Disenchant

Started by Vindog, November 11, 2014, 05:12:54 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Vindog

Is there a red disenchant?

DrainCleaner

Quote from: Vindog on November 11, 2014, 05:12:54 PM
Is there a red disenchant?
One of red's major weaknesses is its inability to deal with enchantments.

Gorzo

 {Decimate}
{Destructive Revelry}
{Duergar Hedge-Mage}
{Hull Breach}
{Polis Crusher}
{Priest of Iroas}
{Thunderscape Battlemage}

That's it. As you can see, none of them are mono-red, and most are green, the remainder being white.

It's the color pie - red simply can't handle enchantments, but green and white and great at it.

The1337Magician

Why is {Hull Breach} not worded:
Destroy target artifact and/or enchantment.
It seems overcomplicated.

Dudecore

#4
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.

Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.

Langku

#5
Quote from: Dudecore on November 11, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.

Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.

How'd Maro let that turd slip through?

EDIT: And in the same vein I think half the Planar Chaos set should have been silver bordered.

rarehuntertay

Quote from: Langku on November 11, 2014, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on November 11, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.

Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.

How'd Maro let that turd slip through?
Seems to fit the color pie perfectly to me. Chaotic removal. It's passionate, unpredictable, get out of the way but I don't care who's next!! It's a stretch, but fits. Just like blue direct damage. But that's my opinion

Dudecore

#7
Quote from: rarehuntertay on November 11, 2014, 09:06:35 PM
Quote from: Langku on November 11, 2014, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on November 11, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.

Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.

How'd Maro let that turd slip through?
Seems to fit the color pie perfectly to me. Chaotic removal. It's passionate, unpredictable, get out of the way but I don't care who's next!! It's a stretch, but fits. Just like blue direct damage. But that's my opinion

Flavor does not best the color pie. Red cannot deal with enchantments, any flavor can be used to justify anything. Doesn't make it right. Chaotic removal or not, needs to say "target non-enchantment".

Quote from: Langku on November 11, 2014, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on November 11, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.

Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.

How'd Maro let that turd slip through?

EDIT: And in the same vein I think half the Planar Chaos set should have been silver bordered.

He didnt. It was put in the 1st Commander product, he didn't design it. He would never design anything as determental to the color pie as {Chaos Warp}

They pushed the color pie limits with Planar Chaos, but most players didn't understand that. They use those cards as examples and ask "when will X be able to do X again?"

Dudecore

Those cards are examples of the color pie being broken, and should not be used to justify future violations. If Magic wants to make it to "a few years from now" they have to be mindful of that wheel. Once colors are able to do everything, the game ceases to function properly and is broken. Horent Queen is better, because green can have fliers, but very uncommon and at a high CMC.

Red not being able to deal with enchantments, black artifacts, white doesn't draw cards, green can't destroy creatures and blue can't really do anything to permanents once they're on the field. All of these rules have been violated at one point and it makes the game worse.

Kaylesh

#9
Disagree on blue not being able to do anything to perms on field. {boomerang} for reference. Has been around since legends. I'd say that's pretty solid.
Blue does rely on card draw, counters and bounce, with big seamonsters and flyers historically.

Dudecore

Blue is the most color pie breaking color in the game. It has been struggling to find it's exact piece of the pie since Alpha. It has stabilized over the years.

Yes, blue can bounce. But that doesn't exactly "deal" with permanents in a significant way. Blue gets a lot it crap for being busted, and rightfully so, but it you ever want to see why the color pie is important - look at Legacy. It is a shining tribute to the broken color pie ({Red Elemental Blast}/{Pyroblast} anyone?)

Rass

Quote from: Dudecore on November 16, 2014, 06:59:34 AM
look at Legacy. It is a shining tribute to the broken color pie ({Red Elemental Blast}/{Pyroblast} anyone?)

Yes but it seemed that certin colors hate each other and can be used against only that color. This really limits the card. Look at  {Deathgrip} And I think there was a green one too that was against black.  {Lifeforce}

particle


Dudecore

Quote from: Noblellama on November 16, 2014, 10:20:25 AM
Quote from: particle on November 16, 2014, 10:19:06 AM
{rabid hybridization} ;)

To quote 3/4 of our local card shop players
F¥€£ Gatecrash

{Pongify}. Blue can transmute creatures, it shouldn't destroy them. There has been some conversation in R&D (according to MaRo) that those polymorph cards SHOULD either exile or shuffle the creature into your library. Again, mistakes happen, they're bad for the health of the game. EDH is also a format filled with {Beast Within} and other color pie violaters because, guess what, they help you not leave 1 color to answer all of your problems. It's not good for the game, and {Chaos Warp} and {Song of the Dryads} are bad for the long term health of the game.

Dudecore

#14
Well it is only legal in Legacy, Vintage and EDH. I can't help but feel like you're intentionally missing the point or playing devils advocate. Color pie violations open the door for removing the checks and balances the colors have. Flavor justification is dangerous because it can allow any and everything to happen. Players shouldn't WANT cards like {Song of the Dryads} and {Chaos Warp} to exist because it cheapens the way the game is played and what the colors mean. While it may immediately seem like "Oh awesome, I have this powerful cards now!" it's bad. {Path to Exile} and {Sword to Plowshares} are iconic cards that are color pie violations. White is the color of "answers", but it's answers have answers. You don't see a deck running white without either of those cards happily mashed in. Now we're in the position we're in where white has the best, most efficient, most effective removal in the game.