trinisphere

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thought i'd start a new topic and stop threadjacking.
if your opponent controls an untapped {trinisphere}, can you play {chalice of the void} on 0?

[Kaylesh]

601.2e: The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

As I understand it, you would announce your {chalice of the void}, choose 0 for x. CMC would be 0. Then any effects modifying costs would apply. Let's say there are none, total cost becomes 0. At that point, {trinisphere} kicks in, making total cost {3}

[redwolv]

601.2e: The player determines the total cost of the spell. Usually this is just the mana cost. Some spells have additional or alternative costs. Some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay, or may provide other alternative costs. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost or alternative cost (as determined in rule 601.2b), plus all additional costs and cost increases, and minus all cost reductions. If the mana component of the total cost is reduced to nothing by cost reduction effects, it is considered to be {0}. It can't be reduced to less than {0}. Once the total cost is determined, any effects that directly affect the total cost are applied. Then the resulting total cost becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

As I understand it, you would announce your {chalice of the void}, choose 0 for x. CMC would be 0. Then any effects modifying costs would apply. Let's say there are none, total cost becomes 0. At that point, {trinisphere} kicks in, making total cost {3}

Correct!

Also if X was 1 you would still have to pay {3} but if X was 2 you would just pay the normal  {4}

[Maxpayne03]

Am I right to think that {Treasure Cruise} cost 3 mana even if you delve 7 cards?

[Remillo]

Am I right to think that {Treasure Cruise} cost 3 mana even if you delve 7 cards?

Under the old rulings of Delve, this would be the case, as it used to reduce the cost of the spell for each card exiled.  However, under the new ruling, it actually turns exiling cards in to a form of mana payment, rather than cost reduction.  If you cast Treasure Cruise, Trinisphere will see it at a Mana cost of 7U.  Then, when you go to pay costs, you can exile up to 7 cards to pay for the mana.


702.65. Delve

702.65a Delve is a static ability that functions while the spell with delve is on the stack. "Delve" means "For each generic mana in this spell's total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana." The delve ability isn't an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve is determined.

702.65b Multiple instances of delve on the same spell are redundant.

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ok follow up question.
ipponent has an untapped {trinisphere}, i have 5 basic lands, one of each type.
can i play {engineered explosives} on 1 or 2?

[redwolv]

ok follow up question.
ipponent has an untapped {trinisphere}, i have 5 basic lands, one of each type.
can i play {engineered explosives} on 1 or 2?

You can make X 1 or 2, but trinisphere would just bump it to {3} again. Resulting in you being forced to play 3 charge counters on it.

[Maxpayne03]

Thanks Remillo. I have a side question for Delve cards; can it use delve to pay for additional cost such as from {Thalia, Guardian of Thraben},  {Lodestone Golem}, {Sphere of Resistance}, etc

[Kaylesh]

ok follow up question.
ipponent has an untapped {trinisphere}, i have 5 basic lands, one of each type.
can i play {engineered explosives} on 1 or 2?

You can make X 1 or 2, but trinisphere would just bump it to {3} again. Resulting in you being forced to play 3 charge counters on it.

Actually, you would pay {3}, but since you chose 1 or 2 for X, you would place 1 or 2 charge counters. Just like with cost reduction, choose x=4, but mana cost would become 3 if you have a card that reduces costs by {1}.

[redwolv]

ok follow up question.
ipponent has an untapped {trinisphere}, i have 5 basic lands, one of each type.
can i play {engineered explosives} on 1 or 2?

You can make X 1 or 2, but trinisphere would just bump it to {3} again. Resulting in you being forced to play 3 charge counters on it.

Actually, you would pay {3}, but since you chose 1 or 2 for X, you would place 1 or 2 charge counters. Just like with cost reduction, choose x=4, but mana cost would become 3 if you have a card that reduces costs by {1}.

That is not how it works. The card is running off of sunburst. It's cost is X so that way you can pick how much mana to play in case you don't have all 5 colors. The counters care about the color of the mana used not what X is declared as. In his question he explained he has one mana of each color. The result would go like this.
X = 2
Trinisphere says <3 cmc is now {3}
As he only has one of each color is forced to tap some 3 mana combo of {R}{B}{U}{W}{G}
Sunburst sees he used 3 different colors of mana and puts 3 counters on {engineered explosives}.

[Kaylesh]

Thanks Remillo. I have a side question for Delve cards; can it use delve to pay for additional cost such as from {Thalia, Guardian of Thraben},  {Lodestone Golem}, {Sphere of Resistance}, etc

The rules say for each generic mana in the total cost. This is after added and substracted costs. So you can.

[Kaylesh]

ok follow up question.
ipponent has an untapped {trinisphere}, i have 5 basic lands, one of each type.
can i play {engineered explosives} on 1 or 2?

You can make X 1 or 2, but trinisphere would just bump it to {3} again. Resulting in you being forced to play 3 charge counters on it.

Actually, you would pay {3}, but since you chose 1 or 2 for X, you would place 1 or 2 charge counters. Just like with cost reduction, choose x=4, but mana cost would become 3 if you have a card that reduces costs by {1}.

That is not how it works. The card is running off of sunburst. It's cost is X so that way you can pick how much mana to play in case you don't have all 5 colors. The counters care about the color of the mana used not what X is declared as. In his question he explained he has one mana of each color. The result would go like this.
X = 2
Trinisphere says <3 cmc is now {3}
As he only has one of each color is forced to tap some 3 mana combo of {R}{B}{U}{W}{G}
Sunburst sees he used 3 different colors of mana and puts 3 counters on {engineered explosives}.

Totally right. Misread the card there. Apologies all around.

[Remillo]

To confirm, yes, Delve can be used to pay for 'tax' effects like Lodestone Golem or Thalia for the same reason you can use it to pay for Trinisphere: Delve now functions as a form of mana payment rather than a cost reduction.

As for Sunburst, it checks ALL mana spent to cast the spell, not just what you pay for the corner.  If you cast a {Pentad Prism} with a Thalia on the board and pay {WUG}, it will see three different colors and come in with 3 counters.