Monday, August 25th

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

I don't believe you read the article. It isn't "too bad for you" it is "too bad Wizards made this promise". Legacy is still affordable for anyone who wants to play online. You want to play in paper, proxy the lands for your friends. You want to join a tournament? Buy the cards and consider them expensive golf club. Legacy events have cash prices, if the way to obtain those cash prizes is to spend money on a deck - then that is what you have to do. Legacy can't possibly be made cheap enough that everyone would be happy.

It sucks, and it effects everyone, not just Legacy. There is nothing that can be done at this point, so we've got to move on.

Exactly, completely unrealistic. The golf clubs analogy just shows how out of touch the author is with real life. Most people don't have hundreds of dollars to waste on golf clubs, let alone Magic cards. This isn't a case of, "well everyone has to make some sacrifices, " this is a case of, "well you don't eat for the next 8 months, you might be able to afford legacy." Wizards could break the promise at any point. The easiest way to do this is a to an "unaffiliated" company print the cards, they choose not to because they prefer to please the collectors over the players.

It's actually a great analogy.
Do you have to have top of the line golf clubs to play golf?  No, they just help your game, and if you want to get competitive you should be at the top of your game.

ABUR lands fit into that statement perfectly. Why should Wizards break a promise - and get a lot of community hate from not just collectors - just to satisfy some people who likely wouldn't compete in Legacy anyway?

No, the analogy is more like, "you don't need golf clubs, just play with a baseball bat." Nothing comes close to ABUR dual lands, if were you to try playing competitively with shocklands, its like starting every game 8-11 life. You would never have a chance, just as you would not have a chance at a golf tournament with a baseball bat. Also, the community would not hate the decision, the grand majority would welcome it. The ABUR dual lands might not even go down, because of the increase in demand and obvious preference for original cards in the Magic community. The only people who would be angered would be collectors, who honestly shouldn't even be thought of when Wizards makes decisions.

Considering that serious collectors are at the top when it comes to sales of high dollar staples in the secondary market, Wizards wouldn't just be pissing off them, but also the distributors of the market themselves. Many game stores (as has already been mentioned) would lose hundreds, some even thousands, of dollars in inventory in the blink of an eye. At that point it's literally effecting the lives of store owners and the health of our LGS scene. To say that prices would not drop is a bold statement. Reprinting shocklands helped break the barrier into modern, as such, prices on both new and old suffered, some say for the better, which I do agree on. Although, when it comes to ABUR duals, that is a whole other level of greenbacks. $40-50 cards dropping to $10 is reasonable, if a set contained reprints of real duals and other legacy staples, you can bet you ass that's set will be ripped off the shelves in a frenzy by hungry players. A massive influx like this would most definitely effect their older counterparts.

I didn't say they wouldn't drop in price, I said they may not. The originals (and especially the Alpha ones) would always be looked at as collectors items, even if they were reprinted. As for the "ripping off the shelves," I know that would happen, and it would be a driving force in keeping the legacy staples from completely plummeting (just as it keep Modern staples up with Modern Masters). As for game stores, they might lose some money, but very few "mom and pop" stores own these huge cards, most of the companies that would lose money are companies such as Starcitygames.com that could easily take the hit (assuming there even is one).

[Dudecore]

If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.

There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.

[InfinitiveDivinity]

I didn't say they wouldn't drop in price, I said they may not. The originals (and especially the Alpha ones) would always be looked at as collectors items, even if they were reprinted. As for the "ripping off the shelves," I know that would happen, and it would be a driving force in keeping the legacy staples from completely plummeting (just as it keep Modern staples up with Modern Masters).

Modern Masters allowed modern staples to maintain their value due to an extremely limited print run. If you are stating that they do the same, you are going to have some outstanding prices on packs and boxes of this sealed product. If you are asking for a reprint in an expert set, you are asking for a butchering of value in older versions.

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

I didn't say they wouldn't drop in price, I said they may not. The originals (and especially the Alpha ones) would always be looked at as collectors items, even if they were reprinted. As for the "ripping off the shelves," I know that would happen, and it would be a driving force in keeping the legacy staples from completely plummeting (just as it keep Modern staples up with Modern Masters).

Modern Masters allowed modern staples to maintain their value due to an extremely limited print run. If you are stating that they do the same, you are going to have some outstanding prices on packs and boxes of this sealed product. If you are asking for a reprint in an expert set, you are asking for a butchering of value in older versions.

I'm not asking for a reprint in a Expert set, or even $5 ABUR lands. I am asking for a Legacy Masters product that has the ABUR duals settle around $50-100, and increasing the supply of legacy staples, therefore increasing the number of people who can play legacy. I have no problem with $50 cards, but $300 are way out of the realm of reality for the vast majority of people who play Magic. I spent $1000 on my Modern deck, but I can't spend $5000 on a legacy deck.

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.

There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.

I believe the promise you are referring to is the promise Wizards made when they created the Mythic Rare rarity claiming, "they will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards." Looking back at the Titans, {Baneslayer Angel}, {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}, {Tarmogoyf}, {Dark Confidant}, {Vendilion Clique}, {Kiora, the Crashing Wave}, {Elspeth, Sun's Champion}, {Brimaz, King of Oreskos}, {Sphinx's Revelation}, {Liliana of the Veil}, {Voice of Resurgance}, {Blood Baron of Vizkopa}....yeah, I'm not sure sure they kept that promise.

[Dudecore]

If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.

There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.

I believe the promise you are referring to is the promise Wizards made when they created the Mythic Rare rarity claiming, "they will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards." Looking back at the Titans, {Baneslayer Angel}, {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}, {Tarmogoyf}, {Dark Confidant}, {Vendilion Clique}....yeah, I'm not sure sure they kept that promise.

Those aren't chase-cards that they're referring to. A chase-card would be something like a card that was only available in foil, and at Mythic Rarity, which was extremely powerful. Foils in MtG are just duplicates of the non-foil version. I've re-read the Mythic Rare introduction, and I don't see any promises or anything that sounds like the way people make it out to be. Although I do recall, like you, Mythic Rarity being for cards they don't want to be drafted constantly, because they had unique effects or they were very powerful, which would effect limited (and lets be honest, sells more packs).

[Falcon182]

If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.

There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.

I believe the promise you are referring to is the promise Wizards made when they created the Mythic Rare rarity claiming, "they will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards." Looking back at the Titans, {Baneslayer Angel}, {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}, {Tarmogoyf}, {Dark Confidant}, {Vendilion Clique}, {Kiora, the Crashing Wave}, {Elspeth, Sun's Champion}, {Brimaz, King of Oreskos}, {Sphinx's Revelation}, {Liliana of the Veil}, {Voice of Resurgance}, {Blood Baron of Vizkopa}....yeah, I'm not sure sure they kept that promise.

Goyf, clique and confidant were all originally printed at rare.

[Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth]

If Wizard's breaks their promise about the Reserve list, next catastrophe that happens (to which we might not understand the nature of currently) we have no reason to take their word for it. Wizards wants to be a company that keeps their promise, and that is being viewed as a horrible thing. Magic will always be "pay to win" in some sense, Tarmogoyf is over $100, and not on the reserve list, {Dark Confidant} too. The just got reprinted not too long ago, and it did not lower their price or help new players break into the formats tier 1 decks with no investment. It did nothing for Modern except lower the cost of some rares, uncommons and commons.

There are tons of good reasons for them to have not made the reserve list, especially knowing what we know now about the game. The fact remains that they did make the reserve list, and we have to deal with it.
Want to know something else Wizards has promised not to do? Print ultra-rare "chase cards". I have confidence they'll never do that as much as I believe they'll never abolish the reserve list.

I believe the promise you are referring to is the promise Wizards made when they created the Mythic Rare rarity claiming, "they will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards." Looking back at the Titans, {Baneslayer Angel}, {Jace, the Mind Sculptor}, {Tarmogoyf}, {Dark Confidant}, {Vendilion Clique}, {Kiora, the Crashing Wave}, {Elspeth, Sun's Champion}, {Brimaz, King of Oreskos}, {Sphinx's Revelation}, {Liliana of the Veil}, {Voice of Resurgance}, {Blood Baron of Vizkopa}....yeah, I'm not sure sure they kept that promise.

Goyf, clique and confidant were all originally printed at rare.

That was before they made Mythic rares. They were all in Mythic in Modern Masters.

[Falcon182]

Anyways I think it's crazy the people who think legacy is overpriced. A tier 1 modern deck can cost almost as much as a legacy deck. Staying current in standard for a year or two costs as much as a legacy deck. There are lots of competitive legacy decks that don't run the highest priced dual lands... But besides the duals, nearly every card that is good in legacy is good in modern!

If you want to get in to legacy, don't spend $100 on a sealed box of standard garbage, spend that same $100 on a wasteland. I really don't understand how people don't get this concept. The same people that complain about the cost of legacy are the people who buy 2 boxes of each set as it comes out and a set of each intro decks. If you don't see the problem here, legacy doesn't want you. Stick to standard.

[NovusOrbis]

I mainly play standard because it's a volatile format. That's what I like about it. New decks, new combos etc. You can argue that you have a larger pool of cards for the old folks, but the tier 1 decks are static(Once or twice in a blood moon a new card is added)
Mark addressed the issue with decks like MonoU and MonoB and Esper/Azo decksand how people only play decks that top 8, and I do think this revision will help change that. The one thing I hope they do is run a few isolated tests before they try to implement the new rotation style, unless they already have and I'm just a sill willy, otherwise everything seems like a good idea.

[blackychan1]

Did anybody else realize that Modern masterS starts with M and ends with S? Like... That could be what was referring to, te modern masters 2. Not this magic origins.

So.... What are the "M" and "S" for now? Magic SetS?

[Mattao19]

Metamorphisis

[DirtyMustachio]

Wasn't wizards the same people who promised to never print Planeswalker's onto cards also,

This company will do whatever it wants when it deems it necessary, promises are just a thing to quell the masses temporarily.

[griffin131]

No, the analogy is more like, "you don't need golf clubs, just play with a baseball bat." Nothing comes close to ABUR dual lands, if were you to try playing competitively with shocklands, its like starting every game 8-11 life. You would never have a chance, just as you would not have a chance at a golf tournament with a baseball bat. Also, the community would not hate the decision, the grand majority would welcome it. The ABUR dual lands might not even go down, because of the increase in demand and obvious preference for original cards in the Magic community. The only people who would be angered would be collectors, who honestly shouldn't even be thought of when Wizards makes decisions.

Isn't that what I said?  That you can use shock lands, but to play competitively you need ABURs, just like to play competitively you need good clubs?

Shocks are a great example - a reprint proved they would go down, rather significantly. And as a player (not collector) I'd be angry if they just invalidated the reserve list.

[Rass]

Anyways I think it's crazy the people who think legacy is overpriced. A tier 1 modern deck can cost almost as much as a legacy deck. Staying current in standard for a year or two costs as much as a legacy deck. There are lots of competitive legacy decks that don't run the highest priced dual lands... But besides the duals, nearly every card that is good in legacy is good in modern!

If you want to get in to legacy, don't spend $100 on a sealed box of standard garbage, spend that same $100 on a wasteland. I really don't understand how people don't get this concept. The same people that complain about the cost of legacy are the people who buy 2 boxes of each set as it comes out and a set of each intro decks. If you don't see the problem here, legacy doesn't want you. Stick to standard.

You say that. But it's the people who buy the new stuff keep the game alive. If everyone just bought the cards like that this game would be dead ( either cards way overpriced or no one playing because no new blood) Every so often you get a card that breaks into legacy from a new expansion. There has to be some kind of happy medium.

If they are so worried they are gonna break the local lgs by reprinting that's a silly concept. I believe they don't want to reprint so there is always that want of cards.  If you had all the cards always available you would get bored. Back to my first thought. Wotc could send out a note to the lgs warring them about reprints. Then plan something that they could work out similar to the "hidden treasures".