Cool thought

[izik99]

I just was thinking about this earlier today. Since our brains work in the way that sensory inputs are just processed into outputs, do you think we actually have "free will," or at least how people think of it?

An example: Someone steps on my toe, and I "choose" to yell at them.
I don't believe that we can actually "choose" what we do, even though it feels like it, our brain has a designated response to each thing that it sees. My brain thinks yelling at them is the best possible decision at the moment, so it sends signals to my muscles to do so.

[Kareason]

+1 for the Plato's Cave reference.

As for free will, imo yes we do have it but I sometimes wonder to what degree. With your example, yes we have the "free will" to chose our reactions despite what our initial desired response might be.

[Dudecore]

I love this topic. And the answer is "no". We do not have free will, it is an illusion (and powerful at that). We are not little causal agents, were not the authors of our brains - we are in essence the sum of all our experience, genetics, upbringing, social strata and some luck throw in.

"If the scientific community were to declare free will an illusion, it would precipitate a culture war far more belligerent than the one that has been waged on the subject of evolution." - Sam
Harris

[Apathy Reactor]

Yes, My instinctual reaction may be automatic but if I can control that reaction then I can override my urge to yell at someone, and instead respond with my own choice of action. This action will be based on past experience, knowledge, morals, mood, ect. But the decision has many choices, and it is my choice to make.

[Dudecore]

Yes, My instinctual reaction may be automatic but if I can control that reaction then I can override my urge to yell at someone, and instead respond with my own choice of action. This action will be based on past experience, knowledge, morals, mood, ect. But the decision has many choices, and it is my choice to make.

Well in the interest of not seeming like I'm picking on you (because lately it would seem that way) but: where do all of your thought and actions happen? I know the answer, it is your brain. It is in control of all those things, and deterministic factors allow you to believe what you're doing is "choosing" not to be angry in this situation - but your brain already decided that action long before you had a moment to think about it.

Your brain is doing so many things all at the same time, none of which you have any explanation for. You don't decided between a glass of water or a glass of milk, you can only view your choice upon reflection. Why did I make an example out of Water/Milk? I don't know, I just did - perhaps I figured it would be effective. Notice how everything I'm saying is from retrospect.

[Gorzo]

Like most of these touchy subjects, I find myself disagreeing with both "yay" and "nay." Perhaps it's best to stop thinking in such black and white terms?

We are (usually) able to make our decisions. These divisions are heavily influenced by the factors mentioned by others, but it depends on the individual as to how those influences are regarded. I see where you're both coming from, truly, but I believe that the middle ground has it.

[Dudecore]

Like most of these touchy subjects, I find myself disagreeing with both "yay" and "nay." Perhaps it's best to stop thinking in such black and white terms?

We are (usually) able to make our decisions. These divisions are heavily influenced by the factors mentioned by others, but it depends on the individual as to how those influences are regarded. I see where you're both coming from, truly, but I believe that the middle ground has it.

I have heard this argument before, and I believe after debating at length with several folks (this is a bit of an expert subject of mine) that ultimately this type of agrument agrees with Determinism over Free Will.

In essence you're saying free will is our reflecting self - the part of your brain that convinces you you're in control, even though it can only be retrospective - is made up of morals, preferences and desires. That is correct, determinists agree with you, however you're calling it free will in error.

Case in point: you cannot will your next thought, you cannot provide a reason for WHY you did something - only that you have already done it (in the past) and can only reflect upon something when it's done. Even if one believes in the ghost in the machine (an immortal soul for example) you still cannot take credit for not having the soul of a psychopath. We're all profoundly lucky to be who we are, and a number of other deterministic factors.

[Dudecore]

Another example: Your brain is in control of all your vital functions. No one claims to have autonomy over these functions - right now respiration, blood flow, metabolism and our immune systems are all working without our input. However, when it comes to consciousness we all claim to have autonomy. Why is that? Occam's Rasor would suggest we cut out any other nonsense. But let us entertain it.

Which portion of our brains does free will live? We know that if you active certain portions of the brain, and inhibit others - you can take a completely normal and healthy person and make them different. We know that massive head injuries result in various behavioral and functional changes as well. Did they also lose their free will part? How about people with Down syndrome. Have they choosen to be this way? We know that their genetics may be the easiest explanation for their behavior, but if we introduce the concept of free will - then we've got some explaining to do.

Free will makes a lot of assumptions about how our brains work. None of these assumptions are really founded in what we know about brain function in the new, emerging field of neuroscience.

[Gorzo]

Perhaps. Like I said, I do understand where you're coming from. And there are times that I could say I agree with that 100%. But it's not always like that. I do have some control over my brain and my process of thought. What do you call that ability to control your own thought process (your will) as you desire (freely) if not "free will?"

[Gorzo]

Another example: Your brain is in control of all your vital functions. No one claims to have autonomy over these functions - right now respiration, blood flow, metabolism and our immune systems are all working without our input. However, when it comes to consciousness we all claim to have autonomy. Why is that? Occam's Rasor would suggest we cut out any other nonsense. But let us entertain it.

Which portion of our brains does free will live? We know that if you active certain portions of the brain, and inhibit others - you can take a completely normal and healthy person and make them different. We know that massive head injuries result in various behavioral and functional changes as well. Did they also lose their free will part? How about people with Down syndrome. Have they choosen to be this way? We know that their genetics may be the easiest explanation for their behavior, but if we introduce the concept of free will - then we've got some explaining to do.

Free will makes a lot of assumptions about how our brains work. None of these assumptions are really founded in what we know about brain function in the new, emerging field of neuroscience.

Well, we only know what about, 10% of the brain does? And even then we don't know how it works. Asking where it is to mock a lack of an answer is kind of a null argument. You don't know where determinism is, either.

As for losing free will to brain damage, yes I think that's entirely possible. Just like you said, the brain can be altered, damaged, even born flawed, all denying it the ability to fiction as it needs to. In order for a will to be free, you need the capability to form a will, and the faculties to pursue it.

[Dudecore]

Perhaps. Like I said, I do understand where you're coming from. And there are times that I could say I agree with that 100%. But it's not always like that. I do have some control over my brain and my process of thought. What do you call that ability to control your own thought process (your will) as you desire (freely) if not "free will?"

I would suggest you're not actually in control as much as you'd believe. Example: what would you make of your sudden lack of interest in a school subject? How about work? How about your love life?

Would you say you choose not to have the desire to get into Harvard? Or that you don't have the work ethic you need to get into Harvard because your parents did not instill it in you. Perhaps your parents (whom you did not choose mind you) are not capable of teaching you those necessary lessons because they're unable to do it themselves, and their parents before them.

Time is always moving in a straight line, we cannot go back in time. We exist going on a straight line. Things that happened before you (things you are not in charge of) and it shapes our future. You're alive in the 21st century, speak English (or at least write it) and have a web enabled device. For each of those spaces we all currently occupy we're created for us, they also create who we are. If I was not typing this - it would not have typed itself. But it also the words I've written, my brain deciding which alphabetical symbols create words. Neurons, electrons, synapses firing and me only reacting to what I've written an thinking "this is completely in line with my message and who I think I am". Does not explain why I'm doing it though.

[Dudecore]

Another example: Your brain is in control of all your vital functions. No one claims to have autonomy over these functions - right now respiration, blood flow, metabolism and our immune systems are all working without our input. However, when it comes to consciousness we all claim to have autonomy. Why is that? Occam's Rasor would suggest we cut out any other nonsense. But let us entertain it.

Which portion of our brains does free will live? We know that if you active certain portions of the brain, and inhibit others - you can take a completely normal and healthy person and make them different. We know that massive head injuries result in various behavioral and functional changes as well. Did they also lose their free will part? How about people with Down syndrome. Have they choosen to be this way? We know that their genetics may be the easiest explanation for their behavior, but if we introduce the concept of free will - then we've got some explaining to do.

Free will makes a lot of assumptions about how our brains work. None of these assumptions are really founded in what we know about brain function in the new, emerging field of neuroscience.

Well, we only know what about, 10% of the brain does? And even then we don't know how it works. Asking where it is to mock a lack of an answer is kind of a null argument. You don't know where determinism is, either.

As for losing free will to brain damage, yes I think that's entirely possible. Just like you said, the brain can be altered, damaged, even born flawed, all denying it the ability to fiction as it needs to. In order for a will to be free, you need the capability to form a will, and the faculties to pursue it.

I believe you're missing my point. We do know a lot about our brains, what shutting off certain sides can result in (like stokes). But I don't think you're grasping the concept of our brains in their totality - we allow it to work automatically, breathe for us, tell us to eat, tell us to beat our hearts. But suddenly and inexplicable were also able to control only our thoughts and actions without those also being automatic. Instead we claim to have control over them, althought there is no reason to believe that if we inhibited a certain part of that brain, or exposed it to oxytocin perhaps - that we wouldn't act differently.

That going through caffeine withdrawal is a choice, and not the product of our brains requiring more of the chemical it wants. Up to what point can you really claim to be in control of any of those things?

[Dudecore]

Your argument makes no sense, you can ponder a choice before it takes place and predict the outcomes. It would take a very odd person who cannot predict an outcome or explain why he would do it beforehand.

I'm postulating the idea that competing thoughts, desires and intentions are happening on the level of the brain - a product of your socialization, genetics, luck and life experience. We're only capable of rationalizing things that ultimately HAVE happened as a result.

Edit: since I've got some downtime between critical responses. There is not a single obese person who could not afford to lose weight. But if they find their interest to hit the gym outweighed by their desire to eat a chocolate cake? What can we make of this latter desire to be unhealthy vs, taking steps toward what would only be considered good for you? Well our genetics certainly think that eating cake is better, you don't have to go out and hunt it. Our upbringing may certainly give some insight. Can you just get up and motivate yourself to work out? Sure. But it's the same process used to avoid working out - it was what you were going to do anyway:

[Gorzo]

I disagree with that. Even the automatic functions of the body can be controlled by will, and have their automation turned off. I can stop breathing right now. It's even possible to increase, slow, even stop ones own heartrate through pure force of will. How is any of that even relevant to the conversation of free will? I'm not following your point, there.

As your fat people analogy, it just sounds like you don't understand what it's like to be fat. While, yes, being overweight is unhealthy and anyone obese would be better off losing weight, it's not so cut and dry as you seem to think. You're talking about breaking old habits and forming new ones, which is not as simple as a "turn off the bad eating habit switch and turn on the good exercise switch." You're getting into an argument of willpower which is a very different (albeit related) issue to free will.

You see what I'm saying, right?

[rarehuntertay]

Do we have free will? Or our actions controlled by a higher being that gives us the illusion of free will? And if someone is destined to do something, then does that person have free will? The ancient Greeks believed in something akin to this, while the Titans still ruled.