Primal Surge and Purphoros, God of the Forge

[Daxos]

so... setup example:

I cast Primal Surge and reveal 40 creatures one by one from the top of my library and I stop. Purphoros, God of the Forge was the 10th card revealed, with 30 additional creatures revealed after that (adding up to 40 as just mentioned).

Does Purphoros ability...

deal 60 damage to each oponent? or
deal 80 damage to each opponent? or
deal no damage at all? or
something else?

From card rulings and a search on this forum I gather one must think that upon the Primal Surge resolution, "they all enter at the same time"... so, if they're all ETB at the same time, what's the correct way that Purphoros "sees"?

[Daxos]

i thought card tag links where automatic if i had known how to link i'd done it, as instructed by readme. sorry.

[Nymuera]

so... setup example:

I cast {Primal Surge} and reveal 40 creatures one by one from the top of my library and I stop. {Purphoros, God of the Forge} was the 10th card revealed, with 30 additional creatures revealed after that (adding up to 40 as just mentioned).

Does Purphoros ability...

deal 60 damage to each oponent? or
deal 80 damage to each opponent? or
deal no damage at all? or
something else?

From card rulings and a search on this forum I gather one must think that upon the Primal Surge resolution, "they all enter at the same time"... so, if they're all ETB at the same time, what's the correct way that Purphoros "sees"?

Links added

[Daxos]

yay thanks

[Millionlittlee]

Your god does 60 if they are all creatures because surge say that it enters the battle field then repeats so the other cards before he enters doesn't make him trigger. Also he does trigger/resolve his ability till after surge resolves

[Wingnut]

I hate to disagree and if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me. But I read the card as they all enter seperately. It says you may put the permanent onto the battlefield. If you do (as in put it on the battlefield) you may repeat this process. I feel that the permanent has to hit the battlefield before you dig for the next card. I'm gonna say no. But again, if there's a good explanation as to why I'm wrong, please feel welcome.

[particle]

I hate to disagree and if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me. But I read the card as they all enter seperately. It says you may put the permanent onto the battlefield. If you do (as in put it on the battlefield) you may repeat this process. I feel that the permanent has to hit the battlefield before you dig for the next card. I'm gonna say no. But again, if there's a good explanation as to why I'm wrong, please feel welcome.

so even though they are seperate actions, they all happen during the resolution of one spell. so nothing can trigger until the entire spell is finished resolving, since things cant trigger mid-resolution. once primal surge has resolved, purph will see all this stuff entering, since it entered during the same spell's resolution, so effectively at the same time.

[Daxos]

so after reading your discussions here's what I think: it seems as though Primal Surge is worded such that the permanents have to be thought of as "they have definitely entered the battlefield" . The twist is that all of each creature's respective "enters the battlefield" abilities have to be postponed until Primal Surge itself (sorcery) is fully resolved. Then as per the ruling, starting with the active player (me, who played Primal Surge and then made 40 creatures enter the battlefield) may chose to place other spells and effects on the stack as they see fit.

"5/1/2012   If putting any of those permanent cards onto the battlefield causes abilities to trigger, those abilities will wait to go on the stack until Primal Surge has finished resolving. Starting with the active player, each player puts his or her abilities on the stack in any order."

As such, it seems in order to place the 2 damage on the stack, Purphy's ability has to have been triggered in the first place: so he will only see the 30 creatures entering the battlefield after it.

But Purphy's 2 damage ability won't be the only thing on the stack, as say a [tag] Bronzebeak Moa [/tag] will also want to gain +117/+117 (39 x +3/+3) if she was the first card revealed and ETB with the Primal Surge. WhatI now think I understand about the ruling is that I will need to choose the order of all those resolutions as I best see fit, although they would already have to have been triggered (and remembered by players in a "don't care about the order" pseudo stack).  So in this particular case I'd probably choose to deal the 60 damage first and if anyone survives (it's possible) then sort through all the other effects triggered - again choosing their most convenient order of resolution.   THAT IS QUITE POWERFUL!

My only headscratcher in this scenario still is the part about OTHER PLAYERS putting stuff in the stack after Primal Resolution.  I mean it would seem like they just cast stuff (or their own "another creature enters the battlefield") and it resolves firstly, before all my abilitites.  Does that mean that if they see me reveal and put an Eldrazi on the battlefield they can legally wait for the whole circus and finally cast a Counterspell and declare "I counter your Eldrazi" and then my Eldrazi is countered and it doesn't even enter the battlefield and Purphoros doesn't even see it?? That seems so counter intuitive!

Upon second reading of that ruling, it seems to only mention Enters The Battlefield Abilities, so it seems that the creatures themselves enter the battlefield, implying they can't be countered. They are already there, besides, what put them there is not a creature casting "summon" spell, but the effects of another sorcery (Primal Surge). Also this means that abilities that check if the creature is being casted from your hand won't trigger.  Am I right in this interpretations? does this all mean that your creatures become uncounterable in practice? wow.

That's a lot to take in.
I'll be checking back,
and thanks for giving this a few of your brain cpu mental cycles.

[Pleeb]

Ok, let's give this one a go.

During the resolution of primal surge, abilities will trigger, but they don't actually go on the stack until a player receives priority. In this case, there are a lot of ETB effects that trigger and wait. Once primal surge finishes resolving and hits the GY, everyone puts their triggered abilities on the stack in ap/nap order. You've already said as much, but I want to provide some context and it also helps me keep my thoughts in line.

You choose the order you put them on the stack, and once chosen the order cannot be changed. Also note that you can mix and match the order, like put 3 purphy triggers, then 4 bronze beak triggers then another 5 purphy triggers etc. purphy won't get 1 trigger on the stack doing 60 damage, he'll get 30 triggers on the stack doing 2 damage each (important for {stifle} effects).
The ruling mentions opponents placing objects on the stack because they may have ETB triggers also.

Creatures entering the bf this way can't be countered or responded to because they don't use the stack when entering. You are also correct that they aren't being cast and so won't trigger abilities that look for spells being cast.

I think I hit all the areas you were confused about in your last post. Let me know if I missed one.

[Pleeb]

That they do. iPhones aren't the best way to write novels.

[Avodroc13]

Tl;dr... I love iPhones.

[Avodroc13]

iPads are only marginally better

Not entirely, can't walk and jam unless you have enormous pockets. :p

[griffin131]

Backpack and Bluetooth headphones :-)

[Avodroc13]

This guy^ lol

[Daxos]

haha thanks guys i am new here and already love it.
yea i think we are pretty much in agreement.... it seems a counterspell better counter the Primal Surge itself or have to deal with all the creatures after they are already in the battlefield, in other words do nothing since at that point counterspell can't do squat about creatures already in play (as they all are).

I plan on putting into play Gilt-Leaf Archdruid this way with a bunch of his druid buddies, so that after Primal Surge is done I can immediately take control of all target opponent's lands.  I may need new friends after that.

anyway thanks for the brainstorming shelf this ome. let it be of help for anyone else trying to pull this off among their friends.