Undying vs Infect

[Wally]

This is probably easy for some of you pros out there, I guess it's probably more related to when damage actually resolves on a creature.
Eg: I attack with my {Sightless Ghoul} and my opponent chooses to block with his {Cystbearer}. The zombie dies and comes back with a +1/+1 counter on it. No problem.
The next round I attack with it again and this time they block with a {Tel-Jilad Fallen} elf creature. This time both creatures die. My question is whether the -1/-1 counters of the infect dealer removes my +1/+1 counter before the it is pronounced dead and shipped off to the graveyard. If so would it then come back to the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter as the other was removed?
I do understand this much that if the {Cystbearer} blocked the second time it would not deal a fatal amount of damage to the zombie (with the +1/+1) and would then remove the +1 and add a -1 (for a total of 2 damage) and the zombie could then die and come back again with a +1 counter on it. (correct me if I'm wrong)

Thanks for any insight.

Edit: it looks like the dark ascension stuff isn't in here yet, so that link for the zombie won't work. His details are:
Sightless Ghoul
  Creature - Zombie Soldier
  Sightless Zombie can't block
  Undying - (When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.)

[Prophylaxis]

From the Dark Ascension Mechanics:

If a creature ever has +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it, the two kinds of counters immediately "cancel out," one for one, until only one kind of counter remains. For example, a creature with three +1/+1 counters and two -1/-1 counters would end up with one +1/+1 counter. There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield.

[Pakamper]

From the Dark Ascension Mechanics:

If a creature ever has +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it, the two kinds of counters immediately "cancel out," one for one, until only one kind of counter remains. For example, a creature with three +1/+1 counters and two -1/-1 counters would end up with one +1/+1 counter. There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield.

Rules wise, i dont believe they acctualy "cancel out" so to speak. If a creature has say 2 (+1/+1) counters, and 2 (-1/-1) counters then there is still 4 counters on the creatue so that an ability such as {Spinal Parasite}'s could be activated to remove a counter of choice. Players choose to say they cancel out just to make gameplay a little easier. As for the Op's question the creature does not come back because the (+1/+1) counter still is on the creatue as well as the (-1/-1) counter. So sorry no, I dont believe it comes back.

[BlackJester]

When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains. They "annihilate" each other like matter and anti-matter. ðŸ"¨

[Mentonin]

When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains. They "annihilate" each other like matter and anti-matter. ðŸ"¨

i understand the rules, but matter and anti-matter dont annihilate each other, do they?

[Wally]

When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains....

Yes this is as I understand rule 121.3
I guess I was asking if this happens at the same time as damage is resolved or before? My guess that they both happen simultaneously, the creature dies and is not returned to the battlefield. (much simpler result anyway lol)
And yeah, both counters definitely do not remain on the permanent past the end of combat.

[BlackJester]

When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains. They "annihilate" each other like matter and anti-matter. ðŸ"¨

i understand the rules, but matter and anti-matter dont annihilate each other, do they?

It was late when I posted this and I couldn't decide on an appropriate particle/anti-particle metaphor. So I duffed it. ⛳

[BlackJester]

When State Based Effects are checked, the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters are removed in equal numbers so that only one counter type remains....

Yes this is as I understand rule 121.3
I guess I was asking if this happens at the same time as damage is resolved or before? My guess that they both happen simultaneously, the creature dies and is not returned to the battlefield. (much simpler result anyway lol)
And yeah, both counters definitely do not remain on the permanent past the end of combat.

After damage is dealt (resolves), SBE will simultaneously destroy the guys and remove counters. They stay dead.

[Ish]

I believe that + counters and - counters are treated as modifiers to a single total counter on a permanent.  Such that a permanent. Annoy have +2/+2 and a -1/-1; it would just be the sum; +1+1.

In the case of undying and infect, Wizard addresses this specifically.  If the the creature EVER had + permanents on it... It don't come back.

[BlackJester]

I believe that + counters and - counters are treated as modifiers to a single total counter on a permanent.  Such that a permanent. Annoy have +2/+2 and a -1/-1; it would just be the sum; +1+1.

In the case of undying and infect, Wizard addresses this specifically.  If the the creature EVER had + permanents on it... It don't come back.

Nope.  Check CR121.3 If a permanent has both a +1/+1 counter and a -1/-1 counter on it, N +1/+1 and N -1/-1 counters are removed from it as a state-based action, where N is the smaller of the number of +1/+1 and -1/-1 counters on it.

[Rass]

Lol no idea what that means can you explain state based action

[BlackJester]

State-based Actions (SBAs) are things that the game does to "clean things up".  It's SBAs that say, if a creature takes enough damage to destroy it, then destroy it.  If a creature has 0 toughness, it dies.  etc.  SBAs are checked at certain times, typically not in the middle of something resolving, but right before anyone receives priority.   

[Wally]

To quote Ish

In the case of undying and infect, Wizard addresses this specifically.  If the the creature EVER had + permanents on it... It don't come back.

Well I guess this settles it then.
Thanks all!


Edit: above is not correct, keep reading!

[BlackJester]

To quote Ish

In the case of undying and infect, Wizard addresses this specifically.  If the the creature EVER had + permanents on it... It don't come back.

Well I guess this settles it then.
Thanks all!

Where does Wizards address this? That's not the right answer...

[Wally]

Lol yeah I couldn't find that anywhere.
Here's what I did find tho. (pls excuse the great slabs of text)


702.91. Undying
 
702.91a Undying is a triggered ability. "Undying" means "When this permanent is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it."
 
* Each card with undying is a creature. If one of them stops being a creature, undying will still work.
 
* The undying ability triggers when the permanent is put into a graveyard. Its last known information (that is, how the creature last existed on the battlefield) is used to determine whether it had a +1/+1 counter on it.
 
* If a permanent has multiple instances of undying, they'll each trigger separately, but the redundant instances will have no effect. If one instance returns the card to the battlefield, the next to resolve will do nothing.
 
* If a token with no +1/+1 counters on it has undying, the ability will trigger when the token is put into the graveyard. However, the token will cease to exist and can't return to the battlefield.
 
* When a permanent with undying returns to the battlefield, it's a new object with no memory of or connection to its previous existence.
 
* If multiple creatures with undying are put into the graveyard at the same time (due to combat damage or a spell that destroys all creatures, for example), the active player (the player whose turn it is) puts all of his or her undying triggers on the stack in any order, then each other player in turn order does the same. The last trigger put on the stack is the first one that resolves. That means that in a two-player game, the nonactive player's undying creatures will return to the battlefield first, then the active player's undying creatures do the same. The creatures return to the battlefield one at a time.
 
* If a creature with undying that has a +1/+1 counter on it receives enough -1/-1 counters to cause it to be destroyed by lethal damage or put into its owner's graveyard for having 0 or less toughness, undying won't trigger and the card won't return to the battlefield. That's because undying checks the creature's existence just before it leaves the battlefield, and it still has all those counters on it at that point.