If a mans death is ruled as a homicide
And it is caught on video from a clear angle.
Shouldn't that be enough evidence to go to trial?
Yes, why do you ask?
I believe he is referencing the incident in New York.
The NYPD banned choke holds because they kill people. The cop certainly should receive some form of punishment, but if a heart attack is what killed the man I guess he shouldn't go to trial for murder on that technicality.
The fact that in nycpd it's illegal to choke hold someone. They literally can't legally do that as cops. So a manslaughter charge is needed here.
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 12:34:42 PM
He was resisting arrest in the first place though.
I'd say take him to court about the choke-hold, but not for manslaughter because that wasn't his intent.
Blame the victim
The taysby way to react to things
A heart attack induced by stress and panic due to being in a chokehold and lack of breath.
Which was still ruled as a homicide by the coroner.
Reports state he had a heart attack on the way to hospital, but the video shows he was dead at the scene
Just to be clear - the New York Medical Examiner ruled that the cause of death was homocide, through compression of the chest and neck, with various health problems also contributing. Regardless of whether it was a heart attack caused by this and health problems, one thing is still undeniably true: Officer Daniel Pantaleo, through the use of a chokehold that had been outlawed, caused the death of Eric Garner. Regardless of if it was intentional, he killed a man, in broad daylight, on camera. Yet the only one involved to be indicted to go to trial was Ramsey Orta, a friend of Garner's and the one that filmed the video, and that was on a totally seperate charge.
Racially-motivated Police Brutality is a thing, guys. It's stupid to think it isn't real.
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 12:34:42 PM
He was resisting arrest in the first place though.
I'd say take him to court about the choke-hold, but not for manslaughter because that wasn't his intent.
Resisting arrest for what? He wasn't Michael Brown, the man hadn't just committed a robbery. He was choked to death for selling loose cigarettes for a few cents, maybe a couple dollars of profit, ffs. How is that even a crime in a free market nation?
Let's say for a minute that this doesn't qualify for involuntary manslaughter. What would you call it? It's not an accidental death. People don't get put in illegal choke-holds accidentally. It's not murder, let's be honest, there was no malice aforethought. So what is it?
He actually had broken up a fight
So being an upstanding citizen helping your community will get you killed
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 02:36:01 PM
He was selling cigarettes illegally, the police tried to detain him and he refused, so they had to act. The officer used an illegal technique so he should get punished for that. He wasn't trying to kill him so it shouldn't be murder. Most I could see is involuntary manslaughter.
Typical muggy. Being completely blind to one side of the story and hard evidence.
Watch the video then come back
You're arguing for the sake of arguing, rather than bringing logic to the table.
You blame the victim for his death.
Just reflect on those statements rather than trying to justify the police actions to simply go against the grain
Tays shut the hell up, your a little kid that likes to take the opposite side to cause strife, nothing more. Watch the video, he didn't resist untill they threw him to the ground and choked him. ANY citizen would react the same way. Cops are over stepping their bounds, and it needs to be fixed now.
https://db.tt/MyxFYtP1
These are the guys last words. Sounds like this officer took time out his day other times to see if he could get a rise out of the guy to justify whatever he was trying to do to him. When he still couldnt, he went ahead and choked him to death anyways. he knew he had a blanket of protection over him.
Lol @ "uneducated liberals." I'm an independent who despises the two-party system, thanks. I've also gone through quite a bit of education in my life. and, I have worked with police (good officers, not these dirt bags we're discussing). Don't insult me, don't pretend to know my experience or what I think and feel, and don't for a second pretend you know more than everyone else. You want to disagree, that's fine, but get off the pillar you're propping yourself on.
BTW "choking him to the point where it irrefutablly caused the man's death according to the coroner, autopsy, and evidence " = "choked him to death." if I stab you in the toe and you bleed to death because you have hemophilia, I stabbed you to death. It's just what it means.
Liberal is the farthest thing from my stance. Nyc made it ILLEGAL for their polic to use choke holds, that right there is what's the issue. Not race, police using excessive force all over the damn country is the issue. Also don't assume people's ideologies because you still are finding yours kid, some of us are much older and even younger ones are wiser than you tays. I get it your 18 and know how everything works, but sadly you don't. Wait till your out of your twenties and your political views will change.
Quote from: Infektor on December 04, 2014, 05:43:53 PM
Liberal is the farthest thing from my stance. Nyc made it ILLEGAL for their polic to use choke holds, that right there is what's the issue. Not race, police using excessive force all over the damn country is the issue. Also don't assume people's ideologies because you still are finding yours kid, some of us are much older and even younger ones are wiser than you tays. I get it your 18 and know how everything works, but sadly you don't. Wait till your out of your twenties and your political views will change.
I haven't seen the video, but was the guy fighting back, or did he just sit there and the cop kept choking him.
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 12:34:42 PM
I'd say take him to court about the choke-hold, but not for manslaughter because that wasn't his intent.
Manslaughter: "the crime of killing a human being without malice aforethought"
So what you are saying is we shouldn't charge him with manslaughter, even though it is manslaughter, because he didn't murder him?
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on December 04, 2014, 06:41:35 PM
Quote from: Infektor on December 04, 2014, 05:43:53 PM
Liberal is the farthest thing from my stance. Nyc made it ILLEGAL for their polic to use choke holds, that right there is what's the issue. Not race, police using excessive force all over the damn country is the issue. Also don't assume people's ideologies because you still are finding yours kid, some of us are much older and even younger ones are wiser than you tays. I get it your 18 and know how everything works, but sadly you don't. Wait till your out of your twenties and your political views will change.
I haven't seen the video, but was the guy fighting back, or did he just sit there and the cop kept choking him.
He didn't start "resisting", if you call it that, till they started grabbing him and throwing him around for not "complying " with questions. It's bs.
Anytime anyone throws "uneducated liberal" or similar name-calling into their argument about anything completely invalidates any and all points they may have made.
Arguments can be made without mudslinging and generalizing anyone who disagrees with you.
Quote from: Cender on December 04, 2014, 07:44:29 PM
Arguments can be made without mudslinging and generalizing anyone who disagrees with you.
So true. Keep rational dialogue. You guys may not agree but keeping the conversation going might help others understand.
If you watch the video he has his hands up saying, "don't touch me, I didn't do anything"
The officer in question reaches behind Garner and throws him in an illegal choke hold as the other officers swam and attempt to cuff garner.
Someone ended up dead over supposed illegal sales of cigarettes. There's something wrong there and law enforcement should be accountable for misconduct, not all cops are bad, but bad cops are awful and a parasite on our society. This is not a left or right issue, sadly some people are raised to believe it is some sort of contest rather than understand the state humanity is in
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 09:13:25 PM
Quote from: GlowackAttack on December 04, 2014, 07:21:38 PM
Totally not a race issue whatsoever. That's the thing... it always gets turned into one the first chance it can ever get
All I've been hearing on the news is "White cop shoots unarmed black man" "America has racist cops" etc.
When black teens are 21x more likely to be killed by an officer than whites, its fair to say that race is a factor. Racial stereotyping is what compels these officers to react to the situation the way they do, whether it be conscious or subconscious.
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 09:27:07 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 04, 2014, 09:24:23 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 09:13:25 PM
Quote from: GlowackAttack on December 04, 2014, 07:21:38 PM
Totally not a race issue whatsoever. That's the thing... it always gets turned into one the first chance it can ever get
All I've been hearing on the news is "White cop shoots unarmed black man" "America has racist cops" etc.
When black teens are 21x more likely to be killed by an officer than whites, its fair to say that race is a factor. Racial stereotyping is what compels these officers to react to the situation the way they do, whether it be conscious or subconscious.
Blacks tend to be poorer than whites. Poor people tend to commit more crime than people with enough money. Therefore, the police patrol those neighborhoods. It has nothing to do with race, just facts.
So because of white privilege, black teens should be shot? Makes sense...
At this point its a case of fool me once, shame on you. Fool me tens of thousands of times, and you are a .loving. idiot for still denying the facts.
Im going to start my sentence with 'I believe...' because thats all it is. My opinion...
I believe that Taysby has made some valid points. And everyone else has too. However, what this does not call for is people saying 'These things happened, therefore it is a clear case of this'. Those are not all the facts, nor can 'this' be the only possible inference that can be made, nor is any of it clear cut. Having opinions is fine, but preaching is not ok unless all the facts are there, and what you are preaching makes logical sense. Otherwise all it leads to is arguments and personal attacks, which is not ok.
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 09:36:37 PM
White privilege is a hoax. Whoever turns to crime more will get shot more. Blacks tend to turn to crime more because they tend to be poorer. I don't see the problem
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!? You literally typed the .loving. problem and yet you can't find it!?!? White privilege is the fact the whites tend to be better off economically and have a leg up in society because of this.
I'm just going to say
A lot of the black people I know tend to put them selfs down with racism.
Quote from: Millionlittlee on December 04, 2014, 09:50:44 PM
I'm just going to say
A lot of the black people I know tend to put them selfs down with racism.
Yes, some people like to milk it, but he fact remains that it is harder to be a black person in America than it is to be white
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 04, 2014, 09:53:10 PM
Quote from: Millionlittlee on December 04, 2014, 09:50:44 PM
I'm just going to say
A lot of the black people I know tend to put them selfs down with racism.
Yes, some people like to milk it, but he fact remains that it is harder to be a black person in America than it is to be white
While this MAY be true we cannot prove this unless a single person has been in both the whites position and the black position. But still MAY be true
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 04, 2014, 09:40:51 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 09:36:37 PM
White privilege is a hoax. Whoever turns to crime more will get shot more. Blacks tend to turn to crime more because they tend to be poorer. I don't see the problem
ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!? You literally typed the .loving. problem and yet you can't find it!?!? White privilege is the fact the whites tend to be better off economically and have a leg up in society because of this.
Argus, if I could +1 you, I would.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 04, 2014, 09:53:10 PM
Quote from: Millionlittlee on December 04, 2014, 09:50:44 PM
I'm just going to say
A lot of the black people I know tend to put them selfs down with racism.
Yes, some people like to milk it, but he fact remains that it is harder to be a black person in America than it is to be white
Complete speculation, otherwise I'll need a definite source on that. According to the 2014 Census Bureau and Kaiser Foundation, 10% of Whites, 27% of Blacks, 24% of Hispanics, and 14% of other races live below the poverty line. This only comprises around 15% of the United States due to rounding, obviously. Keep in mind that this number is based on family( two adults and one child) income levels. Whites are about 220,000,000 strong, making the amount that live below the poverty line roughly 22,000,000. Blacks are about 39,000,000 strong, making the number of families in poverty about 7.8 million. Hispanics are roughly 50 million strong, making the number in poverty about 12 million. I'm writing this quickly because I'm tired and am failing to calculate the total for other. Personally, I believe we should have evolved beyond ethnicity, but that is apparently not the question. My ethnicity is "Other" despite me being Caucasian. Don't ask me, I don't know why. The only thing I know is that is what my birth certificate says. People don't have it hard because of their skin color, people have it hard because life is hard. It isn't a utopia. Do I think that officer meant to kill him? No, I don't. That's my opinion, though. I could be wrong. That's all I have to say for now.
Quote from: GlowackAttack on December 05, 2014, 02:14:41 AM
Ya know what the problem here is? White priveledge just can't disappear. I never had a choice in my skin color, it was just the hand I was dealt.... there's nothing that can be done to just magically remove the special magical white card, so there's no use using it as an excuse for anything since it'll never be fixed. It's just pushing the blame
As a fellow WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant), I know what you're saying, but we have to realize that the white card exists and try to mitigate the detrimental effects it has. We should have gotten past race at this point, but we haven't and ignoring that fact doesn't help.
Denying a race issue is at the heart of racism. As much as anyone would like to be free of that stigma/burden it is in everyone. It is imperative that each of us remain conscious of the potential problem in us and in every encounter with someone different. Embracing error, not ignoring it, is how to exorcise it.
Quote from: Langku on December 05, 2014, 10:24:00 AM
Denying a race issue is at the heart of racism. As much as anyone would like to be free of that stigma/burden it is in everyone. It is imperative that each of us remain conscious of the potential problem in us and in every encounter with someone different. Embracing error, not ignoring it, is how to exorcise it.
Very well said!
It seems every debate with taysbe turns intelligent into Agrus and Muggy vs Taysbe. It's kind of sad.
Quote from: Kaworu, the Fifth Child on December 05, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
It seems every debate with taysbe turns intelligent into Agrus and Muggy vs Taysbe. It's kind of sad.
They all do
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 05, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
Quote from: Kaworu, the Fifth Child on December 05, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
It seems every debate with taysbe turns intelligent into Agrus and Muggy vs Taysbe. It's kind of sad.
They all do
Wait, I turn into Argus?
I mean, when people respond like they do, it's how our conversations crumble.
Who's the one pelting insults when logic is questioned
I'm sorry if I incite some tempers when I question the actions of authority
Quote from: Kaworu, the Fifth Child on December 05, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
It seems every debate with taysbe turns intelligent into Agrus and Muggy vs Taysbe. It's kind of sad.
Do you even proof read before you post?
Sorry I'm someone who looks at wrong in the world and questions it, rather than assuming the authorities were correct.
The denying of the existence of white privilege by white folk is classic. You don't understand how it is to grow up another skin color and don't understand the standard prejudice met across the United States, especially by local law enforcement.
When white people are afraid of black people (officer statements in Michael brown case, Temir case observation) it justifies shooting them?
Why would they be afraid of black people? What makes them different from any other sort of people other than the skin color?
A lot of people here really believe all people are treated equally and that's just not the case
Quote from: Langku on December 05, 2014, 10:24:00 AM
Denying a race issue is at the heart of racism. As much as anyone would like to be free of that stigma/burden it is in everyone. It is imperative that each of us remain conscious of the potential problem in us and in every encounter with someone different. Embracing error, not ignoring it, is how to exorcise it.
People are naturally egocentric. This is a natural part of our biology. Every race has naturally inherited prejudice against something strange. It's a part of who we are. Racism, as we define it today, exists because it is taught. Everytime a black is killed by a white, people scream racism, disregarding anything else with the taught belief that whites hate black and the lives of blacks are full of despair and hardship because of their skin color. Life sucks, I can tell you that. Despair knows no prejudice. White privelage is a myth. It may appear that whites hold most of the jobs, but maybe it's because whites comprise nearly 80% of the American population?
To me, it appears that people use racism as a crutch, an excuse in an attempt to elude solving problems themselves. Before you yell at me because of my skin color and calling me racist because of that statement, allow me to explain my reasoning. I was born into poverty stricken family. I know how hard it can be. But, instead of saying our hardship was someone else's fault because we were a different color, we recognized that the only way we could change our situation was to change it ourselves. We worked hard, and until recently, we struggled with life. Nothing was handed to me because my skin looks white.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 12:51:10 PM
When white people are afraid of black people (officer statements in Michael brown case, Temir case observation) it justifies shooting them?
Why would they be afraid of black people? What makes them different from any other sort of people other than the skin color?
A lot of people here really believe all people are treated equally and that's just not the case
If someone was attacking you, would you not try to stop it? So if Michael Brown was white, his life wouldn't have mattered? What about Dillon Taylor? He was unarmed and killed by a black police officer? Where's the outrage? Where's the riot in my hometown? Why is his life worth less than a black man's? Police brutality, and brutality in general, knows no race.
You're right, people aren't treated equally....
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 05, 2014, 01:13:24 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 12:51:10 PM
When white people are afraid of black people (officer statements in Michael brown case, Temir case observation) it justifies shooting them?
Why would they be afraid of black people? What makes them different from any other sort of people other than the skin color?
A lot of people here really believe all people are treated equally and that's just not the case
If someone was attacking you, would you not try to stop it? So if Michael Brown was white, his life wouldn't have mattered? What about Dillon Taylor? He was unarmed and killed by a black police officer? Where's the outrage? Where's the riot in my hometown? Why is his life worth less than a black man's? Police brutality, and brutality in general, knows no race.
You're right, people aren't treated equally....
If you read the Temir case (Cleveland shooting)
An inexperienced cop shot immediately at a 13 year old who supposedly had a toy gun with him due to fear. Literally less than 10 seconds from getting out of the car, he fired.
He did not analyze the situation at all, just came guns blazing. Assuming he was a thug due to his skin color.
So tell me what justifies the victims death.
Quote from: Taysby on December 05, 2014, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 12:51:10 PM
Sorry I'm someone who looks at wrong in the world and questions it, rather than assuming the authorities were correct.
The denying of the existence of white privilege by white folk is classic. You don't understand how it is to grow up another skin color and don't understand the standard prejudice met across the United States, especially by local law enforcement.
When white people are afraid of black people (officer statements in Michael brown case, Temir case observation) it justifies shooting them?
Why would they be afraid of black people? What makes them different from any other sort of people other than the skin color?
A lot of people here really believe all people are treated equally and that's just not the case
I also question them. In face, I believe the officer was in the wrong here, but you refuse to listen to what I'm saying.
Skin color has nothing to do with it. It's their actions.
You continue to ignore anything they could have possibly done to justify their actions.
Because the person in question was acting threatening.
You just recently said it wasn't a race issue, it's just a police brutality issue, then you immediately flip flop. Seems like you're a hypocrite.
You clearly didnt watch the Eric garner video if you think he was threatening.
I hate to say it, but I don't think race is the main issue here. The issue is that cops feel as though they are "protected" by the law, and therefore can step over their boundaries and not be punished. That's my problem with this, not that race isn't an issue, but that's not the main issue in my eyes.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 05, 2014, 01:13:24 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 12:51:10 PM
When white people are afraid of black people (officer statements in Michael brown case, Temir case observation) it justifies shooting them?
Why would they be afraid of black people? What makes them different from any other sort of people other than the skin color?
A lot of people here really believe all people are treated equally and that's just not the case
If someone was attacking you, would you not try to stop it? So if Michael Brown was white, his life wouldn't have mattered? What about Dillon Taylor? He was unarmed and killed by a black police officer? Where's the outrage? Where's the riot in my hometown? Why is his life worth less than a black man's? Police brutality, and brutality in general, knows no race.
You're right, people aren't treated equally....
If you read the Temir case (Cleveland shooting)
An inexperienced cop shot immediately at a 13 year old who supposedly had a toy gun with him due to fear. Literally less than 10 seconds from getting out of the car, he fired.
He did not analyze the situation at all, just came guns blazing. Assuming he was a thug due to his skin color.
So tell me what justifies the victims death.
I see both sides of the case. He had pulled the orange cap off of the gun. The cop had no idea it was fake. To him, the gun was real and there was a threat. He didn't know. He's human. Then again, a thirteen year old is dead. He had family and friends. It sucks. I agree his death shouldn't have happened, but who is at fault? The cop was doing his job. Protect and serve. All he knew was that a hold had a gun and when the gun was waved at him, he shot.
That cop was let go for "incompetence" from his last policing job in a suburb.
So
What happens when police are incompetent? Because that's what's been at the heart of this issue. It's just unfortunate that all of the recent victims have been black.
And taysby just appears to be a victim blamer, so well just leave him be in his little world
"Girl got raped"
Well she shouldn't have been wearing what she wore
"Black person got shot"
Well they shouldn't have been suspicious
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on December 05, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
I hate to say it, but I don't think race is the main issue here. The issue is that cops feel as though they are "protected" by the law, and therefore can step over their boundaries and not be punished. That's my problem with this, not that race isn't an issue, but that's not the main issue in my eyes.
This
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 01:31:09 PM
"Girl got raped"
Well she shouldn't have been wearing what she wore
"Black person got shot"
Well they shouldn't have been suspicious
"Cop made mistake"
Well he should have known 100% of the facts before hand and shouldn't have been human.
Stop bashing others and focus on the issues.
This is one of the issues: victim blaming
Three people are dead due to incompetency of those who are responsible for keeping the public safe.
Is it ok for people to die due to incompetency in our police forces? I don't think so, I think accountability is something we need. Not DAs who hand pick juries to dismiss the possibility of trials.
Hoping the longer the issue is kept under wraps, the public will eventually lose their interest in it. Corrupt cop back on the street, ready to abuse the law again.
We have seen this over and over again, and some of us are calling it out. Some of you believe the police were justified in their actions.
Today NYPD police beat an 84 year old Asian man due to him j walking misunderstanding his language.
Why did they need to beat an 84 year old man? Resisting arrest? That's the most bullshit term used by law enforcement.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 01:35:15 PM
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on December 05, 2014, 01:26:26 PM
I hate to say it, but I don't think race is the main issue here. The issue is that cops feel as though they are "protected" by the law, and therefore can step over their boundaries and not be punished. That's my problem with this, not that race isn't an issue, but that's not the main issue in my eyes.
This
Im in full agreement here. I've dealt with some really good cops in my area that have helped me in dangerous situations (broken down in the middle of an extremely busy road with no recourse), but unless there are some drastic changes to the system, my first response to seeing a cop is going to be fear for my safety.
We can talk about the racial aspect of this because in my opinion that certainly plays a part in the story, but the aspect that concerns me most transcends racial boundaries - "Who watches the Watchmen?"
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 01:53:41 PM
This is one of the issues: victim blaming
Three people are dead due to incompetency of those who are responsible for keeping the public safe.
Is it ok for people to die due to incompetency in our police forces? I don't think so, I think accountability is something we need. Not DAs who hand pick juries to dismiss the possibility of trials.
Hoping the longer the issue is kept under wraps, the public will eventually lose their interest in it. Corrupt cop back on the street, ready to abuse the law again.
We have seen this over and over again, and some of us are calling it out. Some of you believe the police were justified in their actions.
Today NYPD police beat an 84 year old Asian man due to him j walking misunderstanding his language.
Why did they need to beat an 84 year old man? Resisting arrest? That's the most bullshit term used by law enforcement.
Yeah, police brutality is an issue, but all you did was attack Taysby. He's entitled to his own opinions. It's scientifically proven that people in power will abuse that power. There are far more police officers that are good people. Police brutality is not an entity. It's bad people being bad people and finding an outlet to be bad to other people. We only see a few horrible instances of police brutality or misconduct. It's the individuals that should be blamed. Because, as the internet would put it, #notallcops are evil.
So since we're on the same page:
Shouldn't bad/incompetent cops be held accountable for their actions? I never said all police are bad, I mainly want action against those that act above the law.
Kelly Thomas is another example of police brutality. He was a homeless mentally ill white man, they justified beating and tazing due to him "resisting arrest"
Those police were acquitted via trial 2 years later, only to be back on the streets patrolling again
Something is wrong with that.
Certainly all cops aren't like this, I can agree to that. But as for "we don't see a lot of police abusing power", that's literally because news outlets don't report on them as much as they should. Look up the numbers of police overstepping and killing, injuring, or falsely arresting people (not only colored) all over this country. It's risen significantly in the last 30 years.
As I've said before, race, even the cops themselves aren't the issue. Their blantant abuse of their positions and the fact they all get off with a " don't do it again" is fucked up. We shouldn't fear te people that are supposed to be protecting us.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 02:24:04 PM
So since we're on the same page:
Shouldn't bad/incompetent cops be held accountable for their actions? I never said all police are bad, I mainly want action against those that act above the law.
Kelly Thomas is another example of police brutality. He was a homeless mentally ill white man, they justified beating and tazing due to him "resisting arrest"
Those police were acquitted via trial 2 years later, only to be back on the streets patrolling again
Something is wrong with that.
Exactly. There is an issue with brutality and people using the police force as an outlet to abuse power. But, I can understand why the cop who shot the child was let off. Despite that, I believe the punishment for abuse, when there is solid proof, should be immediate removal from the police force and equitibale remedy for the family of the affected if there is a family.
^ see tays that is a reasonable line of thought. It's only a race issue cause the damn news channels are making people feel that way. The real debate should be cops abuse of power.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 05, 2014, 12:51:10 PM
Quote from: Kaworu, the Fifth Child on December 05, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
It seems every debate with taysbe turns intelligent into Agrus and Muggy vs Taysbe. It's kind of sad.
Do you even proof read before you post?
Sorry I'm someone who looks at wrong in the world and questions it, rather than assuming the authorities were correct.
The denying of the existence of white privilege by white folk is classic. You don't understand how it is to grow up another skin color and don't understand the standard prejudice met across the United States, especially by local law enforcement.
When white people are afraid of black people (officer statements in Michael brown case, Temir case observation) it justifies shooting them?
Why would they be afraid of black people? What makes them different from any other sort of people other than the skin color?
A lot of people here really believe all people are treated equally and that's just not the case
Nono I'm on your side.
Yes. The news wouldn't report it cause it wouldn't give them ratings. But I'm willing to bet the friends and family in this sort of instance would riot. And rightfully so.
Quote from: GlowackAttack on December 05, 2014, 08:47:56 PM
Could you imagine how crazy it would be if it was a white guy killed by a black cop? Do you think there would be as many riots and looting and whatnot happening?
Well white cops killed a mentally ill white man and there was plenty of uproar.
I get the point the articles trying to make, but it's so biased. The word choice, instantly making it a race thing again. Just a fyi any site that calls itself leftwing or rightwing news, probably isn't the best source for your info tays.
True, that might be a biased and unreliable source. rightwingnews.com? That's bias right there in the domain name. C'mon, tays, you know better than that! You wouldn't take an article posted by muggy seriously if it were from liberalmedia.com, would you?
But at least the point about the current media being a bunch of cherry-picking, flame-stoking idiots is undeniable :)
I think we've agreed generally that it isn't the only issue, not that it isn't an issue.
Yeah...race is still an issue when it comes to police brutality....
Quote from: Cender on December 08, 2014, 10:54:09 AM
I think we've agreed generally that it isn't the only issue, not that it isn't an issue.
So much this.
To further discussion.
http://www.voicesofliberty.com/article/this-one-trend-is-the-greatest-lost-point-on-police-brutality/
The article is worth the read.
Idk if anyone listens to Glenn Beck or not, but he had a REALLY good show on this subject a few days ago. Whether your a fan or not, I feel like it's a show that both muggy AND Taysby could appreciate at the same time, if that's an imaginable situation.
It's ok keep believing nothing wrong happened
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 10, 2014, 04:13:35 PM
It's ok keep believing nothing wrong happened
Muggy, I feel like the grand jury dropped the ball on this one. There should have been SOME kind of charge. Not even involuntary manslaughter? Come on. Unless there is evidence the jury saw that we are not, I don't agree with no charges.
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 10, 2014, 04:13:35 PM
It's ok keep believing nothing wrong happened
Muggy, I feel like the grand jury dropped the ball on this one. There should have been SOME kind of charge. Not even involuntary manslaughter? Come on. Unless there is evidence the jury saw that we are not, I don't agree with no charges.
This. We should also really have a separate system for trying police officers.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 10, 2014, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 10, 2014, 04:13:35 PM
It's ok keep believing nothing wrong happened
Muggy, I feel like the grand jury dropped the ball on this one. There should have been SOME kind of charge. Not even involuntary manslaughter? Come on. Unless there is evidence the jury saw that we are not, I don't agree with no charges.
This. We should also really have a separate system for trying police officers.
I would be down for this, but I don't feel it should be comprised of only other police officers, it should comprise SOME officers (current or retired), civilians, possibly older children (let's be real, they are un-tainted by media and still have a high level of moral). But I know the children thing wouldn't work.
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 11:10:33 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 10, 2014, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 10, 2014, 04:13:35 PM
It's ok keep believing nothing wrong happened
Muggy, I feel like the grand jury dropped the ball on this one. There should have been SOME kind of charge. Not even involuntary manslaughter? Come on. Unless there is evidence the jury saw that we are not, I don't agree with no charges.
This. We should also really have a separate system for trying police officers.
I would be down for this, but I don't feel it should be comprised of only other police officers, it should comprise SOME officers (current or retired), civilians, possibly older children (let's be real, they are un-tainted by media and still have a high level of moral). But I know the children thing wouldn't work.
I think it should be inquisitorial, and appointed, to keep it free from .politics. and media intervention.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 10, 2014, 11:18:18 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 11:10:33 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 10, 2014, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 10, 2014, 04:13:35 PM
It's ok keep believing nothing wrong happened
Muggy, I feel like the grand jury dropped the ball on this one. There should have been SOME kind of charge. Not even involuntary manslaughter? Come on. Unless there is evidence the jury saw that we are not, I don't agree with no charges.
This. We should also really have a separate system for trying police officers.
I would be down for this, but I don't feel it should be comprised of only other police officers, it should comprise SOME officers (current or retired), civilians, possibly older children (let's be real, they are un-tainted by media and still have a high level of moral). But I know the children thing wouldn't work.
I think it should be inquisitorial, and appointed, to keep it free from .politics. and media intervention.
Fair enough, just simply unbiased. But in theory, isn't that what we "have"?
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 11:22:46 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 10, 2014, 11:18:18 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 11:10:33 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 10, 2014, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 10, 2014, 04:13:35 PM
It's ok keep believing nothing wrong happened
Muggy, I feel like the grand jury dropped the ball on this one. There should have been SOME kind of charge. Not even involuntary manslaughter? Come on. Unless there is evidence the jury saw that we are not, I don't agree with no charges.
This. We should also really have a separate system for trying police officers.
I would be down for this, but I don't feel it should be comprised of only other police officers, it should comprise SOME officers (current or retired), civilians, possibly older children (let's be real, they are un-tainted by media and still have a high level of moral). But I know the children thing wouldn't work.
I think it should be inquisitorial, and appointed, to keep it free from .politics. and media intervention.
Fair enough, just simply unbiased. But in theory, isn't that what we "have"?
Inquisitorial is when a judge does all of the investigating and decision making, it's the form they use in Europe. We would one unbiased (hopefully) judge looking into the case privately instead of a media circus.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 10, 2014, 10:31:23 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on December 10, 2014, 09:14:35 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 10, 2014, 04:13:35 PM
It's ok keep believing nothing wrong happened
Muggy, I feel like the grand jury dropped the ball on this one. There should have been SOME kind of charge. Not even involuntary manslaughter? Come on. Unless there is evidence the jury saw that we are not, I don't agree with no charges.
This. We should also really have a separate system for trying police officers.
But would a separate system really be fair for everyone else? This idea sounds good on paper, but it would kind of go against the right to a fair and speedy trail amongst a jury of your peers.
Plus, there's probably no way we could possibly find a judge who doesn't watch tv.
Yeah well...clearly these last few cases have been flop sided when going to trial.
There needs to be an actual punishment for cops found crossing the line of what is justified.
Not a slap on the wrist and a paid vacation for 6 months
I disagree, media is what allowed us to witness someone killing another person in public over the supposed cause of selling untaxed tobacco.
Don't respond as Taylor, respond as the people who founded this country to leave behind oppression from the English. Untaxed tobacco sales should not lead to your death and the phrase "Resisting arrest" is the most over used phrases by all law enforcement. When someone questions their arrest, shouldn't they understand why and be presented with evidence of their wrong doing?
"Innocent until proven guilty" isn't the case anymore. "Guilty because I say so." is the trend. Did you know DUI checkpoints are not a legal stop? They do it anyways.
A man in TX (or another state where you can carry) was wearing his gun in holster and a cop asked to take it, but why? The cop said he was being suspicious. The guy then replied to recite the law and requested the officers superior who immediately told the officer who was harassing the citizen to give him back his gun.
We have people joining the police force who THINK they know the law, but really they just act above it. We as the people of the USA have seen this for so long and we are tired of criminals being represented as local heros. I'm not saying all cops are bad, but the bad ones are awful and it's 30% or more acting in corruption , not 1% of the police population.
LAPD was found guilty of officers tampering with recording gear, the police chief even knew about it and did nothing. It was reported by an officer who quit/resigned after being tired of working in the hostile environment the .politics. allow.
We would not know any of this if it wasn't for media.
Killing someone else who is not attempting to harm anyone is not an act out of concern for safety
Quote from: Taysby on December 11, 2014, 03:10:28 PM
I go on a mass murdering spree then the police arrive. I drop my gun and put my hands up. The police should not shoot me?
Yes, because the police are not omnipotent. Their duty is to bring you to a trial, and you are presumed innocent until proven guilty (that's kind of how our legal system works bud....)
You're just being random and not actually looking at what this thread was based upon.
I'm talking about a man who was killed for supposedly selling cigarettes and you take it out of context completely by putting up a magic Christmas land scenario.
Actually add to the debate instead of spinning everything.
Your tactics are weak and this isn't about winning a debate, this is talking about the value of human life. Which I believe you don't even value, if someone is not directly connected to you, you don't care.
Quote from: Taysby on December 11, 2014, 03:10:28 PM
I go on a mass murdering spree then the police arrive. I drop my gun and put my hands up. The police should not shoot me?
And if you're a mass murderer, you shouldn't be put to death but to sit in isolation for the rest of your miserable existence. Death is too easy.
The police who shoot the guy in passion act above the law, instead of letting judges and the court system do their job, the cop feels he is entitled to finish the job, his job is simply to apprehend someone so that our justice system can figure out an appropriate punishment, his job is not the judge, jury and execution. He is not judge dredd
Muggy, and posters of the like, thank you for showing me not all Americans think cops have the right to end life when unthreatened. They are trained for these situations and still fail to do their jobs right. Tays stop using hypotheticals that don't pertain to the case. He didn't murder people, he sold cigs. Brown didn't kill anyone he punched a cop, looking at te hospital pics of willsons face all he had was some "red" bruising. Seems he over reacted, and now a unarmed man is dead. You miss or willfully are leaving out vital points on these cases that show these cops and others are abusing their positions.
Quote from: Taysby on December 11, 2014, 04:41:40 PM
My point being that if someone just shot 50 people, why should the police believe that he won't try something else? Or run away?
He punched the cop, resisted arrest, etc. Even though the cop isn't innocent, he wasn't either.
I feel like these cops should be hit with something, but I don't think it should be as serious as manslaughter because the victims weren't innocent.
Firstly, practically no one is innocent, and secondly, the police were not given the right to end a life unless their life was directly in danger. The only way the legal system works is if the police give people a fair trial, this isn't .loving. Dredd.
What qualifies as resisting arrest is absurd
You did not prove your point
And I just want to clarify here for a minute, this cop did not murder this man, the cop did something stupid that caused him to die. The same as someone dying from an accident with alcohol involved, or texting and running someone over, murder required the intent to end life. I'm 99.999999999999999% sure the cop NEVER intended for the guy to die. That being said, if someone dies because your texting or driving drunk, there are repercussions, as there should be in this case.
Quote from: Wingnut on December 11, 2014, 07:16:12 PM
And I just want to clarify here for a minute, this cop did not murder this man, the cop did something stupid that caused him to die. The same as someone dying from an accident with alcohol involved, or texting and running someone over, murder required the intent to end life. I'm 99.999999999999999% sure the cop NEVER intended for the guy to die. That being said, if someone dies because your texting or driving drunk, there are repercussions, as there should be in this case.
It's not accidental using an illegal chokehold in a city that has banned the policy by law ( and rightfully so).
An now thanks to tays we know resisting arrest justifies shooting or killing people. The threat to the officer must be life threatening, not on no he can punch me or something of the like. Tays they are TRAINED for this, no excuse to .love. up as much they do.they are not normal people, hence why we hold them to a higher standard, they help enforce law. They know better and should do better.
Quote from: ShadowBarbarian on December 11, 2014, 07:19:19 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 11, 2014, 06:58:52 PM
I get that it's an exageration. My point was to show that just because someone's hands were up don't necessarily mean they aren't threatening.
Again, that's what training is for.
Nobody is perfect and hindsight is always 20/20
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 11, 2014, 03:25:06 PM
You're just being random and not actually looking at what this thread was based upon.
I'm talking about a man who was killed for supposedly selling cigarettes and you take it out of context completely by putting up a magic Christmas land scenario.
Actually add to the debate instead of spinning everything.
Your tactics are weak and this isn't about winning a debate, this is talking about the value of human life. Which I believe you don't even value, if someone is not directly connected to you, you don't care.
Quote from: Taysby on December 11, 2014, 03:10:28 PM
I go on a mass murdering spree then the police arrive. I drop my gun and put my hands up. The police should not shoot me?
And if you're a mass murderer, you shouldn't be put to death but to sit in isolation for the rest of your miserable existence. Death is too easy.
The police who shoot the guy in passion act above the law, instead of letting judges and the court system do their job, the cop feels he is entitled to finish the job, his job is simply to apprehend someone so that our justice system can figure out an appropriate punishment, his job is not the judge, jury and execution. He is not judge dredd
Countering a logical fallacy with a logical fallacy; I like it. Regardless, you are correct. The man did die and the officers actions led to the event that caused his death, not the actual death. If you can still breathe, you aren't being choked. Source: I've been in an actually choke hold. The definitely should be a civil charge here for violating city code and whatever else the family wants to sue him for, but that's up to them.
Even then, it would be up to the jury. He was breaking a stupid law selling cigs, and no matter how stupid a law is, there's still a punishment (not death obviously). So the way they sort the negligence (if they are unbiased) wouldn't be 100% officer/%0 dude.
Quote from: Infektor on December 11, 2014, 07:48:27 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on December 11, 2014, 07:16:12 PM
And I just want to clarify here for a minute, this cop did not murder this man, the cop did something stupid that caused him to die. The same as someone dying from an accident with alcohol involved, or texting and running someone over, murder required the intent to end life. I'm 99.999999999999999% sure the cop NEVER intended for the guy to die. That being said, if someone dies because your texting or driving drunk, there are repercussions, as there should be in this case.
It's not accidental using an illegal chokehold in a city that has banned the policy by law ( and rightfully so).
So texting during and drunk driving is legal? The officer did not put the man into a choke hold with the intention of causing him to have a heart attack. Do you seriously believe he intended to kill the guy? Honest answer now. This would be manslaughter, negligent homicide, but not murder. I completely agree the cop was out of line, and should absolutely spend years in jail. I think zero repercussions is bull sheep and possibly a cover up.
Edit: sorry, not a cover up, but giving the cop a pass which happens way to much and needs to be stopped.
Quote from: Taysby on December 11, 2014, 08:18:31 PM
Also, interesting fact, Very few officers listen to the ban on chokeholds. There have been literally thousands of documented uses in the past couple years. Not saying it's good, but he probably figured it was one of those rules that no one cares about (like open toe-ed shoes at school. That's technically a dress code violation, but no one cares)
Yes because wearing flip-flops and killing people using illegal chokeholds are two comparable things. You are reading the stupid things you are typing, right?
Taysby: The worst
Quote from: Wingnut on December 11, 2014, 08:46:38 PM
Quote from: Infektor on December 11, 2014, 07:48:27 PM
Quote from: Wingnut on December 11, 2014, 07:16:12 PM
And I just want to clarify here for a minute, this cop did not murder this man, the cop did something stupid that caused him to die. The same as someone dying from an accident with alcohol involved, or texting and running someone over, murder required the intent to end life. I'm 99.999999999999999% sure the cop NEVER intended for the guy to die. That being said, if someone dies because your texting or driving drunk, there are repercussions, as there should be in this case.
It's not accidental using an illegal chokehold in a city that has banned the policy by law ( and rightfully so).
So texting during and drunk driving is legal? The officer did not put the man into a choke hold with the intention of causing him to have a heart attack. Do you seriously believe he intended to kill the guy? Honest answer now. This would be manslaughter, negligent homicide, but not murder. I completely agree the cop was out of line, and should absolutely spend years in jail. I think zero repercussions is bull sheep and possibly a cover up.
Edit: sorry, not a cover up, but giving the cop a pass which happens way to much and needs to be stopped.
I think he needs to be charged with manslaughter,yes.
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 11, 2014, 10:34:01 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 11, 2014, 08:18:31 PM
Also, interesting fact, Very few officers listen to the ban on chokeholds. There have been literally thousands of documented uses in the past couple years. Not saying it's good, but he probably figured it was one of those rules that no one cares about (like open toe-ed shoes at school. That's technically a dress code violation, but no one cares)
Yes because wearing flip-flops and killing people using illegal chokeholds are two comparable things. You are reading the stupid things you are typing, right?
You realize you aren't trying to understand what I mean by something. You take it and immediately twist it to fit your definition of me being a "stupid internet troll". Also, it was a passing comparison. It was not what I was trying to get it. It was simply an illusion to help you understand what I meant by the previous sentence.
The point I'm trying to make with that is it could be seen as no big deal in their unit. Every does it. No one says no. So the people don't know better.
And before you say "but it's lethal!" It's pretty close to the same as tazing someone. Will it kill them if you do it right? No. Will it if you do it for too long? Yes.
You said e shouldn't be charged with manslaughter. You are aware that manslaughter means to kill someone without intent yes? If so, please elaborate on your reasoning.
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 12:07:10 PM
Yes that is what manslaughter means. It also comes with a felony. I do do believe they should get punished, but not with something as serious as a felony. They were just trying to do their job.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
You take it and immediately twist it to fit your definition of me being a "stupid internet troll".
I honestly just think your opinion is so attrocious that you cannot be human.
I'm very sure everyone does not share your specific opinion and word. They may have the same ideas in a general sense, but by all means they are not you.
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 12, 2014, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
You take it and immediately twist it to fit your definition of me being a "stupid internet troll".
I honestly just think your opinion is so attrocious that you cannot be human.
Most conservatives and libertarians agree with me.
Look! We found the root of the problem!
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 12, 2014, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
You take it and immediately twist it to fit your definition of me being a "stupid internet troll".
I honestly just think your opinion is so attrocious that you cannot be human.
Most conservatives and libertarians agree with me.
Look! We found the root of the problem!
Lol
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 12, 2014, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
You take it and immediately twist it to fit your definition of me being a "stupid internet troll".
I honestly just think your opinion is so attrocious that you cannot be human.
Most conservatives and libertarians agree with me.
Look! We found the root of the problem!
AGRUS HITTIN WHERE IT COUNTS
P
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 06:51:20 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 12, 2014, 03:11:39 PM
Can we just assume I am not in 2nd grade please and that I do have some common sense?
-Franchise that will employ interns who will work for free and I will have already paid off my original expenses within 6 months
-Buy gold from me, gold is great for saving money
-A man deserves to die if he commits a crime, even if that crime is not proven, and that crime specifically is selling single cigarettes
-RG TRON N NARSET are the best!!!!!
- "Stop generalizing/I'm generalizing it"
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 06:55:04 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 12, 2014, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
You take it and immediately twist it to fit your definition of me being a "stupid internet troll".
I honestly just think your opinion is so attrocious that you cannot be human.
Most conservatives and libertarians agree with me.
Look! We found the root of the problem!
Are you saying that 50% of americans are atrocious?
No, just that they are wrong, where did the word atrocious come into play? The only reason conservatives have any power in the government is ignorance among the masses a lot of people with superiority complexes.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 09:20:52 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 06:55:04 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 12, 2014, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
You take it and immediately twist it to fit your definition of me being a "stupid internet troll".
I honestly just think your opinion is so attrocious that you cannot be human.
Most conservatives and libertarians agree with me.
Look! We found the root of the problem!
Are you saying that 50% of americans are atrocious?
No, just that they are wrong, where did the word atrocious come into play? The only reason conservatives have any power in the government is ignorance among the masses a lot of people with superiority complexes.
No opinion is wrong or right. Even your grossly biased and, most likely hate driven, opinion. If I'm not mistaken, didn't the man who headed the affordable care act call the American public stupid?
And it seems here that you're one of the few that display a superiority complex.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 09:20:52 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 06:55:04 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 12, 2014, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
You take it and immediately twist it to fit your definition of me being a "stupid internet troll".
I honestly just think your opinion is so attrocious that you cannot be human.
Most conservatives and libertarians agree with me.
Look! We found the root of the problem!
Are you saying that 50% of americans are atrocious?
No, just that they are wrong, where did the word atrocious come into play? The only reason conservatives have any power in the government is ignorance among the masses a lot of people with superiority complexes.
No opinion is wrong or right. Even your grossly biased and, most likely hate driven, opinion. If I'm not mistaken, didn't the man who headed the affordable care act call the American public stupid?
[/quote]I disagree, most opinions are stupid. Bias is a broad term, yes I have a tendency to think a certain way, but I am able to consider the opposition's viewpoint (which I critically analyze and find incorrect). How is wanting justice for a man killed by the police hate driven? Lastly, how is that person's opinion relevant to this discussion?
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 12, 2014, 10:33:00 PM
And it seems here that you're one of the few that display a superiority complex.
You're on to me, asking for equality and justice is me displaying my superiority. Good job.
Well, this argument has done a great job of devolving into mudslinging on both sides. Can't we all just pretend this isn't the Internet for just a little while and have a reasonable debate?
Quote from: Cender on December 12, 2014, 10:48:28 PM
Well, this argument has done a great job of devolving into mudslinging on both sides. Can't we all just pretend this isn't the Internet for just a little while and have a reasonable debate?
We tried for a while, but when it comes to equating wearing flip flops and killing someone, it's quite difficult.
Ron Paul for President 2016.
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 12:07:10 PM
Yes that is what manslaughter means. It also comes with a felony. I do do believe they should get punished, but not with something as serious as a felony. They were just trying to do their job.
They were trying to do their job improperly, by not following the rules, which they're the rule enforcers of society which make this more of an issue because they don't following the .FRACKING. rules that have been put in place for them and aren't punished for it!, and trying to arrest a man for a suspected misdemeanour that at most should have been a ticket, not a detainment/arrest or especially an illegal takedown that can lead to serious injury or death.
Again, over something as petty as selling cigs; I'd give the guy a stern talking to and let him walk before I'd put his life or mine in a situation like that, especially since the original reason they were called had nothing to do with him selling cigarettes, he was in trouble with that prior and they never said originally that he was doing that at that instance, they just assumed he was and tried to arrest him on suspicion of doing it again.
Police are supposed to have cognitive skills and talk to people they abuse their power on a epic scale and get away with it because they obviously know they can. Hold the people who break the rules accountable and punish them accordingly. Sell cigs illegally; slap on the wrist/ticket. You're an officer in the field and you fail to properly assess a threat and decide to take down a man with a choke hold which has been deemed illegal; you're fired and will face charges because you failed to do your job properly and follow the rules that have been put in place for you resulting in the death of a man. He did have a heart attack but the cause of death was compression of the neck and chest from the one cop around his throat and 4 on his back "necessary? :/ " He would have died without the heart attack.
People need to stop watching Fox News. I have so much more to post about the topic but FFS see the problem for what it is and stop protecting the cops just because they're cops. They need to be held to a higher standard, and held accountable for their actions. It's getting out of hand.
In this case manslaughter should be one of the charges he faces because by definition that's what he committed, if he gets off then he gets off but at least there would be a trial rather than the courts saying that they did absolutely nothing wrong when obviously there's issues.
Quote from: KILLERBEE on December 13, 2014, 02:31:54 AM
I have so much more to post about the topic but FFS see the problem for what it is and stop protecting the cops just because they're cops. They need to be held to a higher standard, and held accountable for their actions. It's getting out of hand.
This.
Quote from: Gorzo on December 04, 2014, 05:25:31 PMif I stab you in the toe and you bleed to death because you have hemophilia, I stabbed you to death. It's just what it means.
So glad you are not a mod here anymore.
I mean, you are so full of hate. Why?
How would this case be judged under our iMtG Law?
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 06:56:27 AM
How would this case be judged under our iMtG Law?
Well, in the Imtg law it says, " Do not break the law in the prevention of law breaking." So I think that is pretty much all we would need to convict this guy for murder.
Quote from: the_intelligentleman on December 13, 2014, 10:20:53 AM
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 06:56:27 AM
How would this case be judged under our iMtG Law?
Well, in the Imtg law it says, " Do not break the law in the prevention of law breaking." So I think that is pretty much all we would need to convict this guy for murder.
2nd degree murder, technically.
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 06:18:37 AM
Quote from: Gorzo on December 04, 2014, 05:25:31 PMif I stab you in the toe and you bleed to death because you have hemophilia, I stabbed you to death. It's just what it means.
So glad you are not a mod here anymore.
I mean, you are so full of hate. Why?
Lol No idea where you get any notion of hatred from that example. Are you suggesting that you think I actually recommend stabbing taysby in the toe? You should probably notice that nobody (including taysby) has even thought I meant anything remotely close to that. Probably because they all understand context. ;)
Quote from: Gorzo on December 13, 2014, 12:58:01 PM
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 06:18:37 AM
Quote from: Gorzo on December 04, 2014, 05:25:31 PMif I stab you in the toe and you bleed to death because you have hemophilia, I stabbed you to death. It's just what it means.
So glad you are not a mod here anymore.
I mean, you are so full of hate. Why?
Lol No idea where you get any notion of hatred from that example. Are you suggesting that you think I actually recommend stabbing taysby in the toe? You should probably notice that nobody (including taysby) has even thought I meant anything remotely close to that. Probably because they all understand context. ;)
To put this back into context, would you mind telling me if goal justifies the means?
As for the hate, you right above suggesting that I'm stupid, and that I cannot understand context. Perhaps you are not full of hate, only 90% of it lol.
Quote from: Taysby on December 13, 2014, 01:11:57 PM
I do agree with you that there should have at least been a trial.
Finally...this is all we are asking for, the Grand Jury saying that there was insufficient evidence was a load of .poo..
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 01:30:28 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 13, 2014, 01:11:57 PM
I do agree with you that there should have at least been a trial.
Finally...this is all we are asking for, the Grand Jury saying that there was insufficient evidence was a load of .poo..
Are you mad? Taysby was saying this from the very start of the thread. Is hate blinding you?
Do you find a victimless crime (selling untaxed cigs) worthy of death? Or even just violence?
Taysby has reasoned that because the man is a criminal, his death was technically his fault.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 13, 2014, 01:50:57 PM
Do you find a victimless crime (selling untaxed cigs) worthy of death? Or even just violence?
Taysby has reasoned that because the man is a criminal, his death was technically his fault.
No Taysby never did reasoned that. Taysby reasoned that the cop should be punished for something else than murder, not that the victim was deserving capital punishment as you seem to be suggesting. Is hate blinding you? :P
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 01:37:45 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 01:30:28 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 13, 2014, 01:11:57 PM
I do agree with you that there should have at least been a trial.
Finally...this is all we are asking for, the Grand Jury saying that there was insufficient evidence was a load of .poo..
Are you mad? Taysby was saying this from the very start of the thread. Is hate blinding you?
Piotr, I think "hate" is a very strong word. All Argus is saying is that the grand jury should have had more then enough evidence on trial. He has a right to his opinion, and therefore I don't think you have the right to say that he "is blinded by hate". Against what exactly is he so hateful? I don't see anywhere where "hate" would come into play.
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 01:37:45 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 01:30:28 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 13, 2014, 01:11:57 PM
I do agree with you that there should have at least been a trial.
Finally...this is all we are asking for, the Grand Jury saying that there was insufficient evidence was a load of .poo..
Are you mad? Taysby was saying this from the very start of the thread. Is hate blinding you?
Taysby has been saying from the start of the thread that the officer shouldn't have been tried for manslaughter, claiming it should be a lesser charge. Is hate blinding you?
His first post on the thread:
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 12:34:42 PM
He was resisting arrest in the first place though.
I'd say take him to court about the choke-hold, but not for manslaughter because that wasn't his intent.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 13, 2014, 01:50:57 PM
Do you find a victimless crime (selling untaxed cigs) worthy of death? Or even just violence?
Taysby has reasoned that because the man is a criminal, his death was technically his fault.
This also implies that it was at no level the criminals fault. I genuinely feel that part of the worlds problem is the inability to accept ones own responsibility in any situation. No, this was not the guys fault, but he was making the concious decision to break the law, to resist compliance to the officers instruction and arguably also being in a situation where his health was not good making a heart attack more likely (mind you, his conditions may NOT be of his own making from injuries inhibiting excersize, genetics, etc....). I also want to state that the same can be said for the officer, I will say without hesitation, the situation could have been handled better, but the officer did not follow that avenue, therefore he should be held responsible for his part in the situation.
But I'm going to finish with this comment, I have studied Brazilian jiu-jitsu for about 6 years, I get choked on a regular basis (a few times a month, sometimes more). If I had to choose between being choked or tazed, choke me all day long. Tazing this man would have led to the same end result and the officer would have been 100% within his departments compliance. I'm positive that people would stl be trying to fry the guy, that's my .02.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 10:40:32 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 09:20:52 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 06:55:04 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 12, 2014, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 12, 2014, 02:29:04 PM
Quote from: Taysby on December 12, 2014, 10:13:17 AM
You take it and immediately twist it to fit your definition of me being a "stupid internet troll".
I honestly just think your opinion is so attrocious that you cannot be human.
Most conservatives and libertarians agree with me.
Look! We found the root of the problem!
Are you saying that 50% of americans are atrocious?
No, just that they are wrong, where did the word atrocious come into play? The only reason conservatives have any power in the government is ignorance among the masses a lot of people with superiority complexes.
No opinion is wrong or right. Even your grossly biased and, most likely hate driven, opinion. If I'm not mistaken, didn't the man who headed the affordable care act call the American public stupid?
I disagree, most opinions are stupid. Bias is a broad term, yes I have a tendency to think a certain way, but I am able to consider the opposition's viewpoint (which I critically analyze and find incorrect). How is wanting justice for a man killed by the police hate driven? Lastly, how is that person's opinion relevant to this discussion?
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 12, 2014, 10:33:00 PM
And it seems here that you're one of the few that display a superiority complex.
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 12, 2014, 10:33:00 PMYou're on to me, asking for equality and justice is me displaying my superiority. Good job.
People thought Capernicus was stupid when he said the Earth revolves around the sun. You even proved my point that no opinion is wrong or right. Misinformed or not, it's neither correct nor incorrect. As I said before, there can still be a civil case, so justice hasn't been avoided or served yet. Lastly, how is the opinion on the reason why conservatives have any power relevant to this discussion?
No regard to what other say(Taysby and any one else that doesn't always agree with)
Haughtiness, lack of empathy( for police)
Unreasonable expectations of others(Cops should be perfect and better than everyone else)
I wasn't criticizing your opinion, I was criticizing how your views are polar and you won't open up to new ideas. You and others(Taysby, and Muggy Wuggy) are completely polar in your views and want others to join your side and lose individuality.
But, that's just my opinion.
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 02:08:43 PM
I wasn't criticizing your opinion, I was criticizing how your views are polar and you won't open up to new ideas. You and others(Taysby, and Muggy Wuggy) are completely polar in your views and want others to join your side and lose individuality.
But, that's just my opinion.
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me (someone you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking me personally, please start another thread.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 02:08:43 PM
I wasn't criticizing your opinion, I was criticizing how your views are polar and you won't open up to new ideas. You and others(Taysby, and Muggy Wuggy) are completely polar in your views and want others to join your side and lose individuality.
But, that's just my opinion.
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me (someone you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking me personally, please start another thread.
DAMN AGRUS YOU KNOW HOW TO HIT
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 01:10:27 PM
Quote from: Gorzo on December 13, 2014, 12:58:01 PM
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 06:18:37 AM
Quote from: Gorzo on December 04, 2014, 05:25:31 PMif I stab you in the toe and you bleed to death because you have hemophilia, I stabbed you to death. It's just what it means.
So glad you are not a mod here anymore.
I mean, you are so full of hate. Why?
Lol No idea where you get any notion of hatred from that example. Are you suggesting that you think I actually recommend stabbing taysby in the toe? You should probably notice that nobody (including taysby) has even thought I meant anything remotely close to that. Probably because they all understand context. ;)
To put this back into context, would you mind telling me if goal justifies the means?
As for the hate, you right above suggesting that I'm stupid, and that I cannot understand context. Perhaps you are not full of hate, only 90% of it lol.
What goal? What means? And yes, that matters.
And how does you being stupid equate to me being hateful? You are a strange, silly little goofball, sir.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 02:08:43 PM
I wasn't criticizing your opinion, I was criticizing how your views are polar and you won't open up to new ideas. You and others(Taysby, and Muggy Wuggy) are completely polar in your views and want others to join your side and lose individuality.
But, that's just my opinion.
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me (someone you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking me personally, please start another thread.
Lol are you serious?
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me and Taysby(people you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking Taysby or myself personally, please start another thread.
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 07:21:15 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 02:08:43 PM
I wasn't criticizing your opinion, I was criticizing how your views are polar and you won't open up to new ideas. You and others(Taysby, and Muggy Wuggy) are completely polar in your views and want others to join your side and lose individuality.
But, that's just my opinion.
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me (someone you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking me personally, please start another thread.
Lol are you serious?
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me and Taysby(people you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking Taysby or myself personally, please start another thread.
I've called a few arguments idiotic, and I have claimed that Conservatives are wrong in this situation, but if you read, I never personally attacked either of you in this thread. Nice try throwing my words back at me though, and this is still off-topic.
At this point, the thread has devolved into name-calling, I'm out. It's sad that we still haven't gotten past race, and that millions of Americans can turn a blind eye to people being illegally killed by the police with no consequences, but wasting my time here won't help that.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 07:21:15 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 02:08:43 PM
I wasn't criticizing your opinion, I was criticizing how your views are polar and you won't open up to new ideas. You and others(Taysby, and Muggy Wuggy) are completely polar in your views and want others to join your side and lose individuality.
But, that's just my opinion.
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me (someone you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking me personally, please start another thread.
Lol are you serious?
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me and Taysby(people you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking Taysby or myself personally, please start another thread.
I've called a few arguments idiotic, and I have claimed that Conservatives are wrong in this situation, but if you read, I never personally attacked either of you in this thread. Nice try throwing my words back at me though, and this is still off-topic.
At this point, the thread has devolved into name-calling, I'm out. It's sad that we still haven't gotten past race, and that millions of Americans can turn a blind eye to people being illegally killed by the police with no consequences, but wasting my time here won't help that.
I apologize, it's not all directed at you, but every thread Taysby posts in is you or someone else just attacking him at every chance you get. You call him stupid, his rationale idiotic, and berate him at any chance while offering little information to the actual debate other than ways you can disprove him. The only name calling that has been done is by you and by others. And I'm tired of it.
I agree, and so does the majority, that the cop should receive punishment. It's difficult to discern his true intent that day, but I truly believe that people are good at heart, and I don't believe he wanted the man dead. The man died of a heart attack and not suffocation, and that's probably why they didn't indict him. If the deceased's family really does care about him and isn't out just to gain fame, publicity, or money, they should file a civil suit.
I agree that there are a lot of people that abuse their power in the police force. Most get off Scott-free just because they have a say in the legal system.
Last year there were 320 deaths caused by law enforcement, and a total of 105 that were killed in the line of duty in 2013. Regardless if the cop is evil or not, if you aggravate an officer or commit a crime, you should be prepared for anything.
Saying race is an issue but then blaming it on the white populace is extremely racist and will do nothing to solve the race issue(if there is one) and most likely hurts any progress that could be made. The only reason we hear about the white v. black killings and not black v. white is because the media saps every cent it can out of it.It's hard to determine what the actually causation of the late minority populace in prison is actually from. We should also be wary of Al Sharpton and people like him who gain fame and money(most likely) from(exploiting) these incidents.
TL;DR
Stop hating people and completely disregarding what they have to say when they have a view that doesn't agree with yours. This goes for everyone, but it always seems directed at Taysby.
The officer needs to be punished, but I don't believe that he killed the man on purpose. Not all cops are bad, but some are and they should be punished. Race might be an issue, but it's hard to say because so many use it as an excuse, and a true answer will probably never come.
C'mon guys, can't we all just get along?
Quote from: Taysby on December 14, 2014, 12:08:00 AM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 10:46:53 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 07:21:15 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 13, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 13, 2014, 02:08:43 PM
I wasn't criticizing your opinion, I was criticizing how your views are polar and you won't open up to new ideas. You and others(Taysby, and Muggy Wuggy) are completely polar in your views and want others to join your side and lose individuality.
But, that's just my opinion.
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me (someone you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking me personally, please start another thread.
Lol are you serious?
Well, sorry to say this, but your opinion of me and Taysby(people you've never met), doesn't much concern me, and it's off topic. If you'd like to keep attacking Taysby or myself personally, please start another thread.
I've called a few arguments idiotic, and I have claimed that Conservatives are wrong in this situation, but if you read, I never personally attacked either of you in this thread. Nice try throwing my words back at me though, and this is still off-topic.
At this point, the thread has devolved into name-calling, I'm out. It's sad that we still haven't gotten past race, and that millions of Americans can turn a blind eye to people being illegally killed by the police with no consequences, but wasting my time here won't help that.
I apologize, it's not all directed at you, but every thread Taysby posts in is you or someone else just attacking him at every chance you get. You call him stupid, his rationale idiotic, and berate him at any chance while offering little information to the actual debate other than ways you can disprove him. The only name calling that has been done is by you and by others. And I'm tired of it.
I agree, and so does the majority, that the cop should receive punishment. It's difficult to discern his true intent that day, but I truly believe that people are good at heart, and I don't believe he wanted the man dead. The man died of a heart attack and not suffocation, and that's probably why they didn't indict him. If the deceased's family really does care about him and isn't out just to gain fame, publicity, or money, they should file a civil suit.
I agree that there are a lot of people that abuse their power in the police force. Most get off Scott-free just because they have a say in the legal system.
Last year there were 320 deaths caused by law enforcement, and a total of 105 that were killed in the line of duty in 2013. Regardless if the cop is evil or not, if you aggravate an officer or commit a crime, you should be prepared for anything.
Saying race is an issue but then blaming it on the white populace is extremely racist and will do nothing to solve the race issue(if there is one) and most likely hurts any progress that could be made. The only reason we hear about the white v. black killings and not black v. white is because the media saps every cent it can out of it.It's hard to determine what the actually causation of the late minority populace in prison is actually from. We should also be wary of Al Sharpton and people like him who gain fame and money(most likely) from(exploiting) these incidents.
TL;DR
Stop hating people and completely disregarding what they have to say when they have a view that doesn't agree with yours. This goes for everyone, but it always seems directed at Taysby.
The officer needs to be punished, but I don't believe that he killed the man on purpose. Not all cops are bad, but some are and they should be punished. Race might be an issue, but it's hard to say because so many use it as an excuse, and a true answer will probably never come.
Too bad karma's broken. I'd come back and plus this for like a month. ;)
This.
Quote from: Gorzo on December 13, 2014, 03:29:33 PM
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 01:10:27 PM
Quote from: Gorzo on December 13, 2014, 12:58:01 PM
Quote from: Piotr on December 13, 2014, 06:18:37 AM
Quote from: Gorzo on December 04, 2014, 05:25:31 PMif I stab you in the toe and you bleed to death because you have hemophilia, I stabbed you to death. It's just what it means.
So glad you are not a mod here anymore.
I mean, you are so full of hate. Why?
Lol No idea where you get any notion of hatred from that example. Are you suggesting that you think I actually recommend stabbing taysby in the toe? You should probably notice that nobody (including taysby) has even thought I meant anything remotely close to that. Probably because they all understand context. ;)
To put this back into context, would you mind telling me if goal justifies the means?
As for the hate, you right above suggesting that I'm stupid, and that I cannot understand context. Perhaps you are not full of hate, only 90% of it lol.
What goal? What means? And yes, that matters.
And how does you being stupid equate to me being hateful? You are a strange, silly little goofball, sir.
This was a rhetorical question, I lost hope of getting any sense or logic from you long time ago.
Your goal of bashing everything which is 'right' is making you use hate as your means. You are pathetically predictable at that. 'every thread Taysby posts in is you or someone else just attacking him at every chance you get. You call him stupid, his rationale idiotic, and berate him at any chance while offering little information to the actual debate other than ways you can disprove him. The only name calling that has been done is by you and by others. And I'm tired of it.'
With all due respect, the name calling is happening on both sides. Rather than having a reasoned discourse, it devolves here just like it does most places on the Internet. I've learned my lesson. This forum is great for Magic related topics. Stay away from anything and everything else.
Quote from: Cender on December 14, 2014, 08:27:47 AM
With all due respect, the name calling is happening on both sides.
Show me.
Quote from: ShadowBarbarian on December 14, 2014, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: Piotr on December 14, 2014, 08:38:08 AM
Quote from: Cender on December 14, 2014, 08:27:47 AM
With all due respect, the name calling is happening on both sides.
Show me.
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 04:46:54 PM
You guys are just a bunch of uneducated liberals that don't know how the police force works and don't look past ridiculous arguments like "racism! A white shot a black"
lol look at that Piotr, Taysby is most defiantly not above name calling.
Quote from: ShadowBarbarian on December 14, 2014, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: Piotr on December 14, 2014, 08:38:08 AM
Quote from: Cender on December 14, 2014, 08:27:47 AM
With all due respect, the name calling is happening on both sides.
Show me.
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 04:46:54 PM
You guys are just a bunch of uneducated liberals that don't know how the police force works and don't look past ridiculous arguments like "racism! A white shot a black"
Stop making that dumbass comparison- you
So because of white privelage black teen should be shot, makes sense- Argus
And you are a f-cking idiot for still denying the facts- Argus
Blame the victim, the Taysby way to react to things- Muggy
Tays, shut the hell up you little kid- Infektor
... Some of us are much older and even the younger ones are wiser than you tays. I get it, you're 18 and knows how everything works, but sadly you don't. Wait until your twenties- Infektor
I don't know how to react to this. You're jaded.- you
Taysby lashes out once and you all pounce on him. It's not just these threads either. Nearly every thread that involves some form of debate is Argus or Muggs or someone else just attacking his view. In the first Fergeson thread, Argus even called my argument irrelevant because I used the correct legal terma for 'intent' and 'he did the crime'.
I'm not doing this for Taysby, or even myself, I'm doing this for integrity.
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 14, 2014, 10:11:42 AM
Quote from: ShadowBarbarian on December 14, 2014, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: Piotr on December 14, 2014, 08:38:08 AM
Quote from: Cender on December 14, 2014, 08:27:47 AM
With all due respect, the name calling is happening on both sides.
Show me.
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 04:46:54 PM
You guys are just a bunch of uneducated liberals that don't know how the police force works and don't look past ridiculous arguments like "racism! A white shot a black"
Stop making that dumbass comparison- you
So because of white privelage black teen should be shot, makes sense- Argus
And you are a f-cking idiot for still denying the facts- Argus
Blame the victim, the Taysby way to react to things- Muggy
Tays, shut the hell up you little kid- Infektor
... Some of us are much older and even the younger ones are wiser than you tays. I get it, you're 18 and knows how everything works, but sadly you don't. Wait until your twenties- Infektor
I don't know how to react to this. You're jaded.- you
Taysby lashes out once and you all pounce on him. It's not just these threads either. Nearly every thread that involves some form of debate is Argus or Muggs or someone else just attacking his view. In the first Fergeson thread, Argus even called my argument irrelevant because I used the correct legal terma for 'intent' and 'he did the crime'.
I'm not doing this for Taysby, or even myself, I'm doing this for integrity.
Okay, for once in my life I am actually pissed off. Integrity? INTEGRITY? Calling Agrus a dumbass for, Y'know, USING FACTS? Having a logical argument? You're the only .rearexit. here. If you're going to argue, use facts. Don't say somebody's wrong because of an uninformed opinion. He may be 18. He is still clearly better at arguing than anyone on this forum. He keeps a cool head and actually has responses. You and taysbe lash out at every chance and call him a dumbass without proving your point. If you continue to act this way, just get the hell out.
Quote from: ShadowBarbarian on December 14, 2014, 10:17:59 AM
I'm not debating that myself or anyone else hasn't name-called. Just pointing out that it really is both sides.
To Taysby's credit, he is the only one that apologized.
Agreed, and thank you for backing up my point.
Quote from: Cender on December 14, 2014, 10:57:52 AM
Quote from: ShadowBarbarian on December 14, 2014, 10:17:59 AM
I'm not debating that myself or anyone else hasn't name-called. Just pointing out that it really is both sides.
To Taysby's credit, he is the only one that apologized.
Agreed, and thank you for backing up my point.
Your point is moot. What Mikefrompluto cited was Taysby's response to personal attacks he was a target of. He is perfectly entitled to this sort of response under iMtG Law. If you hurt someone with words, expect to be punished back with words. Logical enough for you?
Quote from: Kaworu, the Fifth Child on December 14, 2014, 10:16:44 AM
Quote from: NovusOrbis on December 14, 2014, 10:11:42 AM
Quote from: ShadowBarbarian on December 14, 2014, 09:13:14 AM
Quote from: Piotr on December 14, 2014, 08:38:08 AM
Quote from: Cender on December 14, 2014, 08:27:47 AM
With all due respect, the name calling is happening on both sides.
Show me.
Quote from: Taysby on December 04, 2014, 04:46:54 PM
You guys are just a bunch of uneducated liberals that don't know how the police force works and don't look past ridiculous arguments like "racism! A white shot a black"
Stop making that dumbass comparison- you
So because of white privelage black teen should be shot, makes sense- Argus
And you are a f-cking idiot for still denying the facts- Argus
Blame the victim, the Taysby way to react to things- Muggy
Tays, shut the hell up you little kid- Infektor
... Some of us are much older and even the younger ones are wiser than you tays. I get it, you're 18 and knows how everything works, but sadly you don't. Wait until your twenties- Infektor
I don't know how to react to this. You're jaded.- you
Taysby lashes out once and you all pounce on him. It's not just these threads either. Nearly every thread that involves some form of debate is Argus or Muggs or someone else just attacking his view. In the first Fergeson thread, Argus even called my argument irrelevant because I used the correct legal terma for 'intent' and 'he did the crime'.
I'm not doing this for Taysby, or even myself, I'm doing this for integrity.
Okay, for once in my life I am actually pissed off. Integrity? INTEGRITY? Calling Agrus a dumbass for, Y'know, USING FACTS? Having a logical argument? You're the only .rearexit. here. If you're going to argue, use facts. Don't say somebody's wrong because of an uninformed opinion. He may be 18. He is still clearly better at arguing than anyone on this forum. He keeps a cool head and actually has responses. You and taysbe lash out at every chance and call him a dumbass without proving your point. If you continue to act this way, just get the hell out.
So I point out how people have been name calling and attacking Taysby and say it should stop, and you call me an ass for it? Whatever you want to do man. I didn't call argus a dumbass and never have since I've been on imtg. When did I try to argue against him about the cop needing punishment? When did I not use facts? How does calling someone an idiot keeping your cool? Show me when I have called him a dumbass and I'll leave this forum for good.
If this was all for that last bit, those were all things that those people said to Taysby, not things I said about them.
In my opinion, the thread has now spiraled into personal debates and accusations. The topic that we started on no longer exists, and therefore I would suggest the thread be locked and removed before we lose any members of the community, or someone does something rash.
Quote from: Piotr on December 14, 2014, 12:04:18 PM
Quote from: Cender on December 14, 2014, 10:57:52 AM
Quote from: ShadowBarbarian on December 14, 2014, 10:17:59 AM
I'm not debating that myself or anyone else hasn't name-called. Just pointing out that it really is both sides.
To Taysby's credit, he is the only one that apologized.
Agreed, and thank you for backing up my point.
Your point is moot. What Mikefrompluto cited was Taysby's response to personal attacks he was a target of. He is perfectly entitled to this sort of response under iMtG Law. If you hurt someone with words, expect to be punished back with words. Logical enough for you?
You act as if I'm somehow attacking you or your ideals. If you feel that way, I apologize. You merely stated that the only name calling was being done by one side and I refuted that position.
I'm simply pointing out that the only way to have any constructive discourse is to argue the merits of the case, and sometimes that means ignoring mudslinging that comes your way. The real tragedy here is that there are clearly people who truly want to have a discussion on the topic, and that's completely being overshadowed by poor sportsmanship.
This is my actual quote, I never called anyone specifically an idiot. Novus is right when he says we need to de-escalate the situation though.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 04, 2014, 09:37:39 PM
At this point its a case of fool me once, shame on you. Fool me tens of thousands of times, and you are a .loving. idiot for still denying the facts.
Quote from: Taysby on December 14, 2014, 01:57:31 PM
We provide facts to back ourselves up but you guys ignore them, and don't even read what we write (it seems like)
This is the main problem here. There are no "facts". You post something from bill orally. Then someone post from Keith olbermann.
Each side has their interpretation of what the laws mean, and can cite stuff to help their argument. With all the gray area in this we can argue for thousands of more pages with no outcome. It becomes a point where I question if we are all insane.
But that's just how I see it. And I could be right or wrong. So have a good day.
I think Rass said it best.
This discussion isn't going to sway any opinions. Some of us see Eric Garner's death as a tragedy as a result of oppression against the lower class by authority. Basic human rights aren't present in a first world country. Among those, some feel the authority needs to discipline it's ranks properly rather let them go easily unpunished as we constantly have seen lately & to cease inappropriate brutality on the every day human being.
Others believe a man who led a life as he did led himself into the situation and as unfortunate as his death is, it was not intentional by the officer in question. Therefore the officer shouldn't be responsible for any wrong doing. Even though his approach to the situation, was completely inappropriate. He should get in trouble, but he doesn't deserve a charge a normal citizen would get. Such as manslaughter. As he was just doing his job.
The media presented is biased either way as it supports an opinion. I'm not going to change my opinion, but using the basic logic in the OP.
I would say the man doing the chokehold is doing wrong and harm. The man selling untaxed cigarettes never asked to be taxed in the first place. I'm psure I've read on this forum "under imtg law, taxes are illegal"
Quote from: Taysby on December 14, 2014, 03:59:49 PM
For the "facts" in question, I was referring to the video. Such as he wouldn't let them arrest him. That's a fact. Also, when I do post something from bill o'reilly or glen beck I do not post it for the opinion section. I post it for the facts like There were x incidents of y last year. There is no disputing things like that. (assuming it wasn't just pulled out of someone's .rearexit..)
Not everything is an attack at you. I just used your last post as an example. I'm sure I can pull up a video where another person was resisting arrest and they didn't choke him. I'm just saying most things people say are "facts" can be spun.
And "facts" from any leftist or rightist sites will be biased towards their stance. Can't take any of those at face value, what could be x number of deaths in a right site, becomes y on a left site. Both are unreliable.
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on December 14, 2014, 05:00:24 PM
I think Rass said it best.
This discussion isn't going to sway any opinions. Some of us see Eric Garner's death as a tragedy as a result of oppression against the lower class by authority. Basic human rights aren't present in a first world country. Among those, some feel the authority needs to discipline it's ranks properly rather let them go easily unpunished as we constantly have seen lately & to cease inappropriate brutality on the every day human being.
Others believe a man who led a life as he did led himself into the situation and as unfortunate as his death is, it was not intentional by the officer in question. Therefore the officer shouldn't be responsible for any wrong doing. Even though his approach to the situation, was completely inappropriate. He should get in trouble, but he doesn't deserve a charge a normal citizen would get. Such as manslaughter. As he was just doing his job.
The media presented is biased either way as it supports an opinion. I'm not going to change my opinion, but using the basic logic in the OP.
I would say the man doing the chokehold is doing wrong and harm. The man selling untaxed cigarettes never asked to be taxed in the first place. I'm psure I've read on this forum "under imtg law, taxes are illegal"
Logic?! omG!!!
< so this is clear, I agree with the reasoning an thought process in the quote. It's just weird seeing logic used on a thread titled "Question of Logic >
it seems logic was thrown out the window with the results of no trial, seeing as there was evidence of wrong doing on part of the officer.
So that's where the question of logic comes in. Was logic used? I don't think so.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 14, 2014, 02:23:39 PM
This is my actual quote, I never called anyone specifically an idiot. Novus is right when he says we need to de-escalate the situation though.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on December 04, 2014, 09:37:39 PM
At this point its a case of fool me once, shame on you. Fool me tens of thousands of times, and you are a .loving. idiot for still denying the facts.
I find this and similar kind of emotional hateful outbursts, especially using swear words, extremely offensive in this Discussion section. You know that, you have been banned for it in the past already, have you not?