Do you think infect is OP? Some think it dumbs down magic, others think it makes it smarter. Some think it should never come back after rotaing, others band together and hope to use infect some day in the future.
What do you think?
Eh, I would say it's somewhat overpowered with just the concept of basically cutting down the amount of damage needed to kill to 10, but there are counters against it like counter removal and {melira, sylvok outcast}.
It's interesting to say the least. I came into magic having no idea about infect and can admit its a cheap way to win. But it's a game and when you've been making cards for nearly 20 years, ya gotta change it up I suppose.
I know what you mean...I first started and my friend was teaching me to play. All of a sudden be said "you won." (I was using his infect deck). I was like "huh? Ok..."
Of course later I learned he was holding back to help me win one of my first games lol
I think that it is foolish from a design standpoint. They messed up a few things on a very short period of time.
1) the only drawback of a Creature should not be its mana cost. ({Primeval Titan} being a notorious culprit)
2) Never let players trade life for mana.
3) Not allowing players to remove counters.
4) The very notion of {Cavern of Souls}.
I don't think Infect is a very good concept, while it does have drawbacks, the very idea is a silly one.
Is it Overpowered? I would say a {Blighted Agent} with swords and some pump spells is a good strategy. I just maintain that infect is a silly concept, and not necessary.
The biggest reason I think infect could be considered OP is because there is only one card that heals infect. {Leeches}
bit of a generalization i'm going on but infect is not op. otherwise you would see it top 8 alot more major tournaments than it does now.
Quote from: scarsabrex on June 11, 2012, 12:02:51 AM
bit of a generalization i'm going on but infect is not op. otherwise you would see it top 8 alot more major tournaments than it does now.
Or because they're better than that? Lol
Pros make the decks you copy. (you being the general net deckers) they don't need to make an infect deck. Though they do use it. Most use {inkmoth nexus}. They make their own decks. Because they know how.
Most Wolf Run decks run {Inkmoth Nexus} as a win condition.
Quote from: Dudecore on June 11, 2012, 12:13:03 AM
Most Wolf Run decks run {Inkmoth Nexus} as a win condition.
Eh. I think it's more optional.
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 12:14:17 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on June 11, 2012, 12:13:03 AM
Most Wolf Run decks run {Inkmoth Nexus} as a win condition.
Eh. I think it's more optional.
It is optiOnal like everything else. But more than half (75-85%) run them since prime time brings 2 when he drops (usually)
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 12:06:05 AM
Quote from: scarsabrex on June 11, 2012, 12:02:51 AM
bit of a generalization i'm going on but infect is not op. otherwise you would see it top 8 alot more major tournaments than it does now.
Or because they're better than that? Lol
Pros make the decks you copy. (you being the general net deckers) they don't need to make an infect deck. Though they do use it. Most use {inkmoth nexus}. They make their own decks. Because they know how.
pros aren't better than op cards. if infect was op pros would break it and run rampant. caw blade is the most recent example of this. delver is a halfgood example. if infect was op there'd have either been bigger winnings or obvious bannings. I rest my case.
Case? I see your point but you're missing mine.
Pros are not scrubs. They don't take the easy way out. You should watch some pro tours or worlds. :D
they do take the easy way out. caw blade and delver are my prime examples. and even if you assume they weren't scrubs and that infect was op some slightly talented jerk off would have already piloted the deck to let all other net deckers rush for freedom.
Please excuse my ignorance, but what's caw blade. From what I've seen it seems just like delver blade
I think he's mad he wasn't the one who people net deck off of.
caw blade. was a white blue aggro control midrange deck {yes all of those, why it was so powerful}. you use a combination of {jace the mindsculptor} {stoneforge mystic} {squadron hawk} {batterskull} and the swords of x and y to maintain hand, board, and deck advantage. throw in day of judgement gideon jura mana leak and other white blue goodies and you had a deck which attacked on so many fronts you lost if you were playing any other tier 1 decks. if you made a deckspecifically to counter cawblade that wasn't cawblade you would get slaughtered by other tier 1 decks. It was because of cawblade that stoneforge mystic and jace the mind sculptor were banned at the end of their standard term.
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 12:43:21 AM
I think he's mad he wasn't the one who people net deck off of.
nah personally i hate infect. not because its op but because i hate all things phyrexian by policy.
Quote from: scarsabrex on June 11, 2012, 12:46:10 AM
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 12:43:21 AM
I think he's mad he wasn't the one who people net deck off of.
nah personally i hate infect. not because its op but because i hate all things phyrexian by policy.
Aww. Urza's version of phyerixa was awesome!
oops let me reitterate I got into magic during the original mirrodin block. so the whole new phyrexia thing pisses me off.
Quote from: scarsabrex on June 11, 2012, 01:21:19 AM
oops let me reitterate I got into magic during the original mirrodin block. so the whole new phyrexia thing pisses me off.
Yeah. New phyerixa is no fun. Though I don't know much about it. I've played vintage and legacy for pretty much ever since urza's.
If infect was overpowered then it would be showing up in tournaments heavily.
Quote from: Prophylaxis on June 11, 2012, 01:35:48 AM
If infect was overpowered then it would be showing up in tournaments heavily.
Phoenix Arizona. Come. You'll change your statement.
On terms of infect being op, personally I think it is easy to deal with infect as long as you get stuff going on from the start (don't miss any land drops t2 or t3).
The only time it is op is when you get a god hand (say, t1 glistener and t2 4 mutagenics and revenge of the hunted). But isn't every deck op when it actually works exactly how we want it to? imo, That's the beauty of deck building...the challenge to get as close to that as possible every time.
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 01:36:51 AM
Quote from: Prophylaxis on June 11, 2012, 01:35:48 AM
If infect was overpowered then it would be showing up in tournaments heavily.
Phoenix Arizona. Come. You'll change your statement.
I doubt he will.
Another Canuck?
My opinion varies with format. Most of the time I think infect is fine, but for the love of all that is holy, why is it still only 10 poison counters in Commander, and other formats with doubled/increased life totals? I mean, jeez, {grafted exoskeleton} + {any of the huge friggen monstrosities that make commander what it is} and it's over.
I like wither more. Damage as -1 counters is fun, but I don't care for how the poison counters on players plays out
Personally, I think infect is easy to deal with.
Thank you {Melira, Sylvok Outcast}
Quote from: JohnSalun007 on June 11, 2012, 07:03:06 AM
Personally, I think infect is easy to deal with.
Thank you {Melira, Sylvok Outcast}
{doom blade}.....
Quote from: Quackmaster5 on June 11, 2012, 07:14:05 AM
Quote from: JohnSalun007 on June 11, 2012, 07:03:06 AM
Personally, I think infect is easy to deal with.
Thank you {Melira, Sylvok Outcast}
{doom blade}.....
{Mask of Avacyn}....
Quote from: JaCe BeLeReN on June 11, 2012, 10:56:38 AM
Quote from: JohnSalun007 on June 11, 2012, 10:51:34 AM
Quote from: Quackmaster5 on June 11, 2012, 07:14:05 AM
Quote from: JohnSalun007 on June 11, 2012, 07:03:06 AM
Personally, I think infect is easy to deal with.
Thank you {Melira, Sylvok Outcast}
{doom blade}.....
{Mask of Avacyn}....
{Crush}... Followed by {Dismember}
{day of judgement}
Quote from: DevilGin on June 11, 2012, 11:13:32 AM
Quote from: JaCe BeLeReN on June 11, 2012, 10:56:38 AM
Quote from: JohnSalun007 on June 11, 2012, 10:51:34 AM
Quote from: Quackmaster5 on June 11, 2012, 07:14:05 AM
Quote from: JohnSalun007 on June 11, 2012, 07:03:06 AM
Personally, I think infect is easy to deal with.
Thank you {Melira, Sylvok Outcast}
{doom blade}.....
{Mask of Avacyn}....
{Crush}... Followed by {Dismember}
{day of judgement}
Another possibility. The point is, since Melira is the only protection against infect, she's vulnerable. Very vulnerable.
melira isn't the only protection against infect... gut shots, and regular removal work just as well.
Quote from: JaCe BeLeReN on June 11, 2012, 11:19:01 AM
Quote from: DevilGin on June 11, 2012, 11:13:32 AM
Quote from: JaCe BeLeReN on June 11, 2012, 10:56:38 AM
Quote from: JohnSalun007 on June 11, 2012, 10:51:34 AM
Quote from: Quackmaster5 on June 11, 2012, 07:14:05 AM
Quote from: JohnSalun007 on June 11, 2012, 07:03:06 AM
Personally, I think infect is easy to deal with.
Thank you {Melira, Sylvok Outcast}
{doom blade}.....
{Mask of Avacyn}....
{Crush}... Followed by {Dismember}
{day of judgement}
Another possibility. The point is, since Melira is the only protection against infect, she's vulnerable. Very vulnerable.
COUNTERSPELLS!!!!!!
And combine Melira with Avacyn and give em both a mask. EPIC WIN!!!!
The bottom line is that if you think infect is OP, then most likely you haven't ever played an infect deck, just against one. Infect, more than other decks, MUST win within the first five-six turns or else it loses all its had. And since all your creatures are very weak, mostly 1/1, you have to summon them wisely because removal against them is very very east to achieve. It is a lot of math involved and a lot of skill.
Quote from: Nobbert on June 11, 2012, 02:05:24 PM
The bottom line is that if you think infect is OP, then most likely you haven't ever played an infect deck, just against one. Infect, more than other decks, MUST win within the first five-six turns or else it loses all its had. And since all your creatures are very weak, mostly 1/1, you have to summon them wisely because removal against them is very very east to achieve. It is a lot of math involved and a lot of skill.
I've seen plenty of 4/4 flying and 11/11 trample infect creatures.
Quote from: Nobbert on June 11, 2012, 02:05:24 PM
The bottom line is that if you think infect is OP, then most likely you haven't ever played an infect deck, just against one. Infect, more than other decks, MUST win within the first five-six turns or else it loses all its had. And since all your creatures are very weak, mostly 1/1, you have to summon them wisely because removal against them is very very east to achieve. It is a lot of math involved and a lot of skill.
⬆this
Could not have said it better myself. My U/G Infect deck is Legacy speed and can do T2 kills but if it goes past T4 my odds of winning start to diminish rapidly ....especially against removal.....and most Legacy decks have some form of removal.
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: Nobbert on June 11, 2012, 02:05:24 PM
The bottom line is that if you think infect is OP, then most likely you haven't ever played an infect deck, just against one. Infect, more than other decks, MUST win within the first five-six turns or else it loses all its had. And since all your creatures are very weak, mostly 1/1, you have to summon them wisely because removal against them is very very east to achieve. It is a lot of math involved and a lot of skill.
I've seen plenty of 4/4 flying and 11/11 trample infect creatures.
I'm assuming you mean you have seen Skittles and Blightsteel plenty of times? I can't think of any other infect cards with those specifics. You'd need to get Skittles out sooner than T5 for him to be more than a last ditch effort. And Blightsteel is just a dumb idea to try to get to unless you're running straight mana ramp and him. {Blighted Agent} could be OP if you don't kill him before your opponent buffs him with hexproof, etc. But he's a 1/1. {Shock}, {Pillar of Flame}, {Doom Blade}, blah blah blah. Any burn/kill card. Same with Skittles, he's a 4/4, but you could {Dismember}, {Grasp of Darkness}, or anything that employs -1/-1 counters. And all you have to do against Blightsteel is make them sac him. Simple {Geth's Verdict}....
Quote from: Silent1236 on June 11, 2012, 02:27:50 PM
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 02:13:28 PM
I've seen plenty of 4/4 flying and 11/11 trample infect creatures.
I'm assuming you mean you have seen Skittles and Blightsteel plenty of times? I can't think of any other infect cards with those specifics. You'd need to get Skittles out sooner than T5 for him to be more than a last ditch effort. And Blightsteel is just a dumb idea to try to get to unless you're running straight mana ramp and him. {Blighted Agent} could be OP if you don't kill him before your opponent buffs him with hexproof, etc. But he's a 1/1. {Shock}, {Pillar of Flame}, {Doom Blade}, blah blah blah. Any burn/kill card. Same with Skittles, he's a 4/4, but you could {Dismember}, {Grasp of Darkness}, or anything that employs -1/-1 counters. And all you have to do against Blightsteel is make them sac him. Simple {Geth's Verdict}....
I think {Blightsteel Colossus} can easily be played in non-infect decks. If you can land him in play, your opponent is going to be scrambling to deal with him unless they are already en-route to winning anyway. He works really well as the only arti in {Shape Anew} decks, but that's just one deck-type.
Infect creatures are weaker. They need the boost of equipment/auras/buff-spells. Control can deal with these, and aggro has access to better monsters. Infect has to win fast or not at all, reminds me of RDW.
But what do I know? :-\ I don't follow Pro-Tour stuff.
I've been destroyed by {Shape Anew} and {Blightsteel Collossus} once or twice, but I think my friend got bored with it after a couple games and took that deck apart haha. I'm not trying to say Blightsteel isn't overpowered, but there are was to deal with him. He's one of the few OP infect cards.
I agree with you, Jester, if infect doesn't run fast, it just doesn't do very well.
I have played blightsteel on turn four in my artifact deck before. Though it's rare it's not impossible. Each urza's land then a second tower plus mox opal and lotus petal. Being him out turn four.
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 02:44:03 PM
I have played blightsteel on turn four in my artifact deck before. Though it's rare it's not impossible. Each urza's land then a second tower plus mox opal and lotus petal. Being him out turn four.
I thought we were talking standard ???
Quote from: Silent1236 on June 11, 2012, 02:45:17 PM
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 02:44:03 PM
I have played blightsteel on turn four in my artifact deck before. Though it's rare it's not impossible. Each urza's land then a second tower plus mox opal and lotus petal. Being him out turn four.
I thought we were talking standard ???
Where did it say that?
Plus if you have ever seen me post. You'll know I don't play standard.
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 02:45:41 PM
Quote from: Silent1236 on June 11, 2012, 02:45:17 PM
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 02:44:03 PM
I have played blightsteel on turn four in my artifact deck before. Though it's rare it's not impossible. Each urza's land then a second tower plus mox opal and lotus petal. Being him out turn four.
I thought we were talking standard ???
Where did it say that?
Plus if you have ever seen me post. You'll know I don't play standard.
Considering almost all the cards talked about are standard except the Mind Sculptor a page or two back and this was broken off of a thread in a standard deck list.
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 02:44:03 PM
I have played blightsteel on turn four in my artifact deck before. Though it's rare it's not impossible. Each urza's land then a second tower plus mox opal and lotus petal. Being him out turn four.
This is where I like {Geth's Verdict} or {Barter in Blood}, cause it can deal with this. Of course there is an answer for every threat, and a answer to every answer, but this is where having a good sideboard pays off IMHO.
Quote from: BlackJester on June 11, 2012, 02:51:05 PM
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 02:44:03 PM
I have played blightsteel on turn four in my artifact deck before. Though it's rare it's not impossible. Each urza's land then a second tower plus mox opal and lotus petal. Being him out turn four.
This is where I like {Geth's Verdict} or {Barter in Blood}, cause it can deal with this. Of course there is an answer for every threat, and a answer to every answer, but this is where having a good sideboard pays off IMHO.
Yeah I suppose that could work against a ramp deck. Probably not affinity. Even board whipes dont really stop it.
But like you said. There's and answer for every answer. So I agree that there are plenty of ways to stop even legacy affinity. Counterspell is one of those answers.
So, it sounds like it all comes back to "Infect is strong, but not OP."
Just like any good mechanic should be if used properly.
Well. The real question is. Is infect "burn" op? Or just cheap?
What is infect burn? And OP usually is cheap.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on June 11, 2012, 03:34:56 PM
What is infect burn? And OP usually is cheap.
I meant is it as op or cheap as burn?
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 03:36:45 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on June 11, 2012, 03:34:56 PM
What is infect burn? And OP usually is cheap.
I meant is it as op or cheap as burn?
You consider burn to be overpowered and/or cheap?
Quote from: BlackJester on June 11, 2012, 03:07:40 AM
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 01:36:51 AM
Quote from: Prophylaxis on June 11, 2012, 01:35:48 AM
If infect was overpowered then it would be showing up in tournaments heavily.
Phoenix Arizona. Come. You'll change your statement.
I doubt he will.
Indeed.
If you go to see the StarCityGames Open Standard, the top 8 decks are
Solar Flare
U/W Delver
Wolf Run Ramp
Isn't a trace of infect in the top 34th.
If Infect is so prevalent in your meta, can you take advantage of that and hate it out?
Quote from: BlackJester on June 11, 2012, 03:43:58 PM
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 03:36:45 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on June 11, 2012, 03:34:56 PM
What is infect burn? And OP usually is cheap.
I meant is it as op or cheap as burn?
You consider burn to be overpowered and/or cheap?
Hmm. I guess I can give standard props for making it more strategic, but way before all it took was lightning bolt, shock, voltaic hammer, fireball, good game.
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 03:47:27 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on June 11, 2012, 03:43:58 PM
Quote from: Kuberr on June 11, 2012, 03:36:45 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on June 11, 2012, 03:34:56 PM
What is infect burn? And OP usually is cheap.
I meant is it as op or cheap as burn?
You consider burn to be overpowered and/or cheap?
Hmm. I guess I can give standard props for making it more strategic, but way before all it took was lightning bolt, shock, voltaic hammer, fireball, good game.
Burn in the good ol' days was definitely at a higher power level than it is now, but since the "New World Order" there has ben a greater push for creature combat over "spell-slinging", 'cause creatures fighting is more fun. ;D
I too would weigh in to say that infect is Not OP.
I love my infect deck, but yeah if it doesn't win turn before turn 5 it loses it's legs.
Now originally I thought it may have been a good answer to keep the darksteel stuff in check. It's about the only thing that can get rid of indestructible creatures.
Now days with all the flicker and exile stuff both indestructible and infect is almost pointless.
Eg. Someone drops a big indestructible bomb out there and it meets an o-ring in the face next turn. Dealt with no problem.
You attack with infect, opponent blocks (usually the most dreaded thing to do vs infect other than take the damage) they either unsummon your guy, they block and flicker their blocker so it takes no damage, or flicker a bomb with not enough counters to kill it to reset their p/t.
Infect is just two dimensional and there are just too many ways to handle it. Especially by the more prominent standard decks at the moment.
Currently I'm working on an infect ramp deck that I'm hoping will both be fast enough to cause early trouble but have legs to carry it home vs the things I mentioned and past turn 6 if necessary..
Infect gets owned by undying.