What do you believe in?

[Dudecore]

I am tired of going in circles. I am not dodging anyone, or angry at anyone, I just can't do this anymore. I'm gonna take an extended break from the conversation. If another determinist would like to tag in for me, itd be much appreciated.

[Nobbert]

For the record, you are your brain.  The way you behave and act, the things you prefer, the way you speak to people and the way you think and react to things, tht is all a result of chemical reactions between synapses in your brain.  You do not have a brain, you are a brain. 

[Coffee Vampire]

I am tired of going in circles. I am not dodging anyone, or angry at anyone, I just can't do this anymore. I'm gonna take an extended break from the conversation. If another determinist would like to tag in for me, itd be much appreciated.

I feel ya bro. Even two days of arguments is a little much for me too. Don't worry nobody thinks you are trying to get the easy way out or trying to not have to answer stuff. I may be out of this too pretty soon. I know what you mean about going in circles...

[scarsabrex]

a flaw in the argument between determination/predestination and free will is you can't really PROVE one or the other.

Determinists will always say things happened they were supposed to.

And free will believers will always say a change could have been made.

Until the discovery of either a multiverse or a script which predicts every future event infallibly this argument is almost a moot point.

personally i believe in free will. i think predetermination is a weak willed man's to excuse his actions. And those who make good argument for determination are really
stronger willed than you think.

[Coffee Vampire]

a flaw in the argument between determination/predestination and free will is you can't really PROVE one or the other.

Determinists will always say things happened they were supposed to.

And free will believers will always say a change could have been made.

Until the discovery of either a multiverse or a script which predicts every future event infallibly this argument is almost a moot point.

personally i believe in free will. i think predetermination is a weak willed man's to excuse his actions. And those who make good argument for determination are really
stronger willed than you think.

Exactly. Which is why everyone has been trying to find different ways to say the same things.

[Jbombard51]

How am I wrong when there exists more evidence of free will than determinism? I am not ignorant of your ideals, I simply choose to believe in free will as I have seen proof of it more than the ideals of determinism. 

For one example, are you calling the millions of people whom have turned themselves over to a higher power in order to help 'cure' their addiction problems wrong? Proof is that it HAS worked for millions of people worldwide, universally despite the disparity of the members of AA.  It's much easier to believe in the absence of the power of will than it is to embrace and evolve from it. 

As far as circles goes, yeah apparently that is happening here. Once someone believes something is true, it's impossible to change their mindset unless they 'choose' to accept the possibility of other alternative ways to think.  I've always been open to new ideals and thoughts, as it is the best way I know of to grow and enlighten myself. 

[Coffee Vampire]

For anyone having difficulties with the idea of a universe arising from nothing:
A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing: by Lawrence Krauss http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Nothing-There-Something-Rather/dp/145162445X

It's an excellent read.  It does get a little heavy on physics at times, but if you can handle MtG you will be fine.

As far as faith goes, I have faith in the repeatability, predictability, and self-evaluation if the scientific community as a whole.  Ideas are based on repeatedly measured values, theories are tested and thoroughly questioned before they are accepted.  That instills a sense of trust and faith in me.

Also, if you need God to explain how something was created, you still need to explain what created God, by the very same argument.

I'll pick it up at the library when I can...but until I have read it, I'll respond to the last thing you said.

God did not have a begining. He is infinite, and outside of time. In another dimension. He created humans in his image, making us also creative.

Neither a creator god being nor the cause of the big bang can be proved, but I think it makes much more sense that order came from order rather than randomness. Creativity came from creativity rather than chaos. I am fine with believing in something far larger, for more intligent, and far more infinite than what I can witness or prove.

If you say that since I need a cause for God because I need a cause for a big bang, you are missing something: they are not the same, and cannot be judged or proven by the same methods.

God, by definition, needs no begining. Yet a bang does, by definition, need a beginning (or, a cause). The big bang is a result. An occurance. God is a concious being. You cannot apply the same things to both of them as they are very different ideas. That is, unless you believe that the big bang had no beginning also, and chose when to act. In which case, you have found yourself a god of your own.

[Coffee Vampire]

How am I wrong when there exists more evidence of free will than determinism? I am not ignorant of your ideals, I simply choose to believe in free will as I have seen proof of it more than the ideals of determinism. 

For one example, are you calling the millions of people whom have turned themselves over to a higher power in order to help 'cure' their addiction problems wrong? Proof is that it HAS worked for millions of people worldwide, universally despite the disparity of the members of AA.  It's much easier to believe in the absence of the power of will than it is to embrace and evolve from it. 

As far as circles goes, yeah apparently that is happening here. Once someone believes something is true, it's impossible to change their mindset unless they 'choose' to accept the possibility of other alternative ways to think.  I've always been open to new ideals and thoughts, as it is the best way I know of to grow and enlighten myself.

I agree with you, everyone should be open minded. Now we must be careful with the term "open minded", because some people say that people are "close-minded" just because they have arrived at a conclusion. But I think you are describing actual open-mindedness: to consider others' thoughts even AFTER you have come to a conclusion.

Which is why I'm about to go pick up jester's book!

[BlackJester]

Sorry everyone, I'm off to have dinner with a Catholic Priest. 🍝
Back later.

[smokin terry]

I like futurama's take on it. An arguements over creation or evolution happens the professor leaves to a barren wasteland of a planet add robots. The robots evolve. They ague over creation verses evolution. The professor tells them that he created them. Lead robot scientist leaves (she was anti creation). Professor goes back to earth and then him and the talking ape that he was argueing with come to the conclusion of creator makes->creations grow then leave->creations becomes creators->repeat.

[Mlerner12]

Personally, I feel a person should not believe in an "ism". They should believe in themselves. To quote John Lennon, "I do not believe in the Beatles. I believe in myself.""

[Thetrufflehunter]

Personally, I feel a person should not believe in an "ism". They should believe in themselves. To quote John Lennon, "I do not believe in the Beatles. I believe in myself.""

2 YEARS, mlerner. 2 @&$!?&@$ YEARS. Let it stay dead.

[PapaBudz]

Personally, I feel a person should not believe in an "ism". They should believe in themselves. To quote John Lennon, "I do not believe in the Beatles. I believe in myself.""

Personal record?

[Mlerner12]

Personally, I feel a person should not believe in an "ism". They should believe in themselves. To quote John Lennon, "I do not believe in the Beatles. I believe in myself.""

Personal record?

No, one bump dated back to 2011.

[MuggyWuggy]

Do you believe in love after love?