Witchcraft

[Pwnager]

I see a severe lack of examples in your post there sir, here, let me help you with that.

Turn 5: Curse of Misfortunes
Turn 6: Curse of Misfortunes (cast/witch sac) and free Curse of Thirst
Turn 7: Curse of Thirst and Curse of Death's Hold (both free) Cast or sac witch for second Curse of Thirst or a Curse of Bloodletting

All this adds up to weakened opponent creatures for my survivability, all the while ive been getting bonuses for sacing, such as life gain, or counters. Did I mention they are now directly taking about 12 damage per turn with only more to come?

Turn 8: free Curse of Exhaustion and Echoes. 16 damage per turn. Need I go on?

But I dont know... Five whole mana? That seems a bit much for so "little payoff".

[theguyofdragon]

Vote: who wants me to rant on about the unplayability of most curses?

Personally, I vote you rant about how to make it better, not how it doesnt work :p

The problem with that is: there is no way to make curses function any better. They simply don't work, and if you want me to explain my reasoning, do say so. My alternative? Abolish curses, replace with new archetype

Really now? And how many Curse decks have you personally play tested? One? Maybe two? Perhaps you have simply beaten one a few times and are assuming it was because curses dont work. In that case, more likely, you should be saying poorly built decks dont work, or decks that havent had time to be tweaked and fine tuned dont work; in which case you are most certainly correct: bad decks ARE bad. However, as I believe, given the opportunity to master a new archetype, any deck idea can be developed into a strong, playable, dare I say, even highly competetive deck. Time has proven time and again that seemingly weak ideas can become strong given the opportunity and time to do so. With just a little patience and innovation, almost anything can be pulled off efectively.

Well think of it this way. I could play Curse of Misfortunes, and next turn you start pulling stuff out. Or, i could play batterskull, or Jace Memory Adept. Yes, you are right in that you need practice in order to master a deck or new archetype, but the thing is that there are so many better things to play. Like instead of a Curse of the Pierced Heart, play a stormblood berserker with a stromkirk noble. Then you have more damage, more creatures, and it's faster. Also, with this deck there is so much sacrifice that it's hard to maintain creatures on the field.

[Appleguru56]

I see a severe lack of examples in your post there sir, here, let me help you with that.

Turn 5: Curse of Misfortunes
Turn 6: Curse of Misfortunes (cast/witch sac) and free Curse of Thirst
Turn 7: Curse of Thirst and Curse of Death's Hold (both free) Cast or sac witch for second Curse of Thirst or a Curse of Bloodletting

All this adds up to weakened opponent creatures for my survivability, all the while ive been getting bonuses for sacing, such as life gain, or counters. Did I mention they are now directly taking about 12 damage per turn with only more to come?

Turn 8: free Curse of Exhaustion and Echoes. 16 damage per turn. Need I go on?

But I dont know... Five whole mana? That seems a bit much for so "little payoff".

Oh boy, you can perhaps do something by turn 10, as if any other deck isn't gonna do anything about that. How about I play stromkirk noble and kill you singlehandedly by turn 7? Or play a Titan (any Titan) and exterminate you by turn 9? Or I could simply pull a tiny mana leak out and screw your entire deck over for many many many turns to come. This archetype simply ISN'T GOOD, and simply trying isn't gonna make the cards any better.

[loop-s-pool]

Apple, to say that curses arent good for you or bad against your opponent is insane to say, using your logic a {Stromkirk Noble} wouldn't  be a good card because it doesn't do anything for you, no card advantage effect, life-gain, nothing, and wouldn't be good against your opponent because who knows, your reasoning against curses doing nothing against an opponent is mind boggling to me. Does -1/-1 to each and every creature sound like nothing to you? While curses also don't give direct advantage, the do pose a threat to an opponent. A standard deck in the meta isn't prepared for curses, so they'll be staying. {Curse of Echoes} locks down all counter-spells. And different curses will be hurting the opponent severely each turn. Saying something isn't playable, doesn't make it unplayable.

[Pwnager]

Apple, to say that curses arent good for you or bad against your opponent is insane to say, using your logic a {Stromkirk Noble} wouldn't  be a good card because it doesn't do anything for you, no card advantage effect, life-gain, nothing, and wouldn't be good against your opponent because who knows, your reasoning against curses doing nothing against an opponent is mind boggling to me. Does -1/-1 to each and every creature sound like nothing to you? While curses also don't give direct advantage, the do pose a threat to an opponent. A standard deck in the meta isn't prepared for curses, so they'll be staying. {Curse of Echoes} locks down all counter-spells. And different curses will be hurting the opponent severely each turn. Saying something isn't playable, doesn't make it unplayable.

+1

[Appleguru56]

Apple, to say that curses arent good for you or bad against your opponent is insane to say, using your logic a {Stromkirk Noble} wouldn't  be a good card because it doesn't do anything for you, no card advantage effect, life-gain, nothing, and wouldn't be good against your opponent because who knows, your reasoning against curses doing nothing against an opponent is mind boggling to me. Does -1/-1 to each and every creature sound like nothing to you? While curses also don't give direct advantage, the do pose a threat to an opponent. A standard deck in the meta isn't prepared for curses, so they'll be staying. {Curse of Echoes} locks down all counter-spells. And different curses will be hurting the opponent severely each turn. Saying something isn't playable, doesn't make it unplayable.

What I am saying is that they are not good compared to other things you could be doing with the same resources. You can pay five to find some more curses, or you could pay five and win the game.
{stromkirk noble} kills your opponent very very quickly, and becomes a huge threat. So yes, it doesn't do stuff for you, but it harm the opponent since it kinda just wins games.

[loop-s-pool]

5 and win the game? Would you please link me to the excellent combo that pulls this off? Or is it an artifact that reads

Apple's Core [5]

Criticize a archetype, T: Win the game

[Pwnager]

Apple, to say that curses arent good for you or bad against your opponent is insane to say, using your logic a {Stromkirk Noble} wouldn't  be a good card because it doesn't do anything for you, no card advantage effect, life-gain, nothing, and wouldn't be good against your opponent because who knows, your reasoning against curses doing nothing against an opponent is mind boggling to me. Does -1/-1 to each and every creature sound like nothing to you? While curses also don't give direct advantage, the do pose a threat to an opponent. A standard deck in the meta isn't prepared for curses, so they'll be staying. {Curse of Echoes} locks down all counter-spells. And different curses will be hurting the opponent severely each turn. Saying something isn't playable, doesn't make it unplayable.

What I am saying is that they are not good compared to other things you could be doing with the same resources. You can pay five to find some more curses, or you could pay five and win the game.
{stromkirk noble} kills your opponent very very quickly, and becomes a huge threat. So yes, it doesn't do stuff for you, but it harm the opponent since it kinda just wins games.

First off, your argument that it cant do anything until turm 10 was completely incorrect. I clearly posted a win by turn 8. Then you argued that things could be faster such as a titan winning by turn nine. Just what? Turn 9 < turn 8? And a Stormkirk Noble = auto win? since when?! Maybe against humans, but what about ANY other type? Then its just a 1/1. I know im not going to convince you that curses are good, youve clearly made up your mind that they arent. But you dont have to keep ripping on them because of personal preference.

[Appleguru56]

5 and win the game? Would you please link me to the excellent combo that pulls this off? Or is it an artifact that reads

Apple's Core [5]

Criticize a archetype, T: Win the game

Ok, how about tempered steel? It wins on turn 3,4,5 without hassle. How about humans? Wins turn 5,6,7 no problem. Tokens? Wins turn 5,6,7 Now do you want me to further explain why aggro is fast?

[Appleguru56]

Apple, to say that curses arent good for you or bad against your opponent is insane to say, using your logic a {Stromkirk Noble} wouldn't  be a good card because it doesn't do anything for you, no card advantage effect, life-gain, nothing, and wouldn't be good against your opponent because who knows, your reasoning against curses doing nothing against an opponent is mind boggling to me. Does -1/-1 to each and every creature sound like nothing to you? While curses also don't give direct advantage, the do pose a threat to an opponent. A standard deck in the meta isn't prepared for curses, so they'll be staying. {Curse of Echoes} locks down all counter-spells. And different curses will be hurting the opponent severely each turn. Saying something isn't playable, doesn't make it unplayable.

What I am saying is that they are not good compared to other things you could be doing with the same resources. You can pay five to find some more curses, or you could pay five and win the game.
{stromkirk noble} kills your opponent very very quickly, and becomes a huge threat. So yes, it doesn't do stuff for you, but it harm the opponent since it kinda just wins games.

First off, your argument that it cant do anything until turm 10 was completely incorrect. I clearly posted a win by turn 8. Then you argued that things could be faster such as a titan winning by turn nine. Just what? Turn 9 < turn 8? And a Stormkirk Noble = auto win? since when?! Maybe against humans, but what about ANY other type? Then its just a 1/1. I know im not going to convince you that curses are good, youve clearly made up your mind that they arent. But you dont have to keep ripping on them because of personal preference.

Ok maybe you are fully understanding my points. What I am saying and it's ALL I'm saying is that people have better ways to win! Those cards are examples of efficient ways to win! They do not need to wait for a turn, pull another curse, wait another turn, pull another curse, deal some damage and hope none of that goes bad. One simple mana leak, negate, dissipate, stoic rebuttal, cancel, oblivion ring, ratchet bomb, natralize, ray of revelation, and even disenchant is enough to completely screw over this deck. What I am saying and ALL IM SAYING is that there are better things to do with your deck!

[Pwnager]

5 and win the game? Would you please link me to the excellent combo that pulls this off? Or is it an artifact that reads

Apple's Core [5]

Criticize a archetype, T: Win the game

Ok, how about tempered steel? It wins on turn 3,4,5 without hassle. How about humans? Wins turn 5,6,7 no problem. Tokens? Wins turn 5,6,7 Now do you want me to further explain why aggro is fast?

tempered steel wins on turn 3? Please for the love of god explain that to me. Go ahead. Gimme a turn 3 win combo. Be sure to link the cards specifically. Standard only please.

[Appleguru56]

5 and win the game? Would you please link me to the excellent combo that pulls this off? Or is it an artifact that reads

Apple's Core [5]

Criticize a archetype, T: Win the game

Ok, how about tempered steel? It wins on turn 3,4,5 without hassle. How about humans? Wins turn 5,6,7 no problem. Tokens? Wins turn 5,6,7 Now do you want me to further explain why aggro is fast?

tempered steel wins on turn 3? Please for the love of god explain that to me. Go ahead. Gimme a turn 3 win combo. Be sure to link the cards specifically. Standard only please.

Wonderful! Glad I can enhance the educational value of this.
T1: mox opal, 2 memnites, land, 2 signal pest.
T2: land, tempered steel, swing for 16
T3: win

[theguyofdragon]

5 and win the game? Would you please link me to the excellent combo that pulls this off? Or is it an artifact that reads

Apple's Core [5]

Criticize a archetype, T: Win the game

Ok, how about tempered steel? It wins on turn 3,4,5 without hassle. How about humans? Wins turn 5,6,7 no problem. Tokens? Wins turn 5,6,7 Now do you want me to further explain why aggro is fast?

tempered steel wins on turn 3? Please for the love of god explain that to me. Go ahead. Gimme a turn 3 win combo. Be sure to link the cards specifically. Standard only please.

Memnite memnite mox opal, land, signal pest. Next turn land with tempered steel, swing for 10. Next turn swing for 10

[BlackJester]

I'm going to try and take some middle ground here and try to pick from big sides. First, there are cards that, in a vacuum, have greater game winning potential than others. A single {Mana Leak} will never win a game all by itself. But good players should look beyond each card in a vacuum and look at how the cards interact with everything around it. You know players that have tried Frankensteining a bunch of ðŸ'° cards into a deck and getting beat. Magic just isn't that easy and I know you know it.

Individually, curses don't win too many games. Enchantments rarely do. But many of the curses have functionallity. Doubling damage, nerfing their creatures. Dealing damage to turn on your bloodthirsty guys.  I also think the meta is light on enchantment hate so I don't think many players are going to have answers once they hit the table. O-rings will get you though.
However, unlike other archetypes like Humans and Vampires, the curses don't have enough synergy in their effects and are expensive for what you get.  They are slow too. To this day, creatures are the most effective and reliable way to kill people, and R&D try to keep it that way because creature battles are more fun than the old days of "enchantment duels".

Tl;dr this jester thinks you can use some curses in your decks, but a straight out curse deck will have a hard time being competitive in an aggro environment. And I even like the curses!  Too bad they stink in multiplayer. ðŸ˜"

[theguyofdragon]

Curse have potential, they are simply outweighed by other things. Such as turn three with tempered steel. Wolf run titan ramp. Solar Flare turn four titan. Burning vengance cancel/destroy. Stuff like that. These curses are too slow to fight effectively enough