Thoughts on land hate in EDH?

[MuggyWuggy]

I mean once you play this EDH land destro deck, your friends will kill you first

[Dudecore]

Lands are a resource, so is life total, hand and libraries. I know plenty of decks that play {Armageddon} to assure a win, and they're not "land destruction" decks exactly.

I use my land destruction for tempo. I think players over react to it. They'd rather have the creature hit the board and get {Doom Blade} rather then {Cancel}. There is a bit of disconnect in the psyche of Magic participants.

If you think of Lands as cards in hand, it would be just as bad to be forced to discard one. But it is only when that card is on the battlefield do people think it is worth something. Many players don't remember Mass Land Destruction in Standard. Imagine a meta with zero creature wipes. If you showed up running {Wrath of God}, you'd see complaints about that too.

Many Commander players think that ramp, ramp, ramp, big spell is all EDH is all about. That is "fun" to them. They don't care about a balanced format that punishes players overextending. More casual players and especially those who haven't been exposed to eternal formats (a large portion of Commanders player base I presume) don't really even consider a deck that can attack greedy mana bases. When exposed to it, instead of trying to build around it and fight those strategies, they complain. A LOT. Because it's easier.

I would wonder why they'd rather have an unbalanced game where you can run 3 colors with minimal drawbacks rather then a game that challenges you to think differently. A case can be made that maybe mass land destruction slows the game down, but their exclusion only benefits faster decks or other cheap combo decks. Why should they get a buff and tempo decks get a nerf? If it's really about making games faster, ban {Karn Liberated} and lower the life total.

[Dudecore]

I will always refer to this when talking about Magic players. In my experience nothing makes players all happy, and I can't spend my time worrying about it. I know of playgroups that ban all Planeswalkers, playgroups that ban extra turns, groups that gang up on aggro players, groups that gang up on Voltron players, groups that ban tutors, groups that think combo is unfair. You get the point.

[Gocougs509]

But restarting the game after 3 hours is so much fun! 

Lmao, every time I've done that people just scoop...

[Spikepit]

I will always refer to this when talking about Magic players.

Bahahahaaaa! Got a good laugh outta this! There's one guy in my occasional play group, this is his biography. His other catch phrase is 'stop your whinging!' We call him Ronny...

[Langku]

I haven't attempted an LD build since my deck building skills matured past "INCLUDEALLTHECOOLCARDS!!!")

What are you talking about? This IS the pinnacle of build maturity. 
-----------------------------------------------
It's important to pace the game so that everyone at the table gets to play their piece. Let the Johnnies combo & oddball their way to a loss. Let the Timmies take a few swings with their fatties as they succumb to ther opponents. And THEN let the Spikes land wipe the table around turn 8.

Good times for all.

[MuggyWuggy]

Don't get so mad if it happens to you.

I mean you're either playing with friends or you're at a commander tournament at an open or GP and $20 in credit is on the line.

[Gocougs509]

Lands are a resource, so is life total, hand and libraries. I know plenty of decks that play {Armageddon} to assure a win, and they're not "land destruction" decks exactly.

I use my land destruction for tempo. I think players over react to it. They'd rather have the creature hit the board and get {Doom Blade} rather then {Cancel}. There is a bit of disconnect in the psyche of Magic participants.

If you think of Lands as cards in hand, it would be just as bad to be forced to discard one. But it is only when that card is on the battlefield do people think it is worth something. Many players don't remember Mass Land Destruction in Standard. Imagine a meta with zero creature wipes. If you showed up running {Wrath of God}, you'd see complaints about that too.

Many Commander players think that ramp, ramp, ramp, big spell is all EDH is all about. That is "fun" to them. They don't care about a balanced format that punishes players overextending. More casual players and especially those who haven't been exposed to eternal formats (a large portion of Commanders player base I presume) don't really even consider a deck that can attack greedy mana bases. When exposed to it, instead of trying to build around it and fight those strategies, they complain. A LOT. Because it's easier.

I would wonder why they'd rather have an unbalanced game where you can run 3 colors with minimal drawbacks rather then a game that challenges you to think differently. A case can be made that maybe mass land destruction slows the game down, but their exclusion only benefits faster decks or other cheap combo decks. Why should they get a buff and tempo decks get a nerf? If it's really about making games faster, ban {Karn Liberated} and lower the life total.

Also, on a personal note, I wish everyone would stop with the pendantic, condescending argument that countering a creature is the same as killing it immediately with a kill spell. It's not, it really isn't. Every color can interact with a kill spell, there are lots of activated abilities and instants that can save it. Kill spells don't nerf etb or triggered abilities. With counterspells it's either run your own, play one of the red cards that hates blue (vexing shusher, Red Elemental Blast, Gutteral Response, etc.), or discard it. The answers are so comparatively narrow and it's time people stopped pretending they're equal.

Yeah, pretty much this. Couldn't agree more.

That is why {red elemental blast} is probably my favorite card in the game!

[MuggyWuggy]

Don't get so mad if it happens to you.

I mean you're either playing with friends or you're at a commander tournament at an open or GP and $20 in credit is on the line.

I would never play EDH at a GP. If I wanted to see Ad Nauseum vomit out a deck on turn 2 or 3 or watch Angry Hermit dredge up a win I would play vintage.

Sorry the scenario is impossible in your world

[Dudecore]

Counters and Kill spells aren't literally the same thing, but they're effectively doing the same thing. One stops EtB effects, the other has potential to clear more then 1 creature effectively. Blue also "interacts" with spells too, something kill spells do not do, which is a good thing if for no other reason but to keep it "interactive". They're both card disadvantage. Wouldn't etb triggers preventing the creature from being killed non-interactive?

Counters = stop a single threat.
Kill spell = stop a single threat/multiple threats.

The great thing about Magic is the multiple ways on offer to do essentially the same thing. This thinly veiled, cheesy concept of "interaction" is the Commander darling of the "some strategies are unfun" mentality. It is just not found in evidence. Blue cannot destroy creatures, red cannot destroy enchantments, white does not draw cards, green can't fly, black doesn't do something... its the way the game is.

Mass Land Destruction might not be for you or your playgroup, ban it. I would advise against it, but who cares what I think? I can't make anyone have fun.The idea that since every color can be involved with dealing with creatures is to miss the point entirely. 1 card type does not have manifest destiny over the others. Creature cards are not the alpha and omega of cards. Play around the threat of counters or try baiting counters. There are 4 players, counters are actually not even that good.

[LadyGrixis]

Which is why I said "I personally don't like land hate"

This is also why I love Magic; so much of it is left up to your own personal flavor.

[MuggyWuggy]

I was more so referring to your comment about the idea of never playing commander side event at a GP

[Dudecore]

The argument can be made that removal is on a much higher level then Counters, especially in multiplayer. I'm just suggesting that they're different, not that one is better or worse. My previous comments reflect my belief that in a game of rock, paper, scissors you would not want to ban scissors. Magic is like a complex, multi tiered spider Web of possibilities. It is the fun of the game. It's been described as "playing chess but you pick your own pieces".

I don't appreciate the superiority others feel over strategies like Land Destruction. I've been known to not articulate my feelings properly, or be confrontational, but my point still stands. Every deck needs a weakness, every strategy needs a weakness. I don't see the point of taking the piss out of land destruction and referring to Johnny combo decks as the only true source of fun in the format. As though it was the definitive way to play. It's wrong.

I think that it's in everyone's best interest to keep the format fun for themselves and their friends - but understand that limiting the strategies your exposed to is probably limiting your fun also.

[MuggyWuggy]

Strip mines happen.

{Stripmine} and {crucible of worlds} by t3/4.

Diiiiiiiiick

[Aladormax]

I believe although EDH is the land of possibility, land hate is simply one way to take the most obscene mana bases and tone them back slightly. All colors have some access to hate, and it IS unfun to play against land hate, but people say the same about almost everything else. Have a combo that wins, insert complaint here. Want another turn or two, start the whining. I've even met people that complain about playing against less obtuse things, like newer players, or testing a new deck idea.

TL, dr. Land hate is simply one of magic's whipping boys because of people complaining.
End rant.