-1/-1

[Tetsomori]

So i had a (Geralf's Messenger) in play with an undying +1/+1 on it and i (Black Suns Zenith) for 4 why does undying not trigger again? Shouldnt the counters be removed?

[BadLuckIrish]

It will however only if u dont kill your own creature with {Black Sun Zenith}. all you need to do is put however many -1/-1 on the creature as there are +1/+1.

[Tetsomori]

Is it not a static ability that removes the -1/-1 for the +1/+1?

[JakeyWakey]

Ok when you cast a {black suns zenith} and pump it enough to kill your {geralfs messenger} he will go to the graveyard, now undying triggers, the reason he does not come back is because at the last instant he was on the battle field, undying see him as a creature with, let's say four -1/-1 counters on him, and one +1/+1 counter on him, hence undying does not trigger. Why you ask, I'm sure it is a stack issue.  Prolly some gibberish that will say the creature dies as a result of the loss of toughness, and the counters don't yet annihilate eachother before this happens. Too technical if you ask me. But hey it's the game we play.

[Maximo]

-1/-1 counters cancel each other out, don't they? I'm pretty sure undying would trigger here.

[ChrisRodriguez]

-1/-1 counters cancel each other out, don't they? I'm pretty sure undying would trigger here.

No it won't. Black sunning for 4 would kill the messager before the +1/+1 counters are removed. So when undying triggers it will still see the messager still having the +1/+1 counter on it.

[BadLuckIrish]

You must first remove the +1/+1 with a -1/-1 BEFORE u kill it. Say u have a 2/2 with a +1/+1 counter. You black sun for 3. They dont cancel out until after the state based. It would die before they cancel. Undying will check for a +1/+1. The 2/2 died with 1 +1/+1 and 3 -1/-1.

[BlackJester]

Removing the counters and destroying the creatures are both State Based Actions (CR704.5) and all are check and performed simultaneously.  When the creature dies, undying will check to see if a +1/+1 counter was on it just before it died, which it did.

From the Mothership:
"If a creature ever has +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it, the two kinds of counters immediately "cancel out," one for one, until only one kind of counter remains. For example, a creature with three +1/+1 counters and two -1/-1 counters would end up with one +1/+1 counter. There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield."

[ChrisRodriguez]

You must first remove the +1/+1 with a -1/-1 BEFORE u kill it. Say u have a 2/2 with a +1/+1 counter. You black sun for 3. They dont cancel out until after the state based. It would die before they cancel. Undying will check for a +1/+1. The 2/2 died with 1 +1/+1 and 3 -1/-1.

Much better then the way I explained it.

[Tetsomori]

So another question i have is of i did not know it was going to happen like that can i take it back?

[BlackJester]

So another question i have is of i did not know it was going to happen like that can i take it back?

Depends.  Is this a casual game with friends, or a sanctioned event?

[Tetsomori]

Santioned standard tourney. I only wanted to reduce the mana i put into it not fully change my play

[BlackJester]

Santioned standard tourney. I only wanted to reduce the mana i put into it not fully change my play

FNM isn't supposed to be super intense. It's not exactly the pro tour, but officially you don't get "do overs". If you explain your intention to your opponent they might let you off in the name of goodwill, but they don't have to either.

[Tetsomori]

Well my gf was my opponet and she told me to take it back/ do whatever but the local judge said i couldnt change it at all. He isnt even a lvl 1 judge

[BlackJester]

A game error is one thing, but a bad play usually means you're out of luck.

I need to bone up on my tournament rules.