I know I'm now a Hypocrite but I just love Navas' BR Aggro deck that he won GP Santiago with. Like I have to play it! It just looks awesome!!
I'm sorry for my ignorance, but what is net decking?
Quote from: Ertai on November 07, 2013, 01:41:45 AM
I'm sorry for my ignorance, but what is net decking?
Using a decklist that someone else made, which you acquire from the (inter)net. Hence, net deck.
People actually do that?
Wow. Magic has changed a lot.
Quote from: Ertai on November 07, 2013, 01:44:12 AM
People actually do that?
Wow. Magic has changed a lot.
How long has it been since you have played?
Quote from: Mattao19 on November 07, 2013, 01:16:35 AM
I know I'm now a Hypocrite but I just love Navas' BR Aggro deck that he won GP Santiago with. Like I have to play it! It just looks awesome!!
Played GW beats against that deck tonight. Missing a land drop against that deck is no good. Granted, I only ever got one land out. Both games. Man, tonight was bad for me.
Lol so the deck ram well? I just like how it plays vs. Esper (my sworn enemy)!!!
Net decking? Bring forth the sour grapes!
Yeah, EFF ESPER IN THE A :)
If I see another Sphinx's Revelation, I'm going to vomit.
Quote from: LadyGrixis on November 07, 2013, 09:09:40 AM
Yeah, EFF ESPER IN THE A :)
Lol esper is like the red headed step child of magic
Oh it's sooo true there's 2 types of people who play Esper Control:
1. The guys who are the biggest dbags in history and,
2. Actually no, there is only one type of Esper player
Quote from: ConanEdo on November 07, 2013, 09:30:21 AM
I don't understand the irrational hatred of esper...
It's just I play a creature. Ok doom blade. Ok I play a burning tree into burning tree into scavenging ooze ok verdict. Dang ok I play a creature ok Heros downfall then on my turn Aetherling ok GG like its too op IMO
Quote from: ConanEdo on November 07, 2013, 09:30:21 AM
I don't understand the irrational hatred of esper...
Same. Sounds like some people just need to step their game up...
Lol that too but Esper is very strong bc they can stabilize so easily with doom blades into verdicts
Lol not what I mean. I mean is that they are playing magic and you have now way to deal with it. I play aggro so I "should" have the upper hand but I don't bc I simply have no answer to constant removal. I have Ranger Guiles but still that's not even close to enough
Quote from: ConanEdo on November 07, 2013, 09:35:44 AM
Quote from: Mattao19 on November 07, 2013, 09:32:35 AM
Quote from: ConanEdo on November 07, 2013, 09:30:21 AM
I don't understand the irrational hatred of esper...
It's just I play a creature. Ok doom blade. Ok I play a burning tree into burning tree into scavenging ooze ok verdict. Dang ok I play a creature ok Heros downfall then on my turn Aetherling ok GG like its too op IMO
Ok...so they played removal. That makes them a D-bag? Guess that means wizards is full of d-bags for printing those cards :P
Control magic is almost always a thing, the question is whether or not aggro and midrange have more threats than control has answers.
I don't think that we do. Sure Voice and Burningtrees are nice but it's tough you get them to 4 then pow Sphinx and its like cool bro
You also have to remember that we're still three sets away from having a full card pool for standard. Your preferred colors still have a chance of getting cards to balance things out.
Also true but in my case 3 players at my LGS play it and all 3 just give it a bad name bc they are just douchey players
Quote from: LadyGrixis on November 07, 2013, 09:09:40 AM
Yeah, EFF ESPER IN THE A :)
:'( y must everyone hate me?
Eggs and Esper can't be that bad...
Esper control is so weak right now...we lack good early draw, wrath copies 5-8, and truly versitile removal that is not {detention sphere}. There is a decent esper midrange available with ashiok, jace, elsepth, and ætherling. Way too much tappout for me. It says a lot about the current state of control within the meta when I choose to play something other than it at a major event like states.
Quote from: Vileo on November 07, 2013, 01:51:26 AM
Quote from: Ertai on November 07, 2013, 01:44:12 AM
People actually do that?
Wow. Magic has changed a lot.
How long has it been since you have played?
I played off and on during the oddysey block so I suppose that one. Though I have played newer sets, just not as seriously. I'm sure people have been doing that since the invention of the internet, but I doubt it was as popular as is it now that many more children have started.
That's the only reason I can think of. Haha
I have never had a problem against esper control. Actually, those are some of my favorite matchups, ones that actually require me to think. And then for game 2+, I side in my {Burning Earth}... And then the pressure is on them...
Also, the Internet has been around for about 30-40 years now. The aspect we are most familiar with is the WWW, which makes up about 10% of the total Internet...
Quote from: rarehuntertay on November 07, 2013, 02:09:58 PM
Also, the Internet has been around for about 30-40 years now. The aspect we are most familiar with is the WWW, which makes up about 10% of the total Internet...
Well ok haha, but our ability to search for uploaded deck info isn't 30-40 years old :p
I also believe the www wasn't around until the late 80's or early 90's.
If the card is available: deal with it.
For GR or jund folks. How many times have you ghor clan blood rushed on top of {armed//dangerous}?
T4 attack for 8 trample double strike damage
:/
They may not have that doom blade or counter
Quote from: Muggywuggy on November 07, 2013, 03:40:02 PM
If the card is available: deal with it.
For GR or jund folks. How many times have you ghor clan blood rushed on top of {armed//dangerous}?
T4 attack for 8 trample double strike damage
:/
They may not have that doom blade or counter
Oh, we ALWAYS have the doom blade. Lol
Quote from: Mattao19 on November 07, 2013, 09:22:01 AM
Oh it's sooo true there's 2 types of people who play Esper Control:
1. The guys who are the biggest dbags in history and,
2. Actually no, there is only one type of Esper player
BAHAHAHAHAHA!
I'm crying from laughing. Tears XD
I love Esper control, just don't have the money to run it so I use hexproof w/ {Boon Satyr}. {Boon Satyr} is perfect for bestowing in for the win or bouncing back from wipes.
I run Sphinx's Revelation... I just play it with some red. =P
Quote from: Vileo on November 07, 2013, 10:02:47 PM
I run Sphinx's Revelation... I just play it with some red. =P
RWU American is my jam. All day long. Go you!
Quote from: LadyGrixis on November 07, 2013, 10:10:32 PM
Quote from: Vileo on November 07, 2013, 10:02:47 PM
I run Sphinx's Revelation... I just play it with some red. =P
RWU American is my jam. All day long. Go you!
xD Thanks. I mostly made it because I have the lands, and Boros is my guild all day long, and U/W control just doesn't have all the answers I need for my meta. I love resolving {Assemble the Legion}. Like, as soon as that card came out, some guy gave me a foil because it was like, a $1 rare at the time.
Quote from: Vileo on November 07, 2013, 10:13:01 PM
Quote from: LadyGrixis on November 07, 2013, 10:10:32 PM
Quote from: Vileo on November 07, 2013, 10:02:47 PM
I run Sphinx's Revelation... I just play it with some red. =P
RWU American is my jam. All day long. Go you!
xD Thanks. I mostly made it because I have the lands, and Boros is my guild all day long, and U/W control just doesn't have all the answers I need for my meta. I love resolving {Assemble the Legion}. Like, as soon as that card came out, some guy gave me a foil because it was like, a $1 rare at the time.
Bahahahaha! I had a foil and traded it this week for fun things. I still have one left, nonfoil though ;(
I'm still build a flashy American deck for modern. :)
I ran American control before rotation. Was getting like 1st-3rd consistently for like a month an a half. Then all the good cards rotated. {Geist of St. Traft} {Delver of Secrets} {Think Twice}. I tried making something for rotation and it wasn't working. So now I run golgari mid range and it's awesome.
Quote from: NightWolf on November 07, 2013, 10:56:34 PM
I ran American control before rotation. Was getting like 1st-3rd consistently for like a month an a half. Then all the good cards rotated. {Geist of St. Traft} {Delver of Secrets} {Think Twice}. I tried making something for rotation and it wasn't working. So now I run golgari mid range and it's awesome.
Innistrad block was sick! I know the feel. After the gold rotates out and solids come back hopefully we can get back some nastiness
So I'm assuming all of you talking about decks like this are net deckers?
I guess it's not a bad thing?
Quote from: Ertai on November 08, 2013, 12:05:01 AM
So I'm assuming all of you talking about decks like this are net deckers?
I guess it's not a bad thing?
My deck isn't a netdeck, I actually sat down and added a color (Red) to my already "not-netdeck" U/W Control list.
Quote from: Vileo on November 08, 2013, 12:18:33 AM
Quote from: Ertai on November 08, 2013, 12:05:01 AM
So I'm assuming all of you talking about decks like this are net deckers?
I guess it's not a bad thing?
My deck isn't a netdeck, I actually sat down and added a color (Red) to my already "not-netdeck" U/W Control list.
Sorry I didn't mean to offend, but all this talk about deck names made me assume.
I'm from a time where casual was the norm. Haha.
Quote from: Ertai on November 08, 2013, 12:24:30 AM
Quote from: Vileo on November 08, 2013, 12:18:33 AM
Quote from: Ertai on November 08, 2013, 12:05:01 AM
So I'm assuming all of you talking about decks like this are net deckers?
I guess it's not a bad thing?
My deck isn't a netdeck, I actually sat down and added a color (Red) to my already "not-netdeck" U/W Control list.
Sorry I didn't mean to offend, but all this talk about deck names made me assume.
I'm from a time where casual was the norm. Haha.
It's fine, you didn't offend me, lol. And that would be a nice norm. =P Though, that's why I like EDH. Even if you can do some of the most broken things ever in it.
I am about as far from a net decker as possible (check out any of the lists I actually take to tourneys), but I can see the good in it.
The biggest good side is with a simple word or phrase like naya blitz, esper control, or storm we know exactly what their talking about and save tons of time that used to be spent discribing a deck before talking about it.
Having a standard of the "best" decks helps us to plan as a group. People anywhere can hop online and get ideas that are relevant to their play level. Beginners see how to build with synergy and mana curve. Moderate players get ideas for what to work toward (or against) in their deck building, and experts see what the greatest minds have conjured and can deduce valuable information locked in the subtext of the deck and event that a majority over players will never even glimpse.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on November 08, 2013, 12:54:37 AM
I am about as far from a net decker as possible (check out any of the lists I actually take to tourneys), but I can see the good in it.
The biggest good side is with a simple word or phrase like naya blitz, esper control, or storm we know exactly what their talking about and save tons of time that used to be spent discribing a deck before talking about it.
Having a standard of the "best" decks helps us to plan as a group. People anywhere can hop online and get ideas that are relevant to their play level. Beginners see how to build with synergy and mana curve. Moderate players get ideas for what to work toward (or against) in their deck building, and experts see what the greatest minds have conjured and can deduce valuable information locked in the subtext of the deck and event that a majority over players will never even glimpse.
If I could give you a +1 I would. Well put, sir couldn't have said it better myself!
Quote from: Ertai on November 08, 2013, 01:23:46 AM
Quote from: Kaleo42 on November 08, 2013, 12:54:37 AM
I am about as far from a net decker as possible (check out any of the lists I actually take to tourneys), but I can see the good in it.
The biggest good side is with a simple word or phrase like naya blitz, esper control, or storm we know exactly what their talking about and save tons of time that used to be spent discribing a deck before talking about it.
Having a standard of the "best" decks helps us to plan as a group. People anywhere can hop online and get ideas that are relevant to their play level. Beginners see how to build with synergy and mana curve. Moderate players get ideas for what to work toward (or against) in their deck building, and experts see what the greatest minds have conjured and can deduce valuable information locked in the subtext of the deck and event that a majority over players will never even glimpse.
If I could give you a +1 I could. Well put, sir couldn't have said it myself!
+1'd for you. I agree.
I don't see a problem with net decking. It's a game, sometimes there is money on the line. If you look at all the top teams - StarCity, Channel Fireball, ect - they all sort of netdeck in a way. They take successful shells or engines and playtest extensively around maximizing their level of play.
I notice mostly all the resistance to Netdecking are people who bring their homebrew to FNM and lose to a netdeck. Well quite honestly, it's difficult to beat those decks because they've been proven successful. While most people's homebrew are not nearly as scrutinized or play tested.
I've played against plenty of very tuned, excellent rogue decks on MTGO. I've known, and seen many people win Standard 8-man's with ideas they've been kicking around. Because it's very easy to get games in MTGO, you can playtest very quickly and get in tons of games before plunking down money. For many, they can merely play magic in their brains before Friday, when they find themselves paying entry fees for an FNM they cannot possibly win.
Netdecks are also very important for what Kaleo said, planning against the popular decks becomes easier. No matter what way we slice it, a certain number of players will never play a main stream deck. A certain amount of people who will play netdecks won't be good at piloting them. A certain amount won't care about winning. People play Magic for different reasons.
I don't know why people are against net decking. If you think about it logically, it is exactly the same as buying an event deck. Only net decks actually win games. Hu. Zah.
Isn't net decking what we do here? We post post a deck, get opinions and fine tune? that's what a MtG community is all about. Start with an idea and ho from there. If you GTS first or ask opinions first it all comes down to net decking doesn't it?
I remember when there was no FNM and when it was up and coming.
I personally do not play T2, but what erks me is when people swear by their net decks when playing casual. I cannot see the reasoning in that. How can one person claim to be an extremely good player when they take someone else's idea and wins a bunch of casual games.
Now, Dudecore, I completely understand what you're saying, and it makes tons of sense. However, it's those people who home brew and win tourneys.
Now I've been to SCG back in the late 90's and the T1.5 tourney I was in was pretty massive, and yes those decks were recognizable, but back then we never heard of them. We saw the combos, and the card orders, but not the deck names and what not. That's the major part I don't get. Maybe it's a way for kids to remember what type of combo to build. I'm not sure. Either way, MTG has evolved to a point to where it's so worldwide that every kid and their fetus brother plays, so there are bound to be people who want to win and I cannot blame them for that. I would probably do the same. They just do not remember or even know what it's like to build a deck completely from scratch using combos only used by the experienced players.
Either way, it is what it is and I will support players either way. I honestly feel I make more money now because of net deckers, so I cannot complain. Hah
Okay guys, sorry for my rant.
Quote from: Butch1977 on November 08, 2013, 10:38:47 PM
Isn't net decking what we do here? We post post a deck, get opinions and fine tune? that's what a MtG community is all about. Start with an idea and ho from there. If you GTS first or ask opinions first it all comes down to net decking doesn't it?
No, there is a difference. On here you create your own deck and then ask for opinions on how to make it better, Net-decking is simply copying a list from a recent Pro Tour event and using the deck as is or with a few minor tweaks to better fit your meta.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 08, 2013, 10:47:33 PM
Quote from: Butch1977 on November 08, 2013, 10:38:47 PM
Isn't net decking what we do here? We post post a deck, get opinions and fine tune? that's what a MtG community is all about. Start with an idea and ho from there. If you GTS first or ask opinions first it all comes down to net decking doesn't it?
No, there is a difference. On here you create your own deck and then ask for opinions on how to make it better, Net-decking is simply copying a list from a recent Pro Tour event and using the deck as is or with a few minor tweaks to better fit your meta.
I mean this. Someone sits down and makes a deck (net decks just don't create themselves) then their group gives opinions, things are tweeked and honed. Then they get posted on the internet. Then people either copies them or builds against them. We as iMtG throw ideas out there, our friends give suggestions, then we post..... What's the difference? And it all happens on the internet
He means this; looking at specific websites that list deck lists for pro decks of every type and then people copy those by building one.
Talking about decks that you make online is called brainstorming. There's a big difference.
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 12:32:07 AM
He means this; looking at specific websites that list deck lists for pro decks of every type and then people copy those by building one.
Talking about decks that you make online is called brainstorming. There's a big difference.
There is a fine line between homebrews and net decks and the main difference is that alot of homebrews are made by people who are not good deck builders, no offense. But if you are a good deck builder you can build a deck that is almost as good as a net deck. When it comes to tier 1 and competative games it is usually 50% stradegy 30% luck and 20% deck but in casual it is 10% stradegy 40% luck and 50% deck. I think that net deck are just something you deal with not rant about
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 12:32:07 AM
He means this; looking at specific websites that list deck lists for pro decks of every type and then people copy those by building one.
Talking about decks that you make online is called brainstorming. There's a big difference.
Ok, i concede, I don't copy specific decks, but i do GTS for cool combos then personally build around that.
Quote from: JustAWalrus on November 09, 2013, 01:10:09 AM
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 12:32:07 AM
He means this; looking at specific websites that list deck lists for pro decks of every type and then people copy those by building one.
Talking about decks that you make online is called brainstorming. There's a big difference.
There is a fine line between homebrews and net decks and the main difference is that alot of homebrews are made by people who are not good deck builders, no offense. But if you are a good deck builder you can build a deck that is almost as good as a net deck. When it comes to tier 1 and competative games it is usually 50% stradegy 30% luck and 20% deck but in casual it is 10% stradegy 40% luck and 50% deck. I think that net deck are just something you deal with not rant about
This is illogical. To make a homebrew you areprobably a very GOOD deck builder as it is much harderto make a dec from scratch and with limited resources than it is to go online, read a decklist, buy some cards, and play.
Quote from: Mlerner12 on November 09, 2013, 10:07:51 AM
Quote from: JustAWalrus on November 09, 2013, 01:10:09 AM
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 12:32:07 AM
He means this; looking at specific websites that list deck lists for pro decks of every type and then people copy those by building one.
Talking about decks that you make online is called brainstorming. There's a big difference.
There is a fine line between homebrews and net decks and the main difference is that alot of homebrews are made by people who are not good deck builders, no offense. But if you are a good deck builder you can build a deck that is almost as good as a net deck. When it comes to tier 1 and competative games it is usually 50% stradegy 30% luck and 20% deck but in casual it is 10% stradegy 40% luck and 50% deck. I think that net deck are just something you deal with not rant about
This is illogical. To make a homebrew you areprobably a very GOOD deck builder as it is much harderto make a dec from scratch and with limited resources than it is to go online, read a decklist, buy some cards, and play.
What about new players who build a deck out of random cards they pull up out of nowhere and people who think they can build a good deck when they cant. If you make a homebrew that cant win then maybe you arent such a good deck builder after all.
Im not trying to offend anyone but if you cant build a competative homebrew then why can you rant about how net decks are too good. And where do you think net decks come from, they dont fall from the sky people think them up they started as homebrews too. The last Grand Prix was won by a homebrew rogue deck.
Quote from: JustAWalrus on November 09, 2013, 11:09:38 AM
Im not trying to offend anyone but if you cant build a competative homebrew then why can you rant about how net decks are too good. And where do you think net decks come from, they dont fall from the sky people think them up they started as homebrews too. The last Grand Prix was won by a homebrew rogue deck.
Total agreement. Someone or some team has to dream it up on the first place. Can't get mad cause they have access to cards. That would be like a teenager getting mad at me when I buy a booster box they can only afford a pack. And net decks are a great way for ideas you may not have noticed in a format.
This is why I love drafts. Random cards, thinking quickly, someone who consistently wins draft tournaments is most likely a great deck builder. I see competitive players mostly follow deck lists and tweak a few cards here and there.
Quote from: Dhoulmagus on November 09, 2013, 11:15:14 AM
This is why I love drafts. Random cards, thinking quickly, someone who consistently wins draft tournaments is most likely a great deck builder. I see competitive players mostly follow deck lists and tweak a few cards here and there.
Yeah, too bad there is only one draft in this town every month. :-/
I see a lot of hate on certain types of decks in this thread, *ahem* "esper" If a deck consistently wins, use what ever style and cards you want. There are a lot of cards that seem cheap and unfair, but 9 times out of ten there is a way around it.
Quote from: JustAWalrus on November 09, 2013, 11:04:43 AM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on November 09, 2013, 10:07:51 AM
Quote from: JustAWalrus on November 09, 2013, 01:10:09 AM
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 12:32:07 AM
He means this; looking at specific websites that list deck lists for pro decks of every type and then people copy those by building one.
Talking about decks that you make online is called brainstorming. There's a big difference.
There is a fine line between homebrews and net decks and the main difference is that alot of homebrews are made by people who are not good deck builders, no offense. But if you are a good deck builder you can build a deck that is almost as good as a net deck. When it comes to tier 1 and competative games it is usually 50% stradegy 30% luck and 20% deck but in casual it is 10% stradegy 40% luck and 50% deck. I think that net deck are just something you deal with not rant about
This is illogical. To make a homebrew you areprobably a very GOOD deck builder as it is much harderto make a dec from scratch and with limited resources than it is to go online, read a decklist, buy some cards, and play.
What about new players who build a deck out of random cards they pull up out of nowhere and people who think they can build a good deck when they cant. If you make a homebrew that cant win then maybe you arent such a good deck builder after all.
So reading a deck thats pemade online tha you put literally no thought into makes you a good deck builder? At least if you build yourown not good deck it shows you can put thought into things like that.
I create competitive homebrews all the time. Creating a homebrew is a million times harder then net decking and will increase your ability to build decks. That said I don't look down in netdeckers but I don't condone it. I personally feel that it takes away from the game, yet each person takes something different from the game. So it all comes down to oppinion and what you play for...to win or for fun. Both can be fun and win but net decking is more geared toward players that are just in it for winning.
Agreed, it's somewhat lame to just copy cards from a list and not have to think about anything. I have never looked online at a deck list to build a deck. If you are a good deck builder, your deck might look like it came from a list because of obvious good card combos.
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on November 09, 2013, 11:36:02 AM
I create competitive homebrews all the time. Creating a homebrew is a million times harder then net decking and will increase your ability to build decks. That said I don't look down in netdeckers but I don't condone it. I personally feel that it takes away from the game, yet each person takes something different from the game. So it all comes down to oppinion and what you play for...to win or for fun. Both can be fun and win but net decking is more geared toward players that are just in it for winning.
^^^So true. Also, if you are playing just to win, I'm sure there are are other things you could do to get you the same sense of winning.
Also, in my experience, people running net decks tend to get a little more angry and rude when their expensive deck gets beat by a janky homebrew. This, I feel also takes away from the game. As it is just a game it should be fun, not something to get extremely mad over.
Wow...i am very dissapointed in those who just called me and so many others a bad deck builder. Allow me to point out a few very important facks.
First off I personaly have top 8'd spring states and fall states this last year both with homebrews and the competition was indeed rough with net deks and homebrews running around. I also won m14 game day with a homebrew at the shop where the most people show up. Final personal point is that at a shop that always has 5 rounds at fnm because 30-50 people show up I have not been in the top 8 a wopping 10 times in the last year (including the 4 times i did not play).
Now for me team. Half of them a good deck builders how generally use home brews and all of them get 4-1's most most often. The other 4 of us will try out met decks to learn about then or more commonly play somethig we worked together to build.
Now for everyone else. How does a net deck become a net deck. SOME GOOD DECK BUILDER MAKES A HOMEBREW AND WINS. Without good deck builders homebrewing there would be no deck to look up and copy because you know it's good. Channel fireball is just like my team theyre just way more experienced. They build decks from scratch, if their testing shows that their homebrews are not up to par then they bite the bullet and modify a net deck which incidently means it's a time of fairly stagnant competiive play.
The best deckbuilders are those that homebrew and win. The adverage homebrewer lacks one of or all of these three things. Technical skill to play the deck appropriately or understand on a deeper level what goes into construction and playing. Experience that grants a overview of what is good without having to do extensive research (i dont mean obvious things like {thundermaw hellkite} I mean things like {mana bloom} is bad, but when your 3 color deck doesnt have {farseek} and you have {blind obedience} anyways mana bloom becomes good). The final and most common quality limiting the effectiveness of deckbuilders is card pool. When you actually have access to everything the speed at which you can learn and test is drastically increased on tip of your ability to build anything.
There's my morning rant. Never call a homebrewer a bad deck builder or bad player. Homebrewing is how you become good, net decking keeps your play level pretty low because you arent asking the important questions that will lead you to the answers that make you a better player.
I don't anyone was doing that.... I think they were saying Netdeckers were bad deck builders... in most cases.
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 01:10:19 PM
I don't anyone was doing that.... I think they were saying Netdeckers were bad deck builders... in most cases.
I did miss read it in my waking up stooper. I still hit decent points towards the end though so oh well life moves on. I saw a bunch of the homebrewers are generally bad statements and took them without the complete context.
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on November 09, 2013, 12:47:56 PM
Also, in my experience, people running net decks tend to get a little more angry and rude when their expensive deck gets beat by a janky homebrew. This, I feel also takes away from the game. As it is just a game it should be fun, not something to get extremely mad over.
I agree with this. When they get beat after laying down a few hundred bucks because they either don't understand the synergy of the deck or they aren't used to those particular mechanics they get infuriated.
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 01:10:19 PM
I don't anyone was doing that.... I think they were saying Netdeckers were bad deck builders... in most cases.
No, it was said outright that homebrews are bad deck builders:
Quote from: JustAWalrus on November 09, 2013, 01:10:09 AM
There is a fine line between homebrews and net decks and the main difference is that alot of homebrews are made by people who are not good deck builders
Quote from: Kaleo42 on November 09, 2013, 01:04:52 PM
Wow...i am very dissapointed in those who just called me and so many others a bad deck builder. Allow me to point out a few very important facks.
First off I personaly have top 8'd spring states and fall states this last year both with homebrews and the competition was indeed rough with net deks and homebrews running around. I also won m14 game day with a homebrew at the shop where the most people show up. Final personal point is that at a shop that always has 5 rounds at fnm because 30-50 people show up I have not been in the top 8 a wopping 10 times in the last year (including the 4 times i did not play).
Now for me team. Half of them a good deck builders how generally use home brews and all of them get 4-1's most most often. The other 4 of us will try out met decks to learn about then or more commonly play somethig we worked together to build.
Now for everyone else. How does a net deck become a net deck. SOME GOOD DECK BUILDER MAKES A HOMEBREW AND WINS. Without good deck builders homebrewing there would be no deck to look up and copy because you know it's good. Channel fireball is just like my team theyre just way more experienced. They build decks from scratch, if their testing shows that their homebrews are not up to par then they bite the bullet and modify a net deck which incidently means it's a time of fairly stagnant competiive play.
The best deckbuilders are those that homebrew and win. The adverage homebrewer lacks one of or all of these three things. Technical skill to play the deck appropriately or understand on a deeper level what goes into construction and playing. Experience that grants a overview of what is good without having to do extensive research (i dont mean obvious things like {thundermaw hellkite} I mean things like {mana bloom} is bad, but when your 3 color deck doesnt have {farseek} and you have {blind obedience} anyways mana bloom becomes good). The final and most common quality limiting the effectiveness of deckbuilders is card pool. When you actually have access to everything the speed at which you can learn and test is drastically increased on tip of your ability to build anything.
There's my morning rant. Never call a homebrewer a bad deck builder or bad player. Homebrewing is how you become good, net decking keeps your play level pretty low because you arent asking the important questions that will lead you to the answers that make you a better player.
This. Nail on the head kaleo. This is almost exactly what I was trying to say.
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on November 09, 2013, 01:20:05 PM
This. Nail on the head kaleo. This is almost exactly what I was trying to say.
Disregard the typoes though. I just woke up.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 09, 2013, 01:15:30 PM
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 01:10:19 PM
I don't anyone was doing that.... I think they were saying Netdeckers were bad deck builders... in most cases.
No, it was said outright that homebrews are bad deck builders:
Quote from: JustAWalrus on November 09, 2013, 01:10:09 AM
There is a fine line between homebrews and net decks and the main difference is that alot of homebrews are made by people who are not good deck builders
Don't misconstrue. He said most, not all. And that's true In a lot of cases cause a lot of home brews are made by casual players who don't understand the game well. Not all of them, but a lot.
And, people who say netdeckers just look up a deck and play without thinking, that's an ignorant point of view. If you don't understand a deck, you will never win, no matter what it is. If someone built an esper, since it was a hot topic in this thread, but had never played esper before or played much at all, and I build some junk home brew, I could best them simply because I understand the game and cards better. But at the same time, you can't get mad at people because they understand the game and can pilot a lot of decks. That's actually pretty difficult to accomplish.
To my point from before. What happened to all the people who would create a random home brew ALL THE TIME, not because it's winning a SCG somewhere else, but because it's a good combo, and fun to play...
I guess the old days of MTG is gone, and it's all mainstream now!
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 02:13:00 PM
To my point from before. What happened to all the people who would create a random home brew ALL THE TIME, not because it's winning a SCG somewhere else, but because it's a good combo, and fun to play...
I guess the old days of MTG is gone, and it's all mainstream now!
That's 95% of my decks except I had to net deck this Rakdos one it was just awesome!
Well I'm pretty sure from when you played, was the Internet nearly as big as it is now? Cause I don't think it was.
It's a huge resource that is a great help.
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 02:13:00 PM
To my point from before. What happened to all the people who would create a random home brew ALL THE TIME, not because it's winning a SCG somewhere else, but because it's a good combo, and fun to play...
I guess the old days of MTG is gone, and it's all mainstream now!
Just look for those who win tournements within the first month of a new set.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on November 09, 2013, 02:16:37 PM
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 02:13:00 PM
To my point from before. What happened to all the people who would create a random home brew ALL THE TIME, not because it's winning a SCG somewhere else, but because it's a good combo, and fun to play...
I guess the old days of MTG is gone, and it's all mainstream now!
Just look for those who win tournements within the first month of a new set.
Exactly kaleo. Then shortly after thousands of people will net deck those winning decks. I have over 30 decks. All consistently winning decks accept the ones made for the lolz (I've got 2 or 3 that don't even have win cons lol). None net decked. Now I have used the internet to find synergies and cards that fit my deck style but never an entire deck list.
Quote from: Mattao19 on November 07, 2013, 09:22:01 AM
Oh it's sooo true there's 2 types of people who play Esper Control:
1. The guys who are the biggest dbags in history and,
2. Actually no, there is only one type of Esper player
😭
Quote from: gtfotis on November 09, 2013, 02:33:59 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on November 07, 2013, 09:22:01 AM
Oh it's sooo true there's 2 types of people who play Esper Control:
1. The guys who are the biggest dbags in history and,
2. Actually no, there is only one type of Esper player
😭
Except for you Otis you're the exception :D
I personally love my home brew deck
It's my only standard deck, so my LGS is getting used to it, but most don't know it still. I just added desecration demon to it. He was my perfect bomb missing.
I'm bringing game day champ players (they love displaying their mat) to actual frustration. Their net decks aren't crushing me and I'm actually doing moves that crush them (8/8-10/10 double strike tramples coming at you!)
I've added enough removal and saves where Im not relying on a card for winning and a few heroes downfall don't do anything to my creature roster
Thoughtseize me all you want: you're still not going to take my critical cards.
With a net deck: they could easily know my win cons and what my deck is and how to beat it.
With my homebrew deck: unless you've played me consistently, you won't know what my deck strategy is.
That's why I like net decks too, as they allow me to test myself against what tournaments will have.
What deck do you run?
It's a Jund deck that revolves around blood rush ghor clans and {flesh//blood}/{armed//dangerous}
With master of cruelties & sire of insanity late game win cons/defenses
Throw in some lolly trolls, spike jesters and dreg manglers and a lot of removal/zaps
Super fun. I love blowing up 3 bombs in a row, take mine I don't mind :) ill take your next 3
Quote from: Kaleo42 on November 09, 2013, 02:16:37 PM
Quote from: Ertai on November 09, 2013, 02:13:00 PM
To my point from before. What happened to all the people who would create a random home brew ALL THE TIME, not because it's winning a SCG somewhere else, but because it's a good combo, and fun to play...
I guess the old days of MTG is gone, and it's all mainstream now!
Just look for those who win tournements within the first month of a new set.
Yeah! Those are the people you know are good.
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on November 09, 2013, 02:28:26 PM
None net decked. Now I have used the internet to find synergies and cards that fit my deck style but never an entire deck list.
^^^This is what people should do instead of net-decking. Do research, get ideas for what works and what doesn't then compile a deck, test it, tweak it and use it. You still get to make competitive decks but they are your own.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 09, 2013, 03:19:15 PM
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on November 09, 2013, 02:28:26 PM
None net decked. Now I have used the internet to find synergies and cards that fit my deck style but never an entire deck list.
^^^This is what people should do instead of net-decking. Do research, get ideas for what works and what doesn't then compile a deck, test it, tweak it and use it. You still get to make competitive decks but they are your own.
Exactly :)
I took second place at my theros game day using my home brew esper deck with the infinite ætherling/Obzedat combo, losing to a middle aged dude that bought the aggro blue devotion deck card for card :l
Afterwards he goes on to admit he bought it just to win the Elspeth playmat and how he "normally wouldn't play a deck like this around you kids" (I play at a small lcs)
Infinite Aetherling Obzedat combo?
I think he is talking about how {Ætherling} and {Obzedat, Ghost Council} can be recurred with {Whip of Erebos}, and then you can keep them until they die again if they survive the turn. Rinse and repeat!
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on November 09, 2013, 04:49:45 PM
I think he is talking about how {Ætherling} and {Obzedat, Ghost Council} can be recurred with {Whip of Erebos}, and then you can keep them until they die again if they survive the turn. Rinse and repeat!
True I love how that works. Great card design
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on November 09, 2013, 04:49:45 PM
I think he is talking about how {Ætherling} and {Obzedat, Ghost Council} can be recurred with {Whip of Erebos}, and then you can keep them until they die again if they survive the turn. Rinse and repeat!
Exactly! I love those guys :D
{Thoughtseize} my {Ætherling}? Thanks, I'll just cast him for 4 mana! 😬
Another thing I like to do is if I have an Obzedat cycling in and out and one in the graveyard, I'll have him return on turn, swing, bring back Obzedat to sac my first one, exile at end of turn for an easy 9+ damage 😋 Also rinse and repeat!
In play Esper everyone. I've been playing Esper every chance I get since 2001. I like those colors, I feel most comfortable with those colors and they're usually powerful. I haven't seen this much hate against "4 mana, derp, turn sideways, Bloodrush" strategies. I don't like playing aggro decks, I've basically avoid playing aggro decks whenever possible. Esper is fine, it's just recycled at this point - with {Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver} instead of {Nephalia Drownyard}.
To Kaleo's point, that all sounds good. It's true people who never learn to brew competitively are rarely successful on a high level. Some people do not have a team, but access to money to build decks. To each their own. I don't begrudge people who use netdecks, the genie is out of the bottle - there is no putting it back in.
Quote from: Dudecore on November 09, 2013, 05:27:43 PM
In play Esper everyone. I've been playing Esper every chance I get since 2001. I like those colors, I feel most comfortable with those colors and they're usually powerful. I haven't seen this much hate against "4 mana, derp, turn sideways, Bloodrush" strategies. I don't like playing aggro decks, I've basically avoid playing aggro decks whenever possible. Esper is fine, it's just recycled at this point - with {Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver} instead of {Nephalia Drownyard}.
To Kaleo's point, that all sounds good. It's true people who never learn to brew competitively are rarely successful on a high level. Some people do not have a team, but access to money to build decks. To each their own. I don't begrudge people who use netdecks, the genie is out of the bottle - there is no putting it back in.
Agreed! Although I have never copied a deck card by card, I have never been around a strong Magic community. If it wasn't for net decks i would not know what was standard strong. I can usually get two booster boxes on release weekend but that still cant get all the cards. If it wasn't for net decks I would even know about a lot of different insight.
Looking at pro tour decks is a great idea, it adds to your understanding of both the game and the current state of the meta. My problem with net-decking is people who think they are big shots because they have the card-for-card #1 deck show up to FNM and act like jerks.
I've personally never net decked. All my builds have been Homebrew, my Junk Lifegain, Selesnya, and especially my Grixis Control which is always being worked on. I'm not against Net Decking, but I don't think people should be big shots simply because they have money, but rather their skill/deck building. I'd much rather take my Grixis and go 3-1 then net deck mono blue beats and go 4-0. Just my opinion though
There have been several threads about net decking on here in the past... Eventually the discussion will come to the conclusion that it is really an argument of competitive vs. casual.... The player archetypes outlined by MARO usually come into play... My response now is the same as it was then...
Magic is many things to many people, so like it or not, some people will play it (according to another person) "the wrong way".
This is true for every aspect of the game, from deck building to play style.
Decide what it is that you like about magic, then do it.
Decide what you don't like, and don't.
Come to the realization that everyone who plays has their own opinions and beliefs. (This is a good thing, I promise)
Play magic with like minded people... Otherwise you are setting yourself up for failure ... Whether it be getting kicked from a playgroup ... Or losing at FNM... Because each player has different ideas about what the game 'should be'... And what exactly a failure is.
Magic is a game. A game that can be played many different ways, for many different reasons. That my friends, is why magic is amazing.
Wow that was beautifully written!
Quote from: Mattao19 on November 10, 2013, 02:53:29 AM
Wow that was beautifully written!
Agreed. He gets a +1 from me.
Quote from: Wizardmook on November 10, 2013, 01:04:59 PM
Home brews are great as it confuses the hell out of the netdeck sheep as they have no idea what they are up against.
True. Also, if you met deck you can't say you're a better player than a home brewer, since it's the net deck maker that is. That's just my opinion, thought.
Actually, I didn't mention this but I won my Gatecrash gameday playmat with a homebrew. Boros aggro. {Ash Zealot}s and {Champion of the Parish} and {Hellrider} and {Frontline Medic} and {Thundermaw} and stuffs. I think I also played {Gather the Townsfolk}, but I don't remember if I had cut it at that point or not.
Quote from: Wizardmook on November 10, 2013, 01:04:59 PM
Home brews are great as it confuses the hell out of the netdeck sheep as they have no idea what they are up against.
I usually don't bash people for playing magic, whether they net deck or home brew, last night at my store we had a casual tourney, any format goes and 10 out of the 35 people that played had a standard net deck. I knew they were net decks because I asked them what deck it was and where they got it. At first just to joke around, and then realized they were very serious.
That's a lot of people who copy decks. I mean they pay my bills, so I'm not going to complain. Haha
Bahahaha nice
Quote from: Ertai on November 10, 2013, 08:19:49 PM
Quote from: Wizardmook on November 10, 2013, 01:04:59 PM
Home brews are great as it confuses the hell out of the netdeck sheep as they have no idea what they are up against.
I usually don't bash people for playing magic, whether they net deck or home brew, last night at my store we had a casual tourney, any format goes and 10 out of the 35 people that played had a standard net deck. I knew they were net decks because I asked them what deck it was and where they got it. At first just to joke around, and then realized they were very serious.
That's a lot of people who copy decks. I mean they pay my bills, so I'm not going to complain. Haha
YOU OWN A STORE!?!?! That's awesome, where is it?
Reno Nevada. If you're close, come check us out!
Quote from: Mlerner12 on November 07, 2013, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: LadyGrixis on November 07, 2013, 09:09:40 AM
Yeah, EFF ESPER IN THE A :)
:'( y must everyone hate me?
Eggs and Esper can't be that bad...
You haven't even physically made either of those decks!!!!!
Quote from: Austinist1 on November 10, 2013, 09:46:22 PM
Quote from: Mlerner12 on November 07, 2013, 10:18:28 AM
Quote from: LadyGrixis on November 07, 2013, 09:09:40 AM
Yeah, EFF ESPER IN THE A :)
:'( y must everyone hate me?
Eggs and Esper can't be that bad...
You haven't even physically made either of those decks!!!!!
ITS THE THOUGHT THAT COUNTS
Quote from: Ertai on November 10, 2013, 08:52:08 PM
Reno Nevada. If you're close, come check us out!
Western New York, so...not even close to close. If I ever go out that way though, I'll definitely stop by.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on November 10, 2013, 09:54:05 PM
Quote from: Ertai on November 10, 2013, 08:52:08 PM
Reno Nevada. If you're close, come check us out!
Western New York, so...not even close to close. If I ever go out that way though, I'll definitely stop by.
Awesome! And if you ever get ahold of complete sets that we need in my trade binder, I can trade or pay cash!
Most are extremely hard to find, but I always am open to negotiations.