U/G champion

[Trunksthemighty]

With Vaurel could you turn  {Gideon, Champion of Justice} into a creature then double his loyalty counters?

[Keyeto]

Unfortunately, no. When Gideon becomes a creature, his P/T are set to how many loyalty he had as a planeswalker. He doesn't have that many +1/+1 counters, he simply has that much P/T.

[Trunksthemighty]

She doesn't specify +1+1 counters though. Just counters.

[Imdowd80]

She doesn't specify +1+1 counters though. Just counters.

Right, but Gideon as a creature doesn't have any counters at all. And he won't regain his counters till he reverts back to a Planeswalker.

[Gorzo]

She doesn't specify +1+1 counters though. Just counters.

True, but in the rulings for Gideon it states that the power and toughness for his 0 ability is set when the ability resolves based on the number of loyalty counters at that time, even if the number of loyalty should change later in the turn.

So you could double his loyalty counters using the simic lady's effect BEFORE using his ability for a double-size Gideon, but afterwards you'd only get the loyalty counters, not the power/toughness.

[Trunksthemighty]

She doesn't specify +1+1 counters though. Just counters.

True, but in the rulings for Gideon it states that the power and toughness for his 0 ability is set when the ability resolves based on the number of loyalty counters at that time, even if the number of loyalty should change later in the turn.

So you could double his loyalty counters using the simic lady's effect BEFORE using his ability for a double-size Gideon, but afterwards you'd only get the loyalty counters, not the power/toughness.

That's what I'm looking in to. The simic lady can't target pws. I want to know if you could turn him into a creature then make him bigger for next turn.

[Keyeto]

She doesn't specify +1+1 counters though. Just counters.

True, but in the rulings for Gideon it states that the power and toughness for his 0 ability is set when the ability resolves based on the number of loyalty counters at that time, even if the number of loyalty should change later in the turn.

So you could double his loyalty counters using the simic lady's effect BEFORE using his ability for a double-size Gideon, but afterwards you'd only get the loyalty counters, not the power/toughness.

That's what I'm looking in to. The simic lady can't target pws. I want to know if you could turn him into a creature then make him bigger for next turn.

Ohhh, alright. I believe I misunderstood at first. This, I believe would work, for these reasons:
1) He's still a planeswalker, this means anything that would normally affect a pw (like adding/reducing loyalty) still applies to him.
2) Damage done to him (unpreventable damage can still get him) still reduces that much loyalty
3) Because of #2, this means that he retains the property of "having loyalty"

The thing that makes this tricky is that it doesn't say whether or not he retains the loyalty counters on him while he's a creature. I'm going to say it works, but I'm also going to look into it a bit more, since I'm unsure.

[Keyeto]

Alright, here's my verdict:

It works!

There's a couple things that are important here, the first being that he's still a planeswalker, and planeswalkers have loyalty counters on them. If he stopped being a pw, it would be different. Another thing:

306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, "This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number." This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).

This helps solidify the first point. The permanent comes into play with loyalty, and as long as its a pw, it will have loyalty.

Damage done to Gideon still has an effect on his loyalty, and if it reaches 0, he dies. This proves that his loyalty can still be changed while he's a creature, as he's still a pw.

Your Gideon will be a White Planeswalker Creature with the subtypes Gideon Human Soldier. As he's a human, the Champion can target him, as he's a planeswalker, he has loyalty. Loyalty exists due to loyalty counters. This means he is a creature with loyalty counters on him, and will work out.

That was a fun one!

RESOLVED

[Trunksthemighty]

Alright, here's my verdict:

It works!

There's a couple things that are important here, the first being that he's still a planeswalker, and planeswalkers have loyalty counters on them. If he stopped being a pw, it would be different. Another thing:

306.5b A planeswalker is treated as if its text box included, "This permanent enters the battlefield with a number of loyalty counters on it equal to its printed loyalty number." This ability creates a replacement effect (see rule 614.1c).

This helps solidify the first point. The permanent comes into play with loyalty, and as long as its a pw, it will have loyalty.

Damage done to Gideon still has an effect on his loyalty, and if it reaches 0, he dies. This proves that his loyalty can still be changed while he's a creature, as he's still a pw.

Your Gideon will be a White Planeswalker Creature with the subtypes Gideon Human Soldier. As he's a human, the Champion can target him, as he's a planeswalker, he has loyalty. Loyalty exists due to loyalty counters. This means he is a creature with loyalty counters on him, and will work out.

That was a fun one!

Great answer and very thorough . I'm gonna try to abuse that ability of hers

+1

[Keyeto]

Thank you, glad to help out! It was a nice challenge; certainly not the typical question we see around here!

Again, there's no ruling I've found that says "planeswalkers retain loyalty counters while creatures" but this makes sense to me, and hopefully to everyone else. If its a pw, it has loyalty, if it has loyalty, it has counters. Of course, if anyone feels I overlooked something, feel free to call me out

[Kaleo42]

You dont need a ruling that says it keeps the counters. There is simply no effect that removes or replaces the counters. It also says his p/t is the number of loyalty counters so if counters were to dissapear magically then he would be a 0/0 and die to state based action. This also means changes to his loyalty in creature mode effect his p/t in real time.

[Iandtormentor]

You dont need a ruling that says it keeps the counters. There is simply no effect that removes or replaces the counters. It also says his p/t is the number of loyalty counters so if counters were to dissapear magically then he would be a 0/0 and die to state based action. This also means changes to his loyalty in creature mode effect his p/t in real time.

"magically" doesent work when playing magic cuz it's not really saying much...

[Kaleo42]

Magic is really more scientific than people tend to acknowledge. It was made by a mathematician after all. Everything is very clearly spelled out especially on new cards.   

[Keyeto]

You dont need a ruling that says it keeps the counters. There is simply no effect that removes or replaces the counters. It also says his p/t is the number of loyalty counters so if counters were to dissapear magically then he would be a 0/0 and die to state based action. This also means changes to his loyalty in creature mode effect his p/t in real time.

Fair enough, good points! I was just trying to be cautious, since they aren't very clear on what happens when a planeswalker "becomes" a creature in any rulings. And in general, I like to have a ruling behind my answers, especially when cards that aren't yet released are thrown in the mix, so when there's no ruling I like to have a fair amount of points to back my claim. I guess I did a bit of over thinking on this one 😆