Touchy Subjects #2: Abortion *NFSW

[Piotr]

@piotor.  Abortion isn't the punishment, the mother had absolutely no choice in the fact she was going to get pregnant, so to make her keep the baby would be PUNISHING her, for another's choices, which I believe is against img law (i might be wrong, so don't yell at me if I am) and should be against everyone's laws and morals.

For the unborn human the abortion is capital punishment. The mother was a victim of the crime and having to have the baby of the violator is one of the effects of that crime, it is not additional crime or punishment.

It is against iMtG law to kill unborn babies regardless of the way they were created. The only exception is self defense when the life of mother is threatened.

[Coffee Vampire]

@piotor.  Abortion isn't the punishment, the mother had absolutely no choice in the fact she was going to get pregnant, so to make her keep the baby would be PUNISHING her, for another's choices, which I believe is against img law (i might be wrong, so don't yell at me if I am) and should be against everyone's laws and morals.

The problem with the rape scenario, which is an argument that pro-abortionists use often, is that it does not address whether or not the fetus is human or not. Here is why this is relevant: if the fetus is not a human, of course the rape scenario would be a valid argument. Why should a woman have to go through so much suffering just because she was already the victim of even more suffering? Suffering as a punishment for beig raped...not logical. However, ask yourself this. Just in your head: if the fetus is definitely a human, would it be logical to kill this human because it causes the mother suffering? Also, would it be constitutional, considering all humans are created equal? You see, if the fetus is a human, then killing it because it causes a woman pain would be no different than a mother killing a toddler, teenager, or adult because they caused her pain in some way.

So the question is not: "does the mother have the right to choose?" Of course she does. But obviously no one in America has the right to choose to kill a human being. This means that the question is:

"What is the unborn?"

It is extremely simple: if the fetus is human, it has the right to live; if the fetus is not human, it does not have the right to live.

Can you prove a fetus not to be human? I would appreciate it if someone would prove either of my two posts to be wrong.

[Piotr]

A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.

A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.

[ihasfrozen]

A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.

A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.

A baby does not require the mother's assistance after birth, it can be fed and nurtured by any individual, whereas the fetus must depend on the mother for nutrients.

[ihasfrozen]

Can you prove a fetus not to be human? I would appreciate it if someone would prove either of my two posts to be wrong.

What makes a being(ie: a fetus) human? Does it have to have conscious thought and self-awareness? If it does then you can't assert that a fetus is human through the entire pregnancy.

[Piotr]

A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.

A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.

A baby does not require the mother's assistance after birth, it can be fed and nurtured by any individual, whereas the fetus must depend on the mother for nutrients.

Are you trying to insult me by ignoring my comment about third party, or are you simply unable to understand what I said?

[Mlerner12]

Maybe he just disagrees but doesn't want to say it.

[Piotr]

Maybe he just disagrees but doesn't want to say it.

Disagrees with the fact that foetus can survive with third party support?

[Mlerner12]

I don't see why, but maybe.

[ihasfrozen]

A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.

A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.

A baby does not require the mother's assistance after birth, it can be fed and nurtured by any individual, whereas the fetus must depend on the mother for nutrients.

Are you trying to insult me by ignoring my comment about third party, or are you simply unable to understand what I said?

Neither, but claiming that unborn babies (fetus) can unequivocally survive outside of the mother seems a bit of a stretch, but I am not an expert on the viability of a fetus outside of the womb (particularly a fetus from early on in the pregnancy).

[Mlerner12]

I believe he means a newborn.

[Mlerner12]

You say only humans have a right to live. This would get rid of all our meat to eat, but also many jobs (farmers) and bugs would stop pollinating, cutting off food, materials, and even oxygen.

[Moneekahh]

What would the fate of all of the unwanted babies be if abortion were illegal? Most would be either: orphaned or born to parents who resent them and are treated poorly (abused).

As a woman, I do not believe that the father should have a choice. It's unfair that nature intended for only woman to become pregnant, but that's the way it is. Carrying a baby that you do not want can cause extreme emotional damage.

I have a child, so obviously abortion is not the path that I chose for myself, but I am fully pro-choice. I do not believe that anyone has a right to tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.

[Piotr]

A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.

A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.

A baby does not require the mother's assistance after birth, it can be fed and nurtured by any individual, whereas the fetus must depend on the mother for nutrients.

Are you trying to insult me by ignoring my comment about third party, or are you simply unable to understand what I said?

Neither, but claiming that unborn babies (fetus) can unequivocally survive outside of the mother seems a bit of a stretch, but I am not an expert on the viability of a fetus outside of the womb (particularly a fetus from early on in the pregnancy).

Do not take part in discussions where your knowledge of the subject is low, or you run into a risk of saying stupid things. I for one think much less of you than before you opened your mouth here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability

Every year the survivability of unborn humans removed from mother with third party help increases. Does that mean that killing 25 week old human is murder now, but wasn't murder 20 years ago? No. It was murder 20 years ago as well. 20 years from now the survivability of 18 week old humans will be over 50%, does that mean they are not humans now but will be then? No, unborn human is a human regardless of their age. 100 years from now the survivability of 1 day old human will be 99.9%.

[Piotr]

What would the fate of all of the unwanted babies be if abortion were illegal? Most would be either: orphaned or born to parents who resent them and are treated poorly (abused).

As a woman, I do not believe that the father should have a choice. It's unfair that nature intended for only woman to become pregnant, but that's the way it is. Carrying a baby that you do not want can cause extreme emotional damage.

I have a child, so obviously abortion is not the path that I chose for myself, but I am fully pro-choice. I do not believe that anyone has a right to tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.

Unborn baby is not part of your body by any stretch of logic. It is unborn baby's body, not yours, it just happens to be inside you. Is a chicken you ate part of your body?