Abusing PWs

[Avodroc13]

Through {March of the Machines}, {Mycosynth Lattice}, and {Experiment Kraj}, I got my planeswalker to be a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it. Is that legal? If so, can Kraj play the abilities? How often?

From my understanding, I can do the loyalty abilities through Kraj as many times as id like due to it not being a PW itself. My friend thinks otherwise. Can someone please provide proper rulings.

My reasoning behind it: The "one activated ability per turn" limit is built into the planeswalker type, not the abilities, so Kraj can play the abilities as many times as he likes. And while loyalty is a characteristic that only planeswalkers have, loyalty counters are fair game for anything. Right?

[InfinitiveDivinity]

Through {March of the Machines}, {Mycosynth Lattice}, and {Experiment Kraj}, I got my planeswalker to be a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it. Is that legal? If so, can Kraj play the abilities? How often?

From my understanding, I can do the loyalty abilities through Kraj as many times as id like due to it not being a PW itself. My friend thinks otherwise. Can someone please provide proper rulings.

My reasoning behind it: The "one activated ability per turn" limit is built into the planeswalker type, not the abilities, so Kraj can play the abilities as many times as he likes. And while loyalty is a characteristic that only planeswalkers have, loyalty counters are fair game for anything. Right?

Woah, that is very interesting, I've never encountered that interaction before. I'm posting just to follow this, I'm extremely interested.

[Kaylesh]

I have read about this one. The interaction was cause for a rules change back in the day, concerning loyalty abilities.

[Indianslayer]

Sadly you can not go infinite anymore

209.2.: An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of that permanent's loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, "Loyalty Abilities."

Also rule 606.3. is similar

[Avodroc13]

Sadly you can not go infinite anymore

209.2.: An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of that permanent's loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, "Loyalty Abilities."

Also rule 606.3. is similar

Planeswalkers have loyalty abilities and as such the loyalty abilities of strictly the planeswalkers can only be activated once per turn. Doing it with the Kraj is bypassing this rule.

[Kaylesh]

Sadly you can not go infinite anymore

209.2.: An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of that permanent's loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, "Loyalty Abilities."

Also rule 606.3. is similar

Planeswalkers have loyalty abilities and as such the loyalty abilities of strictly the planeswalkers can only be activated once per turn. Doing it with the Kraj is bypassing this rule.

The ability Kraj can activate is a loyalty ability, since it has a loyalty symbol in its cost. The rule was specifically changed after the combo was discovered. Before that the rule said you can activate a loyalty ability of a planeswalker only once each turn, creating the loophole.
It is closed now. Only one loyalty ability off Kraj each turn. You can still mess around with infinite (loyalty) counters though, by getting a +1/+1 on  {Gilder Bairn} & animated {gilded lotus}....

EDIT: tx {{Indianslayer}} for providing the rules, didn't have time to actually paste it in.

[Avodroc13]

Sadly you can not go infinite anymore

209.2.: An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of that permanent's loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, "Loyalty Abilities."

Also rule 606.3. is similar

Planeswalkers have loyalty abilities and as such the loyalty abilities of strictly the planeswalkers can only be activated once per turn. Doing it with the Kraj is bypassing this rule.

The ability Kraj can activate is a loyalty ability, since it has a loyalty symbol in its cost. The rule was specifically changed after the combo was discovered. Before that the rule said you can activate a loyalty ability of a planeswalker only once each turn, creating the loophole.
It is closed now. Only one loyalty ability off Kraj each turn. You can still mess around with infinite (loyalty) counters though, by getting a +1/+1 on  {Gilder Bairn} & animated {gilded lotus}....

Bummer. How about:

{Myr Welder} taps to imprint {Molten-Tail Masticore}. Then, using the Masticore's first ability, it exiles {Scrib Nibblers}. Then because you exiled Scrib Nibblers using the ability of Myr Welder, it now has its abilities as well. After this, all that is done is tapping Myr Welder to exile the top card of my own library where I know a planeswalker is, either using scry, {Noxious Revival}, etc. Now Myr Welder has exiled a planeswalker and thus would get all of its activated abilities, which according to the above rule are considered activated abilities and thus are acquired by Myr Welder.

Is this the same as the Kraj due to the rule change?

[Kaylesh]

Sadly you can not go infinite anymore

209.2.: An activated ability with a loyalty symbol in its cost is a loyalty ability. Loyalty abilities follow special rules: A player may activate a loyalty ability of a permanent he or she controls any time he or she has priority and the stack is empty during a main phase of his or her turn, but only if none of that permanent's loyalty abilities have been activated that turn. See rule 606, "Loyalty Abilities."

Also rule 606.3. is similar

Planeswalkers have loyalty abilities and as such the loyalty abilities of strictly the planeswalkers can only be activated once per turn. Doing it with the Kraj is bypassing this rule.

The ability Kraj can activate is a loyalty ability, since it has a loyalty symbol in its cost. The rule was specifically changed after the combo was discovered. Before that the rule said you can activate a loyalty ability of a planeswalker only once each turn, creating the loophole.
It is closed now. Only one loyalty ability off Kraj each turn. You can still mess around with infinite (loyalty) counters though, by getting a +1/+1 on  {Gilder Bairn} & animated {gilded lotus}....

Bummer. How about:

{Myr Welder} taps to imprint {Molten-Tail Masticore}. Then, using the Masticore's first ability, it exiles {Scrib Nibblers}. Then because you exiled Scrib Nibblers using the ability of Myr Welder, it now has its abilities as well. After this, all that is done is tapping Myr Welder to exile the top card of my own library where I know a planeswalker is, either using scry, {Noxious Revival}, etc. Now Myr Welder has exiled a planeswalker and thus would get all of its activated abilities, which according to the above rule are considered activated abilities and thus are acquired by Myr Welder.

Is this the same as the Kraj due to the rule change?

As soon as the ability is a loyalty ability, you can only use one per turn per permanent at sorcery speed.
Any permanent that acquires loyalty abilities is bound to this rule.

EDIT: I do like the interaction of welder & Scrib though. You can steal any activated ability while milling due to the wording of {myr welder}.

[Avodroc13]

Thank you.

Well... This is unfortunate. You have no idea how much I was hoping this would work.

[InfinitiveDivinity]

Very good reads. +1s to you all for this, I really liked the question and the responses were extremely helpful.

[Kaylesh]

And another great one from {{Indianslayer}}...
http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?topic=47951.0