New pope

[Bookmeister]

I am unaware of the experiment of which you speak and I do not believe life came from non-life but that is not at issue here. I said the is no observable or repeatable instance of something coming from nothing. If we can agree non-life substances came before life substances then I am speaking of non-life substances have never appeared from nothing.

That is a loaded proposition that you're using. By those narrow parameters nothing can exist, and yet here we are. Again, while none of that proves gods existence and only attempts to throw pie in the face of science because it cannot prove what cannot be proven - It cannot answer the ultimate question.

God doesn't answer the question either. Unfortunately he couldn't have come from nothing, and whoever made him couldn't have come from nothing either. Perhaps there is no answer. I don't know.

It is not a loaded question and I am a huge fan if science. Christianity does answer the question. Something(everything) comes from something. There is an uncaused first cause. Christianity names this cause as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We can't get there on our own reasoning so God chose to reveal Himself through His Son and His Word.

[Kareason]

I am unaware of the experiment of which you speak and I do not believe life came from non-life but that is not at issue here. I said the is no observable or repeatable instance of something coming from nothing. If we can agree non-life substances came before life substances then I am speaking of non-life substances have never appeared from nothing.

That is a loaded proposition that you're using. By those narrow parameters nothing can exist, and yet here we are. Again, while none of that proves gods existence and only attempts to throw pie in the face of science because it cannot prove what cannot be proven - It cannot answer the ultimate question.

God doesn't answer the question either. Unfortunately he couldn't have come from nothing, and whoever made him couldn't have come from nothing either. Perhaps there is no answer. I don't know.

It is not a loaded question and I am a huge fan if science. Christianity does answer the question. Something(everything) comes from something. There is an uncaused first cause. Christianity names this cause as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We can't get there on our own reasoning so God chose to reveal Himself through His Son and His Word.

I know this is hypothetical but I'm going to ask it anyways. If the "first cause" were to be factually determined, what then happens to the concept that God is the first cause and the faith in that idea?  I respect the individual need for faith but we have to admit that it is impossible to "prove" God so the addition/introduction of him into the equation only serves to muddy the waters.

[Keyeto]

So now my understanding of god has come to this. He gave us the choice to believe in him, and that was a blessing, and if we ignore that blessing (don't believe in him) we go to Hell. This sounds really forced.

"Hey guys, I exist, but I'm never going to show myself. Believe me, or go to Hell."

I'm not sure I like the "Believe in me or rot for eternity" aspect of all of this. That doesn't sound like a god I would want to follow. And how is the option to believe in him a blessing? We are given options to believe things everyday. Here's an example:

Everyone on iMtG: I play guitar. If you don't believe me, I'm going to cast you out of my mind, and disregard you completely. You can believe me, and we will be friends. Or, you can not believe me, and I'll want nothing to do with you. Also, if you murder someone for no reason, that's cool. As long as you believe I am a guitar player. But if you don't believe I'm a guitar player, I don't care how good of a person you are, it's not acceptable, I'll not befriend you.

That, to me, seems to be his logic. Perhaps I'm being a bit reductio ad absurdum here, but hey, being hyperbolic helps prove points, does it not?

[Dudecore]

I am unaware of the experiment of which you speak and I do not believe life came from non-life but that is not at issue here. I said the is no observable or repeatable instance of something coming from nothing. If we can agree non-life substances came before life substances then I am speaking of non-life substances have never appeared from nothing.

That is a loaded proposition that you're using. By those narrow parameters nothing can exist, and yet here we are. Again, while none of that proves gods existence and only attempts to throw pie in the face of science because it cannot prove what cannot be proven - It cannot answer the ultimate question.

God doesn't answer the question either. Unfortunately he couldn't have come from nothing, and whoever made him couldn't have come from nothing either. Perhaps there is no answer. I don't know.

It is not a loaded question and I am a huge fan if science. Christianity does answer the question. Something(everything) comes from something. There is an uncaused first cause. Christianity names this cause as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We can't get there on our own reasoning so God chose to reveal Himself through His Son and His Word.

God does not answer any question, as you've described yourself a fan of science - how is "god did it" an answer at all? As I've stated numerous times, it only begs the question of who put him there?

What if life is a simulation on an alien computer program? What if it is 2 gods fighting? It begs the question that any god capable of designing such a complex world - he must be complex himself. Anything that would be that complex would likely have reached such a level through evolution. Any self respecting, intellectually honest person would readily admit they do not know the origins of the universe - no one can.

Anyone who views the natural world sees overwhelming complexity but not optimal design. Plenty of redundancy and effectively useless designs. Flightless birds, sightless fish, millions of species of beetles. Billions of viruses - both benign and ravaging - develop constantly and for every species. It seems kinda silly that they're also all the product of intelligent design.

[NyghtHawk]

I know this is hypothetical but I'm going to ask it anyways. If the "first cause" were to be factually determined, what then happens to the concept that God is the first cause and the faith in that idea?  I respect the individual need for faith but we have to admit that it is impossible to "prove" God so the addition/introduction of him into the equation only serves to muddy the waters.

Or to Christians, make it clearer.

In the end, it comes down to faith. You believe or you don't, the choice is yours. All I can tell you is how I feel, what I've seen, and why I believe the way I do.

[NyghtHawk]

So now my understanding of god has come to this. He gave us the choice to believe in him, and that was a blessing, and if we ignore that blessing (don't believe in him) we go to Hell. This sounds really forced.

"Hey guys, I exist, but I'm never going to show myself. Believe me, or go to Hell."

I'm not sure I like the "Believe in me or rot for eternity" aspect of all of this. That doesn't sound like a god I would want to follow. And how is the option to believe in him a blessing? We are given options to believe things everyday. Here's an example:

Everyone on iMtG: I play guitar. If you don't believe me, I'm going to cast you out of my mind, and disregard you completely. You can believe me, and we will be friends. Or, you can not believe me, and I'll want nothing to do with you. Also, if you murder someone for no reason, that's cool. As long as you believe I am a guitar player. But if you don't believe I'm a guitar player, I don't care how good of a person you are, it's not acceptable, I'll not befriend you.

That, to me, seems to be his logic. Perhaps I'm being a bit reductio ad absurdum here, but hey, being hyperbolic helps prove points, does it not?

Think of it this way if you like comparing things is such ways.

You are told not to eat fatty/bad foods because they are bad for you. If you do you can shorten your lifespan by having a heart attack and dieing from eating unhealthy. You still have the choice to eat that way if you want, but you know the risk. The God of the Bible is no different. You are told the consequence of living a life without God, but if you choose that anyway, its still your choice. Not a forced one. You chose it.

[Hays413]

Keyeto doesn't play the guitar!!
He's lying to all of us!

[Keyeto]

Keyeto doesn't play the guitar!!
He's lying to all of us!

Well, I know someone who's on the short list to enemy.

I kid of course

And as for choices, there's hardly much if a choice when it comes to eternal damnation. I mean, that's nothing more than a scare tactic. "Believe in me, or be forever tormented in the afterlife". Yes you have a choice, but I don't think a caring god, who loves all his children, needs to terrify people into belief. I have asked several Christians why they believe in God, the most common answer, "To go to Heaven/To avoid Hell". If your god is truly a role model, why use scare tactics? It shouldn't be necessary. We should want to follow him, not follow him to avoid an eternity of torment.

[Piotr]

Keyeto doesn't play the guitar!!
He's lying to all of us!

Pretty bold claim, can you prove it?

[Hays413]

So now my understanding of god has come to this. He gave us the choice to believe in him, and that was a blessing, and if we ignore that blessing (don't believe in him) we go to Hell. This sounds really forced.

"Hey guys, I exist, but I'm never going to show myself. Believe me, or go to Hell."

I'm not sure I like the "Believe in me or rot for eternity" aspect of all of this. That doesn't sound like a god I would want to follow. And how is the option to believe in him a blessing? We are given options to believe things everyday. Here's an example:

Everyone on iMtG: I play guitar. If you don't believe me, I'm going to cast you out of my mind, and disregard you completely. You can believe me, and we will be friends. Or, you can not believe me, and I'll want nothing to do with you. Also, if you murder someone for no reason, that's cool. As long as you believe I am a guitar player. But if you don't believe I'm a guitar player, I don't care how good of a person you are, it's not acceptable, I'll not befriend you.

That, to me, seems to be his logic. Perhaps I'm being a bit reductio ad absurdum here, but hey, being hyperbolic helps prove points, does it not?

Think of it this way if you like comparing things is such ways.

You are told not to eat fatty/bad foods because they are bad for you. If you do you can shorten your lifespan by having a heart attack and dieing from eating unhealthy. You still have the choice to eat that way if you want, but you know the risk. The God of the Bible is no different. You are told the consequence of living a life without God, but if you choose that anyway, its still your choice. Not a forced one. You chose it.

Umm this arguement is invalid given that fatty foods are scientifically -ahem- "magically" proven time and time again to lead to high cholesterol, clogging of arteries leading to heart attacks and other adverse health issues. Beyond a doubt, proven. "God" is guilty of being a logical falacy until proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt to exist.
I truly hope the day comes where this "all mighty lord" is exposed from beyond the curtain. Because he/she has a .poo. load of questions to answer for. And needs to be held accountable for the countless upon countless indiscretions that are all a part of the "plan".

[Hays413]

Keyeto doesn't play the guitar!!
He's lying to all of us!

Pretty bold claim, can you prove it?

NO I CAN'T!
But I also can't disprove it either!
So either way I'm right!
Bahaha, oh and the earth isn't 13.7 billion years old! It's only 6000!!
And man walked with the dinosaurs!

[SixShotVixXen]

Lets hope none makes a .politics. thread
👀

[Piotr]

"Believe in me, or be forever tormented in the afterlife".

This is not really what Christianity teaches. It teaches that when you die, you simply die and this is true for all of us. Now, when you believe in God according To Jesus' teachings, at the end of times you will be granted resurrection and eternal life.

[Piotr]

Lets hope none makes a .politics. thread
👀

We survived a few of those as well. This one is 3rd or 4th religion thread that I remember.

[Keyeto]

"Believe in me, or be forever tormented in the afterlife".

This is not really what Christianity teaches. It teaches that when you die, you simply die and this is true for all of us. Now, when you believe in God according To Jesus' teachings, at the end of times you will be granted resurrection and eternal life.

Then what is the punishment for not believing? Is it not Hell, a place of torment? It was my understanding that if you believe, you go to Heaven. A place of paradise and wonder. If you don't, you go to Hell. A place of torture and horror. To me, that translates as "Believe in me, or face punishment."