Cool rulings

[particle]

I got a few puzzles for you gurus to {ponder}. Alright. One of these has an answer on gatherer and one of these does not. So what happens when you {act of treason} your opponents {jeskai infiltrator} and connect with it? Next, if you {act of treason} your opponents {epochrosite} and then it dies under your control, who will control it when it comes off suspend?
Enjoy

[Nfidel2k]

I'll take first crack...

1. So the Jeskai infiltrator would still trigger it's on hit ability and you would manifest a card.  The only change is that your opponent knows which was the original infiltrator and which is the new manifest.  You can look at them face down under your control, but you can't hide from the owner. 

2. The epochrasite would come off suspend under your control.

[particle]

1/2 ain't bad. Good job nfidel2k.

[redwolv]

The  {Jeskai Infiltrator} is no longer the original as it has been exiled then manafested. So you keep it.

[mickeven]

yeah you keep both. This was explained to me when I asked about  {Act of Treason}ing an opponents creature then sac'ing it for  {Rescue from the Underworld} to get another creature back from the graveyard. Once both return from exile they return under your control.

[InfinitiveDivinity]

yeah you keep both. This was explained to me when I asked about  {Act of Treason}ing an opponents creature then sac'ing it for  {Rescue from the Underworld} to get another creature back from the graveyard. Once both return from exile they return under your control.

Hopefully you and your opponent are using the same sleeves 😉

[particle]

So, Nfidel was right about {jeskai infiltrator} and wrong about {epochrasite}. The ruling for jeskai infiltrator is from gatherer.
11/24/2014   A card's owner is public information at all times. If the two cards you exile are owned by different players (perhaps because you gained control of a Jeskai Infiltrator owned by your opponent), which card is which is no longer hidden from your opponent. That player will know which face-down creature he or she owns.


So the non owner of infiltrator will shuffle it with the top card and manifest both. But since the owner gets to know which is his, it won't really randomize them. And likely sleeves will be different anyway.

Ok onto {epochrosite}.

yeah you keep both. This was explained to me when I asked about  {Act of Treason}ing an opponents creature then sac'ing it for  {Rescue from the Underworld} to get another creature back from the graveyard. Once both return from exile they return under your control.

This would be true if we were talking about the graveyard. However, in exile, nothing has a controller, only an owner. So {epochrosite} will have time counters removed during its owners upkeep and will come off suspend under its owners control. Apparently Level 4s had to discuss this one for a long time before coming up with the answer at GP Vegas last year for modern masters.

[Kaylesh]

yeah you keep both. This was explained to me when I asked about  {Act of Treason}ing an opponents creature then sac'ing it for  {Rescue from the Underworld} to get another creature back from the graveyard. Once both return from exile they return under your control.

Hopefully you and your opponent are using the same sleeves 😉

If not I do believe you'd have to unsleeve or resleeve them. Your opponent should not know the difference.

EDIT: seems I was wrong on this one, see the post above.

[Nfidel2k]

Nice one particle . I was wondering what i missed - that's good to know about owners only.  I guess the battlefield is the only shared zone that allows "controllers".

[particle]

Nice one particle . I was wondering what i missed - that's good to know about owners only.  I guess the battlefield is the only shared zone that allows "controllers".

Right since your not controlling anything unless it's on the field.

[mickeven]

So, Nfidel was right about {jeskai infiltrator} and wrong about {epochrasite}. The ruling for jeskai infiltrator is from gatherer.
11/24/2014   A card's owner is public information at all times. If the two cards you exile are owned by different players (perhaps because you gained control of a Jeskai Infiltrator owned by your opponent), which card is which is no longer hidden from your opponent. That player will know which face-down creature he or she owns.


So the non owner of infiltrator will shuffle it with the top card and manifest both. But since the owner gets to know which is his, it won't really randomize them. And likely sleeves will be different anyway.

Ok onto {epochrosite}.

yeah you keep both. This was explained to me when I asked about  {Act of Treason}ing an opponents creature then sac'ing it for  {Rescue from the Underworld} to get another creature back from the graveyard. Once both return from exile they return under your control.

This would be true if we were talking about the graveyard. However, in exile, nothing has a controller, only an owner. So {epochrosite} will have time counters removed during its owners upkeep and will come off suspend under its owners control. Apparently Level 4s had to discuss this one for a long time before coming up with the answer at GP Vegas last year for modern masters.

i understand what you are saying about {epochrosite} but {Rescue from the Underworld} says "return that card and the sacrificed card to the battlefield under your control".

[Nfidel2k]

So, Nfidel was right about {jeskai infiltrator} and wrong about {epochrasite}. The ruling for jeskai infiltrator is from gatherer.
11/24/2014   A card's owner is public information at all times. If the two cards you exile are owned by different players (perhaps because you gained control of a Jeskai Infiltrator owned by your opponent), which card is which is no longer hidden from your opponent. That player will know which face-down creature he or she owns.


So the non owner of infiltrator will shuffle it with the top card and manifest both. But since the owner gets to know which is his, it won't really randomize them. And likely sleeves will be different anyway.

Ok onto {epochrosite}.

yeah you keep both. This was explained to me when I asked about  {Act of Treason}ing an opponents creature then sac'ing it for  {Rescue from the Underworld} to get another creature back from the graveyard. Once both return from exile they return under your control.

This would be true if we were talking about the graveyard. However, in exile, nothing has a controller, only an owner. So {epochrosite} will have time counters removed during its owners upkeep and will come off suspend under its owners control. Apparently Level 4s had to discuss this one for a long time before coming up with the answer at GP Vegas last year for modern masters.

i understand what you are saying about {epochrosite} but {Rescue from the Underworld} says "return that card and the sacrificed card to the battlefield under your control".

Yeah, that's also why Jeskai infiltrator still works.  But the original enigma didn't include rescue from the underworld, and epochrasite basically just gains suspend.

[mickeven]

very true. you got it