Cool thought

[Apathy Reactor]

Why do we say "my brain"? The brain is calling itself "my brain"? Does this make any sense? How should the brain refer to itself if it doesn't have free will?

perhaps I am not my brain, perhaps my brain is just an organ within my body.

[Birdbrain]

Why do we say "my brain"? The brain is calling itself "my brain"? Does this make any sense? How should the brain refer to itself if it doesn't have free will?

Because of subjectivity.

and how could we have this subjective opinion?

[Dudecore]

Why do we say "my brain"? The brain is calling itself "my brain"? Does this make any sense? How should the brain refer to itself if it doesn't have free will?

Because of subjectivity.

and how could we have this subjective opinion?

Subjectivity is a state of our brain. We can even be mistaken about our subjectivity, we can occupy any number of different states of subjectivity.

[Birdbrain]

Why do we say "my brain"? The brain is calling itself "my brain"? Does this make any sense? How should the brain refer to itself if it doesn't have free will?

Because of subjectivity.

and how could we have this subjective opinion?

Subjectivity is a state of our brain. We can even be mistaken about our subjectivity, we can occupy any number of different states of subjectivity.

how can we switch states of subjectivity? And if that's so, why don't we switch at random?

[gtfotis]

I am Jack's colon. I get cancer, I kill Jack.

[Dudecore]

Why do we say "my brain"? The brain is calling itself "my brain"? Does this make any sense? How should the brain refer to itself if it doesn't have free will?

Because of subjectivity.

and how could we have this subjective opinion?

Subjectivity is a state of our brain. We can even be mistaken about our subjectivity, we can occupy any number of different states of subjectivity.

how can we switch states of subjectivity? And if that's so, why don't we switch at random?

To randomly change states of subjectivity wouldn't make any sense, as though our brains would know the difference in advance. We change subjectivity as it relates to our jobs, social group, world view, beliefs and values. It does not mean were in control of those things, just that we view things subjectively in retrospect.

[Langku]

Dudecore. I value your sense of reason and your grasp of philosophy. As in past discussions you've opened my eyes to terminology and ideas that are completley new and compelling. So thank you. But I'm troubled by what I see as a tendency to teeter anywhere near the correlation = causation error and assuming that our crude understandings of neuroscience, sociology, history etc somehow negates the likelihood of sentient choice smacks of that mistake. There are far too many unknowns, variables and contradictions in human behavior and physiology to reasonably assume we operate by a predetermined set of stimulus/responses.

Or that we don't.

And so, like Gorzo, if I understand him, I tend toward the likelyhood that it's somewhere in the middle. I believe that with each advance in neuroscience we may be developing a better understanding of the mechanics of free will. Simply because a thing can be explained does not preclude the possibility of other explanations. As always you've certainly built a solid house of rationality but sometimes those blocks of reason block your ability to indulge in other POVs.

Case in point:

I would wish for more for you than to close yourself off to a whole facet of human collaboration and creativity like religion.

Strong words from me but I kind of think you and your thoughtful views are worth the time it takes for me to disagree.

[Gorzo]

Well said, Langku. That's more or less what I wanted to say but failed to put it into as meaningful of words

I'd also like to add that logical fallacies are a bitch. For everyone. Myself included. I find myself struggling with emotional reasoning (Argument from incredulity fallacy) somewhat often, but I feel that learning about such things helps me understand my own logical faults, recognize them, and better my ability to deal with them in both myself and others as time progresses.

P.S. Once you start learning about different logical fallacies, it's kind of fun to start noticing them in other people's thought patterns.

P.P.S. They get really annoyed when you point them out.

[Birdbrain]

Why do we say "my brain"? The brain is calling itself "my brain"? Does this make any sense? How should the brain refer to itself if it doesn't have free will?

Because of subjectivity.

and how could we have this subjective opinion?

Subjectivity is a state of our brain. We can even be mistaken about our subjectivity, we can occupy any number of different states of subjectivity.

how can we switch states of subjectivity? And if that's so, why don't we switch at random?

To randomly change states of subjectivity wouldn't make any sense, as though our brains would know the difference in advance. We change subjectivity as it relates to our jobs, social group, world view, beliefs and values. It does not mean were in control of those things, just that we view things subjectively in retrospect.

the other day I was heading somewhere, but as a split second decision decided to head in another direction. Explain that

[Dudecore]

The other day I was heading somewhere, but as a split second decision decided to head in another direction. Explain that

You are mistaken about your experience in choosing to head the other direction. It was thought about it way before hand. This is part of the illusion of choice that most people cannot get over. It feels so strong and feels so real.


Langku, elegant and well spoken as always. I understand many people's skeptism in regards to determinism, and their belief in the ghost in the machine. Let's go with free will for a second. Let's say it is real:
🔹 the entire field of Psychology is now closed. Since we cannot draw parrallels between someone's actions and known states of the brain - we have absolutely no predictive value. Depressed people act completely different then one another. All sorts of clinical issues go un-diagnosed because people with mental illness are essentially choosing to have it - or at least behaving in ways that their self-authoring minds let them.
🔹clinical psychologists have no real purpose. When pharmaceutical comes do R&D on drugs they change your brain chemistry, this directly correlates to changes in behavior. If this is accomplished but the users still somehow are able to change their brain chemistry to begin with/CHOOSE what to do - which thing is working? The drugs or the free will?
🔹the field of cognitive neuroscience is simply mistaken about how the brain works. Instead of tracking states of the brain and running experiments (especially suggestive subliminal tests where people "choose" exactly what they're suggested). Instead of the further advancement of such a field, we'd be content to say there is another part of our brains, outside of our brains, that allows us to make choices that we have absolutely no clue why we did so.

I think compatiblists like Gorzo and you are solving the problem of free will by completely ignoring it. I don't see your version of free will as doing all that much at all. It is not the version of free Will people like Birdbrain believe they have. Compatibilism is then only real philosophically respectable position to take on the matter of free will - as it is scientifically and philosophically settled that determinism is the way out brains are controlled (with some saying that some free will is sprinkled in).

What ultimately I think the problem is, and it is seen with many of these debates I get into.
🔹Determinism eventually gets confused with Fatalism.
🔹Someone says "I had 2 options and I chose one" - completely glossing over the near essays worth of things I've said on the subject.
🔹"If my brain is determined for me, then I am not responcible for murder". While that is true, if one is going to murder a human being - then they were going to murder. If you have the brain of a psychopath, then you've got the brain of a psychopath. It does not mean we shouldn't lock you up, you are a danger to the public. But dangerous criminals can be seen as faulty clockwork, and unfortunate to be who they are.

I think that is what free will believers want the most, to be able to blame individuals for all of their problems. To blame them for their behavior. To say "I have chosen to be successful and I am the only reason." Murderers kill people they choose to do the wrong thing, drug addicts (sometimes they waffle a bit on this) choose to take illegal drugs. Homeless people are lazy and put themselves into that position.

Determinists don't say do not try, always try to get better, always try to lose weight, always attempt to do better. If you still believe in free will - more power to you! Whatever it takes to feel better and accomplish goals. I hopefully explained myself well enough to convince some people here. Believing in free will is not harmful, unless we set up a system of laws that does no reflect what we know about the brain, which we have done, but what is harmful is being delusional. It believing in free will helps you get up, by all means, and it doesn't make anyone a bad person. Do understand that free will is an illusion, our personal feeling of agency and authorship are subjective brain states about which we are mistaken.

Let's run a free will test: Everyone think of a famous person. Got one? Good. Who was it?

[rarehuntertay]

If you are a religious/spiritual person, I have found verses from the Qu'ran and the Bible that makes it sound like we have some free will, but not totally. Look up Surat Al Kahf (18):23-24 and James 4:13-15 NIV

[Dudecore]

I would wish for more for you than to close yourself off to a whole facet of human collaboration and creativity like religion.

Strong words from me but I kind of think you and your thoughtful views are worth the time it takes for me to disagree.

I am not quite sure what you're getting at. I grew up religious, like most people, because I was indoctrinated. I also feel as though I'm not missing all that much, based on the principles that Christians and such believe the earth was created by a human. They've shut themselves off experience about how the natural world works, and how science works, how logic works and how morality works.

Does that mean I do not talk to Christians? Does that mean I do not work with them? Does that mean I will not have proper discourse with them? Of course not. I may even respect a few of them 😉

[Dudecore]

If you are a religious/spiritual person, I have found verses from the Qu'ran and the Bible that makes it sound like we have some free will, but not totally. Look up Surat Al Kahf (18):23-24 and James 4:13-15 NIV

This ultimately is one of my major grievances against Catholicism. They essentially postulate that god gave us a the free will to do evil/good. But if we know that free will does not exist, this argument dissolves. An entire crux of the bible is completely false.

I think that is one of the reasons Christians and such NEED free will to exist, it is in their holy book. I can also see how perhaps Christians would think of determinism as "another attack on religious sensibilities". What these people often miss is the fact that they will not debate the issues, will not present new facts, but will instead appeal to the idea that they're being picked on, and beliefs insulted - without ever actually debating what was said.

[Apathy Reactor]

I would wish for more for you than to close yourself off to a whole facet of human collaboration and creativity like religion.

Strong words from me but I kind of think you and your thoughtful views are worth the time it takes for me to disagree.

I am not quite sure what you're getting at. I grew up religious, like most people, because I was indoctrinated. I also feel as though I'm not missing all that much, based on the principles that Christians and such believe the earth was created by a human. They've shut themselves off experience about how the natural world works, and how science works, how logic works and how morality works.

Does that mean I do not talk to Christians? Does that mean I do not work with them? Does that mean I will not have proper discourse with them? Of course not. I may even respect a few of them 😉

(Christians don't believe that the Earth was created by a human, and they also do not reject science, the world, logic or morality. Thanks for trying.)

[Dudecore]

(Christians don't believe that the Earth was created by a human, and they also do not reject science, the world, logic or morality. Thanks for trying.)

Human was sort of short hand for a creator god. Thanks for adding so much, as usual.