits to better survive, yes? Macro evolution is that over millions of years.
This
Yes, but the traits we have seen are from a decrease in information, not an increase. We have also never seen something change kinds. Adaptability isn't evolution. You can change all sorts if things on your car, it's still a car, and it's probably a Honda Civic. (Bad joke but tries to make the point.) At no point in carving something is something added, you're just changing the shape that was already there. (Not joke still tries to make point.)
My point is that micro evolution is not concrete evidence for macro evolution. The distinction is there for a reason.
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Evolution is proven by mathematical evolutionary algorithms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 04, 2014, 02:36:13 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 03, 2014, 11:56:24 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 03, 2014, 11:51:30 PM
Animals evolve traits to better survive, yes? Macro evolution is that over millions of years.
This
Yes, but the traits we have seen are from a decrease in information, not an increase.
I call a lie on this.
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Evolution is proven by mathematical evolutionary algorithms.
Technically, they're all theories. Gravity is a theory. But you don't see people floating off sidewalks.
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:29:35 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Evolution is proven by mathematical evolutionary algorithms.
Technically, they're all theories. Gravity is a theory. But you don't see people floating off sidewalks.
I call a lie on this one. Gravity is a law.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistry101/a/lawtheory.htm
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:30:15 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:29:35 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Evolution is proven by mathematical evolutionary algorithms.
Technically, they're all theories. Gravity is a theory. But you don't see people floating off sidewalks.
I call a lie on this one. Gravity is a law.
I call a lie on your lie. They're all technically theories, because there may always be something else. Scientists know this.
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:30:15 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:29:35 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Evolution is proven by mathematical evolutionary algorithms.
Technically, they're all theories. Gravity is a theory. But you don't see people floating off sidewalks.
I call a lie on this one. Gravity is a law.
I call a lie on your lie. They're all technically theories, because there may always be something else. Scientists know this.
I'm afraid I'll have to ban you for 10 days in this case ;)
http://chemistry.about.com/od/lecturenotesl3/a/sciencemethod.htm
Oh great.
Technically, the issue is still being discussed.
http://onswipe.com/thedailygalaxy/#!/entry/our-understanding-of-gravity-is-fundamentally-wrong-two-conflicting-theories,5277d19a025312186c78fc66
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:51:33 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:30:15 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:29:35 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Evolution is proven by mathematical evolutionary algorithms.
Technically, they're all theories. Gravity is a theory. But you don't see people floating off sidewalks.
I call a lie on this one. Gravity is a law.
I call a lie on your lie. They're all technically theories, because there may always be something else. Scientists know this.
I'm afraid I'll have to ban you for 10 days in this case ;)
http://chemistry.about.com/od/lecturenotesl3/a/sciencemethod.htm
I'm afraid that is against iMtG law ;)
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 08:32:26 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:51:33 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:30:15 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:29:35 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Evolution is proven by mathematical evolutionary algorithms.
Technically, they're all theories. Gravity is a theory. But you don't see people floating off sidewalks.
I call a lie on this one. Gravity is a law.
I call a lie on your lie. They're all technically theories, because there may always be something else. Scientists know this.
I'm afraid I'll have to ban you for 10 days in this case ;)
http://chemistry.about.com/od/lecturenotesl3/a/sciencemethod.htm
I'm afraid that is against iMtG law ;)
It would not be, but I decided to forgive you this time ;)
Quote from: Sardok on August 04, 2014, 08:22:55 AM
Technically, the issue is still being discussed.
http://onswipe.com/thedailygalaxy/#!/entry/our-understanding-of-gravity-is-fundamentally-wrong-two-conflicting-theories,5277d19a025312186c78fc66
As far as scientific method goes, it is not being discussed at all, the same as with evolution.
Gravity is a law, but you are confused because there are different theories explaining why there is gravity. Gravity is still a law of reality and part of 'logic' on which iMtG Law is based upon.
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 08:50:41 AM
Quote from: Sardok on August 04, 2014, 08:22:55 AM
Technically, the issue is still being discussed.
http://onswipe.com/thedailygalaxy/#!/entry/our-understanding-of-gravity-is-fundamentally-wrong-two-conflicting-theories,5277d19a025312186c78fc66
As far as scientific method goes, it is not being discussed at all, the same as with evolution.
Gravity is a law, but you are confused because there are different theories explaining why there is gravity. Gravity is still a law of reality and part of 'logic' on which iMtG Law is based upon.
Yes it is. Check yo self before you riggety wreck yo self.
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 08:47:36 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 08:32:26 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:51:33 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:32:08 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:30:15 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 07:29:35 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Evolution is proven by mathematical evolutionary algorithms.
Technically, they're all theories. Gravity is a theory. But you don't see people floating off sidewalks.
I call a lie on this one. Gravity is a law.
I call a lie on your lie. They're all technically theories, because there may always be something else. Scientists know this.
I'm afraid I'll have to ban you for 10 days in this case ;)
http://chemistry.about.com/od/lecturenotesl3/a/sciencemethod.htm
I'm afraid that is against iMtG law ;)
It would not be, but I decided to forgive you this time ;)
Do not do to others what you wouldn't want done to you, remember? I don't want that done to me, obviously. Against iMtG law.
Oh, and that wasn't a lie. I actually believe that for a fact, making it no longer fit the definition of lie.
Taysby, why do you always have to sound like an elitist snob in every topic you contribute to? 😂
There's a law of gravity, but there are also many theories of gravity. The law of gravity tells us how gravity affects things. The theories of gravity are explanations of why gravity affects things.
Quote from: Taysby on August 04, 2014, 10:37:44 AM
*except for punishment. You violated it first by lying, so he is justified in punishing you.
And mlerner, take a basic science class. A law is a summary of observed behavior, and a theory is a prediction of what will happen. I probably didn't define it the best way possible, but whatever.
Gravity is a law because it's a summary of what we have seen and there is not one scrap of evidence to disprove it.
I'm in AP biology next year as an 8th grader, I know basic science.
It's a theory because it's not proven 100%. Scientists are still working on it.
I didn't lie. I actually believe it. It's not a lie and it would be unjustified.
Quote from: Piotr on August 04, 2014, 07:22:26 AM
Quote from: Munchlax on August 03, 2014, 08:45:53 PM
Quote from: Piotr on August 03, 2014, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 02, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2014, 07:18:46 AM
We have infinite real common universe to share*, so we should never have to steal. True or false?
* according to current science, which explains the logic of reality.
Eh... It's not proven that the universe is infinite.
It is proven. Where do you go to school, do they also teach you that evolution is just a scam by Darwin and his cronies? O.o
Actually, Evolution is still a theory with lots of evidence stacked against it. And the universe being infinite is also a theory. Also, what do you believe in? If you believe in the Big Bang AND that the universe is infinite, you have already contradicted yourself. The only way the universe could be infinite is if there had been some Divine creator of sorts. So what do you believe?
Evolution is proven by mathematical evolutionary algorithms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm
Did you just site Wikipedia? That's just as bad as admitting defeat...
No, Wikipedia is 95% correct.
But no, it is a theory, it's not 100% proven entirely.
And if his law doesn't care if I think I'm telling the truth he defines lie incorrectly- if I believe it it's not a lie.
Quote from: Taysby on August 04, 2014, 03:28:34 PM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 03:03:10 PM
No, Wikipedia is 95% correct.
But no, it is a theory, it's not 100% proven entirely.
And if his law doesn't care if I think I'm telling the truth he defines lie incorrectly- if I believe it it's not a lie.
A law is a summary of observed behavior. Have you ever dropped a pen and had it go up? No!
And you think an 8th grader is more logical than every single science website out there and every scientist that does it for a living? Not to be rude, but that just isn't logical.
No, I don't, but I'm logical enough.
And that doesn't mean it can't.
Quote from: Taysby on August 04, 2014, 03:54:29 PM
logical enough doesn't mean you think they're wrong that it's a law.
You don't know what a law means mlerner. go look it up then come back. I've posted enough links.
http://adamkemp.newsvine.com/_news/2007/01/09/513465-the-nature-of-science-why-gravity-is-just-a-theory
They're all theories.
Quote from: Taysby on August 04, 2014, 05:42:00 PM
You don't know the definition of law and theory. I've said it multiple times.
Yes, in science anything can change based off of evidence, however, gravity is a law.
And that is one person's opinion ed/rant.
Actually no mlerner is right. Unless you test all gravity everywhere and it fits the bill, it's just a theory.
Quote from: Levi, Human Legion on August 04, 2014, 06:08:33 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 04, 2014, 05:42:00 PM
You don't know the definition of law and theory. I've said it multiple times.
Yes, in science anything can change based off of evidence, however, gravity is a law.
And that is one person's opinion ed/rant.
Actually no mlerner is right. Unless you test all gravity everywhere and it fits the bill, it's just a theory.
Actually, you are both right."A law is just a part of a theory that can be stated in the form of a single sentence or a single equation. Newton's law of gravity is the statement that the force by which a particle of mass M acts on a particle of mass m has magnitude GMm/r2 and direction from m to M. Newton's theory of gravity is the framework that contains this law and everything else you need to calculate the motion of particles influenced by this law. A theory doesn't ever stop being a theory just because sufficient evidence to support it has been found. There's no word that means "theory with lots of evidence to support it"." -my college level physics textbook.
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 12:46:31 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 04, 2014, 10:37:44 AM
*except for punishment. You violated it first by lying, so he is justified in punishing you.
And mlerner, take a basic science class. A law is a summary of observed behavior, and a theory is a prediction of what will happen. I probably didn't define it the best way possible, but whatever.
Gravity is a law because it's a summary of what we have seen and there is not one scrap of evidence to disprove it.
I'm in AP biology next year as an 8th grader, I know basic science.
It's a theory because it's not proven 100%. Scientists are still working on it.
I didn't lie. I actually believe it. It's not a lie and it would be unjustified.
You have been told you are spreading a lie, now stop or I'll stop forgiving you.
Same for the other smartass who can't decide what's his name.
"I believe in a thing called love! Just listen to the rhythm of my heart!"
I'm a Christian.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 04, 2014, 06:44:46 PM
Quote from: Levi, Human Legion on August 04, 2014, 06:08:33 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 04, 2014, 05:42:00 PM
You don't know the definition of law and theory. I've said it multiple times.
Yes, in science anything can change based off of evidence, however, gravity is a law.
And that is one person's opinion ed/rant.
Actually no mlerner is right. Unless you test all gravity everywhere and it fits the bill, it's just a theory.
Actually, you are both right."A law is just a part of a theory that can be stated in the form of a single sentence or a single equation. Newton's law of gravity is the statement that the force by which a particle of mass M acts on a particle of mass m has magnitude GMm/r2 and direction from m to M. Newton's theory of gravity is the framework that contains this law and everything else you need to calculate the motion of particles influenced by this law. A theory doesn't ever stop being a theory just because sufficient evidence to support it has been found. There's no word that means "theory with lots of evidence to support it"." -my college level physics textbook.
This. I was about to say something, until I read that you already had. They are both right, and in a way, they are both wrong.
Quote from: Piotr on August 05, 2014, 02:53:00 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on August 04, 2014, 12:46:31 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 04, 2014, 10:37:44 AM
*except for punishment. You violated it first by lying, so he is justified in punishing you.
And mlerner, take a basic science class. A law is a summary of observed behavior, and a theory is a prediction of what will happen. I probably didn't define it the best way possible, but whatever.
Gravity is a law because it's a summary of what we have seen and there is not one scrap of evidence to disprove it.
I'm in AP biology next year as an 8th grader, I know basic science.
It's a theory because it's not proven 100%. Scientists are still working on it.
I didn't lie. I actually believe it. It's not a lie and it would be unjustified.
You have been told you are spreading a lie, now stop or I'll stop forgiving you.
Same for the other smartass who can't decide what's his name.
I take extreme offense in that. ;) I just like anime.
And you have been told that this is not lying due to the fact that I believe this, and likely so does Taysbe. It no longer first the definition of lie, and I humbly request that you consider changing your definition. If your dictionary from... Poland? What country? From whatever europian country you are in has a different definition, I apologize.
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 12:07:12 PM
Just because you believe it doesn't necessarily make it right.
But because I believe it it isn't a
lie.
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 12:55:15 PM
if it isn't right, and you claim that it is, then that is a lie.
If I think it's right, it's not a lie. Check a dictionary.
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 01:03:20 PM
would you prefer we start saying "untruths" instead?
For all intents and purposes, a lie is a statement someone makes that isn't true.
see alse
used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.
You're saying whenever someone incorrectly messes up a rules question or says a card will probably jump but it doesn't, they're lying? A lie needs to involve deception. If they think it's true it's not deceptive.
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 02:31:46 PM
Quote from: Levi, Human Legion on August 05, 2014, 02:09:03 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 01:03:20 PM
would you prefer we start saying "untruths" instead?
For all intents and purposes, a lie is a statement someone makes that isn't true.
see alse
used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.
You're saying whenever someone incorrectly messes up a rules question or says a card will probably jump but it doesn't, they're lying? A lie needs to involve deception. If they think it's true it's not deceptive.
For all intents and purposes, they are lying. It's not the exact dictionary definition, but it's pretty darn close.
You can deceive someone while still believing it's true.
A practical definition of a lie would be saying something that isn't true.
Did you not see the bolded part? That is part of the dictionary definition.
You left out the part that says they have to think its false. For all intents and purposes we should use the actual definition. You're saying whenever someone answers a rules question wrong they should be punished, because according to your definition it's a lie.
It's also not pretty earn close. A practical definition would be the real definition.
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 03:34:21 PM
Gravity is pulling you to the lamp next to you, but practically, there is no force between you and the lamp.
I'm not sayin there should be no room for leniency, but if they gave the wrong answer, then in essence, it was a lie.
How? It's false, but they don't think
It's false. LOOK UP THE DEFINITION BEFORE YOU POST.
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 05:15:58 PM
Quote from: Levi, Human Legion on August 05, 2014, 03:45:35 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 03:34:21 PM
Gravity is pulling you to the lamp next to you, but practically, there is no force between you and the lamp.
I'm not sayin there should be no room for leniency, but if they gave the wrong answer, then in essence, it was a lie.
How? It's false, but they don't think
It's false. LOOK UP THE DEFINITION BEFORE YOU POST.
I did. I pointed out one of the many definitions that lie has, but you refused to acknowledge it.
And i asked if you would prefer us to start calling them mistruths, and you refused to acknowledge it also.
That's not the definition. And yes, I would prefer mistruths.
That's still part of the first definition, the definition needs to be true for that to take effect.
From wikipedia:
"A lie is a false statement to a person or a group made by another person or group who knows it is not the whole truth, intentionally."
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 08:03:32 PM
regardless of all of that (i could continue to argue) WHY DOES IT MATTER??? You get our point, why don't you just go "k, that's what they define a lie as" and move on?
BC you're using that as a basis for the rest of your argument
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 09:32:34 PM
We know what we want to punish, we just call it a lie. What's the big deal if we say "something that isn't true is a lie"?
Because it's wrong and if Piotr decides to punish it's unjust :P
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 09:38:27 PM
And what part of punishing people who say things that are incorrect is unjust?
What if it's a prediction? They can't control it.
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 09:37:53 PM
And you'll see that he'll correct you first, so by either definition, it's still a lie.
Take note, Taysby is quite right here.
Quote from: Piotr on August 06, 2014, 03:48:26 AM
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 09:37:53 PM
And you'll see that he'll correct you first, so by either definition, it's still a lie.
Take note, Taysby is quite right here.
I honestly don't understand what he's saying. Can you translate?
Quote from: Levi, Human Legion on August 06, 2014, 10:04:32 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 06, 2014, 03:48:26 AM
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 09:37:53 PM
And you'll see that he'll correct you first, so by either definition, it's still a lie.
Take note, Taysby is quite right here.
I honestly don't understand what he's saying. Can you translate?
When he informs you that something is a lie, and explains why it is a lie, yet you still continue to spout said lie, you are lying...
Quote from: Spencer Addington on August 06, 2014, 10:58:21 AM
Quote from: Levi, Human Legion on August 06, 2014, 10:04:32 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 06, 2014, 03:48:26 AM
Quote from: Taysby on August 05, 2014, 09:37:53 PM
And you'll see that he'll correct you first, so by either definition, it's still a lie.
Take note, Taysby is quite right here.
I honestly don't understand what he's saying. Can you translate?
When he informs you that something is a lie, and explains why it is a lie, yet you still continue to spout said lie, you are lying...
Not if he was wrong to begin with and it wasn't a lie. In this situation, that is the case- he said it was a lie when it wasn't.
Quote from: Taysby on August 06, 2014, 12:38:00 PM
1). You said something that was incorrect
2). Piotr corrects you
3). You continue to say it
Now it's a lie. He does that every time. He not just going to ban you the first time you say something incorrect.
Well, I still think it's true. It's not a lie. And anyways, I proved him wrong with my link. It's a theory until all gravity everywhere has been tested and works with the theory.
Quote from: Taysby on August 06, 2014, 02:03:12 PM
http://evidence-based-science.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-is-scientific-law-theory.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law
http://faculty.sdmiramar.edu/fgarces/zCourse/All_Year/Ch100_OL/aMy_FileLec/04OL_LecNotes_Ch100/01_Measurement/101_SciMethod/101_ScientificMethod.pdf page 6
That is incorrect. a law is a summary of observed behavior, and a theory trys to explain what happens. Get your scientific terms right.
A law can't be a law until it's proven everything that it concerns fits the law. The current only way to do that is by checking all of it. A theory is what scientists think is true, but hasn't been fully proven yet the way it has to.
Quote from: Levi, Human Legion on August 06, 2014, 04:21:24 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 06, 2014, 02:03:12 PM
http://evidence-based-science.blogspot.com/2008/02/what-is-scientific-law-theory.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law
http://faculty.sdmiramar.edu/fgarces/zCourse/All_Year/Ch100_OL/aMy_FileLec/04OL_LecNotes_Ch100/01_Measurement/101_SciMethod/101_ScientificMethod.pdf page 6
That is incorrect. a law is a summary of observed behavior, and a theory trys to explain what happens. Get your scientific terms right.
A law can't be a law until it's proven everything that it concerns fits the law. The current only way to do that is by checking all of it. A theory is what scientists think is true, but hasn't been fully proven yet the way it has to.
sigh
Main Entry: scientific law
Part of Speech: n
Definition: a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariably occur whenever certain conditions exist or are met; also, a formal statement about such a phenomenon; also called natural law
Main Entry: theory
Part of Speech: n
1.
a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity. Synonyms: principle, law, doctrine.
2.
a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
via dictionary.com
Even though honestly the only practicle difference between a law and a theory is that laws are theories we made before we realised everything gets screwed up whenever you get reletivistic or quantum. Newton's laws aren't really laws, they are theories that got integrated into joint human knowledge before we realised they break down.
Quote from: Demigoron on August 06, 2014, 05:07:48 PM
Even though honestly the only practicle difference between a law and a theory is that laws are theories we made before we realised everything gets screwed up whenever you get reletivistic or quantum. Newton's laws aren't really laws, they are theories that got integrated into joint human knowledge before we realised they break down.
Eeeehhhhhh. So they are both right. And they are both wrong.... Can't we just agree to disagree? Internet arguing doesn't solve anything.
Quote from: blackychan1 on August 06, 2014, 05:11:01 PM
Quote from: Demigoron on August 06, 2014, 05:07:48 PM
Even though honestly the only practicle difference between a law and a theory is that laws are theories we made before we realised everything gets screwed up whenever you get reletivistic or quantum. Newton's laws aren't really laws, they are theories that got integrated into joint human knowledge before we realised they break down.
Eeeehhhhhh. So they are both right. And they are both wrong.... Can't we just agree to disagree? Internet arguing doesn't solve anything.
Exactly.
Quote from: Taysby on August 06, 2014, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: Demigoron on August 06, 2014, 05:07:48 PM
Even though honestly the only practicle difference between a law and a theory is that laws are theories we made before we realised everything gets screwed up whenever you get reletivistic or quantum. Newton's laws aren't really laws, they are theories that got integrated into joint human knowledge before we realised they break down.
Um... No. A law is a summary of observed behavior, and a theory tries to explain why, or predict something.
A theory is a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that CAN be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena
A theory doesn't need to explain why, it merely can.
Quote from: Demigoron on August 06, 2014, 05:31:41 PM
Quote from: blackychan1 on August 06, 2014, 05:11:01 PM
Quote from: Demigoron on August 06, 2014, 05:07:48 PM
Even though honestly the only practicle difference between a law and a theory is that laws are theories we made before we realised everything gets screwed up whenever you get reletivistic or quantum. Newton's laws aren't really laws, they are theories that got integrated into joint human knowledge before we realised they break down.
Eeeehhhhhh. So they are both right. And they are both wrong.... Can't we just agree to disagree? Internet arguing doesn't solve anything.
Exactly.
Lol, we came to this conclusion a few pages back
Quote from: Taysby on August 06, 2014, 08:16:33 PM
Quote from: Demigoron on August 06, 2014, 06:27:41 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 06, 2014, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: Demigoron on August 06, 2014, 05:07:48 PM
Even though honestly the only practicle difference between a law and a theory is that laws are theories we made before we realised everything gets screwed up whenever you get reletivistic or quantum. Newton's laws aren't really laws, they are theories that got integrated into joint human knowledge before we realised they break down.
Um... No. A law is a summary of observed behavior, and a theory tries to explain why, or predict something.
A theory is a coherent group of tested general propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that CAN be used as principles of explanation and prediction for a class of phenomena
A theory doesn't need to explain why, it merely can.
And that's why I said OR. ;)
true, but a theory is everything you state defines a law, in addition to what you say defines a theory.
Quickly ducking out before .poo. goes wrong
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 06, 2014, 08:00:11 PM
Quote from: Demigoron on August 06, 2014, 05:31:41 PM
Quote from: blackychan1 on August 06, 2014, 05:11:01 PM
Quote from: Demigoron on August 06, 2014, 05:07:48 PM
Even though honestly the only practicle difference between a law and a theory is that laws are theories we made before we realised everything gets screwed up whenever you get reletivistic or quantum. Newton's laws aren't really laws, they are theories that got integrated into joint human knowledge before we realised they break down.
Eeeehhhhhh. So they are both right. And they are both wrong.... Can't we just agree to disagree? Internet arguing doesn't solve anything.
Exactly.
Lol, we came to this conclusion a few pages back
I know! I posted approximately the same thing that time too!