So on Blogatog someone asked, "Next weeks article is going to be about a 3rd un-set isnt it". The response was, "Ill say this. This time nex week, Blogatog (and the rest of Magic social media) will be talking about my article. : )"
I really hope it's a new un set, I've never played with one before!
Quote from: E.kann1 on August 18, 2014, 06:17:22 PM
I really hope it's a new un set, I've never played with one before!
Neither have I!!! And oh please God let it be Un3 the set of bananas!!
I hope against hope that it's what's happening.
Remember the gap in May I was talking about...
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 18, 2014, 07:05:20 PM
Remember the gap in May I was talking about...
............. Don't excite me like this bc now I'm going to be heartbroken if it's not Un3!!!
Gonna be honest, I don't much care for the unsets...
Fingers crossed! I would love nothing more in the magic world...
Last two un-sets people were going crazy about them, begging Wizards to make them, then didn't buy them :P
Conspiracy success was supposed to clear the way for a possible 3rd Un-set, but Conspiracy's numbers have only come back recently, and a 3rd Unset would have to already be in the works for it to be announced so soon.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 18, 2014, 07:41:30 PM
Last two un-sets people were going crazy about them, begging Wizards to make them, then didn't buy them :P
Conspiracy success was supposed to clear the way for a possible 3rd Un-set, but Conspiracy's numbers have only come back recently, and a 3rd Unset would have to already be in the works for it to be announced so soon.
True, I am still hoping for Modern Masters 2....
Quote from: #millsux! on August 18, 2014, 09:17:05 PM
I would much rather prefer MMS2 to UN3. However, that doesn't mean I don't want an UN3...
Same boat. But only if MM2 has fetches lol
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 18, 2014, 09:18:09 PM
Quote from: #millsux! on August 18, 2014, 09:17:05 PM
I would much rather prefer MMS2 to UN3. However, that doesn't mean I don't want an UN3...
Same boat. But only if MM2 has fetches lol
Same. I wouldn't mind either as I'd love to be able to draft mms 2, I got into drafting just a bit too late for normal mms.
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 18, 2014, 09:18:09 PM
Quote from: #millsux! on August 18, 2014, 09:17:05 PM
I would much rather prefer MMS2 to UN3. However, that doesn't mean I don't want an UN3...
Same boat. But only if MM2 has fetches lol
No! We want fetches in a standard set so the prices fall, in MM2 the price won't go down
You know things are crazy when your playbase can't wait to pull lands out of booster packs. I know from drafting Vintage Masters on MTGO it's like "ah shucks, my rare is a {Tundra}..."
Only reason I want a 3rd Un is for the lands (if they do that again). Other than that it's fun but not really worth it to me.
Omg, what if they did Un-Dual lands.
I wish they'd just do a supplemental product. Like a goofy Duel Deck or something with 2 silly planeswalkers and a bunch of un cards. Its kinda bad it takes the place of another supplemental release. While it is fun, how many boosters are people really going to crack?
Normal price, I'd seriously buy 2 boxes. Especially with un-walkers.
I already have a blue un deck, I would love to make an un commander deck if they did legendaries as well.
Quote from: Anoobass on August 19, 2014, 12:03:47 AM
Normal price, I'd seriously buy 2 boxes. Especially with un-walkers.
Me too, one to draft and one to put away
That's why they should do Duel Deck: Urza vs. Storm Crow. Put cool new uncards in each deck and sell it for $29.99. This way they don't have to force 200+ parody cards into a booster box and sell them for $4 a pack. I think they learned after being burned the last 2 times is that when it comes down to show time: people don't show up.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 19, 2014, 12:07:53 AM
That's why they should do Duel Deck: Urza vs. Storm Crow. Put cool new uncards in each deck and sell it for $29.99. This way they don't have to force 200+ parody cards into a booster box and sell them for $4 a pack. I think they learned after being burned the last 2 times is that when it comes down to show time: people don't show up.
Make it a commander Duel Deck and switch Urza with Charging Badger and we have a deal!!!!
I would love to buy a box and make a Cube of it... Grab other Un-Set cards and Conspiracy cards. It would be very fun!
Quote from: The1337Magician on August 19, 2014, 12:38:35 AM
I would love to buy a box and make a Cube of it... Grab other Un-Set cards and Conspiracy cards. It would be very fun!
I actually started building an Un cube, but I heard that Unlimited really sucks because of mechanics like Gotcha.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 18, 2014, 10:33:59 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 18, 2014, 09:18:09 PM
Quote from: #millsux! on August 18, 2014, 09:17:05 PM
I would much rather prefer MMS2 to UN3. However, that doesn't mean I don't want an UN3...
Same boat. But only if MM2 has fetches lol
No! We want fetches in a standard set so the prices fall, in MM2 the price won't go down
They will if its printed more than mm1, mm1 was not printed much, it was a test. And mm2 well be printed more
Quote from: griffin131 on August 18, 2014, 11:58:55 PM
Only reason I want a 3rd Un is for the lands (if they do that again). Other than that it's fun but not really worth it to me.
I went awsome full arts xD
Quote from: Hunteroffire9 on August 19, 2014, 10:21:23 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 18, 2014, 10:33:59 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 18, 2014, 09:18:09 PM
Quote from: #millsux! on August 18, 2014, 09:17:05 PM
I would much rather prefer MMS2 to UN3. However, that doesn't mean I don't want an UN3...
Same boat. But only if MM2 has fetches lol
No! We want fetches in a standard set so the prices fall, in MM2 the price won't go down
They will if its printed more than mm1, mm1 was not printed much, it was a test. And mm2 well be printed more
Yes, but the prices will barely fall. I want the prices to plummet! I'm talking $20-$10
ERMAGERD!!! This just happened on Blogatog:
deepdog61 said:
Hey Maro! I am so excited about next week's column that I ask my very first question: did you move the State of Design column a week earlier to make room for this announcement before KTK previews? Can't wait!
MaRo Responded:
I did.
So?
How do we know that the poster was talking about Un3
We don't know if it is about Un3, but it is an announcement so important that they shifted the entire schedule to accommodate.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 20, 2014, 01:07:34 PM
We don't know if it is about Un3, but it is an announcement so important that they shifted the entire schedule to accommodate.
True and when's this article coming out?
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 20, 2014, 01:08:28 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 20, 2014, 01:07:34 PM
We don't know if it is about Un3, but it is an announcement so important that they shifted the entire schedule to accommodate.
True and when's this article coming out?
Monday
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/95303344193/since-mondays-article-is-a-week-too-soon-for-previews
Hopefully that settles it. MODERN MASTERS 2? I'll bet on Fetchlands, {Noble Hierarch}, {Damnation}, {Liliana of the Veil} and the Eldrazi.
Those would be awesome! Gonna buy as many boxes as possible.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 20, 2014, 07:23:13 PM
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/95303344193/since-mondays-article-is-a-week-too-soon-for-previews
Hopefully that settles it. MODERN MASTERS 2? I'll bet on Fetchlands, {Noble Hierarch}, {Damnation}, {Liliana of the Veil} and the Eldrazi.
I also think it could be restructuring how standard works. Last week he asked everyone how they would want standard to work (how long things would stay in standard, how rotation would work) and the last time he asked everyone a question, it was, "what would you expect form a wedge set?" That was a week before SDCC announced Khans was a wedge block.
Pardon my ignorance, what is Grand Design State/GDS? I don't read up much on the net between homework and rehearsals...
Quote from: Spikepit on August 20, 2014, 07:41:04 PM
Pardon my ignorance, what is Grand Design State/GDS? I don't read up much on the net between homework and rehearsals...
The GDS is the Great Designer Search. They have done 2 thus far. Basically it is a competition to see who gets to join the Magic design team. Contestants have to design mechanics, build worlds, etc.
Cheers mate! That sounds like fun! In that case the announcement is a Reality TV show about the contest, like The Apprenti... No? Too far? Ok.
😜
Quote from: Dudecore on August 20, 2014, 07:23:13 PM
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/95303344193/since-mondays-article-is-a-week-too-soon-for-previews
Hopefully that settles it. MODERN MASTERS 2? I'll bet on Fetchlands, {Noble Hierarch}, {Damnation}, {Liliana of the Veil} and the Eldrazi.
Not sure about eldrazi but those others you mentioned, along with snapcaster Mage and griselbrand sound fantastic. It makes sense that they want to reprint these cards without having them available in standard.
That would make mm2 so expensive.
Quote from: Rass on August 20, 2014, 08:51:03 PM
That would make mm2 so expensive.
Yeah, but hopefully they learned their lesson and will print like 10 times more of it. $8 for a pack is a lot, $20 is crazy.
Edit: what cool commons and uncommons would we see this time around if they did Zend-present. I would hope for {Inquisition of Kozilek}, {Lingering Souls}, {Lightning Bolt}, {Tragic Slip}, {Dismember}, {Deceiver Exarch}, but honestly there aren't that many amazing ones.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 20, 2014, 07:28:01 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 20, 2014, 07:23:13 PM
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/95303344193/since-mondays-article-is-a-week-too-soon-for-previews
Hopefully that settles it. MODERN MASTERS 2? I'll bet on Fetchlands, {Noble Hierarch}, {Damnation}, {Liliana of the Veil} and the Eldrazi.
I also think it could be restructuring how standard works. Last week he asked everyone how they would want standard to work (how long things would stay in standard, how rotation would work) and the last time he asked everyone a question, it was, "what would you expect form a wedge set?" That was a week before SDCC announced Khans was a wedge block.
I had wondered that same question. I was curious if the new card design played into that somehow.
It is a topic worth exploring. Standard rotates too quickly for some, Core sets are awkward and rotate too fast. I wonder what it would be if they did change it. 3 sets and 3 cores at a time? I just don't know. What I do know is the wouldn't make a change unless it were profitable.
But let's be honest here: It's Great Designer Search 3.
- MaRo put out a podcast about getting into R&D. He records these weeks and months in advanced. They also generally do not follow any kind of pattern.
- Billy Moreno - Lead Designer on Magic 2015 left Wizards last year. To my knowledge he has not been replaced.
- MaRo insists that once a position opens up, they'll do another.
- MaRo is also Magic Head Designer, and thus would use his column to talk about design things rather then new product (unless he was spoiling it and giving it a designers perspective). His article is "Magic Magic" after all.
- They've had a sufficient amount of time to plan this GDS and probably enough time for Billy to reconsider. They're also probably approaching a situation where they could use another Designer.
The biggest problem with the theory (IMO) is that they wouldn't have to change the entire schedule to announce GDS3. The State of Design article is usually released a week later than what it was this year, so why move it to accommodate something that could have been put anywhere? I guess what I am saying is that I think it has to be something more important than GDS3, something that has a larger effect on a larger audience, but I could be wrong.
Edit: so get this, remember the May gap thing? Well Modern Masters 1 was announced in October and came out in June. Its reasonable to think that Modern Masters 2 could be announced in late August and come out in May.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 20, 2014, 11:26:35 PM
The biggest problem with the theory (IMO) is that they wouldn't have to change the entire schedule to announce GDS3. The State of Design article is usually released a week later than what it was this year, so why move it to accommodate something that could have been put anywhere? I guess what I am saying is that I think it has to be something more important than GDS3, something that has a larger effect on a larger audience, but I could be wrong.
Any of these hypothetical announcements could have been made before this window really. I guess it's just the way the timing worked out for any of them really. 2 weeks before Khans spoilers, and pushing the State of Design up a week is probably because Mark Rosewater is making this announcement, it's just how it worked out in his schedule.
Speaking of Billy Moreno, he was arrested for protesting in Ferguson (https://mobile.twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/502264543859331072). And I'm a dumb dumb, he was a Developer not a designer. So GDS3 isn't a lock.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 20, 2014, 07:44:20 PM
Quote from: Spikepit on August 20, 2014, 07:41:04 PM
Pardon my ignorance, what is Grand Design State/GDS? I don't read up much on the net between homework and rehearsals...
The GDS is the Great Designer Search. They have done 2 thus far. Basically it is a competition to see who gets to join the Magic design team. Contestants have to design mechanics, build worlds, etc.
Oh. My. Goodness. Where do I sign?
No but actually who/what do I need to follow to find out if they do this again?
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 21, 2014, 02:24:30 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 20, 2014, 07:44:20 PM
Quote from: Spikepit on August 20, 2014, 07:41:04 PM
Pardon my ignorance, what is Grand Design State/GDS? I don't read up much on the net between homework and rehearsals...
The GDS is the Great Designer Search. They have done 2 thus far. Basically it is a competition to see who gets to join the Magic design team. Contestants have to design mechanics, build worlds, etc.
Oh. My. Goodness. Where do I sign?
No but actually who/what do I need to follow to find out if they do this again?
If they do another one, I will post all the details on the app. It will probably be on the mothership if it is announced.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 21, 2014, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 21, 2014, 02:24:30 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 20, 2014, 07:44:20 PM
Quote from: Spikepit on August 20, 2014, 07:41:04 PM
Pardon my ignorance, what is Grand Design State/GDS? I don't read up much on the net between homework and rehearsals...
The GDS is the Great Designer Search. They have done 2 thus far. Basically it is a competition to see who gets to join the Magic design team. Contestants have to design mechanics, build worlds, etc.
Oh. My. Goodness. Where do I sign?
No but actually who/what do I need to follow to find out if they do this again?
If they do another one, I will post all the details on the app. It will probably be on the mothership if it is announced.
I still don't know what the mothership is ... {U}{R} just a nickname for the wizards website?
Correct
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 21, 2014, 01:18:20 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 21, 2014, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 21, 2014, 02:24:30 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 20, 2014, 07:44:20 PM
Quote from: Spikepit on August 20, 2014, 07:41:04 PM
Pardon my ignorance, what is Grand Design State/GDS? I don't read up much on the net between homework and rehearsals...
The GDS is the Great Designer Search. They have done 2 thus far. Basically it is a competition to see who gets to join the Magic design team. Contestants have to design mechanics, build worlds, etc.
Oh. My. Goodness. Where do I sign?
No but actually who/what do I need to follow to find out if they do this again?
If they do another one, I will post all the details on the app. It will probably be on the mothership if it is announced.
I still don't know what the mothership is ... {U}{R} just a nickname for the wizards website?
The whole {U}{R} thing threw me for a second, but yes, it is a nickname for the Wizards website. For those who haven't been there a while, they have a new site: Magic.Wizards.com
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 21, 2014, 01:23:44 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 21, 2014, 01:18:20 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 21, 2014, 12:42:47 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on August 21, 2014, 02:24:30 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 20, 2014, 07:44:20 PM
Quote from: Spikepit on August 20, 2014, 07:41:04 PM
Pardon my ignorance, what is Grand Design State/GDS? I don't read up much on the net between homework and rehearsals...
The GDS is the Great Designer Search. They have done 2 thus far. Basically it is a competition to see who gets to join the Magic design team. Contestants have to design mechanics, build worlds, etc.
Oh. My. Goodness. Where do I sign?
No but actually who/what do I need to follow to find out if they do this again?
If they do another one, I will post all the details on the app. It will probably be on the mothership if it is announced.
I still don't know what the mothership is ... {U}{R} just a nickname for the wizards website?
The whole {U}{R} thing threw me for a second, but yes, it is a nickname for the Wizards website. For those who haven't been there a while, they have a new site: Magic.Wizards.com
Thanks for the info. I'm now stoked no matter what it is. Though the GDS3 excites me a lot. I'm a writer and I've designed games just for fun so I'd love to give it a shot.
If it's not GDS3, which is should be considering how much more Magic Wizards has been making, wouldn't it be cool if they announced NEW Magic backs? It wouldn't add anything to the game, but would be cool. Tournament players use sleeves anyway, so that's not a big deal. It would effect casuals somewhat, because everyone will know what they draw (from which set) but they should be using sleeves anyway.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 22, 2014, 12:11:57 AM
If it's not GDS3, which is should be considering how much more Magic Wizards has been making, wouldn't it be cool if they announced NEW Magic backs? It wouldn't add anything to the game, but would be cool. Tournament players use sleeves anyway, so that's not a big deal. It would effect casuals somewhat, because everyone will know what they draw (from which set) but they should be using sleeves anyway.
thought the magic back was like the reserve list "Never to be touched!" i mean yea sleeves are fine, but i dont think wizards wants to require players to use sleeves no matter what.
Quote from: particle on August 22, 2014, 12:29:29 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 22, 2014, 12:11:57 AM
If it's not GDS3, which is should be considering how much more Magic Wizards has been making, wouldn't it be cool if they announced NEW Magic backs? It wouldn't add anything to the game, but would be cool. Tournament players use sleeves anyway, so that's not a big deal. It would effect casuals somewhat, because everyone will know what they draw (from which set) but they should be using sleeves anyway.
thought the magic back was like the reserve list "Never to be touched!" i mean yea sleeves are fine, but i dont think wizards wants to require players to use sleeves no matter what.
^^This
The article is NOT the Great Designer Search 3, from Blogatog:
meteorchestra said:
Can you give us a few topics that your article for Monday isn't about?
Maro Answered
The role of hats in world building
The difference between rats and squirrels
Who would win in a free-for-all cooking contest among members of the Pit
Alternate ideas for how my podcast might have worked
Interrupts - Where are they now?
Zones that we don't reference
The Great Designer Search 3
Quote from: Taysby on August 22, 2014, 11:45:42 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 22, 2014, 10:05:10 AM
The role of hats in world building
Crap! When is he going to get around to that???
Screw that! Now we'll never know if Matt Tabak can make a better quiche than Mark Rosewater!
I still don't rule it out. MaRo can be slippery. He could just be playing with how the question was worded and actually just spoiled it, while pretending not to spoil it. It will most likely be something design related, I don't see how it will be new product...
It's going to be about how interrupts use the command zone because someone designed a great thing about cooking
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 22, 2014, 10:05:10 AM
Maro Answered
world
world? world enchantments are coming back? {nether void} reprint? would look awesome with new border.
Quote from: particle on August 22, 2014, 06:55:11 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 22, 2014, 10:05:10 AM
Maro Answered
world
world? world enchantments are coming back? {nether void} reprint? would look awesome with new border.
Unfortunately, it's on that stupid thing card reserved list. Unless they are doing away with it...
They will announce that the reserved list will be done away with. They saw that Vintage Masters went well and will do a cardboard printing of it as well. Try and get some foil Black Lotuses :-)
Quote from: The1337Magician on August 22, 2014, 07:52:40 PM
They will announce that the reserved list will be done away with. They saw that Vintage Masters went well and will do a cardboard printing of it as well. Try and get some foil Black Lotuses :-)
I hope so believe me I do. But I really doubt it they have ppl their word and idk if they can do it w/o a lawsuit
Quote from: The1337Magician on August 22, 2014, 07:52:40 PM
They will announce that the reserved list will be done away with. They saw that Vintage Masters went well and will do a cardboard printing of it as well. Try and get some foil Black Lotuses :-)
and there adding a new color right? orange will bring the beats.
Quote from: The1337Magician on August 22, 2014, 07:52:40 PM
They will announce that the reserved list will be done away with. They saw that Vintage Masters went well and will do a cardboard printing of it as well. Try and get some foil Black Lotuses :-)
Oh lord that would be amazing. The msrb would be like 100$ a pack at least lol or that's what the lgs would sell it for.
They can't get rid of the Reserve list, even though it's hurting collectors with accurate fakes being reproduced. Fake cards cheapen the value of real ones. But they said they would not repeal the ban list, and while I know it's bad for everyone overall (including Wizards and they know it) they have to keep their promise. It doesn't matter what changed, if you make a promise you shouldn't say "well I didn't know what I know now when I promised", that is a lack of integrity. Although it may not seem like much, promises are important.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 22, 2014, 10:38:47 PM
They can't get rid of the Reserve list, even though it's hurting collectors with accurate fakes being reproduced. Fake cards cheapen the value of real ones. But they said they would not repeal the ban list, and while I know it's bad for everyone overall (including Wizards and they know it) they have to keep their promise. It doesn't matter what changed, if you make a promise you shouldn't say "well I didn't know what I know now when I promised", that is a lack of integrity. Although it may not seem like much, promises are important.
isnt there a creature that was on the reserve list but has been reprinted. cant remember name atm.
{Gaea's Cradle} and {Survival of the Fittest} were reprinted as Judge foils in an attempt to circumvent the reserve list. Also, I believe {Phyrexian Negator} was in the Duel Deck - Phyrexia vs. The Coalition. All loop holes have been sealed since that attempt by Wizards.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 23, 2014, 12:03:40 AM
{Gaea's Cradle} and {Survival of the Fittest} were reprinted as Judge foils in an attempt to circumvent the reserve list. Also, I believe {Phyrexian Negator} was in the Duel Deck - Phyrexia vs. The Coalition. All loop holes have been sealed since that attempt by Wizards.
The creature i was thinking of was {masticore}. for some reason i thought he was on the reserve list and then reprinted. guess not.
Quote from: particle on August 23, 2014, 12:23:23 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 23, 2014, 12:03:40 AM
{Gaea's Cradle} and {Survival of the Fittest} were reprinted as Judge foils in an attempt to circumvent the reserve list. Also, I believe {Phyrexian Negator} was in the Duel Deck - Phyrexia vs. The Coalition. All loop holes have been sealed since that attempt by Wizards.
The creature i was thinking of was {masticore}. for some reason i thought he was on the reserve list and then reprinted. guess not.
This is a detailing the reserve list: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Reserved_List#section_1
Some cards were taken off in 2002.
As for new color, it will be pink. Refer to {Water Gun Balloon Game} 😜
{Clone} was on the reserved list too
Magic Origins? (http://tmwatch.net/2014/03/05/wizards-of-the-coast-seeking-trade-mark-for-magic-origins/)
Quote from: Dudecore on August 23, 2014, 08:26:37 PM
Magic Origins? (http://tmwatch.net/2014/03/05/wizards-of-the-coast-seeking-trade-mark-for-magic-origins/)
Cool! Taking an angle of presenting all the sets' flavour in games and film? Oh boy, I'd bend over backwards to play a Zendikar game, Diablo III style!
Quote from: Dudecore on August 23, 2014, 08:26:37 PM
Magic Origins? (http://tmwatch.net/2014/03/05/wizards-of-the-coast-seeking-trade-mark-for-magic-origins/)
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/95499242973/any-info-about-your-article-on-monday-you-can-give
Possibly the next June set for drafting? Classic magic being reprinted (alpha set?) just maybe not the cards we want except those not on the reserve list
We don't know what it is, but I will speculate that instead of it being Modern Master 2, it's a new product to introduce new cards into the Modern format - like allied fetches.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 23, 2014, 09:04:38 PM
We don't know what it is, but I will speculate that instead of it being Modern Master 2, it's a new product to introduce new cards into the Modern format - like allied fetches.
I don't think something called Magic Origins would skip over the first 10 or so years of Magic....
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 23, 2014, 09:11:17 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 23, 2014, 09:04:38 PM
We don't know what it is, but I will speculate that instead of it being Modern Master 2, it's a new product to introduce new cards into the Modern format - like allied fetches.
I don't think something called Magic Origins would skip over the first 10 or so years of Magic....
It could do Arabian Nights -> 8th Edition, because those cards are not Modern Legal. So it could put reprints and add new cards to the format.
Modern does not need to get bigger! It needs to be smaller!
It needs more answers for {Scornful Egotist}. It won't be a legitimate format until they reprint {Swords to Plowshares} and {Force of Will}.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 23, 2014, 10:35:54 PM
It needs more answers for {Scornful Egotist}. It won't be a legitimate format until they reprint {Swords to Plowshares} and {Force of Will}.
If StP and FoW enter the format I (and hopefully) many others will quit it
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 23, 2014, 11:17:29 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 23, 2014, 10:35:54 PM
It needs more answers for {Scornful Egotist}. It won't be a legitimate format until they reprint {Swords to Plowshares} and {Force of Will}.
If StP and FoW enter the format I (and hopefully) many others will quit it
Meh, Swords is kind of OP, but blue and red are the most played colors (with {Serum Visions} and {Lightning Bolt} in the top 10 played cards, including lands) so it could actually lead to more diversity (although UWR control would DOMINATE!). As for FoW, its uber good, but only certain decks could play it. Its meh in control because you don't want to lose the card, combo usually won't be able spare the card (because you can't pitch a land) not to mention you would rather have {Pact of Negation}, and in midrange you don't really want the card, you'd rather apply more threats. TBH, I think {Counterspell} would be worse for the format.
I think FoW is probably not too bad in Modern. I know Wizards doesn't want to find out. It is powerful in Legacy and Vintage because it stops combo decks on turn 1, in Modern there really aren't combo decks that go off that early - the format is founded on that principle. Like Agrus said, {Pact of Negation} probably is better - at least more relevant. I haven't playtested it, but {Force of Will} seems like a bad 2-for-1. I know people will jam it, even though it's not that good, and I am sure it'll lead to some tapout control decks which may not be a good thing.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 24, 2014, 12:08:27 AM
I think FoW is probably not too bad in Modern. I know Wizards doesn't want to find out. It is powerful in Legacy and Vintage because it stops combo decks on turn 1, in Modern there really aren't combo decks that go off that early - the format is founded on that principle. Like Agrus said, {Pact of Negation} probably is better - at least more relevant. I haven't playtested it, but {Force of Will} seems like a bad 2-for-1. I know people will jam it, even though it's not that good, and I am sure it'll lead to some tapout control decks which may not be a good thing.
Tbh FoW is still awesome sure it's a 2-1 but it's a manaless Counterspell. Why do you think {Mental Mistep} was banned?!!
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 24, 2014, 12:55:21 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 24, 2014, 12:08:27 AM
I think FoW is probably not too bad in Modern. I know Wizards doesn't want to find out. It is powerful in Legacy and Vintage because it stops combo decks on turn 1, in Modern there really aren't combo decks that go off that early - the format is founded on that principle. Like Agrus said, {Pact of Negation} probably is better - at least more relevant. I haven't playtested it, but {Force of Will} seems like a bad 2-for-1. I know people will jam it, even though it's not that good, and I am sure it'll lead to some tapout control decks which may not be a good thing.
Tbh FoW is still awesome sure it's a 2-1 but it's a manaless Counterspell. Why do you think {Mental Mistep} was banned?!!
Mistep could be in any deck, doesn't give you card disadvantage and was in 100% of decks before banning...FoW is quite a bit more restricing. I don't know of any valid reasons to unban {Mental Mistep}, while not likely - {Force of Will} would be a bad card in Standard, and perhaps a fringe one in Modern.
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 24, 2014, 12:55:21 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 24, 2014, 12:08:27 AM
I think FoW is probably not too bad in Modern. I know Wizards doesn't want to find out. It is powerful in Legacy and Vintage because it stops combo decks on turn 1, in Modern there really aren't combo decks that go off that early - the format is founded on that principle. Like Agrus said, {Pact of Negation} probably is better - at least more relevant. I haven't playtested it, but {Force of Will} seems like a bad 2-for-1. I know people will jam it, even though it's not that good, and I am sure it'll lead to some tapout control decks which may not be a good thing.
Tbh FoW is still awesome sure it's a 2-1 but it's a manaless Counterspell. Why do you think {Mental Mistep} was banned?!!
Because any color deck could use it. FoW you still need to have blue. Kinda how {Dismember} is used in a lot of decks that play little to no black.
Quote from: Rass on August 24, 2014, 09:34:29 AM
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 24, 2014, 12:55:21 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 24, 2014, 12:08:27 AM
I think FoW is probably not too bad in Modern. I know Wizards doesn't want to find out. It is powerful in Legacy and Vintage because it stops combo decks on turn 1, in Modern there really aren't combo decks that go off that early - the format is founded on that principle. Like Agrus said, {Pact of Negation} probably is better - at least more relevant. I haven't playtested it, but {Force of Will} seems like a bad 2-for-1. I know people will jam it, even though it's not that good, and I am sure it'll lead to some tapout control decks which may not be a good thing.
Tbh FoW is still awesome sure it's a 2-1 but it's a manaless Counterspell. Why do you think {Mental Mistep} was banned?!!
Because any color deck could use it. FoW you still need to have blue. Kinda how {Dismember} is used in a lot of decks that play little to no black.
Look at Modern a ton of decks run U do you really want Twin to have a free counter?
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 24, 2014, 09:41:39 AM
Quote from: Rass on August 24, 2014, 09:34:29 AM
Quote from: Mattao19 on August 24, 2014, 12:55:21 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 24, 2014, 12:08:27 AM
I think FoW is probably not too bad in Modern. I know Wizards doesn't want to find out. It is powerful in Legacy and Vintage because it stops combo decks on turn 1, in Modern there really aren't combo decks that go off that early - the format is founded on that principle. Like Agrus said, {Pact of Negation} probably is better - at least more relevant. I haven't playtested it, but {Force of Will} seems like a bad 2-for-1. I know people will jam it, even though it's not that good, and I am sure it'll lead to some tapout control decks which may not be a good thing.
Tbh FoW is still awesome sure it's a 2-1 but it's a manaless Counterspell. Why do you think {Mental Mistep} was banned?!!
Because any color deck could use it. FoW you still need to have blue. Kinda how {Dismember} is used in a lot of decks that play little to no black.
Look at Modern a ton of decks run U do you really want Twin to have a free counter?
They already have a free counter: {Pact of Negation}. {Force of Will} isn't even that great by the time {Splitter Twin} would even want to use it. All I'm saying is it is worth Wizards looking into, but maybe it is broken.
A counterspell's power is determined by what it is able to accomplish. In legacy, it just wins games a lot of the time or at the very least sets back the combo deck A LOT. Counter the one of {Dread Return} in an Oops All Spells deck and you win, all they have to do is get another draw phase. Counter a {Show and Tell} and all of the sudden you don't have to deal with an {Emrakul, the Anus Torn} for a few turns. Countless Legacy decks fold or get set back by turns because of a well timed counterspell and that is why it's good. In modern, there really aren't that many combo decks that just straight up lose to a counter. Any deck trying to protect a combo will use {Pact of Negation} because you don't have to pitch a card and you just win this turn, no need to pay for the pact. Now let's look at the combo we are trying to stop:
Storm-even if you stop them, all it takes is a {Past in Flames} to get them back into the game
Splinter Twin-they don't even have to combo if they don't want to. It's basically a control deck.
Living End-they run 8-12 copies of cascade spells, counter the first, a second is coming.
Bloom Titan-plays {Tolaria West} and {Pact of Negation} to protect their combo
Scapeshift-runs 4 copies of it and counter magic
The only combo I think of off the top of my head that just loses to a {Force of Will} is {Ad Nauseum} combo.
Hmmm maybe a show and tell reprint :)
If it was a GDS, I would totally nominate Dudecore.
I want Un-dual decks.
Its weird though because an official announcement would be "Announcing Portal 17" or whatever.
Magic Origins could also be a Hearthstone Competitor. A kind of app/web-based version of a high-speed Magic. It would have a lot less coding complexity then Magic Online does (Programming 20 years worth of card and new mechanics 6+ times a year). It would be more accessible to a mass audience and let people play with good cards that are in digital form.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 24, 2014, 06:31:43 PM
Magic Origins could also be a Hearthstone Competitor. A kind of app/web-based version of a high-speed Magic. It would have a lot less coding complexity then Magic Online does (Programming 20 years worth of card and new mechanics 6+ times a year). It would be more accessible to a mass audience and let people play with good cards that are in digital form.
That would be awesome. How is the coding less complex though? I dont know anything about it.
Unless MTGO players could xfer their existing collections I feel that would have a backlash
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 24, 2014, 06:36:30 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 24, 2014, 06:31:43 PM
Magic Origins could also be a Hearthstone Competitor. A kind of app/web-based version of a high-speed Magic. It would have a lot less coding complexity then Magic Online does (Programming 20 years worth of card and new mechanics 6+ times a year). It would be more accessible to a mass audience and let people play with good cards that are in digital form.
That would be awesome. How is the coding less complex though? I dont know anything about it.
From what I understand, Hearthstone lacks any of the really complex coding options Magic Online has. Effects like {Aurelia, the Warleader} has for extra combat aren't coded. There are no {Sundial of the Infinite} cards. There are no creatures with Flash and other combat abilities. I haven't played the game too much, it is different then Magic. There is a market for games like Hearthstone. It's quick, easy to pick-up, less grindy and has fewer then 500 cards in it's pool. Magic has close to 15,000. Hearthstone doesn't have paper sets looming every 3 months, so it's able to be a different game. Magic Online is a super daunting endeavor, and once something is printed it is set in stone. Blizzard can still nerf, change functionality, errata a small handful of cards for competitive reason and not have problems.
I like how Hearthstone avoids memory issues, because it is digital. If a card is modified by lets say a {Pacifism} effect, it stays like that until the game is over. Magic has a stopgap of cards changing zones become fresh permanents because of these memory issues. It's also quicker, more accessible in a way Magic isn't currently. DotP 2015 was a big mistake, Hearthstone on Twitch.TV routinely has tens of thousands of views. Magic on Twitch? Hovers around 4,000 or so, maybe. Magic is quite a bit more complex, but that doesn't always mean it's more fun. Limiting the amount of cards available to a carefully curated number, and releasing that as an app/web browser game could be beneficial moving forward.
Oh! I thought you meant a revamp of Magic Online with less comolex coding. Yeah, I dont know how a Magic: the Hearthstone would work or go over. I have played Hearthstone and it is basically Magic dumbed down to the level of second graders; no instants or any interaction on you opponents turn (except wierd traps that just trigger), damage is permanent, you have an ability (like Vanguard), and you are able to attack creatures directly.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 24, 2014, 07:29:48 PM
Oh! I thought you meant a revamp of Magic Online with less comolex coding. Yeah, I dont know how a Magic: the Hearthstone would work or go over. I have played Hearthstone and it is basically Magic dumbed down to the level of second graders; no instants or any interaction on you opponents turn (except wierd traps that just trigger), damage is permanent, you have an ability (like Vanguard), and you are able to attack creatures directly.
Dude. Hearthstone is great. It may be dumbed down slightly but because of how the game is set up, literally any deck has a chance to beat any deck. The game is run off of experience. It's not run off of pay to win like I feel Magic is turning into. Also, hearthstone is way more accessible than almost any other card game. So trying to compare magic to hearthstone is like trying to compare me to you. We both have good sides. We both have bad sides. Get over it.
Sorry if I offended anyone i believe he just attacked my favourite game and I responded. Please correct me if I was wrong
/endpost
So after reading maros tumblr, he had said that tomorrow's topic is not about GDS and is not about a new un-set. He also said that it will be a " "game changer" ", and also said the name of the article starts with the letter M and ends with a S. Modern masters seems to easy, So this leads me to believe that they are either making a big change in the rules (Magic ruleS) or they are introducing a new game type...just my thoughts
Makes sense
Quote from: GlowackAttack on August 25, 2014, 09:44:47 AM
What major rules change could occur? double strike shenanigans. Like if you kill a {Goblin king} with a 2/2 double strike, an a 1/1 goblin token blocks a second 2/2 vanilla, instead of it being a goblin slaughter, everybody but the 2/2 dies. I always found it so stupid how the first strike damage kills the one giving the +1/+1 to the rest of the team, so they don't get the boost in their damage step.
I feel that it just isn't right.
It's all how you assign blockers and damage assignments...
1 hour until we know
I know it's the website but can somebody post a link it's easier for everyone
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mm/metamorphosis
EVERYONE READ THE ARTICLE! There are some HUGE changes!
Yep that was huge. Initiating fallout in 3...2...1...go.
Certainly interesting. Loving this as an EDH player, since it just means more cool toys.
That pretty much confirms that I will no longer be playing standard. Too much stuff to try to get in a shorter amount of time. Personally, I cannot justify spending money on a cards that will rotate shortly after. And no more Core Sets... So no more beginner level products? Hmmm... Guess I'll just stick to Modern
Quote from: rarehuntertay on August 25, 2014, 11:15:03 AM
That pretty much confirms that I will no longer be playing standard. Too much stuff to try to get in a shorter amount of time. Personally, I cannot justify spending money on a cards that will rotate shortly after. And no more Core Sets... So no more beginner level products? Hmmm... Guess I'll just stick to Modern
Sets rotate at 18 months at the longest, and even the shortest sets only rotate after 15 months. Basically every set is a third set or a core set. I think it will make Magic more interesting.
It will certainly shake up Standard. Removing core sets is a big step. I won't play Standard again, but from a collector standpoint and EDH player, I'm excited about new cards, acceleratored story telling and more keywords
I only see this making standard better overall. No more overly forced mechanics drug over a third set, focus on making quality cards over 2 sets
Standard is going to be a disaster area. I'm kinda looking forward to it. I think it will do what they want and keep decks changing as people constantly dig for new designs in the rotating cards.
I'm not too happy about spending more money I don't have on cards. (Who am I kidding? I love buying cards.)
I think EDH is gonna love this. So many cards so fast. Prices are most likely to go up and down quickly on any decent card as it gets played then rotates out.
My biggest concern is no core sets. Core sets have held my favourite collection of rares and always have (for me at least) commons/uncommons worth playing. I built my first ever standard deck around {Ensoul Artifact}, and everybody knows about {Gray Merchant of Ashodel}. Core sets also usually have a large amount of Planeswalkers. Who doesn't love Planeswalkers? I'm sad to see them go.
Anybody else pick up on the "line of products just for them [beginners]" what's that all about? Magic Origins perhaps? I'm expecting some variation of intro/duel decks.
Fresh from Blogatog: "We are going to be more aggressive about reprinting cards in expert sets" Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 11:29:08 AM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on August 25, 2014, 11:15:03 AM
That pretty much confirms that I will no longer be playing standard. Too much stuff to try to get in a shorter amount of time. Personally, I cannot justify spending money on a cards that will rotate shortly after. And no more Core Sets... So no more beginner level products? Hmmm... Guess I'll just stick to Modern
Sets rotate at 18 months at the longest, and even the shortest sets only rotate after 15 months. Basically every set is a third set or a core set. I think it will make Magic more interesting.
It will make things more interesting for sure, especially those people with the funds to constantly make a good to competitive deck. I really can't do that currently in the two year rotation, so shortening rotation time makes it worse. So that's why it is bye-bye standard. Which is one reason I like Modern; once you purchase your cards, they won't rotate and they will more than likely retain their value.
Quote from: rarehuntertay on August 25, 2014, 12:19:22 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 11:29:08 AM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on August 25, 2014, 11:15:03 AM
That pretty much confirms that I will no longer be playing standard. Too much stuff to try to get in a shorter amount of time. Personally, I cannot justify spending money on a cards that will rotate shortly after. And no more Core Sets... So no more beginner level products? Hmmm... Guess I'll just stick to Modern
Sets rotate at 18 months at the longest, and even the shortest sets only rotate after 15 months. Basically every set is a third set or a core set. I think it will make Magic more interesting.
It will make things more interesting for sure, especially those people with the funds to constantly make a good to competitive deck. I really can't do that currently in the two year rotation, so shortening rotation time makes it worse. So that's why it is bye-bye standard. Which is one reason I like Modern; once you purchase your cards, they won't rotate and they will more than likely retain their value.
Until that changes to
Duh duh duhhhhhhhhh!!!
Quote from: rarehuntertay on August 25, 2014, 12:19:22 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 11:29:08 AM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on August 25, 2014, 11:15:03 AM
That pretty much confirms that I will no longer be playing standard. Too much stuff to try to get in a shorter amount of time. Personally, I cannot justify spending money on a cards that will rotate shortly after. And no more Core Sets... So no more beginner level products? Hmmm... Guess I'll just stick to Modern
Sets rotate at 18 months at the longest, and even the shortest sets only rotate after 15 months. Basically every set is a third set or a core set. I think it will make Magic more interesting.
It will make things more interesting for sure, especially those people with the funds to constantly make a good to competitive deck. I really can't do that currently in the two year rotation, so shortening rotation time makes it worse. So that's why it is bye-bye standard. Which is one reason I like Modern; once you purchase your cards, they won't rotate and they will more than likely retain their value.
Its the same amount of sets, so it shouldn't change too much.
I think that changes to the format are better then their alternative - keeping it the same. Being stuck on Theros for a whole year has sucked, and now we're no closer to returning to Innistrad or a place everyone liked so much. For that reason alone I welcome to changes, let's start blowing out sets, see what people are feeling.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 01:03:50 PM
I think that changes to the format are better then their alternative - keeping it the same. Being stuck on Theros for a whole year has sucked, and now we're no closer to returning to Innistrad or a place everyone liked so much. For that reason alone I welcome to changes, let's start blowing out sets, see what people are feeling.
Just think, only a whole year more of Theros in stndard....kmn
Well I'm underwhelmed, I expected the announcement to be something I don't know more shocking or something. This is kinda eh, I don't play standard so doesn't really matter to me. Cool we get more cards a year but that's about it.
Can someone explain/sum up the article to me I didn't really get it
Quote from: GlowackAttack on August 25, 2014, 01:44:58 PM
After Khans block, they're removing the core set (m15, etx) and making a block (the three expansions that share a common theme, Theros/Born/Journey for example) only two sets long instead of three.
Simpler:
They're doing 2 Blocks a year now instead one 1 and a core set.
Thanks that makes sense
It is good to see a willingness to change, even though it leads to them making more money. More Magic all year = more gooder. The conclusion of Garruk the Veil Cursed and Liliana was kind of silly to have in a core set, it would have been nice to see it happen on Innistrad. Also, Mark Rosewater has stated that they can now be more aggressive with Reprints, which is nice
By aggressive, maybe he means repeal the Reserved List!!!!
***one can only hope 😢***
Quote from: rarehuntertay on August 25, 2014, 02:20:56 PM
By aggressive, maybe he means repeal the Reserved List!!!!
***one can only hope 😢***
Nope, he has stated many times that while he does not like or agree with the list, wizards is sticking by the list and will not be gotten rid of. Now does that mean they can't take something off of it? No because they have taken some off before, but he has made it very clear they r never getting rid of it....atleast not anytime within the next 10 or 15 years
They won't abolish or remove the reserve list. The last time it was done in 2002, they removed some effects they wanted to be able to use again, like {Clone}. Then they reprinted {Gaea's Cradle}, {Survival of the Fittest} and {Phyrexian Negator} as foils, quickly closed that loophole. They removed all the commons and uncommons the time before that. I think this by all accounts is the final form of the reprint policy.
Yes, it was a mistake at the time. All parties acknowledge that. It cannot and should not be undone.
And hopefully Magic Origins is the new player product they're adding instead of a core set each year.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
And hopefully Magic Origins is the new player product they're adding instead of a core set each year.
Its not. The core set is going to be replaced by the second set of the second block of the release year. (I guess the second set of the first block of each actual year.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 03:12:52 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
And hopefully Magic Origins is the new player product they're adding instead of a core set each year.
Its not. The core set is going to be replaced by the second set of the second block of the release year. (I guess the second set of the first block of each actual year.
Well I know the core set is being replaced by the 2nd set of the new block. So they release Magic Origins for new players, whenever. Supplemental product, or in those Intro deck spots. I meant it as in lieu of a core set.
Clash packs are probably the items for new players
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 11:29:08 AM
Quote from: rarehuntertay on August 25, 2014, 11:15:03 AM
That pretty much confirms that I will no longer be playing standard. Too much stuff to try to get in a shorter amount of time. Personally, I cannot justify spending money on a cards that will rotate shortly after. And no more Core Sets... So no more beginner level products? Hmmm... Guess I'll just stick to Modern
Sets rotate at 18 months at the longest, and even the shortest sets only rotate after 15 months. Basically every set is a third set or a core set. I think it will make Magic more interesting.
Yes, much cooler, and as a collector, it should keep value up!
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
They won't abolish or remove the reserve list. The last time it was done in 2002, they removed some effects they wanted to be able to use again, like {Clone}. Then they reprinted {Gaea's Cradle}, {Survival of the Fittest} and {Phyrexian Negator} as foils, quickly closed that loophole. They removed all the commons and uncommons the time before that. I think this by all accounts is the final form of the reprint policy.
Yes, it was a mistake at the time. All parties acknowledge that. It cannot and should not be undone.
And hopefully Magic Origins is the new player product they're adding instead of a core set each year.
was the Phyrexian negator reprint an issue?
Announce to me equalled these thoughts:
•oh is that all.
•wait, more cards for EDH and more reprints!
•hang on a second... that sooooo much more money!
(Not single thought was had about standard...)
Quote from: Spikepit on August 25, 2014, 04:45:57 PM
Announce to me equalled these thoughts:
•oh is that all.
•wait, more cards for EDH and more reprints!
•hang on a second... that sooooo much more money!
(Not single thought was had about standard...)
Haha my thought process exactly
Quote from: DimirOverlord1300 on August 25, 2014, 04:41:46 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
They won't abolish or remove the reserve list. The last time it was done in 2002, they removed some effects they wanted to be able to use again, like {Clone}. Then they reprinted {Gaea's Cradle}, {Survival of the Fittest} and {Phyrexian Negator} as foils, quickly closed that loophole. They removed all the commons and uncommons the time before that. I think this by all accounts is the final form of the reprint policy.
Yes, it was a mistake at the time. All parties acknowledge that. It cannot and should not be undone.
And hopefully Magic Origins is the new player product they're adding instead of a core set each year.
was the Phyrexian negator reprint an issue?
Yeah, collectors threw a fit.
If they reprinted things of value and devalued them many smaller card shops would die off
Holding into cards that rapidly fluctuate towards higher prices helps them function
My lgs instantly sells revised or earlier duals, so the idea that people aren't willing to pay for legacy is far fetched IMO
Also my cliques have risen in value over 1 year by almost 100%
I hold onto cards that will increase on value like foils and staples for The eternal formats
I'm fine with my reserved items not reprinting :P
Really if you want to get into legacy, use shocks for your land base, sure it cost 2 damage to come in untapped, but you have your mana base and for a fraction of the price.
I mean you can't expect a business to run solely on selling cards that are all priced under $25
Depends on the card and like I mentioned all staples have jankier cousins available, they just cause you to wrack yor brain more
This mirrors my current feelings on the Reserve list: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/rule-of-law-keeping-the-reserve-list/
A promise has to mean something. As much as it sucks, and as much as I would like to see more new players in the Legacy format, a mistake was made and should not be changed.
Magic on the other hand, just got way cooler. I can't wait for 2 blocks a year. It should slim the amount of time between returning to popular blocks, even less popular ones. I can't wait to have 19 Jace's in my EDH deck.
Faster return to fetch lands
Also looking at modern masters: reprints of rare staples actually increased their prices
Clique
Tarmogoyf
Sword of fire and ice
Quote from: GlowackAttack on August 25, 2014, 05:23:08 PM
If they reprint from or remove the super-ban reprint list, yes people will complain about the value of their cards decreasing but honestly how many people invest that heavily in magic for it's long term value? I get that yes, it's nice to crack packs and realize that you just made 20$ on a 5$ investment, but 9/10 times you trade it off for more cards of value you want. People who have original duals/etc are just holding onto the cards for the "this card is worth 200$" aspect rather than the "I can actually use this in my deck." If they reprint SOOOO many people would be able to get into formats they never would have thought they'd get into. I know if they reprinted duals...even fetchlands, I would get so into legacy or modern. Like, while part of me would be butthurt if they reprinted a card worth a lot of money that I'm holding onto, another part of me would say...well, I should have traded it away before hand and I shouldn't have held onto it like it was the last rock at rehab.
You do realize that fetches are not on the reserved list right?
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 06:23:14 PM
This mirrors my current feelings on the Reserve list: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/rule-of-law-keeping-the-reserve-list/
Yeah, that sums up most arguments for the Reserved List, an outdated argument that hinges on, "too bad for you and the format, I like owning expensive cards :)"
The Reserved List should be abolished and they should print paper Legacy Masters at $25 (or so) a pop. This could lower some prices slightly, brings in millions, and give newer players a chance to own some of the ABUR lands (but keep the Power under a Reserved List).
Edit: OR take the cards that are on the Reserved List and print barely but strictly worse cards of those on the Reserved List (obviously at a lower MSRP). For example, ABUR lands that deal 1 damage to you when they ETB.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 08:34:41 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 06:23:14 PM
This mirrors my current feelings on the Reserve list: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/rule-of-law-keeping-the-reserve-list/
Yeah, that sums up most arguments for the Reserved List, an outdated argument that hinges on, "too bad for you and the format, I like owning expensive cards :)"
The Reserved List should be abolished and they should print paper Legacy Masters at $25 (or so) a pop. This could lower some prices slightly, brings in millions, and give newer players a chance to own some of the ABUR lands (but keep the Power under a Reserved List).
Edit: OR take the cards that are on the Reserved List and print barely but strictly worse cards of those on the Reserved List (obviously at a lower MSRP). For example, ABUR lands that deal 1 damage to you when they ETB.
They already did the second thing. They're called Shock Lands.
Quote from: Falcon182 on August 25, 2014, 08:44:25 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 08:34:41 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 06:23:14 PM
This mirrors my current feelings on the Reserve list: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/rule-of-law-keeping-the-reserve-list/
Yeah, that sums up most arguments for the Reserved List, an outdated argument that hinges on, "too bad for you and the format, I like owning expensive cards :)"
The Reserved List should be abolished and they should print paper Legacy Masters at $25 (or so) a pop. This could lower some prices slightly, brings in millions, and give newer players a chance to own some of the ABUR lands (but keep the Power under a Reserved List).
Edit: OR take the cards that are on the Reserved List and print barely but strictly worse cards of those on the Reserved List (obviously at a lower MSRP). For example, ABUR lands that deal 1 damage to you when they ETB.
They already did the second thing. They're called Shock Lands.
Read that again. The card would be better than shocklands, which are practically unplayable in Legacy. The other downside the lands could have could be your opponent gains 1 life when they ETB.
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Unless there is such a power creep they print enough new cards that are relevant and rare in power/rarity to be worth trading into legacy staples.
Quote from: DirtyMustachio on August 25, 2014, 09:02:24 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Unless they're is such a power creep they print enough new cards that are relevant and rare in power/rarity to be worth trading into legacy staples.
This would be more like it. Tons and tons of Legacy decks are comprised of NWO-era cards. {Deathrite Shaman}, {Delver of Secrets}, {Abrupt Decay}. Looking up and down those lists, except the mana base, most of them are reprintable cards. No one is constantly crying about a {Force of Will} mass-reprint, it's not on the reserve list and is a format staple. If the mana base of every deck not extremely greedy with absolutely no drawbacks is what ruins Legacy, then that would be a real shame.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Exactly, completely unrealistic. The golf clubs analogy just shows how out of touch the author is with real life. Most people don't have hundreds of dollars to waste on golf clubs, let alone Magic cards. This isn't a case of, "well everyone has to make some sacrifices, " this is a case of, "well you don't eat for the next 8 months, you might be able to afford legacy." Wizards could break the promise at any point. The easiest way to do this is a to an "unaffiliated" company print the cards, they choose not to because they prefer to please the collectors over the players.
Damn I wanted to play Lego too :(
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Exactly, completely unrealistic. The golf clubs analogy just shows how out of touch the author is with real life. Most people don't have hundreds of dollars to waste on golf clubs, let alone Magic cards. This isn't a case of, "well everyone has to make some sacrifices, " this is a case of, "well you don't eat for the next 8 months, you might be able to afford legacy." Wizards could break the promise at any point. The easiest way to do this is a to an "unaffiliated" company print the cards, they choose not to because they prefer to please the collectors over the players.
The golf club analogy is more to show that if you want the best Golf clubs - there is a price for them. Playing high level legacy requires high level cards. Playing for fun with your buddies you can use Shocklands, just like you can buy cheaper golf clubs that are good, but not the best. Wizards could break that promise at any point, and the point they do decide to break it is the point it's not worth believing anything they have to say.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Exactly, completely unrealistic. The golf clubs analogy just shows how out of touch the author is with real life. Most people don't have hundreds of dollars to waste on golf clubs, let alone Magic cards. This isn't a case of, "well everyone has to make some sacrifices, " this is a case of, "well you don't eat for the next 8 months, you might be able to afford legacy." Wizards could break the promise at any point. The easiest way to do this is a to an "unaffiliated" company print the cards, they choose not to because they prefer to please the collectors over the players.
It's actually a great analogy.
Do you have to have top of the line golf clubs to play golf? No, they just help your game, and if you want to get competitive you should be at the top of your game.
ABUR lands fit into that statement perfectly. Why should Wizards break a promise - and get a lot of community hate from not just collectors - just to satisfy some people who likely wouldn't compete in Legacy anyway?
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 09:16:18 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Exactly, completely unrealistic. The golf clubs analogy just shows how out of touch the author is with real life. Most people don't have hundreds of dollars to waste on golf clubs, let alone Magic cards. This isn't a case of, "well everyone has to make some sacrifices, " this is a case of, "well you don't eat for the next 8 months, you might be able to afford legacy." Wizards could break the promise at any point. The easiest way to do this is a to an "unaffiliated" company print the cards, they choose not to because they prefer to please the collectors over the players.
The golf club analogy is more to show that if you want the best Golf clubs - there is a price for them. Playing high level legacy requires high level cards. Playing for fun with your buddies you can use Shocklands, just like you can buy cheaper golf clubs that are good, but not the best. Wizards could break that promise at any point, and the point they do decide to break it is the point it's not worth believing anything they have to say.
That is a huge lie propagated by pro-Reserved List writers. How does breaking a promise they shouldn't have made (and openly doesn't like) and appeasing the grand majority of their customers hurt them? No one is going to question their word after that, unless there is a "Reserved List 2" which would never happen. Not one person is going to go, "well they lied about the Reserved List, why should we trust that Khans is going to come out?!?" The only thing breaking the Reserved List does is increase the popularity of legacy, makes Wizards millions, increase consumer confidence, and piss off a few collectors.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 06:23:14 PM
This mirrors my current feelings on the Reserve list: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/rule-of-law-keeping-the-reserve-list/
A promise has to mean something. As much as it sucks, and as much as I would like to see more new players in the Legacy format, a mistake was made and should not be changed.
Magic on the other hand, just got way cooler. I can't wait for 2 blocks a year. It should slim the amount of time between returning to popular blocks, even less popular ones. I can't wait to have 19 Jace's in my EDH deck.
I want to know who edited that article. There is a glaring mistake to me, as the author stated that Chronicles was the reason for the Reserve Policy due to cards being reprinted such as {Killer Bees} being in Chronicles. Killer bees were never printed in Chronicles. They were first reprinted in 4th edition, which pre-dates Chronicles by 2 sets. So that is an incorrect fact. That really bugs me that someone writing to help other people doesn't know the history of the game or didn't take the time to properly research. Same goes to the editor.
/rant
I agree with that statement entirely. I don't have money for ABUR duals. I understand that. I also don't have money to buy Turtle Beach headphones for my XBoX gaming. That doesn't mean that they need to manufacture more headphones just so that I can enjoy better quality, it means that I should save up if I wish for the best.
An adult with a decent job and a good grasp on their finances can afford a legacy deck, even with a busy life and children. At this point, if you haven't realized that Magic is an expensive hobby, reader beware. If you really want to play Legacy but cannot afford the cards, play online. It is a fraction of the cost, and is still pretty fun. If your super cheap you can even go the Cockatrice/Untap route. Or you can always make proxies and have fun with friends. Like Dudecore has mentioned though, if you wish to play in high level tournaments with thousands of dollars on the line for winning, I think it's pretty fair that you must invest towards that goal, not simply be allowed nearly free passage just because it sounds fun. Legacy by many is considered the pinnacle of competitive play, I think the golf analogy is more than suiting.
Quote from: griffin131 on August 25, 2014, 09:20:09 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Exactly, completely unrealistic. The golf clubs analogy just shows how out of touch the author is with real life. Most people don't have hundreds of dollars to waste on golf clubs, let alone Magic cards. This isn't a case of, "well everyone has to make some sacrifices, " this is a case of, "well you don't eat for the next 8 months, you might be able to afford legacy." Wizards could break the promise at any point. The easiest way to do this is a to an "unaffiliated" company print the cards, they choose not to because they prefer to please the collectors over the players.
It's actually a great analogy.
Do you have to have top of the line golf clubs to play golf? No, they just help your game, and if you want to get competitive you should be at the top of your game.
ABUR lands fit into that statement perfectly. Why should Wizards break a promise - and get a lot of community hate from not just collectors - just to satisfy some people who likely wouldn't compete in Legacy anyway?
No, the analogy is more like, "you don't need golf clubs, just play with a baseball bat." Nothing comes close to ABUR dual lands, if were you to try playing competitively with shocklands, its like starting every game 8-11 life. You would never have a chance, just as you would not have a chance at a golf tournament with a baseball bat. Also, the community would not hate the decision, the grand majority would welcome it. The ABUR dual lands might not even go down, because of the increase in demand and obvious preference for original cards in the Magic community. The only people who would be angered would be collectors, who honestly shouldn't even be thought of when Wizards makes decisions.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on August 25, 2014, 09:27:43 PM
An adult with a decent job and a good grasp on their finances can afford a legacy deck, even with a busy life and children. At this point, if you haven't realized that Magic is an expensive hobby, reader beware. If you really want to play Legacy but cannot afford the cards, play online. It is a fraction of the cost, and is still pretty fun. If your super cheap you can even go the Cockatrice/Untap route. Or you can always make proxies and have fun with friends. Like Dudecore has mentioned though, if you wish to play in high level tournaments with thousands of dollars on the line for winning, I think it's pretty fair that you must invest towards that goal, not simply be allowed nearly free passage just because it sounds fun. Legacy by many is considered the pinnacle of competitive play, I think the golf analogy is more than suiting.
I get that everything cant' be free, but what people are suggesting is, "whoever spend the most wins," Magic, which isn't Magic. No card should cost more than $50 (Richard Garfield, The Creator of Magic actually thinks no card should cost over $20).
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on August 25, 2014, 09:20:09 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Exactly, completely unrealistic. The golf clubs analogy just shows how out of touch the author is with real life. Most people don't have hundreds of dollars to waste on golf clubs, let alone Magic cards. This isn't a case of, "well everyone has to make some sacrifices, " this is a case of, "well you don't eat for the next 8 months, you might be able to afford legacy." Wizards could break the promise at any point. The easiest way to do this is a to an "unaffiliated" company print the cards, they choose not to because they prefer to please the collectors over the players.
It's actually a great analogy.
Do you have to have top of the line golf clubs to play golf? No, they just help your game, and if you want to get competitive you should be at the top of your game.
ABUR lands fit into that statement perfectly. Why should Wizards break a promise - and get a lot of community hate from not just collectors - just to satisfy some people who likely wouldn't compete in Legacy anyway?
No, the analogy is more like, "you don't need golf clubs, just play with a baseball bat." Nothing comes close to ABUR dual lands, if were you to try playing competitively with shocklands, its like starting every game 8-11 life. You would never have a chance, just as you would not have a chance at a golf tournament with a baseball bat. Also, the community would not hate the decision, the grand majority would welcome it. The ABUR dual lands might not even go down, because of the increase in demand and obvious preference for original cards in the Magic community. The only people who would be angered would be collectors, who honestly shouldn't even be thought of when Wizards makes decisions.
Considering that serious collectors are at the top when it comes to sales of high dollar staples in the secondary market, Wizards wouldn't just be pissing off them, but also the distributors of the market themselves. Many game stores (as has already been mentioned) would lose hundreds, some even thousands, of dollars in inventory in the blink of an eye. At that point it's literally effecting the lives of store owners and the health of our LGS scene. To say that prices would not drop is a bold statement. Reprinting shocklands helped break the barrier into modern, as such, prices on both new and old suffered, some say for the better, which I do agree on. Although, when it comes to ABUR duals, that is a whole other level of greenbacks. $40-50 cards dropping to $10 is reasonable, if a set contained reprints of real duals and other legacy staples, you can bet you ass that's set will be ripped off the shelves in a frenzy by hungry players. A massive influx like this would most definitely effect their older counterparts.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on August 25, 2014, 09:42:52 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on August 25, 2014, 09:20:09 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:09:55 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 08:59:56 PM
I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.
It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.
Exactly, completely unrealistic. The golf clubs analogy just shows how out of touch the author is with real life. Most people don't have hundreds of dollars to waste on golf clubs, let alone Magic cards. This isn't a case of, "well everyone has to make some sacrifices, " this is a case of, "well you don't eat for the next 8 months, you might be able to afford legacy." Wizards could break the promise at any point. The easiest way to do this is a to an "unaffiliated" company print the cards, they choose not to because they prefer to please the collectors over the players.
It's actually a great analogy.
Do you have to have top of the line golf clubs to play golf? No, they just help your game, and if you want to get competitive you should be at the top of your game.
ABUR lands fit into that statement perfectly. Why should Wizards break a promise - and get a lot of community hate from not just collectors - just to satisfy some people who likely wouldn't compete in Legacy anyway?
No, the analogy is more like, "you don't need golf clubs, just play with a baseball bat." Nothing comes close to ABUR dual lands, if were you to try playing competitively with shocklands, its like starting every game 8-11 life. You would never have a chance, just as you would not have a chance at a golf tournament with a baseball bat. Also, the community would not hate the decision, the grand majority would welcome it. The ABUR dual lands might not even go down, because of the increase in demand and obvious preference for original cards in the Magic community. The only people who would be angered would be collectors, who honestly shouldn't even be thought of when Wizards makes decisions.
Considering that serious collectors are at the top when it comes to sales of high dollar staples in the secondary market, Wizards wouldn't just be pissing off them, but also the distributors of the market themselves. Many game stores (as has already been mentioned) would lose hundreds, some even thousands, of dollars in inventory in the blink of an eye. At that point it's literally effecting the lives of store owners and the health of our LGS scene. To say that prices would not drop is a bold statement. Reprinting shocklands helped break the barrier into modern, as such, prices on both new and old suffered, some say for the better, which I do agree on. Although, when it comes to ABUR duals, that is a whole other level of greenbacks. $40-50 cards dropping to $10 is reasonable, if a set contained reprints of real duals and other legacy staples, you can bet you ass that's set will be ripped off the shelves in a frenzy by hungry players. A massive influx like this would most definitely effect their older counterparts.
I didn't say they wouldn't drop in price, I said they may not. The originals (and especially the Alpha ones) would always be looked at as collectors items, even if they were reprinted. As for the "ripping off the shelves," I know that would happen, and it would be a driving force in keeping the legacy staples from completely plummeting (just as it keep Modern staples up with Modern Masters). As for game stores, they might lose some money, but very few "mom and pop" stores own these huge cards, most of the companies that would lose money are companies such as Starcitygames.com that could easily take the hit (assuming there even is one).
If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.
There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:47:16 PM
I didn't say they wouldn't drop in price, I said they may not. The originals (and especially the Alpha ones) would always be looked at as collectors items, even if they were reprinted. As for the "ripping off the shelves," I know that would happen, and it would be a driving force in keeping the legacy staples from completely plummeting (just as it keep Modern staples up with Modern Masters).
Modern Masters allowed modern staples to maintain their value due to an extremely limited print run. If you are stating that they do the same, you are going to have some outstanding prices on packs and boxes of this sealed product. If you are asking for a reprint in an expert set, you are asking for a butchering of value in older versions.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on August 25, 2014, 09:54:29 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:47:16 PM
I didn't say they wouldn't drop in price, I said they may not. The originals (and especially the Alpha ones) would always be looked at as collectors items, even if they were reprinted. As for the "ripping off the shelves," I know that would happen, and it would be a driving force in keeping the legacy staples from completely plummeting (just as it keep Modern staples up with Modern Masters).
Modern Masters allowed modern staples to maintain their value due to an extremely limited print run. If you are stating that they do the same, you are going to have some outstanding prices on packs and boxes of this sealed product. If you are asking for a reprint in an expert set, you are asking for a butchering of value in older versions.
I'm not asking for a reprint in a Expert set, or even $5 ABUR lands. I am asking for a Legacy Masters product that has the ABUR duals settle around $50-100, and increasing the supply of legacy staples, therefore increasing the number of people who can play legacy. I have no problem with $50 cards, but $300 are way out of the realm of reality for the vast majority of people who play Magic. I spent $1000 on my Modern deck, but I can't spend $5000 on a legacy deck.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 09:52:52 PM
If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.
There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.
I believe the promise you are referring to is the promise Wizards made when they created the Mythic Rare rarity claiming, "they will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards." Looking back at the Titans, {Baneslayer Angel}, {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}, {Tarmogoyf}, {Dark Confidant}, {Vendilion Clique}, {Kiora, the Crashing Wave}, {Elspeth, Sun's Champion}, {Brimaz, King of Oreskos}, {Sphinx's Revelation}, {Liliana of the Veil}, {Voice of Resurgance}, {Blood Baron of Vizkopa}....yeah, I'm not sure sure they kept that promise.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 10:06:04 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 09:52:52 PM
If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.
There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.
I believe the promise you are referring to is the promise Wizards made when they created the Mythic Rare rarity claiming, "they will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards." Looking back at the Titans, {Baneslayer Angel}, {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}, {Tarmogoyf}, {Dark Confidant}, {Vendilion Clique}....yeah, I'm not sure sure they kept that promise.
Those aren't chase-cards that they're referring to. A chase-card would be something like a card that was only available in foil, and at Mythic Rarity, which was extremely powerful. Foils in MtG are just duplicates of the non-foil version. I've re-read the Mythic Rare introduction, and I don't see any promises or anything that sounds like the way people make it out to be. Although I do recall, like you, Mythic Rarity being for cards they don't want to be drafted constantly, because they had unique effects or they were very powerful, which would effect limited (and lets be honest, sells more packs).
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 10:06:04 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 09:52:52 PM
If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.
There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.
I believe the promise you are referring to is the promise Wizards made when they created the Mythic Rare rarity claiming, "they will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards." Looking back at the Titans, {Baneslayer Angel}, {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}, {Tarmogoyf}, {Dark Confidant}, {Vendilion Clique}, {Kiora, the Crashing Wave}, {Elspeth, Sun's Champion}, {Brimaz, King of Oreskos}, {Sphinx's Revelation}, {Liliana of the Veil}, {Voice of Resurgance}, {Blood Baron of Vizkopa}....yeah, I'm not sure sure they kept that promise.
Goyf, clique and confidant were all originally printed at rare.
Quote from: Falcon182 on August 25, 2014, 10:15:32 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 10:06:04 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 25, 2014, 09:52:52 PM
If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.
There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.
I believe the promise you are referring to is the promise Wizards made when they created the Mythic Rare rarity claiming, "they will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards." Looking back at the Titans, {Baneslayer Angel}, {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}, {Tarmogoyf}, {Dark Confidant}, {Vendilion Clique}, {Kiora, the Crashing Wave}, {Elspeth, Sun's Champion}, {Brimaz, King of Oreskos}, {Sphinx's Revelation}, {Liliana of the Veil}, {Voice of Resurgance}, {Blood Baron of Vizkopa}....yeah, I'm not sure sure they kept that promise.
Goyf, clique and confidant were all originally printed at rare.
That was before they made Mythic rares. They were all in Mythic in Modern Masters.
Anyways I think it's crazy the people who think legacy is overpriced. A tier 1 modern deck can cost almost as much as a legacy deck. Staying current in standard for a year or two costs as much as a legacy deck. There are lots of competitive legacy decks that don't run the highest priced dual lands... But besides the duals, nearly every card that is good in legacy is good in modern!
If you want to get in to legacy, don't spend $100 on a sealed box of standard garbage, spend that same $100 on a wasteland. I really don't understand how people don't get this concept. The same people that complain about the cost of legacy are the people who buy 2 boxes of each set as it comes out and a set of each intro decks. If you don't see the problem here, legacy doesn't want you. Stick to standard.
I mainly play standard because it's a volatile format. That's what I like about it. New decks, new combos etc. You can argue that you have a larger pool of cards for the old folks, but the tier 1 decks are static(Once or twice in a blood moon a new card is added)
Mark addressed the issue with decks like MonoU and MonoB and Esper/Azo decksand how people only play decks that top 8, and I do think this revision will help change that. The one thing I hope they do is run a few isolated tests before they try to implement the new rotation style, unless they already have and I'm just a sill willy, otherwise everything seems like a good idea.
Quote from: GlowackAttack on August 24, 2014, 05:59:51 PM
Did anybody else realize that Modern masterS starts with M and ends with S? Like... That could be what was referring to, te modern masters 2. Not this magic origins.
So.... What are the "M" and "S" for now? Magic SetS?
Metamorphisis
Wasn't wizards the same people who promised to never print Planeswalker's onto cards also,
This company will do whatever it wants when it deems it necessary, promises are just a thing to quell the masses temporarily.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 25, 2014, 09:27:59 PM
No, the analogy is more like, "you don't need golf clubs, just play with a baseball bat." Nothing comes close to ABUR dual lands, if were you to try playing competitively with shocklands, its like starting every game 8-11 life. You would never have a chance, just as you would not have a chance at a golf tournament with a baseball bat. Also, the community would not hate the decision, the grand majority would welcome it. The ABUR dual lands might not even go down, because of the increase in demand and obvious preference for original cards in the Magic community. The only people who would be angered would be collectors, who honestly shouldn't even be thought of when Wizards makes decisions.
Isn't that what I said? That you can use shock lands, but to play competitively you need ABURs, just like to play competitively you need good clubs?
Shocks are a great example - a reprint proved they would go down, rather significantly. And as a player (not collector) I'd be angry if they just invalidated the reserve list.
Quote from: Falcon182 on August 25, 2014, 10:37:29 PM
Anyways I think it's crazy the people who think legacy is overpriced. A tier 1 modern deck can cost almost as much as a legacy deck. Staying current in standard for a year or two costs as much as a legacy deck. There are lots of competitive legacy decks that don't run the highest priced dual lands... But besides the duals, nearly every card that is good in legacy is good in modern!
If you want to get in to legacy, don't spend $100 on a sealed box of standard garbage, spend that same $100 on a wasteland. I really don't understand how people don't get this concept. The same people that complain about the cost of legacy are the people who buy 2 boxes of each set as it comes out and a set of each intro decks. If you don't see the problem here, legacy doesn't want you. Stick to standard.
You say that. But it's the people who buy the new stuff keep the game alive. If everyone just bought the cards like that this game would be dead ( either cards way overpriced or no one playing because no new blood) Every so often you get a card that breaks into legacy from a new expansion. There has to be some kind of happy medium.
If they are so worried they are gonna break the local lgs by reprinting that's a silly concept. I believe they don't want to reprint so there is always that want of cards. If you had all the cards always available you would get bored. Back to my first thought. Wotc could send out a note to the lgs warring them about reprints. Then plan something that they could work out similar to the "hidden treasures".
Quote from: Rass on August 26, 2014, 12:18:17 PM
Quote from: Falcon182 on August 25, 2014, 10:37:29 PM
Anyways I think it's crazy the people who think legacy is overpriced. A tier 1 modern deck can cost almost as much as a legacy deck. Staying current in standard for a year or two costs as much as a legacy deck. There are lots of competitive legacy decks that don't run the highest priced dual lands... But besides the duals, nearly every card that is good in legacy is good in modern!
If you want to get in to legacy, don't spend $100 on a sealed box of standard garbage, spend that same $100 on a wasteland. I really don't understand how people don't get this concept. The same people that complain about the cost of legacy are the people who buy 2 boxes of each set as it comes out and a set of each intro decks. If you don't see the problem here, legacy doesn't want you. Stick to standard.
You say that. But it's the people who buy the new stuff keep the game alive. If everyone just bought the cards like that this game would be dead ( either cards way overpriced or no one playing because no new blood) Every so often you get a card that breaks into legacy from a new expansion. There has to be some kind of happy medium.
If they are so worried they are gonna break the local lgs by reprinting that's a silly concept. I believe they don't want to reprint so there is always that want of cards. If you had all the cards always available you would get bored. Back to my first thought. Wotc could send out a note to the lgs warring them about reprints. Then plan something that they could work out similar to the "hidden treasures".
I agree, if people stopped playing standard the game as we know it would end. Lots of people love standard and that's awesome, people should keep playing standard. I don't have a problem with people playing standard, I have a problem with all the complaining about legacy prices.
Yes but just saying stop complaint about prices does nothing. What kind of solutions.
(I guess I read a little on the text and didn't get the tone I thought you were calling the people who buy standard dumb)
Quote from: Rass on August 26, 2014, 12:33:00 PM
Yes but just saying stop complaint about prices does nothing. What kind of solutions.
(I guess I read a little on the text and didn't get the tone I thought you were calling the people who buy standard dumb)
No, not at all... I would play standard but I don't have the time and money to spend on it. I play legacy because I don't HAVE to buy new cards for it every few months.
Quote from: GlowackAttack on August 26, 2014, 02:58:11 PM
I just hope that when I die and go to heaven Jesus has a few EDH decks. :-/ it'd be a major bummer if he only played legacy
Jesus plays vintage.
Last I heard he plays Pokemon.
I thought he played Marvel VS
Quote from: rarehuntertay on August 26, 2014, 11:17:54 PM
I thought he played Marvel VS
How dare you insult Jesus' taste in games!
Jesus plays Ante w/ mana burn
Re: price of legacy
Any hobby will have expensive prices for original and hard to find items.
It's supply and demand, if magic wasn't a CCG, it wouldn't have this problem. This is a collectors game, not a game ready to go out of the box. If that was the case, magic would be sold in sets instead of packs, allowing all players to have the same card pool easily.
But if they did that, magic would become worthless IMO. There is no longer a need for LGS for buying products, I can go get it at target and save 15%. Prices of cards wouldn't really matter if you could buy the set for $60 or less.
I'm a collector also, so telling me after I did some work and spent some money that my collection is now available for $39.95 at target or you can preorder at GameStop to get an exclusive foil. No thanks. Play your kaojido or some other awful card game that's about to die from over printing
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 12:17:02 PMI'm a collector also, so telling me after I did some work and spent some money that my collection is now available for $39.95 at target or you can preorder at GameStop to get an exclusive foil. No thanks. Play your kaojido or some other awful card game that's about to die from over printing
This is why all Reserved List arguments crash and burn....No one (who actually cares about the future of the game) wants a "FTV: Dual Lands" for MSRP. I am talking about a Legacy Masters with $15-25 a pack MSRP. I understand dual lands can't cost $10, but they shouldn't cost $300 either...
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 01:07:32 PM
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 12:17:02 PMI'm a collector also, so telling me after I did some work and spent some money that my collection is now available for $39.95 at target or you can preorder at GameStop to get an exclusive foil. No thanks. Play your kaojido or some other awful card game that's about to die from over printing
This is why all Reserved List arguments crash and burn....No one (who actually cares about the future of the game) wants a "FTV: Dual Lands" for MSRP. I am talking about a Legacy Masters with $15-25 a pack MSRP. I understand dual lands can't cost $10, but they shouldn't cost $300 either...
This is why I think the repeal the reserve list argument fails. The secondary market prices for the card's are not a valid reason to break a promise. Saying we're not concerned with the future of the game is loaded because I do care about the future of the game - Wizards ability to keep promises is all part of that. What certain people are comfortable spending on Legacy staples isn't super important, especially since they're less then $20 a piece online, or you can proxy for your friends.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 01:07:32 PM
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 12:17:02 PMI'm a collector also, so telling me after I did some work and spent some money that my collection is now available for $39.95 at target or you can preorder at GameStop to get an exclusive foil. No thanks. Play your kaojido or some other awful card game that's about to die from over printing
This is why all Reserved List arguments crash and burn....No one (who actually cares about the future of the game) wants a "FTV: Dual Lands" for MSRP. I am talking about a Legacy Masters with $15-25 a pack MSRP. I understand dual lands can't cost $10, but they shouldn't cost $300 either...
I remember when dual lands cost $10 😜
And I know the reserved list isn't going away... It's just wishful thinking on my end. However, I can get behind a Legacy Masters set with reprints of the non-reserved list, such as {force of will},{mana drain}, {sinkhole}, {chain lightning} etc...
Everyone wants a Lamborghini and only wants to pay for a Kia.
These are cards that are over 20 years old, breaking a 20 year old promise??? They want people to buy standard, they know their limited sets will normally sell out.
Those cards I named are not on the reserved list, so therefore, are eligible for reprints
I'm mainly speaking about the OG dual lands
Believe me I would love. Juzam djinn reprint :)
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 04:26:03 PM
Believe me I would love. Juzam djinn reprint :)
I would love that too... unfortunately, it's on the reserved list :(
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 03:20:53 PM
These are cards that are over 20 years old, breaking a 20 year old promise??? They want people to buy standard, they know their limited sets will normally sell out.
Actually, by not printing the dual lands RIGHT NOW they are "breaking a promise" older than the Reserved List. After Alpha and Beta sold out, they made the white bordered "Unlimited" was supposed to be of "Unlimited supply". That was supposed to be Magic, just those three sets. They then decided that was the dumbest thing ever and that they could make more money if them printed new sets. So it's okay that they break some promises, as long as they keep the ones that are good for people with ABUR duals? This is the number one reason the "keep the Reserved List" argument has absolutely no legs.
What about the argument of: you could play MTGO for that experience?
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 04:40:11 PM
What about the argument of: you could play MTGO for that experience?
Can't play in tournaments. All professional Magic is paper.
Quote from: Taysby on August 27, 2014, 04:40:14 PM
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 04:26:03 PM
Believe me I would love. Juzam djinn reprint :)
That's the one card i'm considering not putting in my power cube. 5/5 flyer for 2? really??... I'd be glad if all of a sudden it never existed...
you must be thinking of something else... Juzam is a 5/5 for 2BB that deals 1 point of damage to you during upkeep.
{Juzám Djinn}
He's not confused. People used to think that it was only {B}{B}, due to the {2} being hardly visible.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 04:38:39 PM
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 03:20:53 PM
These are cards that are over 20 years old, breaking a 20 year old promise??? They want people to buy standard, they know their limited sets will normally sell out.
Actually, by not printing the dual lands RIGHT NOW they are "breaking a promise" older than the Reserved List. After Alpha and Beta sold out, they made the white bordered "Unlimited" was supposed to be of "Unlimited supply". That was supposed to be Magic, just those three sets. They then decided that was the dumbest thing ever and that they could make more money if them printed new sets. So it's okay that they break some promises, as long as they keep the ones that are good for people with ABUR duals? This is the number one reason the "keep the Reserved List" argument has absolutely no legs.
Their breaking one promise does not mean that another should not be kept. The inverse of what you are saying I also true.
It's okay for them to break some promises, as long as they keep the ones that give you dual lands.
Quote from: blackychan1 on August 27, 2014, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 04:38:39 PM
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 03:20:53 PM
These are cards that are over 20 years old, breaking a 20 year old promise??? They want people to buy standard, they know their limited sets will normally sell out.
Actually, by not printing the dual lands RIGHT NOW they are "breaking a promise" older than the Reserved List. After Alpha and Beta sold out, they made the white bordered "Unlimited" was supposed to be of "Unlimited supply". That was supposed to be Magic, just those three sets. They then decided that was the dumbest thing ever and that they could make more money if them printed new sets. So it's okay that they break some promises, as long as they keep the ones that are good for people with ABUR duals? This is the number one reason the "keep the Reserved List" argument has absolutely no legs.
Their breaking one promise does not mean that another should not be kept. The inverse of what you are saying I also true.
It's okay for them to break some promises, as long as they keep the ones that give you dual lands.
No, actually no one is asking for an Unlimited. The thing is: everything is stacked up against the Reserved List, Wizards hates it, players hate it, it's causing Legacy and Vintage to suffer, and the only argument for it is "they can't break a promise" and yet no one cries about not giving Unlimited an unlimited printing. People who are arguing for the Reserved List are hypocrites on the highest level. Now to follow that, I realize that people have thousands of dollars invested in them, and I don't want that money to disappear, that is why I think we should have a "Legacy Masters" that increases the supply, but at an MSRP that keeps prices reasonably high.
Who said unlimited edition was supposed to be an unlimited print run?
Also, the reserve list isn't good for people wIth ABUR lands. Increasing prices fuel counterfeit cards (they mostly counterfeit {Tarmogoyf}, not on the reserve list). Reprinting them probably wouldn't hurt the value if it was done correctly. Still not a reason to break a promise. Would more people play Legacy? Yes. Still not a reason to break a promise. I personally would love to have a full set of them. The reserve list isn't good for players. I personally do not like it. That being said, my argument is the same it has been this whole time: they made a promise.
You keep saying we're "clinging" to an argument, but I would like to hear your reasoning for why you think it is OK to break a promise or commitment you've made to someone. We all know the reasons why they should never make another reserve list. There reason for making the first list was reactionary, short sighted and ill-advised, that much is true. Still doesn't mean you can take it back now and say "I meant to do something else"
The reason to break the promise is simple, the pros greatly outweigh the cons. The cons are few: some people will get upset, they broke a promise, and no one will ever trust them again (which I still say isn't legit). The pros are numerous: they can use Legacy and Vintage as a Pro Tour format (currently they can't because some countries don't have the cards, or at least that is the excuse), more players can play these formats; with new players, the formats will become more popular which is good for those currently playing it; Wizards stands to make a ridiculous amount of money, players with staples not reprinted (say {Counterbalance} or {Terminus} don't get reprints or something) see a rocketing in the value of their collection, it will give Wizards more freedom (for example, they currently can't print a 2/2 with flying and first strike for {2}{W} because it is on the reserved list), and it pleases the overwhelming majority (at least 90%) of the consumers. Honestly, I am surprised Hasbro hasn't forced them to drop it by now....
Quote from: Dudecore on August 27, 2014, 06:09:55 PM
Who said unlimited edition was supposed to be an unlimited print run?
LSV did on the Magic Show, I assumed if he was wrong they would have corrected him. I will try to find the link.
Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrbsjihikmM
About 25:20
Edit: it was the host of the Magic Show, not LSV but still.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 07:16:16 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 27, 2014, 06:09:55 PM
Who said unlimited edition was supposed to be an unlimited print run?
LSV did on the Magic Show, I assumed if he was wrong they would have corrected him. I will try to find the link.
Did you ask Mark Rosewater? http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/95944102408/so-unlimited-was-originally-going-to-be-of-unlimited
Quote from: Dudecore on August 27, 2014, 07:21:22 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 07:16:16 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on August 27, 2014, 06:09:55 PM
Who said unlimited edition was supposed to be an unlimited print run?
LSV did on the Magic Show, I assumed if he was wrong they would have corrected him. I will try to find the link.
Did you ask Mark Rosewater? http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/95944102408/so-unlimited-was-originally-going-to-be-of-unlimited
I did, but he wasn't working at that point. I found the clip where the host of Magic show says it, it is above.
Edit: I also looked for announcements online, but they don't have anything from back then online, that was back when it was Garfield Games doing it. I wonder if we can find a definitive answer?
Well you did get a reprint with the CE ;)
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 07:14:14 PM
The reason to break the promise is simple, the pros greatly outweigh the cons. The cons are few: some people will get upset, they broke a promise, and no one will ever trust them again (which I still say isn't legit). The pros are numerous: they can use Legacy and Vintage as a Pro Tour format (currently they can't because some countries don't have the cards, or at least that is the excuse), more players can play these formats; with new players, the formats will become more popular which is good for those currently playing it; Wizards stands to make a ridiculous amount of money, players with staples not reprinted (say {Counterbalance} or {Terminus} don't get reprints or something) see a rocketing in the value of their collection, it will give Wizards more freedom (for example, they currently can't print a 2/2 with flying and first strike for {2}{W} because it is on the reserved list), and it pleases the overwhelming majority (at least 90%) of the consumers. Honestly, I am surprised Hasbro hasn't forced them to drop it by now....
So if I made a promise to trade you cards, and but then someone else wanted them, your end is in the mail. It would be OK in your opinion to not trade those cards? It would benefit me and the other person. What if those cards skyrocketed in value for no reason, it would benefit me to not trade them. Would it help me to be known as someone who does not keep their promise? What if I had another trade and promised not to do the same?
If a 2/2 flying first strike is what the game is missing, then I don't want to play this game anymore. Design has been successfully working around not printing that card for years, and will continue.
Again, we all know the reasons why it's a good idea not to make another reserve list. Pleasing 90% of the people (an exaggerated estimate, an actual survey would have to be conducted) is not a good reason to go back on a promise. Even if it benefits Wizards. Truth be told, if they do abandon the reserve list, and go back on the promise for monetary gain - that would be a clear indication of a dishonest money grab.
And to be honest, if magic were designed today - they'd never make the dual lands. Playing multiple colors is supposed to have a drawback. Having basic land types and coming in untapped is not the philosophy the game going for, but that is for another time
Maybe I'm crazy, but I think promises have to mean something.
What Dude said^ I agree (and so does MaRo) it's a promise that WotC doesn't want to break
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 05:22:42 PM
No, actually no one is asking for an Unlimited. The thing is: everything is stacked up against the Reserved List, Wizards hates it, players hate it, it's causing Legacy and Vintage to suffer, and the only argument for it is "they can't break a promise" and yet no one cries about not giving Unlimited an unlimited printing. People who are arguing for the Reserved List are hypocrites on the highest level. Now to follow that, I realize that people have thousands of dollars invested in them, and I don't want that money to disappear, that is why I think we should have a "Legacy Masters" that increases the supply, but at an MSRP that keeps prices reasonably high.
So how am I a hypocrit, exactly? I was furious with Garfield Games way back when - I traded some moxes with the understanding I would be able to get more... And then I couldn't. I got over it because it's for the health of the game.
You keep acting like Legacy and Vintage are all that matters - I'd bet there'd be a slight increase in player base and a huge drop in card value.
How come no one ever says they should ban the ABUR lands to preserve the health of Legacy? They'd sooner hope Wizards tanks their reputation on a cheesy cash grab. Want to make sure Legacy lives on? Ban ABUR lands, so that decks can be less greedy with their manabase and more people can play. Problem solved.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 27, 2014, 07:58:32 PM
How come no one ever says they should ban the ABUR lands to preserve the health of Legacy? They'd sooner hope Wizards tanks their reputation on a cheesy cash grab. Want to make sure Legacy lives on? Ban ABUR lands, so that decks can be less greedy with their manabase and more people can play. Problem solved.
This. Players rejoice because they don't have to spend a lot on lands, collectors don't care because they're collectors.
Win/win.
They're still be scarce. They'll still be collectible. Plummet is a bit of a stretch, but resale will probably go down for sure. Wizards never promised not to ban them from Legacy. I say it will achieve the desired effect. Wizards keeps their promise, collectors probably lose money, and people don't play Legacy anymore because they can't use powerful cards (like the ABUR lands). *Shrug*
Ban them from Legacy (which is what most of the complaining people want) and the value will still be there for Vintage.
Quote from: griffin131 on August 27, 2014, 08:44:03 PM
Ban them from Legacy (which is what most of the complaining people want) and the value will still be there for Vintage.
So we can start complaining about the barrier of entry to Vintage being too high and how wizards is killing the format? Yeesh. It's almost like Wizards cannot win here.
BRING BACK ANTE! People will stop worrying about valuable cards in their decks and start winning with janky combos
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 10:06:51 PM
BRING BACK ANTE! People will stop worrying about valuable cards in their decks and start winning with janky combos
He'll yeah
Quote from: Pride the Solo King on August 27, 2014, 10:07:43 PM
Quote from: Muggywuggy on August 27, 2014, 10:06:51 PM
BRING BACK ANTE! People will stop worrying about valuable cards in their decks and start winning with janky combos
He'll yeah
We'll we'll we'll if it isn't autocorrect
Quote from: Dudecore on August 27, 2014, 07:58:32 PM
How come no one ever says they should ban the ABUR lands to preserve the health of Legacy? They'd sooner hope Wizards tanks their reputation on a cheesy cash grab. Want to make sure Legacy lives on? Ban ABUR lands, so that decks can be less greedy with their manabase and more people can play. Problem solved.
That also an option, but I feel that woud upset too many people.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 27, 2014, 08:50:47 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on August 27, 2014, 08:44:03 PM
Ban them from Legacy (which is what most of the complaining people want) and the value will still be there for Vintage.
So we can start complaining about the barrier of entry to Vintage being too high and how wizards is killing the format? Yeesh. It's almost like Wizards cannot win here.
Lol, its a format with Power Nine, the barrier to entry is high that I think people have just given up on it. Are there any tournaments (like 100 people or so) for paper Vintage?
Quote from: griffin131 on August 27, 2014, 07:55:12 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 05:22:42 PM
No, actually no one is asking for an Unlimited. The thing is: everything is stacked up against the Reserved List, Wizards hates it, players hate it, it's causing Legacy and Vintage to suffer, and the only argument for it is "they can't break a promise" and yet no one cries about not giving Unlimited an unlimited printing. People who are arguing for the Reserved List are hypocrites on the highest level. Now to follow that, I realize that people have thousands of dollars invested in them, and I don't want that money to disappear, that is why I think we should have a "Legacy Masters" that increases the supply, but at an MSRP that keeps prices reasonably high.
So how am I a hypocrit, exactly? I was furious with Garfield Games way back when - I traded some moxes with the understanding I would be able to get more... And then I couldn't. I got over it because it's for the health of the game.
So its okay that Wizards broke the promise for the health of the game? Why cant they break the promise for the health of legacy? Players quit ever day, the barrier to entery for legacy is rising everyday, and duals stop existing everyday because they thrown away, lost in fire, etc. The point is, legacy is not sustainable, it will die, its only a matter of time.
Quote from: Dudecore on August 27, 2014, 07:43:06 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 07:14:14 PM
The reason to break the promise is simple, the pros greatly outweigh the cons. The cons are few: some people will get upset, they broke a promise, and no one will ever trust them again (which I still say isn't legit). The pros are numerous: they can use Legacy and Vintage as a Pro Tour format (currently they can't because some countries don't have the cards, or at least that is the excuse), more players can play these formats; with new players, the formats will become more popular which is good for those currently playing it; Wizards stands to make a ridiculous amount of money, players with staples not reprinted (say {Counterbalance} or {Terminus} don't get reprints or something) see a rocketing in the value of their collection, it will give Wizards more freedom (for example, they currently can't print a 2/2 with flying and first strike for {2}{W} because it is on the reserved list), and it pleases the overwhelming majority (at least 90%) of the consumers. Honestly, I am surprised Hasbro hasn't forced them to drop it by now....
So if I made a promise to trade you cards, and but then someone else wanted them, your end is in the mail. It would be OK in your opinion to not trade those cards? It would benefit me and the other person. What if those cards skyrocketed in value for no reason, it would benefit me to not trade them. Would it help me to be known as someone who does not keep their promise? What if I had another trade and promised not to do the same?
If a 2/2 flying first strike is what the game is missing, then I don't want to play this game anymore. Design has been successfully working around not printing that card for years, and will continue.
Again, we all know the reasons why it's a good idea not to make another reserve list. Pleasing 90% of the people (an exaggerated estimate, an actual survey would have to be conducted) is not a good reason to go back on a promise. Even if it benefits Wizards. Truth be told, if they do abandon the reserve list, and go back on the promise for monetary gain - that would be a clear indication of a dishonest money grab.
And to be honest, if magic were designed today - they'd never make the dual lands. Playing multiple colors is supposed to have a drawback. Having basic land types and coming in untapped is not the philosophy the game going for, but that is for another time
Maybe I'm crazy, but I think promises have to mean something.
If you not trading the cards benefited the entire Magic community, go for it. As for everthing else, they already made them, so unless they ban them, we have to deal with them. The difference is, Im open to either solution, and youre not.
Okay, this has gone on long enough. I'm done arguing. It's obvious neither (especially the wrong one :P ) is will to give ground on the issue and I don't feel like bashing my head against a wall anymore.
If you're afraid of the barrier for legacy then everyone should just play Charbelcher or something that doesn't use the duels
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on August 27, 2014, 11:19:57 PM
Okay, this has gone on long enough. I'm done arguing. It's obvious neither (especially the wrong one :P ) is will to give ground on the issue and I don't feel like bashing my head against a wall anymore.
Please, that horse died a long time ago.
I mean you can always use your standard deck in modern and Lego :P
Just not deathrite for modern ;)
Yeah, a lot of you are singing the same sad song that new players sing when they feel like they "deserve" to play legacy... Until they trade $200 worth of standard cards for a dual land, then their song changes, because they want to keep their invested value! Stop complaining about legacy. If you want to play legacy, there are decks that cost under $100. If you don't want to play one of those decks, play Modern (lol that people thing that it's a cheaper format) or just draft or play sealed forever... I'm not a "collector" but I have thousands of dollars worth of cards that I hope will at least keep their value and I've slowly been trading stuff I pull from drafts and prize packs and value trades towards duals. Anyone can do that.