Karona, false god

[Greg54js]

Okay, but I just think that's weird. 😒

Yeah it is but commander is a very different format in which standard rulings can get very skewed and distorted

[BlackJester]

True, I suppose. The 21 rule is one I really dislike for reasons like this. It's just not intuitive.  It's like some bizarre twist on poison.

"If my big chief hits you enough times you die. Even if you're at a bazillion life.  But if someone {Mind Controls} him, it's like he's a different creature."

Plus, in a seven player game, I now have to track not just on life total but eight (nine If some jerk plays poison. 👿). Not worth it to me. But I guess I should have been there to make the rules. 😁

/rant

[ecky]

I think the wording on this is really ambiguous. "Commander/Player pair" could refer to a pair as the attacking player and a general, or the defending player and a general...

[Gorzo]

My train of thought is along the same line as jester's on this one. But I can't confirm the ruling, because I honestly don't know. I know how I play it, I know how my meta plays it. But I can see the other side's point, and can understand both sides of this debate. I see no official way to determine which is absolutely correct either, and I'm way too lazy to browse mtgcommander for answers right now haha

[Greg54js]

Haha Gorzo I agree with you. Personally this is an issue for your meta to determine the right answer

[BlackJester]

Since WotC offers official EDH, they should have the rules to handle it. The rule above suggest the controller is irrelevant to Commander damage.

I can see it going either way, so whatever works for you.

[Greg54js]

Since WotC offers official EDH, they should have the rules to handle it. The rule above suggest the controller is irrelevant to Commander damage.

I can see it going either way, so whatever works for you.

There is no gavel for this question because it is not truly resolved....

[Inconnu]

Here are the specific rules from the links at WoC. Updated aug 25th,2012. Hooe it helps:

"If a player has been dealt 21 points of combat damage by a particular Commander during the game, that player loses a game. Details

This is an additional state based effect.
Commander Damage is cumulative throughout the game; nothing can reduce the amount of damage a Commander has previously done to a player.
Because it is a property of the card and not a characteristic of the game object, a card is still the same Commander even if it leaves the field and returns.
While effects can raise a player's life total, it doesn't reduce the amount of damage previously taken from a Commander. (eg: Beacon of Immortality)
Conversely, combat damage can be reduced, prevented, or replaced as it is taken, in which case it was never dealt and doesn't count towards the total taken from that Commander. (eg: Fog or Captain's Maneuver)
Commander Damage is specific to each Commander/Player pairing, not combined across all Commander.
A player can lose if he or she is dealt 21 points of combat damage by his or her own Commander (ie: under someone else's control)."

Since it states that damage is specific to a particular commander each commander damage is tracked individually if used against you. Ie i use a players commander and hit for 10. Then somehow someone else uses that same commander to hit that same player for 11 then commander damage rule results in that player losing.
So have lots of paper handy folks!

[BlackJester]

Not to my satisfaction, no it isn't.

My problem with the other scenario presented (every time Karona changes it's tracked like a new commander for each player) is that now, in a 7 player game, you aren't just tracking 8 life totals but 43.

If each commander counts differently based on who is controlling it, then you have 7 Commanders potentially controlled by 6 opponents plus your regular life total. (7x6+1=43 for those who need help with math. ).

To me, that's just bug-nutty. Not that it's right mind you, just bug-nutty.

[Double-O-Scotch]

Dammit guys, where's my gavel? So if opponent one smacks me for 10 with my own Karona, and opponent two smacks me for 11 with my own Karona, I lose? Or does each opponent have to hit me for 21 each. Just looking for clarification. Thx for all the help.

[Greg54js]

Dammit guys, where's my gavel? So if opponent one smacks me for 10 with my own Karona, and opponent two smacks me for 11 with my own Karona, I lose? Or does each opponent have to hit me for 21 each. Just looking for clarification. Thx for all the help.

They each have to hit you for 21 with a single commander not a combined 21.

I'm closing this case for now
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