Touchy Subjects #3: Atheism (NSFW)

Topic: atheism and society

Should people that are atheists have to hide it from society because of other beliefs? Why or why not?

I'll throw in my opinion on the matter after a few posts.

Absolutely not. I don't think anyone should taper their beliefs just because someone may not agree with it.

I agree, but you must admit people that are openly atheist such as myself are socially frowned upon.

Good point there mike :-)

Personally I frown upon people who are openly loud about any belief they have if it's out of nowhere. It feels like they're doing it for attention. However, if atheism (or whatever else) is applicable to the conversation, then be as loud as you want about it.

Example: I consider myself a Christian, but I don't agree with Christian groups going to public events with signs and such trying to preach to people when it has nothing to do with said event. That's what church is for. Same thing with atheism. If someone walks into public and starts spouting off that there is no God for no reason, I would not be okay with that.

I hope that makes sense.

Personally I frown upon people who are openly loud about any belief they have if it's out of nowhere. It feels like they're doing it for attention. However, if atheism (or whatever else) is applicable to the conversation, then be as loud as you want about it.

Example: I consider myself a Christian, but I don't agree with Christian groups going to public events with signs and such trying to preach to people when it has nothing to do with said event. That's what church is for. Same thing with atheism. If someone walks into public and starts spouting off that there is no God for no reason, I would not be okay with that.

I hope that makes sense.

That's where i draw the line myself as well, i believe what i believe, and i believe you should have the same right.

Anyone who discriminates against some religion is against MY views of equality. I am kind of atheist, because I don't have much opinion. there is a lot of scientific evidence that God doesn't exist, but if he is proven real I'll accept it. I need proof to believe something is real.

The question slenderbro asks is important. I believe it needs to be asked and then turned on its head; Christianity, like atheism, is increasingly looked upon as ignorant and shameful and many Christians are opting to hide, or at least surpress their beliefs.

Neither atheists nor Christians should hold back what they feel is true. It is through open dialogue with an open mind that we grow closer to the truth. That said:

My problem with most atheists is that they claim to know what's true.

My problem with most Christians is that they claim to know what's true.

This supreme hubris kills learning and prevents us from seeking truth. Bring your beliefs to the table and share them as often as you can with anyone who will listen. After that be ready to learn something from the next person. Atheists have helped me challenge my beliefs and come out a stronger Christian. But both me and my athiests need to keep in mind that our beliefs are just that. Beliefs. There is no proof to support or refute either philosophy. There are evidences both ways and you can read them however you choose but do it thoughtfully. Do it passionately. And do it despite the naysayers.

In summary, I think athiests are misunderstanding plenty of evidence of an organized, benevolent, eternal, and involved entity. I call it God. I bet in the hereafter, though, I'll be as surprised as my athiests at what the truth really is.

I don't know of a single atheist who claims to know that god doesn't exist. I think there is a slight bit of confusion. "Atheists" aren't a militant, dogmatic army of non-believers. We simply ask for evidence for a supposed gods existence - if none can be provided (which has yet to be done) we simply move on with our day.

Remember, afterall, you're making the claim of a gods existence: it's not up to me or any other atheist to prove to YOU it doesn't exist. You've got to prove to us what you claim has evidence to support it.

I don't know of a single atheist who claims to know that god doesn't exist. I think there is a slight bit of confusion. "Atheists" aren't a militant, dogmatic army of non-believers. We simply ask for evidence for a supposed gods existence - if none can be provided (which has yet to be done) we simply move on with our day.

Remember, afterall, you're making the claim of a gods existence: it's not up to me or any other atheist to prove to YOU it doesn't exist. You've got to prove to us what you claim has evidence to support it.

This 👆

There are athiests who are only athiests because they want to tell people they suck, some people only become christian or other religions because their "connection with god" makes them better than everyone else in their mind, there are assholes everywhere, and they all have their views on religion, that doesn't mean that athiests and religious people can't respect each others beliefs

Good point Dudecore. I agree. The burden of proof rests on Christians. As I said there is no way to prove atheism or God but I can provide evidence that has convinced me of God's existence.

1. The human tendency toward religion. It is a widespread endeavor of us Homo sapiens to seek God, Yahweh, Vishnu, Allah etc. and to understand ideas that are beyond the observable. I recognize your anarchist tendencies but recognizing the widespread patterns in humanity give a better understanding of how we function and this tendency shows me that there is something the masses are hard wired to seek.

2. Order in the universe. The patterns of mathematics, biology, molecules and galaxies, anatomy, even music indicate that there is a tendency toward order. Absolute chaos (bereft of any pattern) would result were there no driving force behind the universe.  Though chaos is observable, it is part of a larger pattern.

3. Matter. That there is substance to the universe begs the question. Why? It is a philosophical question but it is important. Like the argument against chaos but distinctly separate is this: A void would be the result if there was no source.  Something must have intended it or it wouldn't be.

4. Evolution. I love evolution. It is one if my favorite proofs for God 😃. It is wondrous that any system would grow more complex, more organized, and, I'll make a grammatically weak value judgement here, more better! Whether or not you buy wholesale evolutionary theory, it is irrefutable that species have grown from less to more complex. Humanity is a prime example. We used to kill meat with stone tools and now, we can fly to the friggin MOON! I believe in God because things evolve; they grow better. Something must be behind that.

5. Death. This is the one where I might make a weaker argument by being too esoteric. But for those of you who think this way here I go. Death seems wrong to me (Dudecore, youve dealt with it remarkably well recently). This arguement is informed by my point that observing widespread patterns in humans gives insight into the potential workings of a creator. We dislike death. Along with every other organism, we avoid it at all costs. (Admitedly, here i go into some esoteric reasoning) If something goes against the efforts  of all living things it indicates there is something better that we seek, ie life. It would indicate that perhaps death isn't perfection and (back to the observable) we are evolving toward something better. What is the ultimate outcome of our growth, our evolution? Could it be as Christ indicated life eternal? Poets, artists and storytellers often back me up on this one and say "yes, there's more than just life to life.

6. My experience. All of our stories are different but that doesn't make any story less valid. In my life I know that when I live and strive for something greater than myself, I am happier. When I limit my choices to what is strictly observable and live by cause / effect, I am less happy. Someone on here quoted Lincoln as saying "when I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, i feel bad. This is my whole religion". (I paraphrase). Essentially this points to a force that moves me towards goodness. This indicates a benevolent force outside of me and somewhat outside of the  observable.

These are part of what convince me that that there is a God. Atheists are often the ones who help me most with my Christian questions. Dudecore, I've never taken the time to spell these out so I appreciate you catalyzing this Christian. Kudos.

"Atheists" aren't a militant, dogmatic army of non-believers.

There are plenty who are. Dawkins, for a start.

Quote from: Dudecore on July 18, 2013, 11:26:19 PM

"Atheists" aren't a militant, dogmatic army of non-believers.

There are plenty who are. Dawkins, for a start.

I do not feel that way about Richard Dawkins or his work. I actually feel as though he's one of the few that promote the positive aspects of atheism and secular humanism. He just gets a bad rep sometimes because he appears smug and easy to dismiss.

Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 04:42:38 AM

Quote from: Dudecore on July 18, 2013, 11:26:19 PM

"Atheists" aren't a militant, dogmatic army of non-believers.

There are plenty who are. Dawkins, for a start.

I do not feel that way about Richard Dawkins or his work. I actually feel as though he's one of the few that promote the positive aspects of atheism and secular humanism. He just gets a bad rep sometimes because he appears smug and easy to dismiss.

Based on BJ's retweets of the guy, I see him as someone who prefers to attack religions rather than positively promote atheism. To be fair, I don't remember reading any of his books, so I digress.

I had an elaborate response to Langku, but it got lost while I was citing certain sources. This is the much truncated version.

Good point Dudecore. I agree. The burden of proof rests on Christians. As I said there is no way to prove atheism or God but I can provide evidence that has convinced me of God's existence.

1. The human tendency toward religion. It is a widespread endeavor of us Homo sapiens to seek God, Yahweh, Vishnu, Allah etc. and to understand ideas that are beyond the observable. I recognize your anarchist tendencies but recognizing the widespread patterns in humanity give a better understanding of how we function and this tendency shows me that there is something the masses are hard wired to seek.

Humans value and use many irrational arguments for things they believe to be true. Humans are very superstitious, but that isn't proof for your god (or anyone's god for that matter). Humans are prone to selection bias, confirmation bias, déjà vu and other suspect brain activity. Does not mean that we should follow these intuitions.

2. Order in the universe. The patterns of mathematics, biology, molecules and galaxies, anatomy, even music indicate that there is a tendency toward order. Absolute chaos (bereft of any pattern) would result were there no driving force behind the universe.  Though chaos is observable, it is part of a larger pattern.

How do we know this? That the universe has order and isn't occasionally chaotic? Why because certain constant forces measurable, that is proof that something gave it order? Also, what does that tell us about the existence of a deity?

3. Matter. That there is substance to the universe begs the question. Why? It is a philosophical question but it is important. Like the argument against chaos but distinctly separate is this: A void would be the result if there was no source.  Something must have intended it or it wouldn't be.

I don't exactly understand this conclusion based on the premise. It is unclear what this is saying.

4. Evolution. I love evolution. It is one if my favorite proofs for God 😃. It is wondrous that any system would grow more complex, more organized, and, I'll make a grammatically weak value judgement here, more better! Whether or not you buy wholesale evolutionary theory, it is irrefutable that species have grown from less to more complex. Humanity is a prime example. We used to kill meat with stone tools and now, we can fly to the friggin MOON! I believe in God because things evolve; they grow better. Something must be behind that.

Evolution says absolutely nothing about our ability to create and use Techbology. Things don't become "more complex" as they evolve or more organized. I believe this is an equivocation error. Evolution has multiple meanings: Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. The other is used to discribe progression from one point to another. The equivocation is misrepresenting what biologist mean by the word "evolution".

5. Death. This is the one where I might make a weaker argument by being too esoteric. But for those of you who think this way here I go. Death seems wrong to me (Dudecore, youve dealt with it remarkably well recently). This arguement is informed by my point that observing widespread patterns in humans gives insight into the potential workings of a creator. We dislike death. Along with every other organism, we avoid it at all costs. (Admitedly, here i go into some esoteric reasoning) If something goes against the efforts  of all living things it indicates there is something better that we seek, ie life. It would indicate that perhaps death isn't perfection and (back to the observable) we are evolving toward something better. What is the ultimate outcome of our growth, our evolution? Could it be as Christ indicated life eternal? Poets, artists and storytellers often back me up on this one and say "yes, there's more than just life to life.

Death is inevitable. Everyone must face it. I don't believe it to be a case for the divine. We, like everything else, eventually die. We're not special in that regard, it makes us just like every other organism on the planet. Just another collection of cells that will die and decay.

6. My experience. All of our stories are different but that doesn't make any story less valid. In my life I know that when I live and strive for something greater than myself, I am happier. When I limit my choices to what is strictly observable and live by cause / effect, I am less happy. Someone on here quoted Lincoln as saying "when I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, i feel bad. This is my whole religion". (I paraphrase). Essentially this points to a force that moves me towards goodness. This indicates a benevolent force outside of me and somewhat outside of the  observable.

These are part of what convince me that that there is a God. Atheists are often the ones who help me most with my Christian questions. Dudecore, I've never taken the time to spell these out so I appreciate you catalyzing this Christian. Kudos.

Can't argue experience. I can argue that I do not see any "good reason" - with respect to evidence, philosophy, scientific method and logic to be a believer in a higher power. It doesn't make a bit of sense to me. I've debated this topic to great lengths since I was 14.

Dudecore,
 
Your responses, like i hope that mine do, indicate a depth of thought that is hard to convey in an online forum. Thanks for taking the time to consider my points. Like any any good debate I offer a final rebuttal:

Humans value and use many irrational arguments for things they believe to be true. Humans are very superstitious, but that isn't proof for your god (or anyone's god for that matter). Humans are prone to selection bias, confirmation bias, déjà vu and other suspect brain activity. Does not mean that we should follow these intuitions.

Well stated. However, suspect does not imply unimportant. All functions of the mind, like functions of any other body part, serve some purpose or reveal some insight into what we are. Even a vestigial tail or tonsil gives us an indication of where we might have been. When a brain function defies reason it challenges us to ask why such a function exists. In this case the overwhelming majority of human minds have tended toward belief in a higher entity and that gives pause for consideration.


How do we know this? That the universe has order and isn't occasionally chaotic? Why because certain constant forces measurable, that is proof that something gave it order? Also, what does that tell us about the existence of a deity?

Good questions. Science is built upon the premise of reproducible events & reactions, not an expectation of chaos. Cause and effect are fairly stable and when they are not the resulting product always gives rise to a previously unknown pattern. As for proof of something giving it order the word proof can't factor into a discussion that is theoretical. So no, it does not prove. But order suggests that there is an ordered guide or force in or universe.

I don't exactly understand this conclusion based on the premise. It is unclear what this is saying.

I understand your confusion on this point. I struggled to articulate this one and it shows. But simply put, given nothing nothing should exist. Mathematically speaking there must be a non 0 variable in a equation in order for there to be a result other than 0. I think we can both accept that matter has probably always been, but why does it exist? It's the old argument that nothing is the result of nothing & something is the result if something. How does something exist? Whatever the explanation is, I call it an ordered entity.

Evolution says absolutely nothing about our ability to create and use Techbology. Things don't become "more complex" as they evolve or more organized. I believe this is an equivocation error. Evolution has multiple meanings: Evolution is the change in the inherited characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. The other is used to discribe progression from one point to another. The equivocation is misrepresenting what biologist mean by the word "evolution".

We are im the same page here. This is why I did not use the terms adaptation or natural selection. Those imply change, not growth. The term evolution is a maligned word and far too often misused. I use it here in the literal context. The tendency to grow from less to more complex. Again, whether in the micro evolutionary anthropologic scale with human technology, or the biological and macroevolutionary scale with organisms growing from simple to complex, evolution suggests a force outside of the tendency in our universe toward homeostasis. This suggests, again, an ordered and improving force in the universe.

Death is inevitable. Everyone must face it. I don't believe it to be a case for the divine. We, like everything else, eventually die. We're not special in that regard, it makes us just like every other organism on the planet. Just another collection of cells that will die and decay.

For the most part I agree. Due to the abstract nature if this line of reason I think that my rhetoric in the last section disguised some of my intent. Humans are certainly not unique in their aversion to death. That ALL living organisms strive against it indicates it is not, perhaps, all that life was destined for. As e.e. cummings stated life is not a paragraph and death I think is no parenthesis 😀. Given the struggle to survive it would seem all life is inherently seeking more than an inevitable death.

And her I think it appropriate to add that since we all dabble in fantasy card games where the hereafter figures significantly there is a uniquely human proclivity for this line of reasoning 😉.

Can't argue experience. I can argue that I do not see any "good reason" - with respect to evidence, philosophy, scientific method and logic to be a believer in a higher power. It doesn't make a bit of sense to me. I've debated this topic to great lengths since I was 14.

I agree. Our experiences have led us to two different views and mutually exploring these views will hopefully help us challenge our assumptions and "evolve". I have given no proof but I hope you will consider some of my "reasons ... good". Certainly yours have informed my understanding.