Touchy Subjects #2: Abortion *NFSW

[Moneekahh]

What would the fate of all of the unwanted babies be if abortion were illegal? Most would be either: orphaned or born to parents who resent them and are treated poorly (abused).

As a woman, I do not believe that the father should have a choice. It's unfair that nature intended for only woman to become pregnant, but that's the way it is. Carrying a baby that you do not want can cause extreme emotional damage.

I have a child, so obviously abortion is not the path that I chose for myself, but I am fully pro-choice. I do not believe that anyone has a right to tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.

Unborn baby is not part of your body by any stretch of logic. It is unborn baby body, not yours, it just happens to be inside you. Is a chicken you ate part of your body?

An unborn child (fetus, whatever you'd like to call it) is solely dependent on the woman in whose uterus it resides. My child was part of my body until he would have been able to live outside of the womb without medical assistance. Until that point, they are not their own person. The law does not recognize abortion as murder, why is that?

And you can't really compare a meal you ate to a fetus.

[Piotr]

An unborn child (fetus, whatever you'd like to call it) is solely dependent on the woman in whose uterus it resides.

This is a lie. http://preemies.about.com/od/readersstories/a/World-S-Smallest-Preemies.htm

My child was part of my body until he would have been able to live outside of the womb without medical assistance. Until that point, they are not their own person.

Your child was never part of your body, it was connected to your body. The chicken you have eaten is not part of your body, it is in your body.

The idea that you are not human if you require medical assistance to survive is, frankly speaking, dumb. I'm not gonna comment it beyond that.

The law does not recognize abortion as murder, why is that?

Because the US law is evil.

And you can't really compare a meal you ate to a fetus.

I'm using your logic. You compared unborn human to something you can expel from your body, like unwanted chicken. The chicken is in your body because you opened your mouth and swallowed it, the unborn human is in your body because you opened your legs and accepted the semen. You let go an egg, it stopped being part of your body at the moment when it left your ovaria, now it is just in your body. After that the semen merged with the egg and the new human was born. At this point you are not even connected to it, it is merely inside your body like an eaten chicken. After that it attached to the inside of your body, and you grew a cord which connected you to it. It didn't become part of your body just because you become connected.

[Vampyvyrus]

I'm pro choice. Arguments can be made for either side of this topic as we've seen. But IMO the simple truth is there's too much neglect out there already. I hate seeing a child beaten to death or discarded on the news simply bc they couldn't handle being a parent. I believe whole heartedly that if a person believes they are not ready to be a parent then they shouldn't be. Yes, sometimes people step up to the plate and do what needs to be done and raise their child with love and care. But in a lot of instances people can't handle it and their child suffers for it.

Raising my daughter is the hardest and most wonderful thing I've ever done and wouldn't give it up for anything. Just thought I'd throw this in here

[Piotr]

Xaol, we are not anti abortion, we are anti murder. Religion has nothing to do with being anti murder. Fetus is not a part of woman's body by any stretch of logic. It is unborn human.

You enter discussion where logical arguments were provided proving that fetus is not part of woman's body. You did not address these arguments, you simply provided your opinion completely ignoring what was said before. I don't like that at all, -1.

[Piotr]

I'm pro choice. Arguments can be made for either side of this topic as we've seen. But IMO the simple truth is there's too much neglect out there already. I hate seeing a child beaten to death or discarded on the news simply bc they couldn't handle being a parent. I believe whole heartedly that if a person believes they are not ready to be a parent then they shouldn't be. Yes, sometimes people step up to the plate and do what needs to be done and raise their child with love and care. But in a lot of instances people can't handle it and their child suffers for it.

Raising my daughter is the hardest and most wonderful thing I've ever done and wouldn't give it up for anything. Just thought I'd throw this in here

You want to kill to prevent suffering? Are you serious?

[Vampyvyrus]

I'm pro choice. Arguments can be made for either side of this topic as we've seen. But IMO the simple truth is there's too much neglect out there already. I hate seeing a child beaten to death or discarded on the news simply bc they couldn't handle being a parent. I believe whole heartedly that if a person believes they are not ready to be a parent then they shouldn't be. Yes, sometimes people step up to the plate and do what needs to be done and raise their child with love and care. But in a lot of instances people can't handle it and their child suffers for it.

Raising my daughter is the hardest and most wonderful thing I've ever done and wouldn't give it up for anything. Just thought I'd throw this in here

You want to kill to prevent suffering? Are you serious?

I'm not here to agrue Piotr. It's my oppinion as I've stated. This is a subject I've gone back and forth on a few times. But this is where I've settled at, pro choice. Yes I see where your coming from. But tell me this...if the fetus has no heartbeat then how can you consider it alive?

Again I don't want to argue so ill probably stop posting on the subject after today. But I will say this...this argument will always be around. There are to many variables to consider which makes a clear answer impossible. It all comes down to oppinion. When my gf told me she was pregnant I told her straight out that I don't want her to get an abortion. She still considered it. I asked her not to have an abortion even if she didn't want her she could sign her over to me. But not everyone is me and not everyone should be allowed to breed.

[Piotr]

I'm not here to agrue Piotr. It's my oppinion as I've stated. This is a subject I've gone back and forth on a few times. But this is where I've settled at, pro choice. Yes I see where your coming from. But tell me this...if the fetus has no heartbeat then how can you consider it alive?

Again I don't want to argue so ill probably stop posting on the subject after today. But I will say this...this argument will always be around. There are to many variables to consider which makes a clear answer impossible. It all comes down to oppinion. When my gf told me she was pregnant I told her straight out that I don't want her to get an abortion. She still considered it. I asked her not to have an abortion even if she didn't want her she could sign her over to me. But not everyone is me and not everyone should be allowed to breed.

Then you completely missed the point of this board. It is here for people who want to discuss, hence the name: Discussion. I couldn't care less about your opinion alone, I care about your arguments backing that opinion, for I cannot discuss opinions, I can only refute your arguments and your logic leading you to that opinion.

The issue of abortion doesn't come down to an opinion, it comes down to the question whether the unborn human is human or not. Unless you ignore that and are of an opinion that it is ok to kill humans who has done nothing wrong, in which case I have nothing but contempt for you. If not, tell my why do you believe that fetus is not human and provide your logic.

Heartbeat is not a requirement of life, a single bacteria cell has no heartbeat yet according to science and logic it is very much alive. Same for the unborn human who for the first few moments of their life is just a single tiny cell. It is not a chicken cell, it is not a dead cell, it is not the mother's cell. According to science, it is a cell of completely unique new human, unattached to mother, in no way part of her body, possessing unique DNA. According to science and logic it is unborn human.

[Vampyvyrus]

A 16 yr old girl is raped and as a result she's pregnant. Science or not... She should have the right to decide if she wants to go thru the life changing event of a pregnancy. Subject like this don't always go on the simple science of things. Like I said there's to many variables...and whether you like it or not it all comes down to oppinion.

[Piotr]

A 16 yr old girl is raped and as a result she's pregnant. Science or not... She should have the right to decide if she wants to go thru the life changing event of a pregnancy. Subject like this don't always go on the simple science of things. Like I said there's to many variables...and whether you like it or not it all comes down to oppinion.

Maybe she should, but not over the dead body of another human. As much as I sympathise with that poor girl, it is not her right to kill others to avoid the trauma. I'm sorry.

Whether you like it or not, opinions have no place here. What needs to be proven or disproven is whether fetus is a human. If it isn't, abortion is ok. If it is, abortion is murder.

[Vampyvyrus]

And what if for reasons unknown the child's killing her? What then? These subjects are never won...we can just keep pilling on variables.

[Piotr]

And what if for reasons unknown the child's killing her? What then? These subjects are never won...we can just keep pilling on variables.

This has been discussed in this thread before*. If fetus is human, it is subject to the same rules as other humans. In case when the child is killing her, you use the very same logic as when I'm killing you: you kill me in self defense. Abortion is legal when the unborn human is killing the mother. Logic is the ultimate law.

* it is bad form to jump into a discussion without reading the entirety of it first and learning arguments which have already been discussed.

[Moneekahh]

My son was a premie, I know what a preemie is, but thanks. I am still of the opinion that up until a fetus is capable of surviving outside of the womb, it's not yet its own person. Some people see abortion as murder, some do not. Please, I would love to know what you think would happen to the thousands of children would would be born against their parents will each year if abortion were outlawed. Or are you of the opinion that if abortion were illegal, that people who aren't ready to be parents would magically stop having sex?

[MuggyWuggy]

Eh..,do you know how many kids are never adopted and are thrown through the foster system without a care about them. Brothers and sisters divided because people only like one of them. That's awful, your family is already torn apart, now the last blood relative you have is being essentially sold to some people who didn't really "like" you when interacting for 10 minutes.

[Piotr]

Eh..,do you know how many kids are never adopted and are thrown through the foster system without a care about them. Brothers and sisters divided because people only like one of them. That's awful, your family is already torn apart, now the last blood relative you have is being essentially sold to some people who didn't really "like" you when interacting for 10 minutes.

In developed world there's a chronic lack of newborns for adoption, in some countries you have to wait for as long as 10 years to adopt a newborn. I know, I tried*. So the answer is: none.

What kind of twisted logic led you to believe that death is a better fate than being separated from your siblings? This is madness.

* they basically told me to .love. off and come back in 4 years.

[Piotr]

I am still of the opinion that up until a fetus is capable of surviving outside of the womb, it's not yet its own person.

Tell me then, what should be the maximum age of the fetus beyond which abortion is illegal?