Oblivion Ring, Bounce, The Stack

[AbishotRed]

So my friend played {Oblivion Ring} on my permanent, but bounced it back into his hand. He then said that he'll activate the second effect first before bouncing it back, and effectively exile my permanent forever. Is this legal?

[AbishotRed]

I think I might have posted this in the wrong part of the forum, sorry :x

[Birdbrain]

I don't really see how it is. It clearly states, when it leaves play, the permanent returns. End of story. It was bounced, it left the field, your permanent should return. No ifs, ands, or buts about it

[Keyeto]

There is a way they could go about this. as the rulings on Gatherer state: If Oblivion Ring leaves the battlefield before its first ability has resolved, its second ability will trigger and do nothing. Then its first ability will resolve and exile the targeted nonland permanent forever. If this is what they did, then it would work.

[Birdbrain]

Apparently, I'm wrong.

[MisterJH]

Ya, it works.. Its a stupid rule and realy makes little sense and should be changed, but for now it works.

[MisterJH]

However i dont understand how this works, as you only get to choose the stack when things resolve together. So hed play o-ring, which does nothing until it resolves. O-ring resolves, so he may now bounce it. He bounces o-ring, it leaves the battlefield you get your thing back. Thats the way ive been explained things and how the rules would actually make sense.

Actually in response to my previous comment, i dont think this will work with oblivion ring. Of course i also dont understand the other combo with cloudshift, but whatever

[Keyeto]

However i dont understand how this works, as you only get to choose the stack when things resolve together. So hed play o-ring, which does nothing until it resolves. O-ring resolves, so he may now bounce it. He bounces o-ring, it leaves the battlefield you get your thing back. Thats the way ive been explained things and how the rules would actually make sense.

Actually in response to my previous comment, i dont think this will work with oblivion ring. Of course i also dont understand the other combo with cloudshift, but whatever

Here's how the process goes:
1) Cast O-Ring, target your permanent
2) O-rings ability goes on the stack
3) Bounce O-Ring; second ability goes on the stack.
4) Last thing resolves first; second ability tries to go off, no exiled permanent to return.
5) First ability goes off, exiles permanent.
6) Permanent is exiled and O-ring is in the hand.

[MisterJH]

Ok but heres the issue. O-ring's ability is when it ETB, NOT when it is cast. O-ring's very existence is placed on the stack. Until it resolves however, o-ring is simply a card on the stack, not a permanent. You cannot bounce it until it resolves. To bounce it, and trigger this particular event, you would have to bounce o-ring FROM the stack, which is impossible. There is no way to justify this working, you cant bounce o-ring until after you let it resolve -.- bounces dont work on things on the stack.

[MisterJH]

It just doesnt add up

[MisterJH]

Haha i readthe pancakes one and it did help, but what im not understanding is how the first trigger happens if o-ring never enters the battlefield. Until it resolves, it never enters the battlefield i thought. So until it officially resolves and leaves the stack, its not a viable target to bounce. Thats my understanding of the stack, that objects on the stack are just that, objects. They are not permanents, they are not enchantments, creatures, equipments etc... They are jst cards on the stack, and you cant bounce permanents that arent in play. This is the conflict in my sad sad mind right now.

[Keyeto]

But O-ring does enter the battlefield, you just have to bounce it back to your hand after it hits the battlefield, but before the initial exiling trigger resolves.

[MisterJH]

Ah... I see the light. Well thats gay -.-

[Kaleo42]

When do you say what youre targeting with an o-ring? AFTER IT RESOLVES. You cant choose targets for an ETB before you ETB, it'd be like making a wurm token before {armada wurm} resolves or using a counterspell from your graveyard to protect your {snapcaster mage} while he is still on the stack, or searching your deck for land before your {borderland ranger} resolves, etc.

O-ring is a perminent not and Instant or sorcery or even Aura (which is a perminent). Instants, sorceries, and Auras are the only cards that need a target when you cast it (ingnore wrath effects for this statement). Since o-ring is not one of those three it does not target anything while on the stack. It does however put an ability on the stack AFTER it enters the battlefield at which point it is a viable target for anything.

[Birdbrain]

Actually. On the stack is not in play, so you can't do this. Why doesn't someone e-mail Mark Rosewater about it to settle it once and for all. He is the head designer at wizards, and should know all the rules on {oblivion ring}