New pope

[Freerthanu]

Man, I feel like I missed out of this conversation while I was at church today. Its awesome this conversation has stayed so civil for so long.

Dudecore: Im still going to respond, just give me a little while longer.

[Bookmeister]

"Believe in me, or be forever tormented in the afterlife".

This is not really what Christianity teaches. It teaches that when you die, you simply die and this is true for all of us. Now, when you believe in God according To Jesus' teachings, at the end of times you will be granted resurrection and eternal life.

Then what is the punishment for not believing? Is it not Hell, a place of torment? It was my understanding that if you believe, you go to Heaven. A place of paradise and wonder. If you don't, you go to Hell. A place of torture and horror. To me, that translates as "Believe in me, or face punishment."

Well, no, there isn't a punishment at all, God simply refuses certain services to people who do not accept his open agreement. Unless you claim that I'm punishing you by not giving you free access to iMtG Server, for example.

Your comments amaze me. I believe you are not a Christian, correct me if I am wrong. If I am right you appear to grasp Christianity better than some Christians I know.

[Piotr]

"Believe in me, or be forever tormented in the afterlife".

This is not really what Christianity teaches. It teaches that when you die, you simply die and this is true for all of us. Now, when you believe in God according To Jesus' teachings, at the end of times you will be granted resurrection and eternal life.

Then what is the punishment for not believing? Is it not Hell, a place of torment? It was my understanding that if you believe, you go to Heaven. A place of paradise and wonder. If you don't, you go to Hell. A place of torture and horror. To me, that translates as "Believe in me, or face punishment."

Well, no, there isn't a punishment at all, God simply refuses certain services to people who do not accept his open agreement. Unless you claim that I'm punishing you by not giving you free access to iMtG Server, for example.

Your comments amaze me. I believe you are not a Christian, correct me if I am wrong. If I am right you appear to grasp Christianity better than some Christians I know.

Why thank you. Define 'Christian', please ;] I was Christened.

[Keyeto]

Then I ask this question: If Hell is not punishment, what is it? The bible seemed very clear when describing Hell.

Revelation 14:10 "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone"
Revelation 14:11 "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night"
Revelation 20:14 "This is the second death, the lake of fire"

[Bookmeister]

"Believe in me, or be forever tormented in the afterlife".

This is not really what Christianity teaches. It teaches that when you die, you simply die and this is true for all of us. Now, when you believe in God according To Jesus' teachings, at the end of times you will be granted resurrection and eternal life.

Then what is the punishment for not believing? Is it not Hell, a place of torment? It was my understanding that if you believe, you go to Heaven. A place of paradise and wonder. If you don't, you go to Hell. A place of torture and horror. To me, that translates as "Believe in me, or face punishment."

Well, no, there isn't a punishment at all, God simply refuses certain services to people who do not accept his open agreement. Unless you claim that I'm punishing you by not giving you free access to iMtG Server, for example.

Your comments amaze me. I believe you are not a Christian, correct me if I am wrong. If I am right you appear to grasp Christianity better than some Christians I know.

Why thank you. Define 'Christian', please ;] I was Christened.

One who has faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

[Birdbrain]

Then I ask this question: If Hell is not punishment, what is it? The bible seemed very clear when describing Hell.

Revelation 14:10 "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone"
Revelation 14:11 "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night"
Revelation 20:14 "This is the second death, the lake of fire"

like I said before. Hell is a separation from God. At least that's what I understand. Someone above explained it better than I did

[Keyeto]

Then I ask this question: If Hell is not punishment, what is it? The bible seemed very clear when describing Hell.

Revelation 14:10 "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone"
Revelation 14:11 "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night"
Revelation 20:14 "This is the second death, the lake of fire"

like I said before. Hell is a separation from God. At least that's what I understand. Someone above explained it better than I did

So presenting Hell as fire, brimstone, torment, and a second death is just another way of saying "Without God"? That seems very cryptic. Why not just say, "Hell is the absence of God" or something?

[Keyeto]

Now let me see if I have this straight. Hell is being separated from God. This is undesirable, as the presence of God is a wonderful thing. To those who believe in God, this would be torment, as they have to live without the most beautiful thing possible; God's love and presence. This would mean to non-believers that Hell is nothing. They live without God everyday, so being without God is no punishment at all. Is this correct?

[Freerthanu]

1. What "atrocities" does Western Religion as a whole commit today?

- The new pope, "Francis," cooperated with the bloody Argentine military dictatorship from 1975-1983. He is a fascist, human rights abuser and enabler. He is also a homophobe, against same-sex marriage, against abortion, as well as being on the wrong side of history regarding many critical issues. A relic of a time well past.
- Denial of condom use in africa, contributing to the spread of AIDs.
- The large scale matter of child rape, which was actively and knowingly covered up by the former pope. It was one of the largest obstruction of justice cases in the history of the world - and no one was arrested or prosecuted.
- Continued denial of atrocities that are meet only with silence by the Catholic Church. Their sins absolved, and in some cases - people are given asylum.

2. Many of our most beloved scientists were Christian. Ever hear of Sir Isaac Newton?

Just because a scientist believes in god is not evidence for its existence. It makes no claims that it is an even worthy idea. People can be scientists and have other faulty ideas. Sir Isaac Newton is not the Übermensch.

3. Has the secular government ever tried to "suppress" anything or any "scientific advances"?

To this, I'll half heartily agree. The Catholic Church has been particularly good at adopting new medicine and condoning its use (with the exception of the condom thinf). They don't offer that you "pray" as an alternative for cancer treatment. That being said - the church's official stance is that evolution isn't real, the earth is only 5,000 years old and Jesus was a real person.

As with most religions. People believe what they want. To some the idea of a "kill your neighbor for working on the sabbath" is silly, to others - it's in the bible, the literal word of god

.The thing is secular governments are awful, terrible things that have to go. Every government has to go. That is a seperate argument. The thing is that a "secular" government includes religious people - which is why stem cell research was stifled. Also, a "secular" government (which does not exist) does things because that's what the people want, not because they're "secular".

4. Have you ever tried and listened to a modern day Christian Scientist? Try Dr. Ken Haam.

What realm of science does Christian Science occupy? Sounds not like science to me...

Its very easy for non- christians to knock religion, but I doubt most of them have ever tried to look at both sides of the issue and research Creationism or Intelligent Design, which there are thousands of scientists who believe in them.

Thousands of people supported slavery, genocide, imperialism and worse. We cannot form a proper basis of opinion of anything based on what the popular opinion is. Creationism and Intelligent Design is not science.

I think there is a fundamental problem with respect for evidence. If we have to form a basis for belief, we can say what you would about science - you can move the goal posts so that you can say "what is proof?" - you can say "I believe it and no one can say I'm wrong" - but at the end of the day: what couldn't you do that with? If you exhibit a lack of respect for evidence in the face of god, I can just change the name and do it myself.

The simple fact that you can prove something without evidence, allows me to disprove it without evidence. And visa versa. So without a respect for evidence, we wouldn't have anything but "gut" instincts, which are not quantifiable.

[Birdbrain]

Then I ask this question: If Hell is not punishment, what is it? The bible seemed very clear when describing Hell.

Revelation 14:10 "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone"
Revelation 14:11 "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night"
Revelation 20:14 "This is the second death, the lake of fire"

like I said before. Hell is a separation from God. At least that's what I understand. Someone above explained it better than I did

So presenting Hell as fire, brimstone, torment, and a second death is just another way of saying "Without God"? That seems very cryptic. Why not just say, "Hell is the absence of God" or something?

well. If you accept that God is the source of all life, than the absence of God is death eternal.

I actually don't think I can clearly answer your question honestly. The context in which it was written has to be studied.

Maybe that was a attempt at explaining something they couldn't explain. Like if a caveman saw a 7-47. They'd say it looked like a bird.

I honestly can't answer this

[Freerthanu]

Sorry, trying to type response and accidentally quoted something.

[Birdbrain]

Sorry, trying to type response and accidentally quoted something.

click on the message. At the bottom of it, there is an option to remove your post

[Piotr]

Then I ask this question: If Hell is not punishment, what is it? The bible seemed very clear when describing Hell.

Revelation 14:10 "he will be tormented with fire and brimstone"
Revelation 14:11 "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night"
Revelation 20:14 "This is the second death, the lake of fire"

Yet, this is not what Christianity teaches ;]

I do not take Bible literally and neither do Christians. Bible is not logical, as far as I'm told.

[Piotr]

Now let me see if I have this straight. Hell is being separated from God. This is undesirable, as the presence of God is a wonderful thing. To those who believe in God, this would be torment, as they have to live without the most beautiful thing possible; God's love and presence. This would mean to non-believers that Hell is nothing. They live without God everyday, so being without God is no punishment at all. Is this correct?

I believe so, yes.

[Birdbrain]

Now let me see if I have this straight. Hell is being separated from God. This is undesirable, as the presence of God is a wonderful thing. To those who believe in God, this would be torment, as they have to live without the most beautiful thing possible; God's love and presence. This would mean to non-believers that Hell is nothing. They live without God everyday, so being without God is no punishment at all. Is this correct?

God is in this world. Therefore, non-believers don't know what it's like without God