Opal Champion and Ixidron

[Kaylesh]

What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?

All creatures would be 1/1 with no abilities, since humility is already in play

Exactly. It is argued that the effect turning the Enchantment into the creature works the same way..

What enchantment is making it a 3/3 First Strike?
The face down card with no abilities?
How is something that has no abilities changing it's P/T and giving an ability?

{opal champion} has a triggered ability that creates an effect that lasts indefinitely. It is said that this effect exists independent from the card, as long as the affected card remains in play, so even if flipped.

[Splicer]

What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?

All creatures would be 1/1 with no abilities, since humility is already in play

Exactly. It is argued that the effect turning the Enchantment into the creature works the same way..

What enchantment is making it a 3/3 First Strike?
The face down card with no abilities?
How is something that has no abilities changing it's P/T and giving an ability?

{opal champion} has a triggered ability that creates an effect that lasts indefinitely. It is said that this effect exists independent from the card, as long as the affected card remains in play, so even if flipped.

All face down creatures are 2/2s with no abillities.

[Kaylesh]

No disrespect intended, but I got irked by the two different versions I heard, so I took this to judges chat.

Turns out being face down is applied just after copiable effects, and the triggered ability will function in the appropriate layers, thus changing the 2/2 into a 3/3 first strike knight, just as a giant growth would make a creature 5/5, if the creature was turned face down while giant growth was affecting it.

Now I really want to make an Ixidron/sleeper combo deck...

[griffin131]

What if you had {humility} out and someone played {ixidron}?

All creatures would be 1/1 with no abilities, since humility is already in play

Exactly. It is argued that the effect turning the Enchantment into the creature works the same way..

What enchantment is making it a 3/3 First Strike?
The face down card with no abilities?
How is something that has no abilities changing it's P/T and giving an ability?

{opal champion} has a triggered ability that creates an effect that lasts indefinitely. It is said that this effect exists independent from the card, as long as the affected card remains in play, so even if flipped.

It's not independent from the card - it can't be.
Independent from the card would mean even if the card is gone - we know that's not true.

Anyone saying it works over Ixidron is just wrong - there's no rules showing it's true.
It's a single trigger that changes the card into a creature. What you're saying is that if I give it a -1/-1 counter, it's still a 3/3 because reasons.

[particle]

Why would {ixidron} still be flipping things if humility is on the field?

[rarehuntertay]

ok, Kaleo says that this is how it goes down.

{Opal Champion} is an enchantment, {Humility} on field, Opponent casts {Ixidron}
Opal champion says when opponent casts, so he turns into a creature before Ixi hits the field
Opal champ is a 3/3 FS until Humility sees him (which is immediately) and says nope, your a 1/1 with nothing)
Ixi enters field and flips the champ as an ETB ability, Champ flips and is a 2/2 until humility reminds him he isn't (which is immediately)
Ixi is now on battlefield and is reduced to a 1/1 by humility.

Kaleo says that there is no way the rules can be correctly interpreted that leaves the Opal Champion as a 3/3 with first strike.

A good article on Humility
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/lesson-humility/

[particle]

Why would {ixidron} still be flipping things if humility is on the field?

im guessing because it says "as it enters" which means humility hasn't effected it yet?
Im wondering if I heard him right, ill get some clarification on that part

Found this: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/478467-humility-and-ixidron

So far this is correct.

[rarehuntertay]

The key is in the wording. "As ~ enters the battlefield" is not the same as "When ~ enters the battlefield"
"As ~ enters the battlefield" will still work, as it is not triggered, static or activated.
What blows my mind is how {magus of the moon} and {painter's servant} still work with humility...

[particle]

The key is in the wording. "As ~ enters the battlefield" is not the same as "When ~ enters the battlefield"
"As ~ enters the battlefield" will still work, as it is not triggered, static or activated.
What blows my mind is how {magus of the moon} and {painter's servant} still work with humility...

Gonna leave this here: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/lesson-humility/

[Kaylesh]

Errm, somehow {humility} came into this set-up. I agree with Kaleo that with Humi on the field, champion becomes a 1/1.
Could you ask Kaleo what would happen without humility? Because that was the original question.
Humility came in as a comparative, as it does the same thing, change around power/toughness and abilities after copiable effects.

[Remillo]

In the end, a face-down creature is still always a 2/2 with no abilities, name, color, mana cost, or creature types.

As for adding Humility, TimeStamps are what you use.  If you have Humility out BEFORE the Champion becomes a creature, the Champion will end up being a 3/3 with First Strike.  This is because the time stamp causing it to be tha size with that ability is NEWER than the stamp saying all creatures are 1/1 with no abilities.  They are two effects trying to modify the same thing (setting the p/t and granting/losing abilities), so the newest one wins.  Same thing happens if you, say, animate a {Gideon Jura} with his 0 ability.  If your Champion became a creature and THEN humility hit the board, it would be a 1/1 for the same reason: newer time stamp wins.