Dropping from a draft.

[Dmreiss]

Likely absurd, I agree. 3 money packs Ina row is extremely unlikely. What if they just don't like their cards and keep getting packs until they get a rare they want. Not just money cards, but playable to their preferred style. Allowing mulligans or reserving your second draw lets too much crap to take place.

[Rass]

Likely absurd, I agree. 3 money packs Ina row is extremely unlikely. What if they just don't like their cards and keep getting packs until they get a rare they want. Not just money cards, but playable to their preferred style. Allowing mulligans or reserving your second draw lets too much crap to take place.

Because you don't let them mulligan if they get a rare they don't like.

[Dmreiss]

So now there are rules on mulliganing? How are those rules enforced?

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

As much as i dont like the drop part, since i will never get my way where you arent allowed to, ill grudgingly agree to the take a card and pass the rest or drop solution. At no time do players have a right to demand a new pack, and in my opinion tournament organisers shouldnt be giving in by giving people new packs if they want to keep their first packs. Reminds me too much of giving in to spoilt kids when they throw a tantrum. For those that want to get a replacement pack and keep drafting, that is the equivalent of having your cake and eating it too. Apparently you can't do that

[MacheteMable]

How would you feel if someone has an emergency and has to leave in the middle of drafting? Same issue, different circumstance.

Same as I feel about pack mulligan. If you have to leave, you have to leave. You make the choice to pick up ur cards and exit the game. And to cover this question before someone asks me, if I crack a huge pack, I fully expect to have to sit out the tourney if I keep it. I chose to not draft that pack, therefore. It adhering to the design of the format, so I am auto disqualified. Because I made the choice that the contents of this pack are worth more than the possible top prize.

This is exactly it! It's either play or take your packs. Completely fair.

[Rass]

So now there are rules on mulliganing? How are those rules enforced?

Ok basically to my knowledge there are no real rules about mulligans of packs. But in certain games there are unwritten rules. This tends to be one. I'm not saying it right or wrong. I'm not gonna tell you how to play. I'm just expressing my experiences and how the places I go deal with drafting. If I go to a new place I would ask them first if this has occurred and how they deal with it. Me personally I enjoy drafting. The place I go usually gives prize support to the top 50%. We all agree that if you hit two money cards you can buy a replacement pack. We all would love to see everyone buy replacement packs in the draft (player feel happy about hitting money and the store sells more packs). You can choose not to participate at places that allow people to buy replacement packs. I just find it more fun to have people playing instead of watching. If a guy next to me pulled an urgin and foil urgin I don't feel I'm entitled to one of them. Good for him buy a new pack and let's get this draft on with.

[LinkCelestrial]

I don't understand the people that don't advocate swapping the pack. I disagree with the mulligan thing as that could just get way too sketchy. Can somebody please explain why you should have to drop if you take the money cards?

[Dsx Cherno]

I don't understand the people that don't advocate swapping the pack. I disagree with the mulligan thing as that could just get way too sketchy. Can somebody please explain why you should have to drop if you take the money cards?

In my opinion, it compromises the premise behind the draft. The format is that you crack the pack, assess it, and take one card, and pass it on. No matter what's in the pack. Once all the sets have been cracked and fully passed around, what you're left with is what you keep. Part of the strategy is supposed to be whether you grab up the rare, or the card that you need to seal ur deck.

It just seems to me that card value is more important than game value, and wizards isn't willing to tell the players that they need to decide whether it's more important to get that extra rare, or play the game. And of course the shops are more than willing to sell you extra packs.

I don't blame the shops. I blame the players to the level that they let greed dictate the game. I understand it, but I don't like it. And I definitely blame wizards, but I understand they aren't willing to make hard lines like that, cause they don't want to risk MTG ending up like other card games and fading into complete obscurity

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

I don't understand the people that don't advocate swapping the pack. I disagree with the mulligan thing as that could just get way too sketchy. Can somebody please explain why you should have to drop if you take the money cards?

In my opinion, it compromises the premise behind the draft. The format is that you crack the pack, assess it, and take one card, and pass it on. No matter what's in the pack. Once all the sets have been cracked and fully passed around, what you're left with is what you keep. Part of the strategy is supposed to be whether you grab up the rare, or the card that you need to seal ur deck.

It just seems to me that card value is more important than game value, and wizards isn't willing to tell the players that they need to decide whether it's more important to get that extra rare, or play the game. And of course the shops are more than willing to sell you extra packs.

I don't blame the shops. I blame the players to the level that they let greed dictate the game. I understand it, but I don't like it. And I definitely blame wizards, but I understand they aren't willing to make hard lines like that, cause they don't want to risk MTG ending up like other card games and fading into complete obscurity

More or less this. Plus, this is not what wizards intended when they introduced the draft format. For starters, they make no money from the secondary market, nor is it in their control. Therefore as far as they are concerned the 'price' of individual cards are arbitrary. They dont have rules that allow it because it isnt a part of the game. And to get really technical, there is a time limit for each pick of the draft. Which will be exceeded if new packs have to get purchased etc  Then there is the moral aspect. I dont think its very flattering for a person if they think the rules dont apply to them.  If wizards wanted it to be allowed there would be a rule that allows it. Call it what you want, and whether the store allows it or not (technically an unsanctioned event if they allow it), its against the rules.

[LinkCelestrial]

But it doesn't actually change anything. They keep the cards and cannot use them in the draft. Wether they dropped or were allowed to buy a new pack doesn't change that.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

Thats irrelevant, if not 100% true. Yes the replacement pack is just as random, its not the pack it was meant to be. Therefore everyones draft decks have been compromised, if only by the fact that its not what it was meant to be. Different packs do vary in power level by cards and even by colour, if only slightly.

Furthermore, even if it was the case that nothing was changed, it still violates the rules. No matter the setting, social or competitive, if you play a game then you are expected to follow its rules. If you are participating in a non sanctioned draft and the rules allow for a pack mulligan, by all means do it. But in a sanctioned fnm draft it is against the rules and shouldnt be allowed.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

Furthermore, i apologise if i come across as snarky. I am just very passionate about fairness for everyone and  rules being adhered to and no one being above them.

[Dsx Cherno]

I'm willing to admit that's prism is flawed. I always play with absolute tourney level competitiveness. It's where I have the most fun. All the people I play with know and accept that. Any deck, any format, I'm having a blast going balls to the wall. I've always had the mentality that I build decks to lose friends, not make them.

[LinkCelestrial]

Thats irrelevant, if not 100% true. Yes the replacement pack is just as random, its not the pack it was meant to be. Therefore everyones draft decks have been compromised, if only by the fact that its not what it was meant to be. Different packs do vary in power level by cards and even by colour, if only slightly.

Furthermore, even if it was the case that nothing was changed, it still violates the rules. No matter the setting, social or competitive, if you play a game then you are expected to follow its rules. If you are participating in a non sanctioned draft and the rules allow for a pack mulligan, by all means do it. But in a sanctioned fnm draft it is against the rules and shouldnt be allowed.

Not the pack it was meant to be is quite possibly the weakest argument I've heard so far. As previously stated, they'd have to drop so not only would the pack that was "meant to be" be gone, the other two would be too. Ontop of that you're changing the pod size. If it's about "ruining the integrity of the draft" then you can't possibly advocate dropping as that would have even more repercussions, following your own logic.

Besides, all of us should know that in reality it's not going to make a difference. You're going to end up with some form of a deck, and there are way too many choices present for which pack the guy a seat over cracked, unless you're drawing this back to being greedy. Ontop of that if somebody is pulling a pack it has two very powerful cards that's tilt the scales in favour of whoever cracked it and whoever got it passed to them.

As for it being against the rules, agreed. If you have to drop to keep then you ought to. But as long as it's clear before the draft that swapping is allowed there should be no issue.

[particle]

I think it's quite naive to assume that dropping from a draft is significantly more impactful than a pack mulligan. Both have impacts that can be significant. And the idea that "a random pack is a random pack" is also flawed because no one is trying to mulligan bad packs. Only good "random packs" are being mulliganed. If i open a pack with two valuable and powerful cards, I am significantly affecting the draft if I pack mulligan. Now I still think it is possible to have a fair system that allows pack mulliganing, to incentivize people not to drop. However, I think it is very hard to determine what a fair value is for when you can pack mulligan. And this "open more than you could leave with" is also suspect. If everyone opens double ugin, you can expect to make that much so there's no guaranteed way to tell.