New pope

[Hays413]

"Believe in me, or be forever tormented in the afterlife".

This is not really what Christianity teaches. It teaches that when you die, you simply die and this is true for all of us. Now, when you believe in God according To Jesus' teachings, at the end of times you will be granted resurrection and eternal life.

Then what is the punishment for not believing? Is it not Hell, a place of torment? It was my understanding that if you believe, you go to Heaven. A place of paradise and wonder. If you don't, you go to Hell. A place of torture and horror. To me, that translates as "Believe in me, or face punishment."

Which we have to remember, none of that is proven to be true. Without truly knowing, ie dying, we can't know. Even if somebody died and came back and said they know they answer, we can't prove them wrong and they can't prove themselves right. But that's niether here not there because hello, undead zombie!

[Dudecore]

Keyeto doesn't play the guitar!!
He's lying to all of us!

Pretty bold claim, can you prove it?

NO I CAN'T!
But I also can't disprove it either!
So either way I'm right!
Bahaha, oh and the earth isn't 13.7 billion years old! It's only 6000!!
And man walked with the dinosaurs!

This is the type of argument we've been trying to avoid.

[Gorzo]

Lets hope none makes a .politics. thread
👀

It's happened before, and usually ends up like this strong opinions/beliefs clashing. I tend to avoid arguing on such matters, because trying to change someone's religion or beliefs by arguing with them is like trying to stop a freight train with your testicles.

What's so bad about accepting other's different beliefs if it works for them? I have close friends from Atheists to Greek Orthodox to Buddhist, and myself a Deist, and yet we've never even had a single argument about it. There is some democrat vs republican teasing during election seasons, but never anything ill-spirited.

What is so difficult about respect?

[Hays413]

Keyeto doesn't play the guitar!!
He's lying to all of us!

Pretty bold claim, can you prove it?

NO I CAN'T!
But I also can't disprove it either!
So either way I'm right!
Bahaha, oh and the earth isn't 13.7 billion years old! It's only 6000!!
And man walked with the dinosaurs!

This is the type of argument we've been trying to avoid.

But inevitable.

Or maybe I was testing the community's faith to not fall backwards into the age old Internet arguing. Just like god tested Job...

[Keyeto]

Lets hope none makes a .politics. thread
👀

It's happened before, and usually ends up like this strong opinions/beliefs clashing. I tend to avoid arguing on such matters, because trying to change someone's religion or beliefs by arguing with them is like trying to stop a freight train with your testicles.

What's so bad about accepting other's different beliefs if it works for them? I have close friends from Atheists to Greek Orthodox to Buddhist, and myself a Deist, and yet we've never even had a single argument about it. There is some democrat vs republican teasing during election seasons, but never anything ill-spirited.

What is so difficult about respect?

Nothing at all. I certainly have no issue with people who have different beliefs. My friends stretch almost every belief out there, some of them can't make up their mind, and have a different one every few months lol. I like to take these kinds of debates as a learning opportunity. I get to project my thoughts and questions about things (in this case, religion) and hear the thoughts of those who believe otherwise. I'm glad our community has been more intelligent than the typical "god works in mysterious ways" or "you can prove he doesn't exist, so your argument is invalid" copouts. I agree with you though, trying to change someone's beliefs is useless, and painstaking.

[Bookmeister]

What is so beautiful about the Christian belief system is that it is not up to me to change anyone's mind. My commission is to proclaim salvation through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He lived a perfect life we never could. He died as payment for the sins of His people and he was resurrected on the third day assuring us of eternal life. Proclaiming this I have done. Now I can respect and be friends with people who do not believe this because ultimately it is up to God to change hearts and minds.

Once again I truly appreciate the tone of this discussion being one if respect and it not degenerating into name calling and adhominem attacks.

[Kareason]

I know this is hypothetical but I'm going to ask it anyways. If the "first cause" were to be factually determined, what then happens to the concept that God is the first cause and the faith in that idea?  I respect the individual need for faith but we have to admit that it is impossible to "prove" God so the addition/introduction of him into the equation only serves to muddy the waters.

Or to Christians, make it clearer.

In the end, it comes down to faith. You believe or you don't, the choice is yours. All I can tell you is how I feel, what I've seen, and why I believe the way I do.

And I truly respect that. I myself am currently stuck between Deism and Atheism. I find myself leaning a different way about every other day. I will never tell anyone they are wrong to have a belief, so long as that belief does not interfere with the rights and liberties of anyone else. Jefferson said it best, when asked about the beliefs of those around him, "It neither picks my pocket or breaks my arm."  Until it does I am happy.

[Birdbrain]

Very well said. And I agree with you on that. And will just agree to disagree.

I'm also not sure there is any proof that God doesn't exist. So saying he doesn't exist is too an outlandish claim

whoever -1ed me on this. I was merely pointing out we shouldn't judge things before we have evidence one way or another

[Kareason]

Very well said. And I agree with you on that. And will just agree to disagree.

I'm also not sure there is any proof that God doesn't exist. So saying he doesn't exist is too an outlandish claim

whoever -1ed me on this. I was merely pointing out we shouldn't judge things before we have evidence one way or another

I've lost a couple myself. However I am also trying to pass the +1 out for good points made. This has been a great and well handled discussion.

[Hays413]

I lost one too, but hey. This has been a contested topic for 1000's of years. People have opinions, others don't like em. It's life.
I will say though that without a doubt, this community is mature 99% of time. And it's to be respected. But hey, that little 1% has to be there. If not we might as well put on our smoking jackets, get out our pipes, and go "hmmm... Ah yes..." All day l

[SixShotVixXen]

Lets hope none makes a .politics. thread
👀

It's happened before, and usually ends up like this strong opinions/beliefs clashing. I tend to avoid arguing on such matters, because trying to change someone's religion or beliefs by arguing with them is like trying to stop a freight train with your testicles.

What's so bad about accepting other's different beliefs if it works for them? I have close friends from Atheists to Greek Orthodox to Buddhist, and myself a Deist, and yet we've never even had a single argument about it. There is some democrat vs republican teasing during election seasons, but never anything ill-spirited.

What is so difficult about respect?

I have no clue. I know people that have different beliefs for myself, but we never argue about it.

But going back to this testicles with a train thing.
Would his name be Iron Balls??
Just a suggestion... hahah

[Piotr]

"Believe in me, or be forever tormented in the afterlife".

This is not really what Christianity teaches. It teaches that when you die, you simply die and this is true for all of us. Now, when you believe in God according To Jesus' teachings, at the end of times you will be granted resurrection and eternal life.

Then what is the punishment for not believing? Is it not Hell, a place of torment? It was my understanding that if you believe, you go to Heaven. A place of paradise and wonder. If you don't, you go to Hell. A place of torture and horror. To me, that translates as "Believe in me, or face punishment."

Well, no, there isn't a punishment at all, God simply refuses certain services to people who do not accept his open agreement. Unless you claim that I'm punishing you by not giving you free access to iMtG Server, for example.

[Double-O-Scotch]

Isn't the onus on the guitar player? Easier to prove something is true, than it is to prove something to be false. Just saying lol

[Hays413]

Isn't the onus on the guitar player? Easier to prove something is true, than it is to prove something to be false. Just saying lol

LMAO.

[Piotr]

Isn't the onus on the guitar player? Easier to prove something is true, than it is to prove something to be false. Just saying lol

In general? I'm not so sure.

I would say the onus is on the victim.