yes Im one of those ppl. But I don't get why ppl dislike it so much?
I wouldn't have brought it up except last night at FNM a spectating guy said (during my match) that he can't wait for BFZ so ppl can't do that anymore I looked and smirked thinking he was saying it in a friendly way. So I said Ya its gunna suck for me. And then he looked at me and said "there's a reason they're stopping ppl like you" he didn't say it in a mean way but he said it implying that somehow I was cheating bc of it. I didn't really get it though. Is it a common thing for lands front ppl to cheat?
I mean I play control so I rarely have nonland permanents on the field I do it for personal comfort mostly and I get the occasional friendly heckle but in the end does it matter? Who cares where I put my lands/spells??
Just remember that rule only applies to PT on camera matches
Cuz then I just tell people to F off, I play similar, sometimes I have my things set up in squares, I move mana for organizing and also for making false tells.
Read the rules I tell people, just like often you must tell people to RTFC
I will quote rules for you :)
The full details of how their cards must be laid out on the table in the video feature match area can be found below:
Creatures must be in front of lands, and nothing can be behind lands.
The library can be on either side of the play area (left or right).
The graveyard must be adjacent to the library (player can choose which side of play area both are on).
The exile zone must be near the library/graveyard and must be distinct from the graveyard.
If a card is exiled by a permanent in play, the exiled card must be placed in proximity to the exiling permanent such that it is obvious that the two are associated.
All untapped cards in play must face the controller of that card.
This layout will only be enforced during matches in the area where video recording is taking place. This layout change will not be enforced outside of that, however we strongly encourage players to use this layout when playing their matches in an off-camera area. It is not only good practice for when you are under the feature match camera, but also encourages a regular layout among all Magic players, which improves everyone's ability to understand what is going on in a game when observing the gameplay area.
Source: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/changes-starting-pro-tour-magic-origins-2015-06-29
1. What changes in bfz? Nothing except for that you can't do it on camera right? And I think that change already happened.
2. Everyone knows that it doesn't meant cheating, this guys probably just a tool.
3. I don't know why people hate it so much either. I want to start doing it to mess with my friends who have an adamant hate for it *ahem dimiroverlord
Thanks Muggy! +1 for awesomenes
It is just for feature matches but for some reason ppl get ticked off by it lol I think lands first just looks cleaner no cards falling off the table, opponent can easily see my lands and what mana I have available. Idk I like lands first :)
Glad to help!
Well I get it, it's a pet peeve of mine aswell and I feel it's all about courtesy. If you aren't running non-land permanents, it's no big deal, but the people who put their lands up top and their non land closest to them is annoying. I can visually see what's closest to me easiest. I don't need to be able to read what an island does, I already know, however, non land permanents that effect the board state should be easier to see for your opponents who may be unfamiliar with that particular card. The player who put those cards in their deck shouldn't need to have them closer to themselves as they should already be familiar with it. Not everybody has a mental mtg database in their head. The resentment (from people like me) spawns from players who do this to draw attention away from cards they want to keep in play.
Not to mention logic. How are all those elves going to attack me if they're on the wrong side of the forest. I'm over here. Past the forest. On the other side of the table.
Anyways, that's my take on it.
Ya that's a fair point. And I agree with those points a lot (especially the elf attacking lol) I've also been taking a step further and playing like Adrian Sullivan lol example I play Narset upside down so my opponent can read her bc ppl aren't familiar with her at all
Elves usually have forest walk
Elves usually walk in forests but most elves are forest walk free. ({Eledamri, lord of leaves} and the {elvish champion} absent, of course)
I hate it. My first experience was a guy who started coming to my lgs' fnm. He placed really well the first week and on the second one i was watching him play a friend of mine in round 2. My friend was relatively new. I got crushed by a rdw so they had only finished the first hand but i did see during the first game he was pointing things out on stuff. I thought it was really nice of him to help teach a new player. I was kinda half watching him during their second round and thought i saw him untap something while doing one of his pointouts but wasn't sure cause i had been playing on my phone, i started watching more closely and noticed him do it again. He had untapped a mana dork so he hand enough mana to counter my friends spell. Judge called, i explained, i claimed me and my friend were lieing, etc. judge decicided to watch the rest of that round. He ends up lossing hands 2 and 3.
Judge ends up giving him a suggestion to keep his lands in the back to "avoid confusion like that in the future." That guy has never returned to my lgs after that.
So i have a stigma against it now. So i now play with a really weird board structure against them and watch them extea close.
A cheater is gonna cheat. It doesn't matter what you do.
Quote from: Rass on August 29, 2015, 04:59:37 PM
A cheater is gonna cheat. It doesn't matter what you do.
True, but my ownly experience with cheating at mtg has been from a land forward player.
Quote from: redwolv on August 29, 2015, 05:30:26 PM
Quote from: Rass on August 29, 2015, 04:59:37 PM
A cheater is gonna cheat. It doesn't matter what you do.
True, but my ownly experience with cheating at mtg has been from a land forward player.
Correlation != causation
People who get mad because they don't pay attention to board state is silly, it's like - I count my caryatid towards a land and stack it nearby, people forget about it and attack when I can block with caryatid - is it my fault you're not paying attention to board state so you misplay? I think not
Hiding info is one thing, but arranging your board to strategically help you isn't against the rules. If you play tempo or control, making false tells is apart of the play style, and people shouldn't be upset just because they misread information that is clearly available
And if you play control or a deck with tokens, your play area always gets overloaded
Quote from: Kaalia with haste on August 29, 2015, 05:35:15 PM
Quote from: redwolv on August 29, 2015, 05:30:26 PM
Quote from: Rass on August 29, 2015, 04:59:37 PM
A cheater is gonna cheat. It doesn't matter what you do.
True, but my ownly experience with cheating at mtg has been from a land forward player.
Correlation != causation
Can only agree. I was raised on lands first. It was the way to play @ 4th/5th edition when I started. I myself never consciously cheated. (I do sometimes misplay, but who doesn't in long sessions).
When I returned after being absent for quite some years, lands back was the way to play, and I liked it. No more reaching over your stuff to tap your lands. Then again, when I see a card I don't know, I stop my opponent to ask. One player I met steamrolled without me knowing what he was doing exactly, and I will not play (casually) with him again. (He was tapping and untapping elves left and right, drawing, chaining things like: I do this this this draw 20, have mana equal to triple the elves on the field so play this this this attack you die..)
Thing is. If you're not clear about anything on the board, stop, clarify. Ask to be handed the card so you can read it (had the same guy claim opponent on a card instead of all players). Where the lands are, and how the cards are positioned, should not interfere with your understanding and being able to follow the board state. If it does, when casual, ask to change. When tournament, ask for a Judge. You should, at all times, be able to know the legitimacy of your opponents actions.
(That's why you reveal when searching for a specific card before putting it in a hidden zone eg). If you can't, your opponent should rectify that. (Your opponent piles his lands, says I tap all for 10, ask him to spread them out if you're unsure he has 10. He should stop and explain.)
This way, you can catch (hopefully honest) misplays and know what is happening, instead of having your mind wonder about what is happening.
Lands front, center, back. It should NOT be an issue to change play style if your opponent can't follow it.
I dislike it because I started/and am used to playing where lands are in the back, and everything has its certain zone. But I will still play somebody who does play with lands in front. If it's a tabletop game, I get a little more frustrated because my eyes are not 20/20. Also, I'm sorry muggy, but your way of putting a mana dork in you land zone is technically not illegal, but it would be a common curtesy to put it in the same zone you would put creatures (at least I think) because when I am attacking, I normally don't take a look at the land zone for blocking creatures.
And that's my take on all this
Quote from: Indianslayer on August 29, 2015, 07:25:26 PM
I dislike it because I started/and am used to playing where lands are in the back, and everything has its certain zone. But I will still play somebody who does play with lands in front. If it's a tabletop game, I get a little more frustrated because my eyes are not 20/20. Also, I'm sorry muggy, but your way of putting a mana dork in you land zone is technically not illegal, but it would be a common curtesy to put it in the same zone you would put creatures (at least I think) because when I am attacking, I normally don't take a look at the land zone for blocking creatures.
And that's my take on all this
Personally I keep utility creatures in the back and combat creatures in front. I realize in pro play this could give clues as to "value" creatures, but at least I won't forget the utility parts or chump with my mana dork instead of with my vanilla..
Get glasses if your eyes Are not 20/20
If you fail to read available information because you need a certain layout; that's not your opponents fault
It's like saying that arranging a caryatid with 1 blue and one colorless land is not appropriate, but yet that formation allows a false sense of a counter may be imminent, which keeps a player from casting a spell
It bugs me a little bit ill play through it. I do admit certain people can be sneaky with having an arm hovering over an enchantment or creature when lands are upfront but it is you're responsibility to know the board state. Then again at the same time it's easy for a player to hide their mana as well with an arm but the difference is you can say "mana available" fairly simple to see and hear it, there's not really any sayings that go like that towards creatures, enchantments, artifacts, etc., but once again it's your responsibility to know board state.
I think I can say this safely for lands front ppl but we do it due to comfort not for sketchy reasons. I do it mainly bc I play very little nonland permanents so I like to have the space to lean/put my hand
The problem is that most lands up front players do what most people do and rest their hands on the table. Normally you're simply covering your lands, not a huge deal. Lands up front covers permanents when they rest their hands like that.
You say that we should be observant and pay attention to board state. I say /it shouldn't take any extra effort/. People forgot stuff and read cards wrong, it's part of magic. But putting your lands up front, for the right or wrong reasons, gives you an advantage. /Especially/ against inexperienced and shy players.
That being said I'll play with you if you have lands up front. I give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm observant enough to figure stuff out and I have a knack for memorizing cards without trying. I dislike lands out front, but most people do it simply because they're used to it, not to cheat. At the end of the day I just watch you more. Besides, who am I to deny you comfort? I can handle it.
I don't lean or put put my hand ontop of any permanents I'm not an idiot lol I make sure everything is visible and as I said before sometimes I flip my cards if I know the opponent is inexperienced. I make sure everything is normal
Covering cards is never good, wether it's lands or other permanents.
Does it really take extra effort to read a board state when permanents are 4" farther from you?
Would you have the same complaint if they played everything as far back as possible - so non land permanents would be about the same distance as lands in front, but lands behind that?
I think that as long as you are not covering any thing with your arms, covering a mana dork with a land, or maliciously diverting attention from something to cheat like the guy from the comments before you should be fine. Just dont be a dick. let people see what you got, explain if the person is not experienced, and dont take advantage of others.
The whole point of the rule is not to make it easier on your opponent, but easier for people watching the game to understand. If there is a uniform, LOGICAL layout then even people who dont understand the game's intricacies will find it easier to understand what's going on. And isnt that what we all want? The game being more alluring for non players so the game can grow? And that the game looks like it is aesthetically pleasing, and neat and tidy?
As far as being logical goes, 99% of the time it is your other permanents that interact with your opponent and their permanents, especially but not limited to combat. That is all much easier to organise when they are in close proximity. Not separated by a bunch of cards that do nothing but turn sideways. Ever watch a Yugioh game? I know nothing about the game, but they have to set their board up in a certain way and I can figure out whats what because of that. Magic board states can be such a clusterfuck at times so I think the gamr would benefit from a uniform rule.
That is my take on the issue, and why I get annoyed at people who play lands out front.
Funny you should mention Yugioh, I was a Yugioh player before I was a magic player, so my idea of the layout works like that because it's simple to understand. I've been playing like that ever since I started the game, it just makes sense to me. I can't speak on the issue at hand, because I've never encountered it, but an easy to understand layout and a uniform display makes the game simpler and easy to enjoy in my opinion.
Taysby - I normally move mana dorks from land area to a new zone when entering combat - as most people do forget
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on August 30, 2015, 12:48:13 AM
Taysby - I normally move mana dorks from land area to a new zone when entering combat - as most people do forget
Glad you mentioned that now after Taysby brought it up and after you told home boy to get glasses. Lol
Even if I don't move it, you should be aware of board state.
I began moving it to remind people of me having blockers. Sometimes you help people at casual days, at a big event: better read the board better or do wrong math and run into a caryatid
Lol shots fired.
I understand both sides. I used to play lands closer to my opponent but changed since it took longer to play. But if I feel it's gonna annoy my opponent I may just play that way because now it's in there head. But I think wotc should set up a basic outline of how the board should be. But also you should be aware of what's on the board at all times.
Main thing I disagree with layering csrds almost on top of each other to hide info. Had someone do that at a gpt once - board showed 2 open lands, go to cast PW
Guy taps land under temple of deceit, (basically revealing it as i cast my pw)
Very shady move doing stuff like that
Lol no shots fired my earlier post was all about understanding board state but muggy was a lil harsh for our friendly page earlier and I was just messing with him, no hard feelings. Lol
Hey I wear glasses and notice too many people need them, but don't get them
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on August 30, 2015, 01:30:14 AM
Hey I wear glasses and notice too many people need them, but don't get them
This is true.
Many people also who don't need glasses and wear them to look cool
I disagree with this practice. That present false information.
*wore glasses since I was 9/10, love daily contacts - don't understand why you want to wear something that blocks peripheral vision When you don't need to wear it to improve your vision
I wear glasses because I need them. Trust me when I say not being able to see something clearly is not the same as being too stupid to notice it. I have made that mistake countless times, and will no doubt do it again countless times.
Sometimes you fetch the wrong mana colors or play the wrong land, so is magic the gathering
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on August 30, 2015, 02:34:23 AM
Sometimes you fetch the wrong mana colors or play the wrong land, so is magic the gathering
Dude I swung in with a {monastery swiftspear} with zero prowess triggers not realizing they had a {heir of the wilds} untapped lol sometimes we make some dumb anus decisions too quickly without thinkin lol
Quote from: Codester1991 on August 30, 2015, 02:47:40 AM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on August 30, 2015, 02:34:23 AM
Sometimes you fetch the wrong mana colors or play the wrong land, so is magic the gathering
Dude I swung in with a {monastery swiftspear} with zero prowess triggers not realizing they had a {heir of the wilds} untapped lol sometimes we make some dumb anus decisions too quickly without thinkin lol
Sometimes just too often. Want to seal quick, then miss info. Or I play by what's in my hand, only to figure, by the next draw, I could have done something better. (With the Intel the next card gives me)
Quote from: Taysby on August 29, 2015, 09:19:23 PM
In the legacy lands deck, lands in front is recommended. All other decks it boils down to don't be a dick, have a comman, easy to understand layout.
Muggy, it'd be fine to stick a caryatid next to some lands temporarily to bluff, but put it back eventually.
Does the lands deck ever have nonland permanents other than Marit lage?
Down with lands in fronters! They do the devil's work!
Quote from: particle on August 30, 2015, 09:17:02 AM
Quote from: Taysby on August 29, 2015, 09:19:23 PM
In the legacy lands deck, lands in front is recommended. All other decks it boils down to don't be a dick, have a comman, easy to understand layout.
Muggy, it'd be fine to stick a caryatid next to some lands temporarily to bluff, but put it back eventually.
Does the lands deck ever have nonland permanents other than Marit lage?
Down with lands in fronters! They do the devil's work!
Exploration, mox diamond, and sometimes manabond
Quote from: Kaalia with haste on August 30, 2015, 09:40:29 AM
Quote from: particle on August 30, 2015, 09:17:02 AM
Quote from: Taysby on August 29, 2015, 09:19:23 PM
In the legacy lands deck, lands in front is recommended. All other decks it boils down to don't be a dick, have a comman, easy to understand layout.
Muggy, it'd be fine to stick a caryatid next to some lands temporarily to bluff, but put it back eventually.
Does the lands deck ever have nonland permanents other than Marit lage?
Down with lands in fronters! They do the devil's work!
Exploration, mox diamond, and sometimes manabond
But diamond is normally with lands, right? I forgot {exploration}.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on August 30, 2015, 01:22:00 AM
Main thing I disagree with layering csrds almost on top of each other to hide info. Had someone do that at a gpt once - board showed 2 open lands, go to cast PW
Guy taps land under temple of deceit, (basically revealing it as i cast my pw)
Very shady move doing stuff like that
That's completely illegal. You have to be able to see your opponents cards at all times.
Yeah and unfortunately the judge wasn't there to observe as he claimed it was showing...
And in the end, we all have grew to understand why people play lands the way they do. And I think we could all agree on an outline for setting up board states would be beneficial for the overall gameplay of magic. Also, I do have glasses... I normally play on big tables.... *one tear emoji*
Quote from: Indianslayer on August 30, 2015, 05:40:54 PM
And in the end, we all have grew to understand why people play lands the way they do. And I think we could all agree on an outline for setting up board states would be beneficial for the overall gameplay of magic. Also, I do have glasses... I normally play on big tables.... 😢
Lands in front just makes it too easy for shady things to happen. Whether on purpose or not. You could be the honest Abe of magic but that doesn't mean everyone else would be. That's the issue. It makes it too easy to hide things from your opponent.
At least none of you do the Adrian Sullivan lands in front and everything upside down. I'd probably drop kick you if you did.
How on earth does lands in front make it more shady? Wouldn't lands back be more shady? Bc you can quickly untap a land/play an extra one.
Much easier to play an extra land when mana base in near you. "Did I play a land yet?"
I think he means shady as in a Forest or a Mountain casting a shade on the rest of the cards since they are in front of them. I guess Plains are fine to be in front!
Quote from: mickeven on August 31, 2015, 03:42:49 PM
I think he means shady as in a Forest or a Mountain casting a shade on the rest of the cards since they are in front of them. I guess Plains are fine to be in front!
Would swamps be considered shady then?
oh they are shadiest. so dark and murky. plus shades love them
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 31, 2015, 02:47:46 PM
How on earth does lands in front make it more shady? Wouldn't lands back be more shady? Bc you can quickly untap a land/play an extra one.
Hmm, untapping my lands and getting more out or, you know, not letting my opponent see my boards state, cheating in and untapping creatures?
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 01, 2015, 06:17:13 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 31, 2015, 02:47:46 PM
How on earth does lands in front make it more shady? Wouldn't lands back be more shady? Bc you can quickly untap a land/play an extra one.
Hmm, untapping my lands and getting more out or, you know, not letting my opponent see my boards state, cheating in and untapping creatures?
Except the same exact thing can be said for Lands back ppl. Just replace creatures with lands in your argument. In fact, what is more easy to spot, a cheated in creature or an extra land? So wouldnt it be easier to cheat with lands back?
I occasionally play with lands in front as a joke if I'm playing Control, or a deck without too many permanents, or just at the start of a game before things actually hit the board. I've never had a problem with people playing them in front, and I know several high-level players who do so!
Quote from: Remillo on September 01, 2015, 06:50:51 PM
I occasionally play with lands in front as a joke if I'm playing Control, or a deck without too many permanents, or just at the start of a game before things actually hit the board. I've never had a problem with people playing them in front, and I know several high-level players who do so!
Yeah, I like to make a "land wall" to keep my opponents creatures from reaching me in my control deck! That's the only time I do it though, creatures in from otherwise.
Quote from: Noblellama on September 01, 2015, 06:49:36 PM
Would Magic Judges and Rules stop you from wearing a Go-Pro helmet as long as it is not transmitting live and is only recording?
personal "camera" matches
wearing it on the guise of recording how you play to watch for mistakes and the like and if you so happen to catch your opponent cheating you could hand the gopro to the judge?
Comp rel = no electronic devices
Quote from: Mattao19 on September 01, 2015, 06:45:26 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 01, 2015, 06:17:13 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 31, 2015, 02:47:46 PM
How on earth does lands in front make it more shady? Wouldn't lands back be more shady? Bc you can quickly untap a land/play an extra one.
Hmm, untapping my lands and getting more out or, you know, not letting my opponent see my boards state, cheating in and untapping creatures?
Except the same exact thing can be said for Lands back ppl. Just replace creatures with lands in your argument. In fact, what is more easy to spot, a cheated in creature or an extra land? So wouldnt it be easier to cheat with lands back?
Maybe. We have stories here of people cheating lands up front and there's often covering.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 01, 2015, 08:14:09 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on September 01, 2015, 06:45:26 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 01, 2015, 06:17:13 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 31, 2015, 02:47:46 PM
How on earth does lands in front make it more shady? Wouldn't lands back be more shady? Bc you can quickly untap a land/play an extra one.
Hmm, untapping my lands and getting more out or, you know, not letting my opponent see my boards state, cheating in and untapping creatures?
Except the same exact thing can be said for Lands back ppl. Just replace creatures with lands in your argument. In fact, what is more easy to spot, a cheated in creature or an extra land? So wouldnt it be easier to cheat with lands back?
Maybe. We have stories here of people cheating lands up front and there's often covering.
That's because people are better at cheating with their lands in back so they don't get caught.😆😆😆
I still don't understand how there's a debate. It's only the blue players that do it. Only blue play lands up front because everybody else uses these permanents called creatures to punch each other in the face until someone comes out a winner. As such, combat is a huge factor in determining that outcome. In 1v1 (which is how the game was originally designed, folks, see alpha {wheel of fortune}. With creatures closest to each other it is far easier to show attackers and assign blockers. Blue has no need for this. Well, control has no need for this but we all know that control is synonymous with blue and therefore I hold blue ultimately responsible for this debacle. It is the ARROGANCE of blue to play their own special way and it has to be different from everyone else. The irony is, it's all the same blue bs. Counter, bounce, counter, draw, draw, draw, draw, counter, bounce bounce counter counter counter. The same blue strategy in every format.
We tolerate this (by we I mean EVERY OTHER COLOR) because that's what we do. We accommodate each other so we can annihilate each other. All we ask is that you respect the way it's always been played. It makes sense logically, and a certain uniformity helps the game flow, makes it easier for others (new players, spectators) to understand, and ultimately people won't have anything to complain about anymore and we can all get along and proceed to destroy each other.
Ya big blue babies. Grow a pair and get in the game.
I feel like I'm being discriminated. Blue is all I play lol.
I mean he doesn't play {U} are his points even valid? I mean what player would play a weaker colour ... ON PURPOSE! Sorry Double but your point has been {Couterspelled}
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 01, 2015, 09:56:44 PM
I still don't understand how there's a debate. It's only the blue players that do it. Only blue play lands up front because everybody else uses these permanents called creatures to punch each other in the face until someone comes out a winner. As such, combat is a huge factor in determining that outcome. In 1v1 (which is how the game was originally designed, folks, see alpha {wheel of fortune}. With creatures closest to each other it is far easier to show attackers and assign blockers. Blue has no need for this. Well, control has no need for this but we all know that control is synonymous with blue and therefore I hold blue ultimately responsible for this debacle. It is the ARROGANCE of blue to play their own special way and it has to be different from everyone else. The irony is, it's all the same blue bs. Counter, bounce, counter, draw, draw, draw, draw, counter, bounce bounce counter counter counter. The same blue strategy in every format.
We tolerate this (by we I mean EVERY OTHER COLOR) because that's what we do. We accommodate each other so we can annihilate each other. All we ask is that you respect the way it's always been played. It makes sense logically, and a certain uniformity helps the game flow, makes it easier for others (new players, spectators) to understand, and ultimately people won't have anything to complain about anymore and we can all get along and proceed to destroy each other.
Ya big blue babies. Grow a pair and get in the game.
So, on the off chance you're serious...
I rarely play blue, and when I do it's more of a splash. When I learned to play in 1994 I learned with lands in front.
MaRo's puzzles way back then in Wizard (iirc) had lands in front.
Please don't pretend lands in front is some conspiracy from blue players trying to make the game harder to understand.
Hey, if you gotta hit the EASY button to defeat your opponent, that's your deal. Followed through to its logical conclusion, if we all played like that, nothing would happen at all, we'd all draw extra, there'd be no need for any board clear and everything would get countered. Just sit there looking at each other.
Love the {U} bashing. (Yes I maindeck {boil} and {tsunami} lol
I guess only real players can appreciate the beauty of the control mirror. Knowing when to go for it what to counter it is such a great match to watch but I guess non blue players have fun summoning 2/2s for 2 that just get wrathed :D
Quote from: Mattao19 on September 02, 2015, 12:26:04 AM
I guess only real players can appreciate the beauty of the control mirror. Knowing when to go for it what to counter it is such a great match to watch but I guess non blue players have fun summoning 2/2s for 2 that just get wrathed :D
Props to Return to Ravnica block.
Wasn't it in the 4th Ed. Rule Book stating that your non-land permanents had to be in front of your lands?
Quote from: Mattao19 on September 02, 2015, 12:26:04 AM
I guess only real players can appreciate the beauty of the control mirror. Knowing when to go for it what to counter it is such a great match to watch but I guess non blue players have fun summoning 2/2s for 2 that just get wrathed :D
Case in point. Blue arrogance. You blue mages are so impressed with yourselves. And to refer to yourselves as the "only real players", quite frankly, is pretty disappointing. Even The almighty Bolas knows well enough to be {B} and {R} aswell. Ugin doesn't even care. But no worries, they can just be countered. Unless your counter is countered, or it can't be countered!, or {price of glory} is on the field and you could counter it but you reaaaally don't want to.... Easy, bounce the price and counter it if it's played again.
I understand if that's all you play and you feel butthurt from my statements. However, don't be foolish enough to think that I don't play {U}. Here's a question, what is the only colour in the power nine? Here's a hint. Nm it's blue. Banned from standard (JtMS) blue, almost every "take extra turn" spell ever (don't, I know there's a bunch that aren't, I know, thank you though) blue, almost every counter, blue. Blue is by far the most powerful color of the color pie. Anybody would be a fool NOT to play blue in a competitive environment. It's just too good. I play a lot of EDH and I can recognize the need for a well placed counter to stop someone going infinite or comboing out.
That's why I try to avoid it. It's like training wheels. Sure I'll splash blue, if I need more card draw, or synergy with a certain mechanic. But I certainly won't build a deck based around just stopping other peoples stuff. Even the old {stasis} control decks punched you in the face during combat. Y'know, stuff was happening on the battlefield.
But blue has lost that noble attitude. They've been corrupted. Now, maybe it's the ichor, maybe it's the threat of eldrazi and they're just terrified, I'm not sure. Whatever the reason, Blue needs to go home and really think about where it's going in its life. At this rate, it's like an 8 year old with a high-powered flash light; annoying, not really useful, but highly entertaining to the 8 year old.
Quote from: Noblellama on September 02, 2015, 08:57:56 AM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 02, 2015, 08:48:18 AM
Whatever the reason, Blue needs to go home and really think about where it's going in its life. At this rate, it's like an 8 year old with a high-powered flash light; annoying, not really useful, but highly entertaining to the 8 year old.
Even if it were not for the rest of that this was worth the +1 a few times over :D
But it's so fun to play Blue without the counters... Blue aggro tribes ftw!!!
I mean ever {U} Mage has to splash for removal. I play {U}{W} for Elspeth and End Hostilities. I'm a fun player to play against sure I like to win but I like to crack jokes make small talk etc. it's not like we are robots lol but again I like to win hence why I play {U}
Quote from: rarehuntertay on September 02, 2015, 06:12:18 AM
Wasn't it in the 4th Ed. Rule Book stating that your non-land permanents had to be in front of your lands?
I've still got a Vth, lemme check that for you. I think I remember otherwise...
I speak for the shard of Esper, in which we have disposed of your petty squabbles. As we force you to comply with our plans, you begin to lose yourself. As you die, you can look up at us and ask, "Why?", but our only response will be,"Because you aren't worth it."
Lol jk but blue is so much fun, I don't understand the blatant disregard for other's prefrences.
Quote from: Mattao19 on September 02, 2015, 01:04:41 PM
I mean ever {U} Mage has to splash for removal. I play {U}{W} for Elspeth and End Hostilities. I'm a fun player to play against sure I like to win but I like to crack jokes make small talk etc. it's not like we are robots lol but again I like to win hence why I play {U}
Of course, everyone likes to win. And if what you say about yourself is true, my argument is not directed at you. Rather, it's directed at blue itself. There is such a thing as obnoxiously too much control. The point is to stop them from winning, not stop them from playing. I've banned Teferi decks from my house on principal only. Made an exception once and it led to a turn 3 {omniscience}. I will never get that time back. Fred Estaire moments, I call them. Tappety tap tap tap tap tap UNTAAAAAP! Much to my annoyance, that musical number is rather long. It's why I took the {derevi, empyrial tactician} deck apart. Which brings me full circle. Blue is the powerhouse. It's supposed to be. Let me put it this way, if magic was duck hunt, the more blue you play, the closer you get to the t.v. And the easier the game is. But I wouldn't walk around saying "look how good I am! I even hold the gun upside down! We're the only real players, that's why we sit so close, cause we care so deeply". It's like the tee you shoot from while golfing. And not only is blue closer to the pin, but is down there blocking your shots and throwing your balls back towards the tee.
Obnoxiously frustrating.
watching 2 players do that to each other is always entertaining. It's like watching 3 stooges. But when you aren't prepared to lower yourself to that level by maindecking against it, it's absurd.
I'm beginning to think it's cause there are just two types of players, not the Johnny, Spike, etc. types.
You have players that play to win and players that play to have fun. They don't mingle well. I'm not saying there are people who don't want to win. I said earlier, everyone wants to win. However, I would rather lose the game after an intense struggle against a well matched opponent than win cheaply like that. It's not about the W. It's about enjoying the game which boils down to respect. Which is the motivation concerning my original post about lands up front.
I leave you with my new favourite old card. I want the artwork jumbo sized, framed and hung on my living room wall. {nature's wrath}
Wow that natures wrath is the definition of a non fun edh without using blue lol.
Quote from: Splicer on September 02, 2015, 03:38:14 PM
Wow that natures wrath is the definition of a non fun edh without using blue lol.
Being a 6-drop, it never actually resolves. But that has its uses too.
We've gotten way afield from the topic...
Name one situation where control is "terrible" lol
Back in the day we had a house-rule in our playgroup, banning those hate-cards.. Respect and fun were the mottos with which we played. Oh, the days relive after my research of good old rule books, finding my first 5th edition (DUTCH) intact except for the cover. (Booklet the size of a magic card, 80 pages..)
However, in those 80 pages nothing is mentioned about the layout of the battlefield.
All that is said, is to expect to play a lot of cards, so to use a flat, dry surface.
In the booklets from Urza's Saga & Legacy, not much rules info is included. Some rule changes that remind you how much has changed (New trample rule that stopped trample be a redirection effect but allowed to do more than lethal damage to a creature to compensate for prevention (And where creatures such as {fog bank} would be plain ignored by tramplers)).
However: nothing on board layout.
The earliest thing I could find was the M13 rules poster, which clearly states: lands are played nearest to you.
It's in the rules folks ;)
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 02, 2015, 03:56:27 PM
Name one situation where control is "terrible" lol
Situation is a bit old, but mono-{U} counter/control vs {scragnoth}. Terrible carnage, every game.
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 02, 2015, 03:56:27 PM
Name one situation where control is "terrible" lol
When you are playing against a super fast deck that kills you before you can get into the endgame. Trust me, control has it's weaknesses.
I am by no means a control player, but I feel the need to clarify ..... playing control and using counterspells etc that lead to winning a game is not a 'cheap' way to win. It is a legitimate strategy that was intended to be a part of the game. If something that is by no means overpowered or oppressive offends you that much that you believe it is 'cheap' than not only do I say that magic may not be for you, but if anyone says to me 'x strategy is a cheap way to win' then I would intentionally only play that strategy against them and during the games constantly call their strategy cheap, cos im a dick like that :)
Also, by calling it cheap arent you being arrogant exactly like you are claiming blue mages are?
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on September 02, 2015, 04:53:24 PM
I am by no means a control player, but I feel the need to clarify ..... playing control and using counterspells etc that lead to winning a game is not a 'cheap' way to win. It is a legitimate strategy that was intended to be a part of the game. If something that is by no means overpowered or oppressive offends you that much that you believe it is 'cheap' than not only do I say that magic may not be for you, but if anyone says to me 'x strategy is a cheap way to win' then I would intentionally only play that strategy against them and during the games constantly call their strategy cheap, cos im a dick like that :)
Also, by calling it cheap arent you being arrogant exactly like you are claiming blue mages are?
Again, the butthurt, emotionally invested response. I can only imagine how many {Ertai, wizard adept} EDH decks are in the works after reading this thread cause that's what you guys do. "What? You don't like that? It's not fun? Here's a whole deck based on it. Brewhahahahaha!!!!"
I'm not saying I cry foul ever time someone plays a counter. I also enjoy a lot of blue and would love to see someone get punted with a {polar kraken}.
I'm saying that obnoxious oppression of the game (which is intrinsically blue) makes the game unfun. I'm not saying we should do away with blue. I'm saying blue requires more depth. I'm not saying I won't play with blue cards or against blue decks. I'm not saying that all of blue is a cheap way to win. I'm saying that counterspelling your opponents strategy is far easier and requires less resources than confronting it. If used in excess, the game comes to a grinding halt and nobody is playing anything anymore. Hence, unfun.
And now that I'm sure I'm clearly angering some of you, I also take issue with black. Totally a new thread, though. We're not even talking about land placement anymore.
You're seriously gonna fight me on this? You've never heard the old joke,
Island: the most powerful card in magic's history. It's funny cause it's kinda true.
Creating a new thread for people to continue this off-topic conversation.
Quote from: Splicer on September 02, 2015, 05:58:50 PM
Creating a new thread for people to continue this off-topic conversation.
Sweet lol
Quote from: Splicer on September 02, 2015, 05:58:50 PM
Creating a new thread for people to continue this off-topic conversation.
Much appreciated :)
Lands shouldn't matter where they are
People need to just take time and Analyze...
And people who play magic need to remove the stick from each other's asses simultaneously, that way we all become less butthurt all at the same time
Tis a salty game
But muggs its your fault I didn't notice your 1/1 death touch. And I'm walking over with the win creature. Wtf. I have to actually pay attention.
I don't agree with muggy on the you have to analyze but that being said its not like we play on small tables with mini cards. A standard playmat is pretty big and easily displays all of our permanents
That's an extreme scenario but still if there was that many creatures then I'd actually side with Muggy bc you do have to be aware of all the creatures. But again that's an extreme example
But then what about a dryad arbor? Would you place that with creatures or land
Nobody knows what to do with dryad arbor lol that's one of the reasons ppl don't play it lol
Quote from: Mattao19 on September 03, 2015, 10:52:21 PM
Nobody knows what to do with dryad arbor lol that's one of the reasons ppl don't play it lol
I'd likely put it with my utility creatures. Between combat creatures & lands, with enchantments/artifacts to the right of that.
I like my little three-zone system, though it creates a little tell of which creatures are too valuable to lose...
See I like creating false tells, or as my friend says, I Jedi mind trick opponents ;)
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on September 04, 2015, 01:44:31 AM
See I like creating false tells, or as my friend says, I Jedi mind trick opponents ;)
I could see myself do that.. Put a {typhoid rat} with the utility creatures. Then again, I like fair, open and fun play, which makes me a lousy competitive player for that matter. But, next prerelease it could be I'll use it..
"This is the spell you want to counter" *gets countered*
*Play Jace the mind sculptor after*
I remember playing back in revised and fourth edition and was taught to play lands up front. All my local groups played that way. It wasn't a written rulebook rule, it was just to make it easier to keep track of mana - mana burn was a part of the game back then. I got out of magic for several years, so I'm not exactly sure about the timeline of the rules changes but it sounds like lands being played behind creatures came out after mana burn was removed from the rules, which makes sense. But I could be wrong about the order. I personally don't care either way; mostly because cheaters will always try to find ways to cheat. It's my job to pay attention.
Quote from: Nfidel2k on September 04, 2015, 11:15:09 AM
I remember playing back in revised and fourth edition and was taught to play lands up front. All my local groups played that way. It wasn't a written rulebook rule, it was just to make it easier to keep track of mana - mana burn was a part of the game back then. I got out of magic for several years, so I'm not exactly sure about the timeline of the rules changes but it sounds like lands being played behind creatures came out after mana burn was removed from the rules, which makes sense. But I could be wrong about the order. I personally don't care either way; mostly because cheaters will always try to find ways to cheat. It's my job to pay attention.
I started playing in Ice Age/ 4th edition and everyone played lands in the back. This lands up front thing I've never seen until recently.
Quote from: Noblellama on September 04, 2015, 01:41:43 PM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on September 04, 2015, 01:06:48 PM
Quote from: Nfidel2k on September 04, 2015, 11:15:09 AM
I remember playing back in revised and fourth edition and was taught to play lands up front. All my local groups played that way. It wasn't a written rulebook rule, it was just to make it easier to keep track of mana - mana burn was a part of the game back then. I got out of magic for several years, so I'm not exactly sure about the timeline of the rules changes but it sounds like lands being played behind creatures came out after mana burn was removed from the rules, which makes sense. But I could be wrong about the order. I personally don't care either way; mostly because cheaters will always try to find ways to cheat. It's my job to pay attention.
I started playing in Ice Age/ 4th edition and everyone played lands in the back. This lands up front thing I've never seen until recently.
Same, only recently started among a few players locally and 2 of the 5 were people that already had bad reputations...
That could be because of the recent discussion following the "template" laid out by Wizards for feature matches. As happens on this thread, people mention the playing field can be schewed easier. Thus shady ppl will switch for their own purposes.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on September 03, 2015, 09:57:18 PM
But then what about a dryad arbor? Would you place that with creatures or land
I'd put it with my dorks, by my lands. I play Modern Elves a lot, and honestly if I drop a dork I put it near my lands to easily count my mana, but I bring it back up when swinging. I honestly don't care where your permanents are, like Muggy said, pay attention.
I typically play lands in front and I keep my dorks with my creatures.
Played a guy last night who was returning to magic and said "Wow, I didn't know anyone still played like that."
He got confused at one point when I mentioned an Exalted trigger because he didn't notice my {Noble Heirarch} somehow. I immediately apologized and switched to lands in back to make things easier on him - he's already stressed returning after a few years, no reason for my play style to add to it.
Quote from: griffin131 on September 05, 2015, 10:45:45 PM
I typically play lands in front and I keep my dorks with my creatures.
Played a guy last night who was returning to magic and said "Wow, I didn't know anyone still played like that."
He got confused at one point when I mentioned an Exalted trigger because he didn't notice my {Noble Heirarch} somehow. I immediately apologized and switched to lands in back to make things easier on him - he's already stressed returning after a few years, no reason for my play style to add to it.
good on you homie. i think thats what it should be about. camaraderie first, unless you a playing competitive of course.
All of what has been said makes sense, and it really doesnt bother me in terms of gameplay. It only bothers me in terms of logic because it makes no sense to put your least interactive permanents closest to your opponents and your most interactive permanents farthest from the permanents they will actually be interacting with. I think it is counterintuitive and a greater chance of stuffing up (from both sides of the table) and creating feel bad moments. Thats in addition to having it so much harder for spectators.
TL DR - play with you lands in front if you want, i wont complain, i just think it makes you look like an idiot :)
Quote from: mickeven on September 05, 2015, 10:57:57 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on September 05, 2015, 10:45:45 PM
I typically play lands in front and I keep my dorks with my creatures.
Played a guy last night who was returning to magic and said "Wow, I didn't know anyone still played like that."
He got confused at one point when I mentioned an Exalted trigger because he didn't notice my {Noble Heirarch} somehow. I immediately apologized and switched to lands in back to make things easier on him - he's already stressed returning after a few years, no reason for my play style to add to it.
good on you homie. i think thats what it should be about. camaraderie first, unless you a playing competitive of course.
Even at higher than FNM I'd like to know it was me that won, not that the way I organize my permanents won.
Seeing how pros have played this way for years and it was mainly confusion for the audience....pay attention to board state
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on September 06, 2015, 04:30:45 PM
Seeing how pros have played this way for years and it was mainly confusion for the audience....pay attention to board state
I can't find the cartoon online, but there's a hilarious one of Adrian Sullivan (notorious for playing everything upside down facing opponent and lands in front) playing mtgo with his laptop upside down.
My biggest thing is that if it's not in front of the lands, I have a difficult time reading the card. I don't memorize every card and it's abilities. And I find that those people get more peeved at me for asking "Can I see the card?" I have also seen players cheat by putting their hands over the cards to, not fully cover them up, but obfuscate them.
If your opponent leaves the creatures in the same place but puts the lands behind them, you'll have the same issue.
So your issue is that cards not at the edge of the playmat are hard to read, not that lands in front makes creatures hard to read.
Quote from: griffin131 on September 08, 2015, 11:10:52 AM
If your opponent leaves the creatures in the same place but puts the lands behind them, you'll have the same issue.
So your issue is that cards not at the edge of the playmat are hard to read, not that lands in front makes creatures hard to read.
We don't need to read lands, generally. Standard doesn't care till man land re-release, and even then most opponents are nice enough to separate them.
So how do you feel about people who use foreign cards?
For me it's not usually a big deal as I memorize cards pretty easily. But yes, it does bug me, especially at lower levels of play as people are less experienced with cards so it's confusing.
Honestly I'm not one for "swagging out" decks anyways.
Foreign cards are perfectly fine by me. I just feel that if you are going to play foreign cards, be prepared to be constantly asked what they do. Its a little rough on new players, as this opens the door for cheaters to lie about what a card is and take advantage of the situation, but unfortunately that cannot be helped. And in my experience most people arent cheaters, and the ones who are a bit shady are known for it at their lgs and there is usually at least one other person close enough to notice if any new players are being taken advantage of. We all gotta take care of each other like that. We were all new once.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on September 08, 2015, 09:28:09 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on September 08, 2015, 11:10:52 AM
If your opponent leaves the creatures in the same place but puts the lands behind them, you'll have the same issue.
So your issue is that cards not at the edge of the playmat are hard to read, not that lands in front makes creatures hard to read.
We don't need to read lands, generally. Standard doesn't care till man land re-release, and even then most opponents are nice enough to separate them.
So you missed my point?
People are saying that they have a problem reading cards if arranged like this:
Lands
Dudes
Empty space
If you arrange it:
Empty space
Dudes
Lands
There's the same amount of distance between your opponent and the dudes. But somehow only the first one gets complaints.
This argument got weird lol but this is how most (if not all) of the lands first PPP play
Say my opponent is here.
Opponents crappy cards ;)
Lands
Nonland perms
Empty space (usually where I put my facedown hand)
End of table
Me.
Play mats are big and you can have 3-4 rows of cards on you mat so this layout is perfectly fine.
Quote from: Mattao19 on September 09, 2015, 10:45:37 AM
This argument got weird lol but this is how most (if not all) of the lands first PPP play
Say my opponent is here.
Opponents crappy cards ;)
Lands
Nonland perms
Empty space (usually where I put my facedown hand)
End of table
Me.
Play mats are big and you can have 3-4 rows of cards on you mat so this layout is perfectly fine.
So sayeth you...
I wonder if anyone plays lands on the right side of a playmat and creatures on the left
I like to actually mix them up together to really annoy people
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on September 09, 2015, 12:36:17 PM
I like to actually mix them up together to really annoy people
You should shuffle them at untap and relay them out randomly
I only play on glass tables and place all my permanents face down (morphs I play face up) so if you wanna see my permanents you gotta look under the table. also, Im always wearing a kilt. (okay, I dont. but I should!)
Quote from: GlowackAttack on September 09, 2015, 10:04:03 AM
But that's not how people organize it. People are not filling the "empty space" with lands. They're keeping that empty space and switching the lands and dudes... its a nice try but invalid.
Lands
Dudes
Empty space
Is really
Dudes
Lands
Empty space
Nobody freaking has their lands touch the opponents cards....
I play with my lands at the top of my playmat and dudes right under. Empty space for hand, etc under that.
Edited to add:
And my point was that if someone did that (put empty space at the top of the mat) no one would complain because he's lands in back. And yet the permanents you "care about" are the same distance away.
Also, when I switch around (for my opponents comfort if they complain) I do just put my lands behind my dudes... My dudes don't change position on the mat.
Quote from: Indianslayer on September 09, 2015, 12:28:44 PM
I wonder if anyone plays lands on the right side of a playmat and creatures on the left
Me and my friends do that of we are tight on space... And one of my friends has to start stacking his elve tokens ontop of his forests :P
I have a friend that plays lands on the right 45 degree angle tap. It's weird but he keeps different lands separate and normally plays mono colour.
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on September 08, 2015, 11:54:33 PM
Foreign cards are perfectly fine by me. I just feel that if you are going to play foreign cards, be prepared to be constantly asked what they do. Its a little rough on new players, as this opens the door for cheaters to lie about what a card is and take advantage of the situation, but unfortunately that cannot be helped. And in my experience most people arent cheaters, and the ones who are a bit shady are known for it at their lgs and there is usually at least one other person close enough to notice if any new players are being taken advantage of. We all gotta take care of each other like that. We were all new once.
A little off topic but this reminds me of a scenario I've seen a few times: New player, has never seen the card {Cryptic Command} before. Opponent plays a full art Cryptic, and tells the newer player what the card does. Newer player gives him the "f-ing a-hole" face and follows it up with a "No really, what does it do?"
I know it was made as a joke, but it's so ridiculous 😆. "Um, this card does everything.".
Cryptic command
Instant
1 colourless, 3 blue
Choose 2:
- you win the game
- you win the game
- your opponent loses the game
- your opponent loses the game
That is what it does.
Quote from: bravado883 on September 11, 2015, 11:41:11 AM
Ewww, not a big fan of the 45 degree tap unless the player is really good at making sure his or her lands are always straight when untapped. I have a buddy who does that and I'm constantly asking him what land is tapped/untapped.
This^ the 45 degree just tilts me lol
Ugh 45 degree tap is annoying
I always ask - is that tapped ?
You guys sound really hypocritical now. You complain about the 45 degree tap cause it can be confusing and your not sure what is or is not tapped and it is annoying to have to ask about it.
when afew pages ago this topic was filled with, "get gud", keep track of your oppoenents board state. Not my fault your confused.
I know this is gonna get negged, but hopefully one of you will realize i am right about how hypocritical this is.
Not hypocritical at all actually lands I. Front creates 0 confusion. Whereas tapping 45 degree tapping creates the "oh that wasn't tapped" confusion
When people Retap 45 degree angle lands 😒
Different compared to someone who has lands in front, those lands you know for sure are untapped, whereas then 45 tap could be someone forgetting to untap properly when they are in a rush. It's like - is your caryatid tapped or not?
Not saying it doesn't but doing stuff like mixing land and mana dorks creates the same confusing of "oh yeah i have a blocker"
Quote from: redwolv on September 11, 2015, 05:32:03 PM
Not saying it doesn't but doing stuff like mixing land and mana dorks creates the same confusing of "oh yeah i have a blocker"
That's all Muggy lol (between you and me he's kind of krazy ;))
They're very good at straightening it out. Very very good.
Quote from: Mattao19 on September 11, 2015, 05:28:12 PM
Not hypocritical at all actually lands I. Front creates 0 confusion. Whereas tapping 45 degree tapping creates the "oh that wasn't tapped" confusion
Actually, it is hypocritical because confusing the board state was the same argument made. Even if the board state doesn't seem confusing to you with lands in front doesn't mean it isn't for your opponent. Maybe 45 degree tap isn't confusing for the player doing it, just like lands in front isn't for you, but the opponent can find it very confusing.
Same argument, different situation. You have to realize that the game isn't played just for you. Making things harder for your opponent to understand and see is trying to create unfair advantages (even if you don't realize it) and should be in the same line as cheating.
On another note, 45 degree tap is soooo sketch. I have always found it lazy and at my old lgs we had a guy that did it so he could cheat without anyone noticing.