Order of things

Started by Double-O-Scotch, June 23, 2015, 12:16:10 PM

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Double-O-Scotch

Just looking for some clarification. If I mill my opponent for 10 cards, and the fourth card put in the graveyard is a {blightsteel colossus}, when does it get shuffled into the library? Do you wait for all ten cards or is the milling interrupted by shuffling the colossus in and then continuing the mill afterwards?

Remillo

Blightsteel Colossus has what is known as a "replacement effect".  These ability start with the word 'If', and replace whatever action is stated.  In the case or Colossus, it replaces the action of going to the graveyard with being shuffled into the library.  This happens no matter what else is happening at the time.  The Mill will be 'interrupted' by the colossus returning itself to the library, and then it will continue.  Also note that this means the robot never hits the graveyard, so effects that card about creatures going to the graveyard from the library (Sidisi, etc) won't see it or trigger.

rarehuntertay

So no using  {Surgical Extraction} on it like you could with the Eldrazi Titans then?

Double-O-Scotch

So just so we're clear, if I have a card in my library that "when it goes to the graveyard from anywhere, shuffle shuffle", I can't get milled down to an empty library. Correct?

Same example, if I only have 4 cards left in my library and I get milled for 10, colossus is the fourth card milled again, and after some rediculous running commentary it will also be the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th mill card aswell. Am I understanding this correctly?

rarehuntertay

Yes and no.
{Blightsteel Colossus} says "if it goes" in which case it'll reshuffle immediately then the milling continues. (If I understand  Remillo correctly)
You will never mill to zero with Blightsteel in your deck.

Something like {Emrakul, the Aeons Torn} says "when it goes" which creates a trigger that goes on the stack after the milling finishes resolving.
You can in theory be milled to zero with these cards.

Remillo

Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on June 23, 2015, 12:31:35 PM
So just so we're clear, if I have a card in my library that "when it goes to the graveyard from anywhere, shuffle shuffle", I can't get milled down to an empty library. Correct?

Same example, if I only have 4 cards left in my library and I get milled for 10, colossus is the fourth card milled again, and after some rediculous running commentary it will also be the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th mill card aswell. Am I understanding this correctly?

The first paragraph is incorrect, second is correct.

The difference between the Robot and an Eldrazi is the difference between Replacement Effects and Triggered Abilities, which is the difference between "If" and "When".  If it starts with "If" ({Blightsteel Colossus}, {Progenitus}, etc), the action of going to the graveyard is replaced and the card never touches the graveyard at all, since that action did not happen (because it was replaced).  If it starts with "When" (Eldrazi, {Worldspine Wurm}, etc), then it's a trigger that has to use the stack to resolve and shuffle it back in, since the 'When' means that that event (going to the graveyard) has to have happened.  In the case of milling one of those, that trigger will go on the stack to resolve after whatever spell or ability is milling you finishes resolving (and yes, there will be an opening for your opponent to hit you with a Draw 1)

TL,DR: "If" replaces the action, "When" is a trigger because of the action.

Double-O-Scotch

Thank you, sir. As always, you are a gentleman, a scholar, and most helpful. +1 regards.

Kaylesh

Quote from: Noblellama on June 23, 2015, 01:14:25 PM
So if I want to beat my brothers really annoying mill deck (which has no offensive capability, just defensive and milling) then drop 4 blightsteel and 4 progenitus into my deck.

He could mill/hump my deck but ill never "die" because ill have to discard any cards over 7 so I have to chuck 1, it becomes my new deck, repeat?
Say you'll have 4 robots and 4 proggies, they would end up being your library if you are hit by say a mill 60.
Those can't go to grave, but there is still an opening once you've hit that 8th card by forcing an additions draw on your turn.

Avodroc13

What about {Kozilek, Butcher of Truth}? Does its ability use the stack?

Avodroc13

Quote from: Noblellama on June 24, 2015, 10:07:56 PM
Quote from: Avodroc13 on June 24, 2015, 09:52:50 PM
What about {Kozilek, Butcher of Truth}? Does its ability use the stack?


OH SO MUCH WIN, that link uses the {Jhovall Queen} for the card image!!!!!!!

I wish I could +1 myself. Unintentional win!

Remillo

Quote from: Avodroc13 on June 24, 2015, 09:52:50 PM
What about {Kozilek, Butcher of Truth}? Does its ability use the stack?

It does.  Note the 'When' at the start.  This means it's a triggered ability that uses the stack to resolve.

Avodroc13

Quote from: Remillo on June 25, 2015, 01:06:02 AM
Quote from: Avodroc13 on June 24, 2015, 09:52:50 PM
What about {Kozilek, Butcher of Truth}? Does its ability use the stack?

It does.  Note the 'When' at the start.  This means it's a triggered ability that uses the stack to resolve.
Can it be prevented with {Trickbind}?

griffin131

Yes.
It's a triggered ability and Trickbind counters those.