Worldspine wurm

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

In a casual multiplayer game my worldspine wurm was destroyed by a doom blade and before the doom blade resolved another player targeted the worldspine wurm with adarkar valkyrie's ability. An argument ensued as my opponent was adamant that he should get control of the worldspine wurm and I was adamant that it gets shuffled into my library. We couldn't find a ruling and my reasoning was that even though the valkyrie's ability can be used to interrupt the wurm's, the wurm's ability still resolves. Can anyone help???

[Steerpike]

{Worldspine Worm}
{Doomblade}
{Adarkar Valkyrie}

[Spikepit]

My default with these is to look at logics of the words on the cards when a clear ruling can't be reached. So Worldspine says when it enters the graveyard, the Angel says when it dies. I would say her ability takes precedence as the dying happens the zone change.

That's just how I would lay out the ruling with and actual ruling.

[Gorzo]

Well, "enters the graveyard from the battlefield" and "dies" are the exact same thing. And they aren't replacement effects either (like {Leyline of the void} that replace going to the grave with something else). They are both triggers that occur when the card hits the grave.

I want to say that this situation would cause the triggers to go on the stack in AP-NAP order, meaning the trigger that resolves first will depend on whose turn it is.

But I'm not 100% sure. Let me do a little digging and get a ruling on this for you.

Edit: yup, it's an AP-NAP situation. Both are definitely triggered abilities, and...
603.3b: If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player received priority, each player, in APNAP order, puts triggered abilities he or she controls on the stack in any order he or she chooses. (See rule 101.4.) Then the game once again checks for and resolves state-based actions until none are performed, then abilities that triggered during this process go on the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based actions are performed and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets priority.

[Sardok]

If it's your turn, APNAP means the valkyrie's ability resolves first because it is on top of the wurm's trigger on the stack. Therefore, your opponent gains control of it.

If it's not your turn however, APNAP means the wurm shuffles back in first.

Edit: If it's not your turn your position on the APNAP order would matter i.e. If the opponent whose valkyrie it is goes before (shuffle) or after you (lose control). This is for multiplayer only; duels follow the above result.

[Wally]

As above. Also it would seem that you would still get the three 5/5 tokens regardless of when the trigger resolved, as that doesn't require for the wurm to be in the graveyard for it to happen, just that it went there at some stage.

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

That makes sense. My logic may be letting me down here, but wouldn't that mean that it ends up shuffled into my library regardless? If the Valkyrie's ability resolves first, wouldn't the wurm's ability still resolve after? So the opponent does indeed gain control, but then as soon as priority is passed it gets shuffled into my library (regardless of who has control of it?). And if the wurm's ability resolves first it gets shuffled in, and the valkyrie's ability no longer has a valid target so it just 'fizzles out' (for lack of a better term)? Or would the act of taking it from my graveyard to put into the opponents battlefield mean it changes zones therefore the wurm's ability can no longer target it? I hadn't even considered that possibility. I hope I haven't confused everyone :s

[Mr_Fahrenheit]

By the way thank you steerspike for linking the cards in my original post. I was so busy trying to word it right i completely forgot to do it!

[Moocow4u2]

Are you sure dying and entering the graveyard are the same thing? Seems more logical to me that they'd have to die first to Be able to enter that graveyard O.o I'd assume the valkerie's ability would happen before the worm's

[particle]

what used to be "when this creature enters the graveyard from play/the battlefield" has been shorterned officialy to "when this creature dies". They chose to update oracle to make it shorter, but they are the same.

[rarehuntertay]

Now what happens in a multi player game... when both triggers happen but neither triggers are caused by an active player?

[Pleeb]

My interpretation of events:  angle resolves first and worm enters the bf under your opponents control then worm effect resolves and he gets shuffled into your lib.

Worm resolves first and gets shuffled into the library, then angel resolves and pulls it into the bf under your opponents control. The angel targets the creature, but as soon as it triggers it no longer needs a target. It just pulls the card into the bf from whatever zone it exists in (even exile).

You get the token creatures in either scenario.

[Steerpike]

By the way thank you steerspike for linking the cards in my original post. I was so busy trying to word it right i completely forgot to do it!

No problem!

[Sardok]

My interpretation of events:  angle resolves first and worm enters the bf under your opponents control then worm effect resolves and he gets shuffled into your lib.

Worm resolves first and gets shuffled into the library, then angel resolves and pulls it into the bf under your opponents control. The angel targets the creature, but as soon as it triggers it no longer needs a target. It just pulls the card into the bf from whatever zone it exists in (even exile).

You get the token creatures in either scenario.

It doesn't work like that.

A card that changes zones has no memory of its previous self. So in this example, both abilities trigger when the wurm hits the graveyard. Once the wurm gets shuffled back or put back into play, it has changed zones and therefore is treated as a new and separate entity from its previous self. This means that any subsequent abilities on the stack won't affect it. Therefore whichever trigger resolves first wins UNLESS the card doesn't change zones.

[Kaleo42]

APNAP applies in turn order. This makes two possible resolutions.

Turn order 1
Doom blade opponent
Worldspine controller
Valkyrie opponent

Valkyrie takes it because it was the last thing on the stack.

Turn order 2
Doom blade opponent
Valkyrie opponent
Worldspine controller

Worldspine shuffles in because it was the last on the stack.

This is all assuming it is doom blader's turn, but I hope you get the point.