Jobs

[Boringanarchy2]

So what if in theory we slowly cut back supporting countries that we send billions of dollars to and cut back on military budgets (not drastically, but lets be real here, we can cut a few million here and there and that make that bug of an impact), start funneling that into the education system. Over say, 8-9-10 years, we have a better educated group of young adults that will HOPEFULLY lead to better opportunities for a percentage of these people. HOPEFULLY reducing the amount needed for welfare, which we funnel the extra into education, circle circle, MAYBE we cut the need for it in half. I'm not saying stop welfare, I'm saying come up with a plan to reduce the need for it. "Teach people to swim"

We could do that, or we could have some equitable wealth distribution and labour unions worth a ****

[Wingnut]

We could do that, or we could have some equitable wealth distribution and labour unions worth a ****
[/quote]

Equitable wealth distribution (in moderation) I agree with (which we already have). Now labor unions, I'm weary of, ONLY because as employee wages go up than so do product prices. EVERYONE in the country can't make $15 an hour and up, all that is going to do is drive prices through the roof fast, making American made products (even more) impossible to sell overseas as they will simply be too expensive, then people get laid off cause there is nothing being sold, therefore nothing to make, then no money to buy anything, then less sold, less to make, and so on and so forth. Unfortunately this isn't something you flick off or on, it's more of a freight train (not implying you didn't know this, just simply that it is), it simply takes time and patience moving in the CORRECT direction. It's my opinion this country is being led the wrong way.

By the way, not just by Obama, but for many years by many different presidents.

[Boringanarchy2]

We could do that, or we could have some equitable wealth distribution and labour unions worth a ****

Equitable wealth distribution (in moderation) I agree with (which we already have). Now labor unions, I'm weary of, ONLY because as employee wages go up than so do product prices. EVERYONE in the country can't make $15 an hour and up, all that is going to do is drive prices through the roof fast, making American made products (even more) impossible to sell overseas as they will simply be too expensive, then people get laid off cause there is nothing being sold, therefore nothing to make, then no money to buy anything, then less sold, less to make, and so on and so forth. Unfortunately this isn't something you flick off or on, it's more of a freight train (not implying you didn't know this, just simply that it is), it simply takes time and patience moving in the CORRECT direction. It's my opinion this country is being led the wrong way.

By the way, not just by Obama, but for many years by many different presidents.
[/quote]
We do not have moderate wealth distribution. The wealth is firmly placed in the top ten percent. The cost raising minimum wage is overstated (for example raising the price on all Walmart products by less than 2% would raise enough capital to pay the 15 dollar minimum wage).

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

America should be putting more into education, make the completion of high school mandatory (or a technical school) and provide more youth job programs. They would make our citizens more employable (because they would know more and have more experience) and would teach work ethic. Before anyone starts arguing about the effectiveness of youth work programs, trust me, I know they work I have taken place in them the last two years. They give non-for-profits free employees, supply young workers with a paycheck and work experience and in many cases (like me!) the workers who go to these programs get hired by the businesses or non-for-profits they were placed at.

And hopefully this will clear up the whole "welfare recipients are lazy" dispute. I hope we all know that there are many people who receive welfare and unemployment and need it to sustain themselves and their families. That being said there are multiple people (and I know a few) who scam the system, trying to collect the most they can, as long as they can because they would rather sit around. Its true, you can't deny it. But is that a reason to take food out of the mouths of those who need it? No, it isn't. This is a complex problem and it requires a complex and elegant answer that would be able to force those who are being lazy to participate in society and those who are trying their best to supply for their family, the help they need.

[Wingnut]

America should be putting more into education, make the completion of high school mandatory (or a technical school) and provide more youth job programs. They would make our citizens more employable (because they would know more and have more experience) and would teach work ethic. Before anyone starts arguing about the effectiveness of youth work programs, trust me, I know they work I have taken place in them the last two years. They give non-for-profits free employees, supply young workers with a paycheck and work experience and in many cases (like me!) the workers who go to these programs get hired by the businesses or non-for-profits they were placed at.

And hopefully this will clear up the whole "welfare recipients are lazy" dispute. I hope we all know that there are many people who receive welfare and unemployment and need it to sustain themselves and their families. That being said there are multiple people (and I know a few) who scam the system, trying to collect the most they can, as long as they can because they would rather sit around. Its true, you can't deny it. But is that a reason to take food out of the mouths of those who need it? No, it isn't. This is a complex problem and it requires a complex and elegant answer that would be able to force those who are being lazy to participate in society and those who are trying their best to supply for their family, the help they need.

.

Well put, I have made statements that are blanket statements and it was incorrect of me. I 100% know not everyone is abusing the system, I know there are tons of people working 2-3 jobs and just need help. But I personally know 5 families that I can think of, that won't work because they are better off, they can literally sit home, do drugs and get food stamps, cash benefits, free phones and have their rent paid. All things I work 50-60 hours a week to obtain on my own, mind you, I did not come from a wealthy family, not poor, but def not wealthy (and yes, on welfare at times and purchased MANY outfits at the Salvation Army), but I wanted better for my life and my children, so I worked at it and went to work EVERY day wether I wanted or not. I'm still by no means wealthy, but I have better than growing up (this magic addiction isn't helping though).

[Dudecore]

Government welfare and drug addiction is a huge problem in the southern states. The poorest state in the union - Mississippi takes the most money in welfare, also has the highest drug addiction rates, crime rates, lowest education, more illiterate, lowest life expectancy, highest birth rate (and highest infant mortality) and highest unemployment (among other things). They're also the ones that vote republican and want to get rid of welfare.

I'm not saying anyone here is doing it, but most of the time when people want to get rid of welfare - they mean black people. They see blacks as the primary recipients of welfare. Which is untrue. So a bit of compartmentalized thinking going on.

The most poverty stricken areas of this world are also the most dangerous, people will do what they must to survive. Welfare could use an overhaul - but it's elimination directly effects those who need it most. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a solution.

Our taxes are already too high anyway. No reason to raise it. I get taxed nearly 40% of my income, I cannot give any more. I'll be working for strictly benefits soon enough. What more then 40% of my income is enough? Stop the drug war, stop corporate subsidies, stop the militarization of the police force.

[Boringanarchy2]

Government welfare and drug addiction is a huge problem in the southern states. The poorest state in the union - Mississippi takes the most money in welfare, also has the highest drug addiction rates, crime rates, lowest education, more illiterate, lowest life expectancy, highest birth rate (and highest infant mortality) and highest unemployment (among other things). They're also the ones that vote republican and want to get rid of welfare.

I'm not saying anyone here is doing it, but most of the time when people want to get rid of welfare - they mean black people. They see blacks as the primary recipients of welfare. Which is untrue. So a bit of compartmentalized thinking going on.

The most poverty stricken areas of this world are also the most dangerous, people will do what they must to survive. Welfare could use an overhaul - but it's elimination directly effects those who need it most. Throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a solution.

Our taxes are already too high anyway. No reason to raise it. I get taxed nearly 40% of my income, I cannot give any more. I'll be working for strictly benefits soon enough. What more then 40% of my income is enough? Stop the drug war, stop corporate subsidies, stop the militarization of the police force.

We can have higher taxes on those who can pay more. We could also get rid of sales tax.

[Piotr]

Now to the reason welfare programs are so broken. Welfare programs started in the mid 1900's and were going fine...until the Vietnam conflict broke out. After John F. Kennedy died, the new president Lyndon B. Johnson instead of pulling out, decided to go in full force, diverting money away from social welfare programs and because the programs never really got full funding, they never did their full job.

Welfare programs are broken by design. They assume people are not greedy, which is not true. If people were not greedy and just take from the welfare programs what they need, as in theory, all would be fine. The problem is, people are greedy and when they see opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of others, they will do so. The other problem is, welfare programs are designed to help people who are needy. It is not possible to verify whether their needs are true or whether they come from greed and laziness. That is why all welfare programs and all forms of socialism and communism fail in the long run. They never go fine.

On top of that we have a little bit of a moral problem here. To pay for welfare programs you have to extort money from someone first. The goal is to help the needy people, which is noble and glorious, but the means to reach this goal is extortion of money at gunpoint. This is a nono under iMtG law, and any compatible ethics.

Now I don't always agree with Piotr (although always respect this is his forum so he deserves respect), but I feel you sir are spot on in your post's. although unemployment benefits are in theory good, people abuse it. When you have a safety net you are not afraid to fall, in this case you are not afraid of loosing your job. Therefore the people that don't work hard have no incentive TOO work hard. This inflates unemployment, taking money out of the pockets of people who may have paid a person with that money. Now I'm not bashing anyone "in a bind" closing the knot with welfare, but let be realistic, a lot of people don't want to do poo and let everyone else take care of them. Like the McDonald's workers on strike because they want $14 an hour, do what the rest of us did, obtain a skill set worth a good wage and then get paid. Sorry, I'm done.

I can't believe I just read this in the twenty-first century. You sound like Trevelyan or a British liberal...

Let's cut to the chase shall we. There is a number that I like to trot out whenever people like to start talking about the evils of welfare. 91 percent. What's that you say? That would be the percentage of households who receive government support who are elderly, disabled, or working. 84 percent of households living below the poverty line have a working member. So this idea that all the poor are lazy or just soaking up benefits is ludicrous, a fairy tale the rich like to tell themselves in order to not feel bad as they drive by hobos.

As for the charity argument, that's a load of hogwash. Just look at liberal England with the potatoe famine or the artificial famines of India to know that the cognitive dissonance of the rich keep them for knowing the cycle of poverty. This goes hand on hand with the point above, the rich like to think they got where they are because they're worked harder than the poor people. Yet the people who didn't have the advantages they had wont get as much out of the same hard work. As a result, the poor are kept poor, the rich stay rich and without social safety nets the poor will never have any class mobility. The minimum wage should go up and we need to get out of our bubble worlds and stop thinking "oh the poor love being poor." Yes, sweating over whether your next paycheck will keep your family clothes and fed is a decision every person cherishes.

On a side note, I hate this notion of welfare as "stealing." Yes, you're successful through hardwork, but somewhere along the line you or your family received benefits or privelege and behind every success story you better believe there is a lot of luck. Welfare isn't stealing, it's helping those who lost the genetic and birth lottery and didn't have the good fortune to cash in on a right place right time idea

You sound like a moron who cannot understand that potato famine existed 200 years ago and the likes of it now only exists in North Korea, a socialist country? Do you even know what green revolution was and when it happened? Do you define powerty as 'not having the latest video console connected to a plasma screen'? Do you understand that no amount of luck I'm having gives you right to forcefully extort wealth from me? Do you understand that if you have no right to extort money from me yet you do, it is stealing? Do you understand that putting words in other people mouths is grounds to be banned from this place? Can you point out who and when said that all poor people are lazy? Do you understand that you are not allowed to lie on this forum, especially not in this board?

Where is your 91 number coming from?

[Piotr]

America should be putting more into education, make the completion of high school mandatory (or a technical school) and provide more youth job programs. They would make our citizens more employable (because they would know more and have more experience) and would teach work ethic. Before anyone starts arguing about the effectiveness of youth work programs, trust me, I know they work I have taken place in them the last two years. They give non-for-profits free employees, supply young workers with a paycheck and work experience and in many cases (like me!) the workers who go to these programs get hired by the businesses or non-for-profits they were placed at.

And hopefully this will clear up the whole "welfare recipients are lazy" dispute. I hope we all know that there are many people who receive welfare and unemployment and need it to sustain themselves and their families. That being said there are multiple people (and I know a few) who scam the system, trying to collect the most they can, as long as they can because they would rather sit around. Its true, you can't deny it. But is that a reason to take food out of the mouths of those who need it? No, it isn't. This is a complex problem and it requires a complex and elegant answer that would be able to force those who are being lazy to participate in society and those who are trying their best to supply for their family, the help they need.

You are missing the point and ignoring the history.

We have had countries which implemented all the ideas you are proposing, and inevitably in all cases in the long run these countries were destroyed by socialism. I was born in one of these countries and seen it, you prefer to shut your eyes and brain and ignore history.

Is the fact that some people need wealth created by me the reason to extort it from me and give it to them? No, it isn't. Goal does not justify the means.

[Boringanarchy2]

Now to the reason welfare programs are so broken. Welfare programs started in the mid 1900's and were going fine...until the Vietnam conflict broke out. After John F. Kennedy died, the new president Lyndon B. Johnson instead of pulling out, decided to go in full force, diverting money away from social welfare programs and because the programs never really got full funding, they never did their full job.

Welfare programs are broken by design. They assume people are not greedy, which is not true. If people were not greedy and just take from the welfare programs what they need, as in theory, all would be fine. The problem is, people are greedy and when they see opportunity to enrich themselves at the expense of others, they will do so. The other problem is, welfare programs are designed to help people who are needy. It is not possible to verify whether their needs are true or whether they come from greed and laziness. That is why all welfare programs and all forms of socialism and communism fail in the long run. They never go fine.

On top of that we have a little bit of a moral problem here. To pay for welfare programs you have to extort money from someone first. The goal is to help the needy people, which is noble and glorious, but the means to reach this goal is extortion of money at gunpoint. This is a nono under iMtG law, and any compatible ethics.

Now I don't always agree with Piotr (although always respect this is his forum so he deserves respect), but I feel you sir are spot on in your post's. although unemployment benefits are in theory good, people abuse it. When you have a safety net you are not afraid to fall, in this case you are not afraid of loosing your job. Therefore the people that don't work hard have no incentive TOO work hard. This inflates unemployment, taking money out of the pockets of people who may have paid a person with that money. Now I'm not bashing anyone "in a bind" closing the knot with welfare, but let be realistic, a lot of people don't want to do poo and let everyone else take care of them. Like the McDonald's workers on strike because they want $14 an hour, do what the rest of us did, obtain a skill set worth a good wage and then get paid. Sorry, I'm done.

I can't believe I just read this in the twenty-first century. You sound like Trevelyan or a British liberal...

Let's cut to the chase shall we. There is a number that I like to trot out whenever people like to start talking about the evils of welfare. 91 percent. What's that you say? That would be the percentage of households who receive government support who are elderly, disabled, or working. 84 percent of households living below the poverty line have a working member. So this idea that all the poor are lazy or just soaking up benefits is ludicrous, a fairy tale the rich like to tell themselves in order to not feel bad as they drive by hobos.

As for the charity argument, that's a load of hogwash. Just look at liberal England with the potatoe famine or the artificial famines of India to know that the cognitive dissonance of the rich keep them for knowing the cycle of poverty. This goes hand on hand with the point above, the rich like to think they got where they are because they're worked harder than the poor people. Yet the people who didn't have the advantages they had wont get as much out of the same hard work. As a result, the poor are kept poor, the rich stay rich and without social safety nets the poor will never have any class mobility. The minimum wage should go up and we need to get out of our bubble worlds and stop thinking "oh the poor love being poor." Yes, sweating over whether your next paycheck will keep your family clothes and fed is a decision every person cherishes.

On a side note, I hate this notion of welfare as "stealing." Yes, you're successful through hardwork, but somewhere along the line you or your family received benefits or privelege and behind every success story you better believe there is a lot of luck. Welfare isn't stealing, it's helping those who lost the genetic and birth lottery and didn't have the good fortune to cash in on a right place right time idea

You sound like a moron who cannot understand that potato famine existed 200 years ago and the likes of it now only exists in North Korea, a socialist country? Do you even know what green revolution was and when it happened? Do you define powerty as 'not having the latest video console connected to a plasma screen'? Do you understand that no amount of luck I'm having gives you right to forcefully extort wealth from me? Do you understand that if you have no right to extort money from me yet you do, it is stealing? Do you understand that putting words in other people mouths is grounds to be banned from this place? Can you point out who and when said that all poor people are lazy? Do you understand that you are not allowed to lie on this forum, especially not in this board?

Where is your 91 number coming from?

The 91 percent is based on 2010 us census data. The potatoe famine and other artificial famines were the result of policy, my point being that anyone with that horrid mindset can cause the same problems. Also, NK is to socialism as creationism is to science. Both are bastardized versions of the things they claim to be with very little actual common ground.

I define poverty as the U census does: families of four makin less than 23,000 a year and individuals makin 11,500 or less. As for the accusations of lying...well, considering the word lazy showed up it's not exactly lying. Perhaps lay off the leading questions? And lastly, you get your money from society, its value is determined by society, and you keep it at the behest of society. Taxation is not extortion, it is asking you to contribute to the society that made your wealth possible. Said society needs crap done, and complaining about the rich being taxed is like a tall person complaining about the short person asking him to reach a high shelf. The rich have the most to give and have benefitted the most from society, it's only reasonable to ask the them to give back,

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

I define poverty as the U census does: families of four makin less than 23,000 a year and individuals makin 11,500 or less. As for the accusations of lying...well, considering the word lazy showed up it's not exactly lying. Perhaps lay off the leading questions? And lastly, you get your money from society, its value is determined by society, and you keep it at the behest of society. Taxation is not extortion, it is asking you to contribute to the society that made your wealth possible. Said society needs crap done, and complaining about the rich being taxed is like a tall person complaining about the short person asking him to reach a high shelf. The rich have the most to give and have benefitted the most from society, it's only reasonable to ask the them to give back,

Well said

[ibtrickey]

Personally I think we are at a loss for jobs.
Due to large companies putting small businesses out of business. Also when companies will only hire part time!! Along with people coming from high school and only adding to the job market. Each year will become more competative.. And it sucks!

[Piotr]

There is no society, there are only individuals. Wealth are not created by society, but by individuals, solitary and organised. The right way to distribute wealth is by voluntary trade, not by forceful extortion. Do not steal. In socialism one group of individuals exploit the other group forcefully, under false pretences. This is stealing. Mandatory insurance proposed by socialists is illegal under iMtG law, as a kind of stealing.

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

There is no society, there are only individuals. Wealth are not created by society, but by individuals, solitary and organised. The right way to distribute wealth is by voluntary trade, not by forceful extortion. Do not steal. In socialism one group of individuals exploit the other group forcefully, under false pretences. This is stealing. Mandatory insurance proposed by socialists is illegal under iMtG law, as a kind of stealing.

Well again, we are talking about real laws like the U.S. Constitution. And requiring individuals to contribute to services that help the society is not stealing, exploiting or extortion.

[Piotr]

There is no society, there are only individuals. Wealth are not created by society, but by individuals, solitary and organised. The right way to distribute wealth is by voluntary trade, not by forceful extortion. Do not steal. In socialism one group of individuals exploit the other group forcefully, under false pretences. This is stealing. Mandatory insurance proposed by socialists is illegal under iMtG law, as a kind of stealing.

Well again, we are talking about real laws like the U.S. Constitution. And requiring individuals to contribute to services that help the society is not stealing, exploiting or extortion.

Forcing individuals to give up their wealth for services they don't want nor need is sealing, exploiting and extortion under any kind of honest logic. Unfortunately you do not seem to follow honest logic.

Socialism enforced on federal level is illegal under U.S. Constitution too. Government don't give a flying .love. anyway, they are crooks after all. There are only two kinds of socialists: naive and crooks. You seem to be of the naive kind, that's why we're still talking.

In any case I live my life by iMtG law so it is important for me to know what and what not is illegal for me. After all, if the government doesn't give a damn about their own laws, why would I? I simply do not harm others and use self defense when others try to harm me.