What do you believe in?

[Coffee Vampire]

How can one claim to have freewill given how much you can't actually control. Using David Hume's is-ought argument, how can anyone claim that they COULD have done something different, given what actually occurred?

This argument doesn't disprove free will. It just appeals to ignorance. It says that since we are ignorant to what we could have done, we could not have done anything else. It doesn't disprove that the choices we make are actual choices; all it does is point out an obvious fact: you cannot relive life (or travel back in time).

To say someone does not have the ability to make choices on the basis that the person has already made a choice (and can't prove it by traveling back in time) does not seem like a sound argument to me.

[Piotr]

It is impossible to accurately predict behavior of relatively simple systems. We struggle with 3-body problem let alone billions of neurons problem. We know we will never know for sure where a single electron is, let alone... There's no determinism neither in large systems (fractals which I mentioned earlier. Chaos is a fascinating thing) nor on the quantum level.

The holes of physical unpredictability left by the two alone are more than enough to give us free will. With a system so complex as a human body, the butterfly effect is enormous.

[BlackJester]

@Coffee Vampire, I get that you believe in free will, but I don't understand other Christains saying "I have a destiny created by God, so he's my puppet master and I really have no control over anything I do."
Your perspective lines up a lot better with Christianty than theirs. Meh.

@Piotr, it seems to me as though you're muddling unpredictability, incomputability, and complexity with free will. I mean, just because the math for the interaction of the motion of three bodies in space is hard, doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist or is undefined.
Also, stepping back, the behavior of larger systems is actually easier to predict to an extent due to the law of large numbers. Minor fluctuations and unpredictable motion of tiny numbers of particles is mitigated by the fact that the average behavior of many particles will converge.

[Piotr]

Of course, I'm using those examples as a figure of speech to visualise where I'm coming from. I believe in free will and that it comes from the fact that physicality is 'undefined, unpredictable, and so on'.

[Dudecore]

People often confuse Determism with fatalism. We're not "fated" to do anything. The future is determined for us (individuals) based on our genetic makeup, circumstances, experience, societal upbringing, environment and a combination of other factors.

To put it bluntly, and more or less unsourced, 3 billion years from the big bang till now, and we're here, born in our respective geographical locations, our race, gender, social status, and general health determined for us. Our values based on our relative region in the world, our parents being who they are (also based undeniable on their parents, their life experience, ect). We truly have no control over those things, and are truly fortunate to turn out the way we have.

We owe so much of who we are to an innumerable amount of things we have no control over.

I did not choose to be born white, in America in the 21st century. But now that I am, how could I suggest it be otherwise. It just is what it is. 3 billion years from the big bang till now. How could it be different? There is no oughts, only IS.

[Dudecore]

I am not nihilistic or pessimistic. I just realize that everyone is a product of their DNA, environment, gender, upbringing and time period. In the 17th century could I have the same thoughts, upbringing, emotional mindstate, access to the information I have now, even be literate? I can't possibly profess to being any of those things, so what makes me who I am? Well...im here.

I can't have an opinion of myself in a situation where I had no control...and I still can't claim to have control.

[Piotr]

So what. It's not like my world of choices isn't absolutely mindboggingly huge. The fact that I cannot choose to be Japanese born in 1410 doesn't limit my free will in the slightest.

[BlackJester]

Big Bang until now, 13.75 Billion years (yes reported to two decimal places).  I know that fact is not really relevant to your point, but the Jester likes to keep facts straight. 😉

[Piotr]

You forgot
*according to the current science
as it changes quite often 😉 Good story to read: Big Bang by Simon Singh.

[Piotr]

I forgot
*quite often in scientific terms
as physics has mostly stagnated since the 1980s
Another good story to read: Trouble With Physics by Smolin.

[Nobbert]

The Christian god allows good people to do bad things because he gave man free will.  Man's evil is a result of free will, according to Christian apologists.  Heaven is a place free of evil. Therefore, I must ask: do you have free will in heaven?  If so, then evil can exist in heaven, which doesn't sound heavenly.  If not, then I'd have no choice over my own actions, which also doesn't sound very heavenly.

[BlackJester]

You forgot
*according to the current science
as it changes quite often 😉 Good story to read: Big Bang by Simon Singh.

Mayhap, but does it converge toward a more and more accurate number as more data is collected, analyzed, and tested against current knowledge?  And you should assume that footnote to any documented scientific fact, so I didn't bother. 

The Christian god allows good people to do bad things because he gave man free will.  Man's evil is a result of free will, according to Christian apologists.  Heaven is a place free of evil. Therefore, I must ask: do you have free will in heaven?  If so, then evil can exist in heaven, which doesn't sound heavenly.  If not, then I'd have no choice over my own actions, which also doesn't sound very heavenly.

Interesting reasoning.  I think that's a good argument to think about.

[Dudecore]

So what. It's not like my world of choices isn't absolutely mindboggingly huge. The fact that I cannot choose to be Japanese born in 1410 doesn't limit my free will in the slightest.

Being born in 1410 in japan would make you a completely different person. That's essentially what I'm saying.

You are capable of having preferences, if you didn't make this App it wouldn't have made itself. Someone can even wake up tomorrow intent on bettering their lives. But someone's knowledge, desire, effort and ability will have been determined long before they perceive a choice.

If we all have free will, what's our excuse for obesity? Why should someone's free mind fail them in that regard?

[BlackJester]

Being born in 1410 in japan would make you a completely different person. That's essentially what I'm saying.

You are capable of having preferences, if you didn't make this App it wouldn't have made itself. Someone can even wake up tomorrow intent on bettering their lives. But someone's knowledge, desire, effort and ability will have been determined long before they perceive a choice.

If we all have free will, what's our excuse for obesity? Why should someone's free mind fail them in that regard?

Having free will would mean we are CAPABLE of making bad choices, choices that may harm ourselves.  Maybe millions of people are CHOOSING the tasty bacon instead of the apple or banana.

Free will is saying: I can wear either my Purple shirt or my Red shirt today.  I can do either.
Determinism or Causality is saying: All the chemical reactions happening will cause me to choose Purple shirt.  I can do no other.

(I chose the Purple shirt, if you're curious, but that's irrelevant )

I forgot
*quite often in scientific terms
as physics has mostly stagnated since the 1980s
Another good story to read: Trouble With Physics by Smolin.

Just added to my audio book list.  Thank you!

[Eryama]

The Christian god allows good people to do bad things because he gave man free will.  Man's evil is a result of free will, according to Christian apologists.  Heaven is a place free of evil. Therefore, I must ask: do you have free will in heaven?  If so, then evil can exist in heaven, which doesn't sound heavenly.  If not, then I'd have no choice over my own actions, which also doesn't sound very heavenly.

There are two main issues that go against that argument.
First, when we consider God and Heaven, we think of them in earthly terms. (Streets of gold, pearly gates, etc.) The Bible uses these terms to try to help our mortal minds understand something that we cannot fully understand. So to say that sin could be in heaven is speaking on mortal terms.
Second, because our mortal minds cannot comprehend the spiritual side of things, we assume that we can do whatever we want in Heaven. I believe that the power and presence of God will be so overwhelming and awesome, that we will want to do nothing more than sing His praises for eternity. While this may sound boring, and it does to me sometimes as well, this is only because our mortal minds cannot comprehend God Himself.