so a friend sent me an interesting reddit and i thought id share to get the communities feedback.
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2tb7bm/how_does_it_work_if_you_actually_open_an_insane/
So the basic idea is, if you are drafting can you decide youd rather keep the product in your hands and in front of you or must you relinquish the product if you want to drop.
To get more specific, the person opened a fate reforged pack with two {monastery mentor}, one foil, and a {windswept heath}.
Now the overall rules conclusion is that at any point, you can drop and keep what's in front of you. Your store has the right to ban you, but officially, the dci cannot suspend you or anything.
So then comes the moral question? What is right in this situation? Should the store owner just sell this person a new pack and continue drafting? Should he be allowed to take what's in front of him and leave, and should he be banned from the store?
Pack mulligans seem very hard to generalize as there is no hard and fast rule for what is too much value.
Dropping also certainly hurts the tournament as now the card pool will be weaker and there will be 7 man left in an 8 man pod.
Thoughts? Should wizards lets people drop? Should they force store owners to sell replacement packs? Should they ignore this and just count money?
Let me know what you think!
And mods: this is magic related so please don't move this to other discussion board.
The store owner should give the dude a hi five, and a new pack. Banning them for opening well is just dumb.
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on January 22, 2015, 09:00:18 PM
The store owner should give the dude a hi five, and a new pack. Banning them for opening well is just dumb.
The store would be banning them for leaving with the cards, not for simply opening well.
The store would still make the money, someone would get a bye, and you'd be happy. I don't see why you would have to relinquish your cards or, to a totally extreme extent, be banned from the store.
Quote from: NovusOrbis on January 22, 2015, 09:19:28 PM
The store would still make the money, someone would get a bye, and you'd be happy. I don't see why you would have to relinquish your cards or, to a totally extreme extent, be banned from the store.
So the banning wouldnt happen if the store is selling you a replacement pack. They are obviously cool with it if their selling you a pack. They would potentially ban you if you just cracked the first pack and then grabbed the other two and walked out.
Keeping the pack would be a jerk move and probably grounds for banning or and least branding yourself as a jerk.
You draft, you play by the rules...picking up just because you opened well means you don't really care about the integrity of the game and shouldn't be allowed to play again without consequence. Not worth the couple dollars you would have made. Try to win and win cards the proper way.
No I meant you keep the pack, but buy a new one. That's fair, and you get sweet pulls.
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on January 22, 2015, 09:36:12 PM
No I meant you keep the pack, but buy a new one. That's fair, and you get sweet pulls.
Actually it's not because that's not how draft works. Try to pull that and an actually tourney and you'd get banned.
Quote from: NyghtHawk on January 22, 2015, 09:37:53 PM
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on January 22, 2015, 09:36:12 PM
No I meant you keep the pack, but buy a new one. That's fair, and you get sweet pulls.
Actually it's not because that's not how draft works. Try to pull that and an actually tourney and you'd get banned.
I assumed we aren't talking about GP level competition here. They obviously won't let you do that there, but at FNM etc, it should be fine.
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on January 22, 2015, 09:41:38 PM
Quote from: NyghtHawk on January 22, 2015, 09:37:53 PM
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on January 22, 2015, 09:36:12 PM
No I meant you keep the pack, but buy a new one. That's fair, and you get sweet pulls.
Actually it's not because that's not how draft works. Try to pull that and an actually tourney and you'd get banned.
I assumed we aren't talking about GP level competition here. They obviously won't let you do that there, but at FNM etc, it should be fine.
They actually do let you, I sat next to someone who opened a foil {Brimaz, King of Oreskos} at a GP (you catalog and pass the pool), and he just got up and left. You can always do it, no matter what level (okay, I don't know about Pro Tour level...)
While I do agree that it is an immoral thing to do, I can definitely understand if someone did it, and banning seems a little excessive. I can understand not letting them draft until the next draft format, but I think kicking someone out of a store completely is overkill.
You shouldn't be drafting if you don't want to play by the rules.
If you want to just keep cards you open, buy packs and do so.
The thing is you could take that to an extreme to get a bomb rare if there was very good prize payout (for example, or if you just really wanted a bomb rare lol). How would a store control these pack "mulligans"?
You could always just rare draft...
Quote from: NyghtHawk on January 22, 2015, 10:08:28 PM
You shouldn't be drafting if you don't want to play by the rules.
If you want to just keep cards you open, buy packs and do so.
This is a quote from a Level 3 Judge:
"Nothing in the Tournament Rules or the IPG requires you to remain for the entire draft. The Tournament Rules explain what to do when a player is unwilling to continue drafting. Hint: it does not involve calling the police, confiscating their draft pool, or physically forcing them to remain.
As I said in the reddit thread on this same topic: even if you take the strictest possible interpretation of the bits on card ownership (which, as others have noted, are in a paragraph describing procedures for players bringing their own packs to draft with -- absolutely nowhere else will you find anything about card ownership), the cards the player has drafted belong to the player as of the moment they drop. You cannot force a player not to drop. The Tournament Rules do not forbid dropping during the drafting or deckbuilding portions of Limited events; in fact, we specifically have procedures (for Sealed and Draft) to handle this case.
Dropping without completing drafting is not Theft of Tournament Material. Dropping without completing pool registration and swap is not Theft of Tournament Material.
Anyone who claims it is, is wrong. Anyone who continues to argue after having the relevant sections of the IPG and Tournament Rules quoted to them (as has happened in this thread) is both wrong and dangerously stubborn.
When newer judges ask how to handle this situation -- aside from "well, call me if it ever actually happens in real life" -- the answer is invariably not to try to prevent the player from leaving, not to try to confiscate anything from the player, not to try to arrest or detain the player. This is sound common sense. If you don't want that player coming back to your store, then tell him not to come back. But you are unlikely to be happy with the results if you start trying to detain people and throwing around accusations of criminal conduct for someone who just opened awesome stuff and wants to drop and leave."
Despite anyone's opinion, and despite the douchey-ness of what you are doing, you are allowed to leave at any point of a draft and take your cards with you, it is totally legal.
Quote from: rarehuntertay on January 22, 2015, 10:13:31 PM
You could always just rare draft...
I think the issue is opening an insane pack. For example, in Modern Masters draft, you could open {Tarmogoyf} and foil {Tarmogoyf}, and that is not a pack you would want to pass.
So should wizards do anything?
Edit: by this I mean, should they encourage local stores to try to keep the player there by selling them another pack? Or just let them drop.
Quote from: particle on January 22, 2015, 09:25:13 PM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on January 22, 2015, 09:19:28 PM
The store would still make the money, someone would get a bye, and you'd be happy. I don't see why you would have to relinquish your cards or, to a totally extreme extent, be banned from the store.
So the banning wouldnt happen if the store is selling you a replacement pack. They are obviously cool with it if their selling you a pack. They would potentially ban you if you just cracked the first pack and then grabbed the other two and walked out.
Definitely a replacement pack. I didn't mean they take the other two and leave. I was thinking in my head just walk out with that one and then leave the other two to be drafted normally.
Replacement pack IMO.
But if you are for replacement packs, what's the determining factor? Should it be up to each store owner? I know some store owners near me favor their locals in other ways so i could see this affecting that.
Personally I am against replacement packs. I have no problem with someone deciding to drop and keep the pack they opened, but allowing them to buy back into the draft and still go for prize support isn't fair to the other players. With that being said, I would support allowing the other members of the draft to decide whether or not the player can buy a replacement pack by majority vote. That way a reasonable solution can be determined on a case-by-case basis by the parties most likely to be affected by the player reentering the draft.
Ill drop a tournament for $80. Every player at the table would 90% chance do the same if they opened a pack like that. Take $80 or play and take home $30?
What i am about to say is purely my opinion, not the rules, but i honestly believe this is how all events should operate.
The packs shouldnt be sold to players to draft. There should simply be an entry fee. That fee would obviously cover the cost of the packs, but not actually be 'for the packs' if that makes sense. Then just make it a store policy that you do not own the cards until after all 3 packs have been drafted. If you want to leave early you are welcome to, but you are not allowed to take any cards with you until all 3 packs have been drafted. If that means you might open an awesome pack and have to pass big cards, well bad luck. The packs werent sold to you so the cards were never yours.
I dont really care if people agree or not. I know the rules dont agree with me. This is simply my opinion. I believe that this is in the best interest of any magic community.
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 23, 2015, 01:58:19 AM
What i am about to say is purely my opinion, not the rules, but i honestly believe this is how all events should operate.
The packs shouldnt be sold to players to draft. There should simply be an entry fee. That fee would obviously cover the cost of the packs, but not actually be 'for the packs' if that makes sense. Then just make it a store policy that you do not own the cards until after all 3 packs have been drafted. If you want to leave early you are welcome to, but you are not allowed to take any cards with you until all 3 packs have been drafted. If that means you might open an awesome pack and have to pass big cards, well bad luck. The packs werent sold to you so the cards were never yours.
I dont really care if people agree or not. I know the rules dont agree with me. This is simply my opinion. I believe that this is in the best interest of any magic community.
I think this is a brilliant idea! If I had hit the big 100 I would have sent some Karma your way....
Then do it the easy way. Take the rare and foil. Then put a common back.
I ran across this when you could get a lilly and a flip garruk. I told the people before I drafted I would either not play or allow me to play and buy a new pack if that happens. Look at the god packs. Did those get drafted?
I play for fun. Pulling good mythics is nice because they are so hard to come by. So I wouldn't be upset if someone wanted to buy a replacement pack. All in all its just a game.
I'm not sure that I have a strong opinion about replacement pack. As someone who very rarely gets to draft - I have very strong opinions about people dropping drafts. By walking away from that draft, you're messing with my experience and everyone else's at that table, and I would not want to associate with you after that.
If I'm going into the draft, I'd want to understand the LGS rules for a pack open like that. And then if my option was to pick and pass or walk, I'd take the foil and move on. The draft experience is much more important to me than the greed.
Quote from: Cender on January 23, 2015, 09:13:43 AM
I'm not sure that I have a strong opinion about replacement pack. As someone who very rarely gets to draft - I have very strong opinions about people dropping drafts. By walking away from that draft, you're messing with my experience and everyone else's at that table, and I would not want to associate with you after that.
If I'm going into the draft, I'd want to understand the LGS rules for a pack open like that. And then if my option was to pick and pass or walk, I'd take the foil and move on. The draft experience is much more important to me than the greed.
While I agree with this, I don't think there is a problem showing the store owner your sick pulls, and then offering to buy another pack for the draft.
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on January 23, 2015, 09:36:18 AM
Quote from: Cender on January 23, 2015, 09:13:43 AM
I'm not sure that I have a strong opinion about replacement pack. As someone who very rarely gets to draft - I have very strong opinions about people dropping drafts. By walking away from that draft, you're messing with my experience and everyone else's at that table, and I would not want to associate with you after that.
If I'm going into the draft, I'd want to understand the LGS rules for a pack open like that. And then if my option was to pick and pass or walk, I'd take the foil and move on. The draft experience is much more important to me than the greed.
While I agree with this, I don't think there is a problem showing the store owner your sick pulls, and then offering to buy another pack for the draft.
I'm not one way or another on it. I just don't want anyone walking away from the blue moon of time I get for drafting.
I don't draft ever, but when journey came out me and my friends were opening our packs while draft was happening behind us. The store owner said, "now, if you guys haven't heard of 'god packs' ...*explaining what a god pack is*... Should you open a god pack, you have 2 options. 1, give me $3, I give you another pack and u keep what u pulled. Or 2, u pick one, and pass the pack like a boss."
In all reality, that should be allowed no matter what u pull. As long as you replace what would be missing, what is the problem?
Quote from: Noblellama on January 23, 2015, 11:40:13 AM
My lgs has the "house" rule in place.
A foil rare or foil mythic of value in the pack is the requirement for a buyout/switch.
But who determines "of value"? If anytime I open a ten dollar card, I'd rather keep it and buy a new pack, that seems really unfair to the other drafters.
Quote from: Anoobass on January 23, 2015, 12:12:27 PM
I don't draft ever, but when journey came out me and my friends were opening our packs while draft was happening behind us. The store owner said, "now, if you guys haven't heard of 'god packs' ...*explaining what a god pack is*
In all reality, that should be allowed no matter what u pull. As long as you replace what would be missing, what is the problem?
First off, wizards already gave stores info on what to do for a god pack so that's not really the question. But in terms of your second point, if we are drafting modern masters and instead of passing the regular {tarmogoyf} and picking the foil one, I simply buy a new pack and add an {adakar valkyrie}. I would say that you have significantly affected the draft in a negative way. If people just buy new packs whenever they open good value, what's the incentive to ever pass a card worth more than a booster pack?
Quote from: particle on January 23, 2015, 12:28:32 PM
First off, wizards already gave stores info on what to do for a god pack so that's not really the question. But in terms of your second point, if we are drafting modern masters and instead of passing the regular {tarmogoyf} and picking the foil one, I simply buy a new pack and add an {adakar valkyrie}. I would say that you have significantly affected the draft in a negative way. If people just buy new packs whenever they open good value, what's the incentive to ever pass a card worth more than a booster pack?
That is incorrect, the only time one would not pass the pack is if multiple cards were worth more than the pack. If you open an MM pack with a foil city of brass and tarmo, obviously the city isn't worth buying another pack, so you would pick the tarmo and pass the rest.
Let me ask you this, if instead of the traditional method of drafting where you sit next to/across from your fellow drafters, you were in isolated booths. You would have no idea that person X pulled double tarmo, he buys a new pack, grabs the Valkyrie, and passes the rest. The randomness of how magic packs works makes it so that to you and the other 6 drafters, u would have no idea of any shenanigans that happened around u yes? You would either a) assume it was a regular pack, or b) think every pack was a conspiracy that someone pulled epic value and just replaced.
My point is, if he picks up the epic pack and replaces it, it would have made no difference to the randomness of the packs than if he were to pull normally and then buy another pack that happened to be super lucky.
Quote from: Anoobass on January 23, 2015, 01:17:39 PM
Quote from: particle on January 23, 2015, 12:28:32 PM
First off, wizards already gave stores info on what to do for a god pack so that's not really the question. But in terms of your second point, if we are drafting modern masters and instead of passing the regular {tarmogoyf} and picking the foil one, I simply buy a new pack and add an {adakar valkyrie}. I would say that you have significantly affected the draft in a negative way. If people just buy new packs whenever they open good value, what's the incentive to ever pass a card worth more than a booster pack?
That is incorrect, the only time one would not pass the pack is if multiple cards were worth more than the pack. If you open an MM pack with a foil city of brass and tarmo, obviously the city isn't worth buying another pack, so you would pick the tarmo and pass the rest.
Let me ask you this, if instead of the traditional method of drafting where you sit next to/across from your fellow drafters, you were in isolated booths. You would have no idea that person X pulled double tarmo, he buys a new pack, grabs the Valkyrie, and passes the rest. The randomness of how magic packs works makes it so that to you and the other 6 drafters, u would have no idea of any shenanigans that happened around u yes? You would either a) assume it was a regular pack, or b) think every pack was a conspiracy that someone pulled epic value and just replaced.
My point is, if he picks up the epic pack and replaces it, it would have made no difference to the randomness of the packs than if he were to pull normally and then buy another pack that happened to be super lucky.
But if people did this everytime they opened value, drafts would become a lot worse. Sure if you only did it when there was double goyf pack that would be fine, but since there's no officially determined factor for when you could do this people could do it whenever they want. And to say that replacing an opened pack with goyf is equivalent to a random pack doesn't make sense. Sure it potentially has the exact same cards, but the one you opened has a hard value, whereas the pack only has potential. The pack you opened isn't random anymore and the likelihood of you replacing it with something similar are low.
It's pretty simple. Take the rare if you open a good one. If it's like foil planeswalker and fetch, then buy another pack.
In my group we have a pack mulligan rule. If you pull good cards buy a replacement booster and carry on.
I think dropping is kinda shitty.
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on January 23, 2015, 02:08:58 PM
It's pretty simple. Take the rare if you open a good one. If it's like foil planeswalker and fetch, then buy another pack.
I'm in agreement that if the pack is bonkers it's reasonable to replace it. I just think it's hard to generalize what is bonkers and what is acceptable.
Quote from: particle on January 23, 2015, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Anoobass on January 23, 2015, 01:17:39 PM
Quote from: particle on January 23, 2015, 12:28:32 PM
First off, wizards already gave stores info on what to do for a god pack so that's not really the question. But in terms of your second point, if we are drafting modern masters and instead of passing the regular {tarmogoyf} and picking the foil one, I simply buy a new pack and add an {adakar valkyrie}. I would say that you have significantly affected the draft in a negative way. If people just buy new packs whenever they open good value, what's the incentive to ever pass a card worth more than a booster pack?
That is incorrect, the only time one would not pass the pack is if multiple cards were worth more than the pack. If you open an MM pack with a foil city of brass and tarmo, obviously the city isn't worth buying another pack, so you would pick the tarmo and pass the rest.
Let me ask you this, if instead of the traditional method of drafting where you sit next to/across from your fellow drafters, you were in isolated booths. You would have no idea that person X pulled double tarmo, he buys a new pack, grabs the Valkyrie, and passes the rest. The randomness of how magic packs works makes it so that to you and the other 6 drafters, u would have no idea of any shenanigans that happened around u yes? You would either a) assume it was a regular pack, or b) think every pack was a conspiracy that someone pulled epic value and just replaced.
My point is, if he picks up the epic pack and replaces it, it would have made no difference to the randomness of the packs than if he were to pull normally and then buy another pack that happened to be super lucky.
But if people did this everytime they opened value, drafts would become a lot worse. Sure if you only did it when there was double goyf pack that would be fine, but since there's no officially determined factor for when you could do this people could do it whenever they want. And to say that replacing an opened pack with goyf is equivalent to a random pack doesn't make sense. Sure it potentially has the exact same cards, but the one you opened has a hard value, whereas the pack only has potential. The pack you opened isn't random anymore and the likelihood of you replacing it with something similar are low.
Have your store decide what the value threshold for a replacement pack is. Say, anything worth more than the prize payout that is split approximately equally between multiple cards, or something like that.
Orrrrr rare redraft? Kinda solves most problems
Quote from: Mattao19 on January 23, 2015, 02:21:33 PM
Orrrrr rare redraft? Kinda solves most problems
Not really. If you crack a pack with a foil {monastery mentor}, a regular one and a {windswept heath}, you likely will not end up with that much value even if you get first place.
Quote from: particle on January 23, 2015, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Anoobass on January 23, 2015, 01:17:39 PM
Quote from: particle on January 23, 2015, 12:28:32 PM
First off, wizards already gave stores info on what to do for a god pack so that's not really the question. But in terms of your second point, if we are drafting modern masters and instead of passing the regular {tarmogoyf} and picking the foil one, I simply buy a new pack and add an {adakar valkyrie}. I would say that you have significantly affected the draft in a negative way. If people just buy new packs whenever they open good value, what's the incentive to ever pass a card worth more than a booster pack?
That is incorrect, the only time one would not pass the pack is if multiple cards were worth more than the pack. If you open an MM pack with a foil city of brass and tarmo, obviously the city isn't worth buying another pack, so you would pick the tarmo and pass the rest.
Let me ask you this, if instead of the traditional method of drafting where you sit next to/across from your fellow drafters, you were in isolated booths. You would have no idea that person X pulled double tarmo, he buys a new pack, grabs the Valkyrie, and passes the rest. The randomness of how magic packs works makes it so that to you and the other 6 drafters, u would have no idea of any shenanigans that happened around u yes? You would either a) assume it was a regular pack, or b) think every pack was a conspiracy that someone pulled epic value and just replaced.
My point is, if he picks up the epic pack and replaces it, it would have made no difference to the randomness of the packs than if he were to pull normally and then buy another pack that happened to be super lucky.
But if people did this everytime they opened value, drafts would become a lot worse. Sure if you only did it when there was double goyf pack that would be fine, but since there's no officially determined factor for when you could do this people could do it whenever they want. And to say that replacing an opened pack with goyf is equivalent to a random pack doesn't make sense. Sure it potentially has the exact same cards, but the one you opened has a hard value, whereas the pack only has potential. The pack you opened isn't random anymore and the likelihood of you replacing it with something similar are low.
Opening value and opening double value are 2 totally different things tho, as I said a pack with a $20 card and a pack with 2 of them is different. And as for the replacement being as good, that statistically does not matter, a pack is a pack is a pack. If a draft is opened and every pack has garbage in it, does that make any less difference. Packs are designed to have bombs and such even if they are terrible. And if 1 person declines to add 2 tarmos to the draft, that's his choice and just makes the games harder for 1 person to just curbstomp.
Quote from: Anoobass on January 23, 2015, 03:42:51 PM
Quote from: particle on January 23, 2015, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Anoobass on January 23, 2015, 01:17:39 PM
Quote from: particle on January 23, 2015, 12:28:32 PM
First off, wizards already gave stores info on what to do for a god pack so that's not really the question. But in terms of your second point, if we are drafting modern masters and instead of passing the regular {tarmogoyf} and picking the foil one, I simply buy a new pack and add an {adakar valkyrie}. I would say that you have significantly affected the draft in a negative way. If people just buy new packs whenever they open good value, what's the incentive to ever pass a card worth more than a booster pack?
That is incorrect, the only time one would not pass the pack is if multiple cards were worth more than the pack. If you open an MM pack with a foil city of brass and tarmo, obviously the city isn't worth buying another pack, so you would pick the tarmo and pass the rest.
Let me ask you this, if instead of the traditional method of drafting where you sit next to/across from your fellow drafters, you were in isolated booths. You would have no idea that person X pulled double tarmo, he buys a new pack, grabs the Valkyrie, and passes the rest. The randomness of how magic packs works makes it so that to you and the other 6 drafters, u would have no idea of any shenanigans that happened around u yes? You would either a) assume it was a regular pack, or b) think every pack was a conspiracy that someone pulled epic value and just replaced.
My point is, if he picks up the epic pack and replaces it, it would have made no difference to the randomness of the packs than if he were to pull normally and then buy another pack that happened to be super lucky.
But if people did this everytime they opened value, drafts would become a lot worse. Sure if you only did it when there was double goyf pack that would be fine, but since there's no officially determined factor for when you could do this people could do it whenever they want. And to say that replacing an opened pack with goyf is equivalent to a random pack doesn't make sense. Sure it potentially has the exact same cards, but the one you opened has a hard value, whereas the pack only has potential. The pack you opened isn't random anymore and the likelihood of you replacing it with something similar are low.
Opening value and opening double value are 2 totally different things tho, as I said a pack with a $20 card and a pack with 2 of them is different. And as for the replacement being as good, that statistically does not matter, a pack is a pack is a pack. If a draft is opened and every pack has garbage in it, does that make any less difference. Packs are designed to have bombs and such even if they are terrible. And if 1 person declines to add 2 tarmos to the draft, that's his choice and just makes the games harder for 1 person to just curbstomp.
{tarmogoyf} is not even good in limited so I doubt having two would cause them to "curb stomp " any one else. But even though "a pack is a pack" if everytime someone opened more value then the expected value of an unopened pack, they are incentivized to get a new pack, which would cause some people to only have worthless packs stay in the draft. I'm not saying that would definitely happen, but without an actual rule set in stone of when you can replace the pack and when you can't, how can you stop someone from keeping their value until they open junk.
Tarmogoyf dies to sip of hemlock.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 23, 2015, 07:50:20 PM
Tarmogoyf dies to sip of hemlock.
Muggy solved it. If you're drafting triple MMA you should pass the double Tarm and draft the {Path to Exile} :P
So removable :=)
IMO
Best Option: by drafting, you agreed to play with the packs you open. No redo's, take it like a man. If you get an amazing pack, the card pool just got 20% cooler. Don't drop out, if you can't take it, don't play. Open packs on your own time. Just be happy that you aren't playing ironman with your fetchlands.
Bandaid Solution: Sell another pack, keep the cardpool underpowered, and the decks worse for the other 7 guys.
Running Away: If all you want is to open three packs and make a profit, why bother drafting at all? The name limited isn't decorative or misleading, it really means that you are (supposed to be) limited to the packs you are given.
This whole thread is what I always disliked about draft. Especially since if someone opens a Reforged pack with Foil Ugin and Regular Ugin, even if the LGS has a replacement pack policy, the rest of the group is gonna be treating him like .poo., even though they would do it too. I prefer sealed style limited for this exact reason. No cards I touch were ever meant to go to anyone else, so there's no jealous people calling shenanigans if i crack an insane pack
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 17, 2015, 12:21:44 PM
This whole thread is what I always disliked about draft. Especially since if someone opens a Reforged pack with Foil Ugin and Regular Ugin, even if the LGS has a replacement pack policy, the rest of the group is gonna be treating him like .poo., even though they would do it too. I prefer sealed style limited for this exact reason. No cards I touch were ever meant to go to anyone else, so there's no jealous people calling shenanigans if i crack an insane pack
It's not about jealous people calling shenanigans. You have the right to walk at any time and keep what you have opened - that's the rule. The question is whether it is fair to "buy back in" - or if it's better to leave the draft short one player.
If you decide to keep ur pack, sounds like you don't play. Either make the choice to draft, or make the choice to keep the pack and go home. Accept the consequences of that choice. It's unfair to everyone else that you get to reset your cards and keep an amazing pack. That's not the way he format was meant to be played. If a guy decides to keep his epic pack, I don't blame him. The payouts are small. But don't expect to still be a part of that draft. You took the mystery prize. Go home
If a pull a foil goyf + another powerful rare in a draft that I entered I would drop.
Legally by the law you have bought 3 boosters they are yours it is your choose to draft them. If you get banned that is a dick move on part of store owner.
Most well organised tournaments will just sell you another pack, or will make you open any remaining boosters, and drop from the tournement.
I think if you opened an MM pack with a foil goyf and dark confidant - most every player would understand you keeping it other than the guy you're passing to, who is mainly upset he doesn't get the confidant
"Legally by the law you have bought 3 boosters they are yours it is your choose to draft them. If you get banned that is a dick move on part of store owner. "
That's a good point. If you choose to take the whole pack, I think the owner should hand you the rest of the packs ur owed, and tell you to get up. I'm not expecting anyone to be banned from the store, but you gave up your right to play.
I think people get more frustrated with this than they should.
If you're ticked that somebody dropped because you want a chance at the money card(s) they pulled, first of all, you'd drop too by the sounds of things. Second of all that increases your shot at a bye which is a free win towards prizing. Third of all, you selfish prick. Be happy that somebody got decent pulls.
It is your right to drop just as it's your right to play. I'm personally massively in favor of just buying and cracking another pack. I'm happy, I just paid for my draft /and/ I get to play. Store is happy, I bought more stuff. Most people are happy, they still get to play.
Besides all this sometimes you need to drop. Wife goes into labour and you're going to get held there? Getting in a bad mood and just don't wanna be there? Have such a crappy deck you don't wanna waste your time? That option ought to be open. IMO standard procedure should be to just get another pack.
I fully understand needing to drop for whatever reason. I just think if ur pulling ur pack, it's a drop
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 17, 2015, 08:56:09 PM
I fully understand needing to drop for whatever reason. I just think if ur pulling ur pack, it's a drop
I agree with this. You are choosing not to abide by the rules of the game. It should be treated as a drop.
Another thing to note is that the cards in the pack are not technically yours. One card is. The rest belong to whoever is in the group.
Quote from: Munchlax on February 17, 2015, 09:21:20 PM
Another thing to note is that the cards in the pack are not technically yours. One card is. The rest belong to whoever is in the group.
Technically, yes. Legally? No. To me? No.
Quote from: Munchlax on February 17, 2015, 09:21:20 PM
Another thing to note is that the cards in the pack are not technically yours. One card is. The rest belong to whoever is in the group.
I would disagree with you on that. Let's say you crack the first pack and something happens you have to go right now. Do you leave the cards and unopened pack?
Quote from: Munchlax on February 17, 2015, 09:21:20 PM
Another thing to note is that the cards in the pack are not technically yours. One card is. The rest belong to whoever is in the group.
They are technically yours. The official ruling from wizards as stated early in this post is that a person has the right at any point in a sealed event to take the product in front of them and leave. That's why this was more of a moral question. Do you have the right to leave with the stuff according to wizards? Yes. Is it right to leave with the stuff? Up for discussion...
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 17, 2015, 08:56:09 PM
I fully understand needing to drop for whatever reason. I just think if ur pulling ur pack, it's a drop
I agree with you completely. Wanting to keep your packs is fine and good but you forfeit the right to play in that event.
I still think the best option is to ask the store owner for a new pack, buy it, put your old pack aside and continue with the draft.
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on February 18, 2015, 11:30:40 AM
I still think the best option is to ask the store owner for a new pack, buy it, put your old pack aside and continue with the draft.
I still think the best option is to establish the house rules at the start of the draft. You don't agree, you don't get to draft. Makes life so much easier.
Quote from: Cender on February 18, 2015, 12:16:34 PM
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on February 18, 2015, 11:30:40 AM
I still think the best option is to ask the store owner for a new pack, buy it, put your old pack aside and continue with the draft.
I still think the best option is to establish the house rules at the start of the draft. You don't agree, you don't get to draft. Makes life so much easier.
So true.
Quote from: Cender on February 18, 2015, 12:16:34 PM
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on February 18, 2015, 11:30:40 AM
I still think the best option is to ask the store owner for a new pack, buy it, put your old pack aside and continue with the draft.
I still think the best option is to establish the house rules at the start of the draft. You don't agree, you don't get to draft. Makes life so much easier.
Fair enough but for sanctioned events you have to make your own calls based on wizards sanctioned tournament rules.
While you may be a douche to everyone, for that time period, it shouldn't really be this big of a deal I don't think. Just keep your cards and buy a new pack.
Buying a new pack compromises the integrity of the draft.
We had this issue with a foil opening a foil clique and a normal clique in one pack of modern masters. That's an insane amount of value. I think it is justified to pick up and leave. If you're drafting and open a money rare or foil out of your colors rare draft.
7 person pod vs 8 isn't a big change. Especially at fnm. Just enjoy the freaking game and be happy for the guy getting a bomb pack and forfeiting his playtime. He feels like he won the lottery and rightly so.
Quote from: MacheteMable on February 19, 2015, 01:58:52 PM
Buying a new pack compromises the integrity of the draft.
We had this issue with a foil opening a foil clique and a normal clique in one pack of modern masters. That's an insane amount of value. I think it is justified to pick up and leave. If you're drafting and open a money rare or foil out of your colors rare draft.
7 person pod vs 8 isn't a big change. Especially at fnm. Just enjoy the freaking game and be happy for the guy getting a bomb pack and forfeiting his playtime. He feels like he won the lottery and rightly so.
As far as I'm concerned, he got the ultra secret grand prize. If he wants a shot at the $20 prize, he needs to draft his $100 cards. Shouldn't be allowed to have both
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 19, 2015, 02:13:58 PM
Quote from: MacheteMable on February 19, 2015, 01:58:52 PM
Buying a new pack compromises the integrity of the draft.
We had this issue with a foil opening a foil clique and a normal clique in one pack of modern masters. That's an insane amount of value. I think it is justified to pick up and leave. If you're drafting and open a money rare or foil out of your colors rare draft.
7 person pod vs 8 isn't a big change. Especially at fnm. Just enjoy the freaking game and be happy for the guy getting a bomb pack and forfeiting his playtime. He feels like he won the lottery and rightly so.
As far as I'm concerned, he got the ultra secret grand prize. If he wants a shot at the $20 prize, he needs to draft his $100 cards. Shouldn't be allowed to have both
Exactly. It's fine if he wants to leave, but he can't just buy more packs until he feels like they're good to play with.
I believe an lgs ought to make clear what their policy is before drafting. If you don't agree with their policy don't draft there. However, if halfway through a draft, a player wants to pack mulligan, and the store has never discussed this situation before, unless the whole pod agrees I think it would be unfair to allow him to rebuy. And I do agree that a 7 man is much worse than an 8 man. But I still fail to see an actual way to determine a fair dollar amount for when people can pack mulligan and when they can't. Otherwise you are incentivizing players to mulligan until they hit less then the expected value.
The buy is an "issue" in that someone gets a free win and a possibility of bad breakers. Same issue as ANY tournament with an odd number of people. It really does not affect the draft environment very much. The statistics are marginal at best. 8 person pods are just for smoothness and pairings.
The issue with adding a pack is the ethics of it. If everyone can do it the draft can potentially become inconsistent and unbalanced.
How would you feel if someone has an emergency and has to leave in the middle of drafting? Same issue, different circumstance.
Quote from: MacheteMable on February 19, 2015, 04:11:55 PM
How would you feel if someone has an emergency and has to leave in the middle of drafting? Same issue, different circumstance.
Same as I feel about pack mulligan. If you have to leave, you have to leave. You make the choice to pick up ur cards and exit the game. And to cover this question before someone asks me, if I crack a huge pack, I fully expect to have to sit out the tourney if I keep it. I chose to not draft that pack, therefore. It adhering to the design of the format, so I am auto disqualified. Because I made the choice that the contents of this pack are worth more than the possible top prize.
This situation happened at fnm this week. Our event coordinator/guy who runs all the magic stuff just put a token in the pack in place of the other card he wanted and then the guy didn't get to take a second card from the pack. Overall, I think that this is something up to store owners, but I think that buying a new pack is fair.
Quote from: DimirOverlord1300 on February 19, 2015, 05:21:25 PM
This situation happened at fnm this week. Our event coordinator/guy who runs all the magic stuff just put a token in the pack in place of the other card he wanted and then the guy didn't get to take a second card from the pack. Overall, I think that this is something up to store owners, but I think that buying a new pack is fair.
I'm confused on this.
Quote from: DimirOverlord1300 on February 19, 2015, 05:21:25 PM
This situation happened at fnm this week. Our event coordinator/guy who runs all the magic stuff just put a token in the pack in place of the other card he wanted and then the guy didn't get to take a second card from the pack. Overall, I think that this is something up to store owners, but I think that buying a new pack is fair.
So he "drafted" that card, in the sense that he only grabbed that card from that pack? Why didn't he just legitimately grab that card, and just not use it, if it's an issue of damaging the card? I think I'm missing part of the puzzle
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 19, 2015, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: DimirOverlord1300 on February 19, 2015, 05:21:25 PM
This situation happened at fnm this week. Our event coordinator/guy who runs all the magic stuff just put a token in the pack in place of the other card he wanted and then the guy didn't get to take a second card from the pack. Overall, I think that this is something up to store owners, but I think that buying a new pack is fair.
So he "drafted" that card, in the sense that he only grabbed that card from that pack? Why didn't he just legitimately grab that card, and just not use it, if it's an issue of damaging the card? I think I'm missing part of the puzzle
There were two money cards. He used his P1 for the first money card, they put a token in for the second money card and he sacrificed his P2 to take the token, but was guaranteed the two money cards.
Quote from: griffin131 on February 19, 2015, 06:09:05 PM
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 19, 2015, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: DimirOverlord1300 on February 19, 2015, 05:21:25 PM
This situation happened at fnm this week. Our event coordinator/guy who runs all the magic stuff just put a token in the pack in place of the other card he wanted and then the guy didn't get to take a second card from the pack. Overall, I think that this is something up to store owners, but I think that buying a new pack is fair.
So he "drafted" that card, in the sense that he only grabbed that card from that pack? Why didn't he just legitimately grab that card, and just not use it, if it's an issue of damaging the card? I think I'm missing part of the puzzle
There were two money cards. He used his P1 for the first money card, they put a token in for the second money card and he sacrificed his P2 to take the token, but was guaranteed the two money cards.
Ah. I gotcha. I gotta say I would be pissed if I was next for that pack. But if that's what the LGS felt was right, then cool. It sounds like they have had it come up before.
Quote from: griffin131 on February 19, 2015, 06:09:05 PM
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 19, 2015, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: DimirOverlord1300 on February 19, 2015, 05:21:25 PM
This situation happened at fnm this week. Our event coordinator/guy who runs all the magic stuff just put a token in the pack in place of the other card he wanted and then the guy didn't get to take a second card from the pack. Overall, I think that this is something up to store owners, but I think that buying a new pack is fair.
So he "drafted" that card, in the sense that he only grabbed that card from that pack? Why didn't he just legitimately grab that card, and just not use it, if it's an issue of damaging the card? I think I'm missing part of the puzzle
There were two money cards. He used his P1 for the first money card, they put a token in for the second money card and he sacrificed his P2 to take the token, but was guaranteed the two money cards.
That's kinda shitty. The reason they are money is because they are good. Not only do they get good cards to use they also get a chance at prize packs with two good cards. Especially if they are good cards that can work good together.
Quote from: griffin131 on February 19, 2015, 06:09:05 PM
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 19, 2015, 05:58:15 PM
Quote from: DimirOverlord1300 on February 19, 2015, 05:21:25 PM
This situation happened at fnm this week. Our event coordinator/guy who runs all the magic stuff just put a token in the pack in place of the other card he wanted and then the guy didn't get to take a second card from the pack. Overall, I think that this is something up to store owners, but I think that buying a new pack is fair.
So he "drafted" that card, in the sense that he only grabbed that card from that pack? Why didn't he just legitimately grab that card, and just not use it, if it's an issue of damaging the card? I think I'm missing part of the puzzle
There were two money cards. He used his P1 for the first money card, they put a token in for the second money card and he sacrificed his P2 to take the token, but was guaranteed the two money cards.
Then what is the point of drafting. Why don't I just "reserve" every card I want in each pack and replace them with tokens?
Quote from: ConanEdo on February 19, 2015, 06:37:11 PM
Again, you all aren't reading, you get a pack mulligan if the value of either one of two cards would exceed what you could potentially win. If you want to do anything else, it's up to TO and other players. Personally, I operate under the don't be a dick principle and feel that of someone got some sweet pulls, they can keep them and grab another pack. Doesn't bother me, a it's a casual FNM event where the goal is to have fun, not worry about some bullshìt about draft integrity.
I am reading the posts. I don't agree with the idea of mulligan a pack. It is not fair to the other players in the draft. Now you add in the idea of picking two cards and replacing with a token and you are messing with the system even more. Where does it end?
Take a card and pass the pack or drop. Simple, and not being a dick.
Quote from: ConanEdo on February 19, 2015, 07:04:10 PM
Quote from: Dmreiss on February 19, 2015, 06:55:22 PM
Quote from: ConanEdo on February 19, 2015, 06:37:11 PM
Again, you all aren't reading, you get a pack mulligan if the value of either one of two cards would exceed what you could potentially win. If you want to do anything else, it's up to TO and other players. Personally, I operate under the don't be a dick principle and feel that of someone got some sweet pulls, they can keep them and grab another pack. Doesn't bother me, a it's a casual FNM event where the goal is to have fun, not worry about some bullshìt about draft integrity.
I am reading the posts. I don't agree with the idea of mulligan a pack. It is not fair to the other players in the draft. Now you add in the idea of picking two cards and replacing with a token and you are messing with the system even more. Where does it end?
Take a card and pass the pack or drop. Simple, and not being a dick.
The tokens solution is bullshit as well, granted. How is it not fair? They wouldn't have received the cards if the player dropped, so they're not losing anything, and if anything they're gaining by having another set of packs to pull from.
What if that next pack is better? Do they keep going back to the well until they get a pack that is lackluster enough they don't want any of the cards? The more crap you allow the worse the draft gets where it doesn't even matter anymore.
Tack a card and pass the pack or drop. Simple as everyone understands the rules.
Likely absurd, I agree. 3 money packs Ina row is extremely unlikely. What if they just don't like their cards and keep getting packs until they get a rare they want. Not just money cards, but playable to their preferred style. Allowing mulligans or reserving your second draw lets too much crap to take place.
Quote from: Dmreiss on February 19, 2015, 07:33:21 PM
Likely absurd, I agree. 3 money packs Ina row is extremely unlikely. What if they just don't like their cards and keep getting packs until they get a rare they want. Not just money cards, but playable to their preferred style. Allowing mulligans or reserving your second draw lets too much crap to take place.
Because you don't let them mulligan if they get a rare they don't like.
So now there are rules on mulliganing? How are those rules enforced?
As much as i dont like the drop part, since i will never get my way where you arent allowed to, ill grudgingly agree to the take a card and pass the rest or drop solution. At no time do players have a right to demand a new pack, and in my opinion tournament organisers shouldnt be giving in by giving people new packs if they want to keep their first packs. Reminds me too much of giving in to spoilt kids when they throw a tantrum. For those that want to get a replacement pack and keep drafting, that is the equivalent of having your cake and eating it too. Apparently you can't do that ;)
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 19, 2015, 05:13:18 PM
Quote from: MacheteMable on February 19, 2015, 04:11:55 PM
How would you feel if someone has an emergency and has to leave in the middle of drafting? Same issue, different circumstance.
Same as I feel about pack mulligan. If you have to leave, you have to leave. You make the choice to pick up ur cards and exit the game. And to cover this question before someone asks me, if I crack a huge pack, I fully expect to have to sit out the tourney if I keep it. I chose to not draft that pack, therefore. It adhering to the design of the format, so I am auto disqualified. Because I made the choice that the contents of this pack are worth more than the possible top prize.
This is exactly it! It's either play or take your packs. Completely fair.
Quote from: Dmreiss on February 19, 2015, 08:55:17 PM
So now there are rules on mulliganing? How are those rules enforced?
Ok basically to my knowledge there are no real rules about mulligans of packs. But in certain games there are unwritten rules. This tends to be one. I'm not saying it right or wrong. I'm not gonna tell you how to play. I'm just expressing my experiences and how the places I go deal with drafting. If I go to a new place I would ask them first if this has occurred and how they deal with it. Me personally I enjoy drafting. The place I go usually gives prize support to the top 50%. We all agree that if you hit two money cards you can buy a replacement pack. We all would love to see everyone buy replacement packs in the draft (player feel happy about hitting money and the store sells more packs). You can choose not to participate at places that allow people to buy replacement packs. I just find it more fun to have people playing instead of watching. If a guy next to me pulled an urgin and foil urgin I don't feel I'm entitled to one of them. Good for him buy a new pack and let's get this draft on with.
I don't understand the people that don't advocate swapping the pack. I disagree with the mulligan thing as that could just get way too sketchy. Can somebody please explain why you should have to drop if you take the money cards?
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on February 19, 2015, 10:52:32 PM
I don't understand the people that don't advocate swapping the pack. I disagree with the mulligan thing as that could just get way too sketchy. Can somebody please explain why you should have to drop if you take the money cards?
In my opinion, it compromises the premise behind the draft. The format is that you crack the pack, assess it, and take one card, and pass it on. No matter what's in the pack. Once all the sets have been cracked and fully passed around, what you're left with is what you keep. Part of the strategy is supposed to be whether you grab up the rare, or the card that you need to seal ur deck.
It just seems to me that card value is more important than game value, and wizards isn't willing to tell the players that they need to decide whether it's more important to get that extra rare, or play the game. And of course the shops are more than willing to sell you extra packs.
I don't blame the shops. I blame the players to the level that they let greed dictate the game. I understand it, but I don't like it. And I definitely blame wizards, but I understand they aren't willing to make hard lines like that, cause they don't want to risk MTG ending up like other card games and fading into complete obscurity
Quote from: Dsx Cherno on February 19, 2015, 11:23:33 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on February 19, 2015, 10:52:32 PM
I don't understand the people that don't advocate swapping the pack. I disagree with the mulligan thing as that could just get way too sketchy. Can somebody please explain why you should have to drop if you take the money cards?
In my opinion, it compromises the premise behind the draft. The format is that you crack the pack, assess it, and take one card, and pass it on. No matter what's in the pack. Once all the sets have been cracked and fully passed around, what you're left with is what you keep. Part of the strategy is supposed to be whether you grab up the rare, or the card that you need to seal ur deck.
It just seems to me that card value is more important than game value, and wizards isn't willing to tell the players that they need to decide whether it's more important to get that extra rare, or play the game. And of course the shops are more than willing to sell you extra packs.
I don't blame the shops. I blame the players to the level that they let greed dictate the game. I understand it, but I don't like it. And I definitely blame wizards, but I understand they aren't willing to make hard lines like that, cause they don't want to risk MTG ending up like other card games and fading into complete obscurity
More or less this. Plus, this is not what wizards intended when they introduced the draft format. For starters, they make no money from the secondary market, nor is it in their control. Therefore as far as they are concerned the 'price' of individual cards are arbitrary. They dont have rules that allow it because it isnt a part of the game. And to get really technical, there is a time limit for each pick of the draft. Which will be exceeded if new packs have to get purchased etc Then there is the moral aspect. I dont think its very flattering for a person if they think the rules dont apply to them. If wizards wanted it to be allowed there would be a rule that allows it. Call it what you want, and whether the store allows it or not (technically an unsanctioned event if they allow it), its against the rules.
But it doesn't actually change anything. They keep the cards and cannot use them in the draft. Wether they dropped or were allowed to buy a new pack doesn't change that.
Thats irrelevant, if not 100% true. Yes the replacement pack is just as random, its not the pack it was meant to be. Therefore everyones draft decks have been compromised, if only by the fact that its not what it was meant to be. Different packs do vary in power level by cards and even by colour, if only slightly.
Furthermore, even if it was the case that nothing was changed, it still violates the rules. No matter the setting, social or competitive, if you play a game then you are expected to follow its rules. If you are participating in a non sanctioned draft and the rules allow for a pack mulligan, by all means do it. But in a sanctioned fnm draft it is against the rules and shouldnt be allowed.
Furthermore, i apologise if i come across as snarky. I am just very passionate about fairness for everyone and rules being adhered to and no one being above them.
I'm willing to admit that's prism is flawed. I always play with absolute tourney level competitiveness. It's where I have the most fun. All the people I play with know and accept that. Any deck, any format, I'm having a blast going balls to the wall. I've always had the mentality that I build decks to lose friends, not make them.
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on February 20, 2015, 12:01:16 AM
Thats irrelevant, if not 100% true. Yes the replacement pack is just as random, its not the pack it was meant to be. Therefore everyones draft decks have been compromised, if only by the fact that its not what it was meant to be. Different packs do vary in power level by cards and even by colour, if only slightly.
Furthermore, even if it was the case that nothing was changed, it still violates the rules. No matter the setting, social or competitive, if you play a game then you are expected to follow its rules. If you are participating in a non sanctioned draft and the rules allow for a pack mulligan, by all means do it. But in a sanctioned fnm draft it is against the rules and shouldnt be allowed.
Not the pack it was meant to be is quite possibly the weakest argument I've heard so far. As previously stated, they'd have to drop so not only would the pack that was "meant to be" be gone, the other two would be too. Ontop of that you're changing the pod size. If it's about "ruining the integrity of the draft" then you can't possibly advocate dropping as that would have even more repercussions, following your own logic.
Besides, all of us should know that in reality it's not going to make a difference. You're going to end up with some form of a deck, and there are way too many choices present for which pack the guy a seat over cracked, unless you're drawing this back to being greedy. Ontop of that if somebody is pulling a pack it has two very powerful cards that's tilt the scales in favour of whoever cracked it and whoever got it passed to them.
As for it being against the rules, agreed. If you have to drop to keep then you ought to. But as long as it's clear before the draft that swapping is allowed there should be no issue.
I think it's quite naive to assume that dropping from a draft is significantly more impactful than a pack mulligan. Both have impacts that can be significant. And the idea that "a random pack is a random pack" is also flawed because no one is trying to mulligan bad packs. Only good "random packs" are being mulliganed. If i open a pack with two valuable and powerful cards, I am significantly affecting the draft if I pack mulligan. Now I still think it is possible to have a fair system that allows pack mulliganing, to incentivize people not to drop. However, I think it is very hard to determine what a fair value is for when you can pack mulligan. And this "open more than you could leave with" is also suspect. If everyone opens double ugin, you can expect to make that much so there's no guaranteed way to tell.
Drop vs replacement pack.
Drop really sucks. Unless you like sitting on the side watching for 50 minutes. I hate byes.
Quote from: particle on February 20, 2015, 04:10:12 PM
I think it's quite naive to assume that dropping from a draft is significantly more impactful than a pack mulligan. Both have impacts that can be significant. And the idea that "a random pack is a random pack" is also flawed because no one is trying to mulligan bad packs. Only good "random packs" are being mulliganed. If i open a pack with two valuable and powerful cards, I am significantly affecting the draft if I pack mulligan. Now I still think it is possible to have a fair system that allows pack mulliganing, to incentivize people not to drop. However, I think it is very hard to determine what a fair value is for when you can pack mulligan. And this "open more than you could leave with" is also suspect. If everyone opens double ugin, you can expect to make that much so there's no guaranteed way to tell.
How is it niave? How does it not make sense that cutting a person and three packs makes a bigger difference than swapping a valuable pack with a random one?
I like swapping out the whole pack with a new one. That way they get to keep their power cards and not use them. For now I think it's the best option.
The other thing is that it is the way it is. If you get so hung up on the impact of people staying versus dropping versus swapping packs how on earth do you decide what socks to wear, nevermind what cards to pick when drafting. The fact is that the future is what it is, and acting on what such insignificant things will or won't change is a horrible way to spend your life, and an even worse excuse for getting mad at somebody.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on February 20, 2015, 09:21:17 PM
Quote from: particle on February 20, 2015, 04:10:12 PM
I think it's quite naive to assume that dropping from a draft is significantly more impactful than a pack mulligan. Both have impacts that can be significant. And the idea that "a random pack is a random pack" is also flawed because no one is trying to mulligan bad packs. Only good "random packs" are being mulliganed. If i open a pack with two valuable and powerful cards, I am significantly affecting the draft if I pack mulligan. Now I still think it is possible to have a fair system that allows pack mulliganing, to incentivize people not to drop. However, I think it is very hard to determine what a fair value is for when you can pack mulligan. And this "open more than you could leave with" is also suspect. If everyone opens double ugin, you can expect to make that much so there's no guaranteed way to tell.
How is it niave? How does it not make sense that cutting a person and three packs makes a bigger difference than swapping a valuable pack with a random one?
I like swapping out the whole pack with a new one. That way they get to keep their power cards and not use them. For now I think it's the best option.
The other thing is that it is the way it is. If you get so hung up on the impact of people staying versus dropping versus swapping packs how on earth do you decide what socks to wear, nevermind what cards to pick when drafting. The fact is that the future is what it is, and acting on what such insignificant things will or won't change is a horrible way to spend your life, and an even worse excuse for getting mad at somebody.
Im going to make a comparison to soccer. They also have a 'non competitive' format called in international friendly. Does that mean they are allowed to bend the rules if it nets them a monetary gain? Of course not. They still follow the rules of soccer. Maybe not the best analogy but i think my point is sufficiently made. As far people taking seriously things that you dont being a horrible way to live, well thats both offensive and arrogant. You are entitled to your beliefs without being .poo. on and so is everyone else. Bottom line, the rules dont allow it, therefore it shouldnt be done. I wont begrudge anyone for doing it if they can get away with it, but if it happens i will never draft with those people again.
I understand what you're saying in regards to the soccer example. If the LGS doesn't advocate pack swapping and it's not made clear that it's allowed before cracking packs I agree one hundred percent. However if the option is there I have no issues with it being used.
As for me "being offensive and arrogant" I'm sorry I came across that way. This is off topic but I've watched too many people go downhill off of "what if" mentalities. (Generally with people committing suicide). Myself included. What I'm saying is that acting on the impact of insignificant things is pointless. You gain nothing. If I had worn a different pair of socks today maybe I wouldn't be typing this. But what does anyone gain by thinking about that? I just can't accept such a flawed logic to support such strong bias.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on February 21, 2015, 03:18:49 AM
I understand what you're saying in regards to the soccer example. If the LGS doesn't advocate pack swapping and it's not made clear that it's allowed before cracking packs I agree one hundred percent. However if the option is there I have no issues with it being used.
As for me "being offensive and arrogant" I'm sorry I came across that way. This is off topic but I've watched too many people go downhill off of "what if" mentalities. (Generally with people committing suicide). Myself included. What I'm saying is that acting on the impact of insignificant things is pointless. You gain nothing. If I had worn a different pair of socks today maybe I wouldn't be typing this. But what does anyone gain by thinking about that? I just can't accept such a flawed logic to support such strong bias.
I get what you are saying. But the logic isnt flawed. The entire concept of a draft is 'draft with the 3 packs you have in front of you at the draft' not 'draft with the 3 packs you have in front of you unless your pack has 2 cards worth a bit of money in which case you may keep them and open another pack for the draft so you dont have to share'
On that basis, draft or drop. Dont expect the rules to get broken to accomodate your regret of drafting those packs instead of just opening them, because at the end of the day thats all it really is. Almost like a form of buyers remorse, or an investment gone bad. And to be completely honest, i believe that you already have more than you deserve by being allowed to drop and keep the entire pack.
As far as the lgs making it clear that it isnt allowed, well they shouldnt have to. One should assume that at a sanctioned event the rules are followed and that doesnt happen. If anything they should make it clear before hand if it is allowed. And for me personally, if it is allowed, the first draft that it happens in is the last draft i attend at that particular store. But that's just my opinion. Take it or leave it.