Vapor snag

Started by Noblellama, June 07, 2015, 01:40:48 AM

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Noblellama

if my opponent {Vapor Snag}S me creature and I give it hexproof, do I still loose life?

Remillo

It'll be an illegal target.  Because all targets of the spell are illegal, it will fizzle and none of its effects will happen.

Oldschoolmtgnoob

So this is not one of those cases where the spell resolves as much as it can?

Remillo

Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on June 07, 2015, 02:31:36 AM
So this is not one of those cases where the spell resolves as much as it can?

That's only if there are still legal targets.

InfinitiveDivinity


Remillo

608.2b If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. However, if any of its targets are illegal, the part of the spell or ability's effect for which it is an illegal target can't perform any actions on that target, make another object or player perform any actions on that target, or make that target perform any actions. If the spell or ability creates a continuous effect that affects game rules (see rule 613.10), that effect doesn't apply to illegal targets. The effect may still determine information about illegal targets, though, and other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them.
Example: Sorin's Thirst is a black instant that reads, "Sorin's Thirst deals 2 damage to target creature and you gain 2 life." If the creature isn't a legal target during the resolution of Sorin's Thirst (say, if the creature has gained protection from black or left the battlefield), then Sorin's Thirst is countered. Its controller doesn't gain any life.

TL:DR:
If every target of a spell or ability is illegal on resolution, it is countered and NONE of its effects will happen.  The example given in the comp rules could easily replace Sorin's Thirst with Vapor Snag (Or {Cryptic Command} with modes being "Bounce, Draw")

redwolv

Quote from: Noblellama on June 07, 2015, 04:34:09 PM
He argues that since there is a period then they are two separate clauses.

I'm with you but this guy ain't buying it...

But there basicly there is no creature targeted as the spell resolves, and you need the creature to reference who is it's controller is.

Remillo

Quote from: Noblellama on June 07, 2015, 04:34:09 PM
He argues that since there is a period then they are two separate clauses.

I'm with you but this guy ain't buying it...

If he still doesn't buy it, have him ask on the Judge IRC (chat.magicjudges.com) and he'll receive exactly the same answer.  It's just basic magic: If all targets are illegal, it's countered upon resolution.

Redrighthand

Part of the key to this puzzle is that the sentence after the period refers to the targeted creature in the sentence before the period. "IT'S controller loses one life".  The creature is no longer able to be targeted due to the hexproof and so there is no "It" anymore.

Remillo

Quote from: Redrighthand on June 07, 2015, 09:56:52 PM
Part of the key to this puzzle is that the sentence after the period refers to the targeted creature in the sentence before the period. "IT'S controller loses one life".  The creature is no longer able to be targeted due to the hexproof and so there is no "It" anymore.

It's not even that.  It just a fundamental of magic: If all targets are no longer legal, the spell or ability does nothing.

InfinitiveDivinity

Quote from: Remillo on June 07, 2015, 10:35:03 PM
Quote from: Redrighthand on June 07, 2015, 09:56:52 PM
Part of the key to this puzzle is that the sentence after the period refers to the targeted creature in the sentence before the period. "IT'S controller loses one life".  The creature is no longer able to be targeted due to the hexproof and so there is no "It" anymore.

It's not even that.  It just a fundamental of magic: If all targets are no longer legal, the spell or ability does nothing.
This isn't the case for {Remand} though. You can still attempt to counter an uncounterable spell (Through let's say {Cavern of Souls}), and draw a card. Why does it work in that case?

Remillo

Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on June 07, 2015, 10:40:47 PM
Quote from: Remillo on June 07, 2015, 10:35:03 PM
Quote from: Redrighthand on June 07, 2015, 09:56:52 PM
Part of the key to this puzzle is that the sentence after the period refers to the targeted creature in the sentence before the period. "IT'S controller loses one life".  The creature is no longer able to be targeted due to the hexproof and so there is no "It" anymore.

It's not even that.  It just a fundamental of magic: If all targets are no longer legal, the spell or ability does nothing.
This isn't the case for {Remand} though. You can still attempt to counter an uncounterable spell (Through let's say {Cavern of Souls}), and draw a card. Why does it work in that case?

Because not being counter able does not make it an illegal target.  Think of it like you're trying to Doom Blade an Indestructible creature.  It's still a perfectly valid target and it attempts to destroy it.  It just does nothing, as it can't be destroyed.  The same is true for Uncounterable spells and counter spells.  Remand will "counter" the spell, which doesn't do anything, then you draw a card for Remand, because Remand resolved normally.

Codester1991

Quote from: Remillo on June 07, 2015, 10:50:21 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on June 07, 2015, 10:40:47 PM
Quote from: Remillo on June 07, 2015, 10:35:03 PM
Quote from: Redrighthand on June 07, 2015, 09:56:52 PM
Part of the key to this puzzle is that the sentence after the period refers to the targeted creature in the sentence before the period. "IT'S controller loses one life".  The creature is no longer able to be targeted due to the hexproof and so there is no "It" anymore.

It's not even that.  It just a fundamental of magic: If all targets are no longer legal, the spell or ability does nothing.
This isn't the case for {Remand} though. You can still attempt to counter an uncounterable spell (Through let's say {Cavern of Souls}), and draw a card. Why does it work in that case?

Because not being counter able does not make it an illegal target.  Think of it like you're trying to Doom Blade an Indestructible creature.  It's still a perfectly valid target and it attempts to destroy it.  It just does nothing, as it can't be destroyed.  The same is true for Uncounterable spells and counter spells.  Remand will "counter" the spell, which doesn't do anything, then you draw a card for Remand, because Remand resolved normally.

I was confused at a pptq I got 4th in a while back, lost to bloom Titan with hive mind, basically I cast loxodon smiter(uncounterable) and he pact of negation'ed it so loxy still resolved but I had to pay the 5 at my next upkeep and lost

Remillo

Quote from: Codester1991 on June 07, 2015, 11:59:19 PM
Quote from: Remillo on June 07, 2015, 10:50:21 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on June 07, 2015, 10:40:47 PM
Quote from: Remillo on June 07, 2015, 10:35:03 PM
Quote from: Redrighthand on June 07, 2015, 09:56:52 PM
Part of the key to this puzzle is that the sentence after the period refers to the targeted creature in the sentence before the period. "IT'S controller loses one life".  The creature is no longer able to be targeted due to the hexproof and so there is no "It" anymore.

It's not even that.  It just a fundamental of magic: If all targets are no longer legal, the spell or ability does nothing.
This isn't the case for {Remand} though. You can still attempt to counter an uncounterable spell (Through let's say {Cavern of Souls}), and draw a card. Why does it work in that case?

Because not being counter able does not make it an illegal target.  Think of it like you're trying to Doom Blade an Indestructible creature.  It's still a perfectly valid target and it attempts to destroy it.  It just does nothing, as it can't be destroyed.  The same is true for Uncounterable spells and counter spells.  Remand will "counter" the spell, which doesn't do anything, then you draw a card for Remand, because Remand resolved normally.

I was confused at a pptq I got 4th in a while back, lost to bloom Titan with hive mind, basically I cast loxodon smiter(uncounterable) and he pact of negation'ed it so loxy still resolved but I had to pay the 5 at my next upkeep and lost

It's the exact same interaction.  Counter spells can still target Uncounterable spells, they just wont counter it when they resolve.