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Magic (The Gathering) => Rules => Topic started by: particle on July 01, 2015, 08:33:10 PM

Title: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: particle on July 01, 2015, 08:33:10 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/3b2c1s/psa_for_modern_season/

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: InfinitiveDivinity on July 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Uh, what?

There's no way that's right, {Spellskite} would be a $100 card.
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: mickeven on July 03, 2015, 04:25:04 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Uh, what?

There's no way that's right, {Spellskite} would be a $100 card.

"However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged."

Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: mickeven on July 03, 2015, 04:25:04 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Uh, what?

There's no way that's right, {Spellskite} would be a $100 card.

"However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged."
Like the judges say: Yes, you can activate the ability targeting the counter. Nothing will happen though.
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: LinkCelestrial on July 03, 2015, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: mickeven on July 03, 2015, 04:25:04 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Uh, what?

There's no way that's right, {Spellskite} would be a $100 card.

"However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged."
Like the judges say: Yes, you can activate the ability targeting the counter. Nothing will happen though.

Relevant for {Mindslaver} kills.
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 07:09:37 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on July 03, 2015, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: mickeven on July 03, 2015, 04:25:04 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Uh, what?

There's no way that's right, {Spellskite} would be a $100 card.

"However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged."
Like the judges say: Yes, you can activate the ability targeting the counter. Nothing will happen though.

Relevant for {Mindslaver} kills.
If there's a {spellskite} on the field and I {mindslaver} I'd {quicken} a {lava axe} and redirect it to Kite like 9 times (assuming 20 life)
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 03, 2015, 10:22:37 PM
So you can retarget one spell to spellskite any number of times?
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:57:35 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 07:09:37 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on July 03, 2015, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: mickeven on July 03, 2015, 04:25:04 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Uh, what?

There's no way that's right, {Spellskite} would be a $100 card.

"However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged."
Like the judges say: Yes, you can activate the ability targeting the counter. Nothing will happen though.

Relevant for {Mindslaver} kills.
If there's a {spellskite} on the field and I {mindslaver} I'd {quicken} a {lava axe} and redirect it to Kite like 9 times (assuming 20 life)

Remember you can't pay life that would put you to zero.
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Sardok on July 04, 2015, 04:11:18 AM
Quote from: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:57:35 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 07:09:37 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on July 03, 2015, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: mickeven on July 03, 2015, 04:25:04 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Uh, what?

There's no way that's right, {Spellskite} would be a $100 card.

"However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged."
Like the judges say: Yes, you can activate the ability targeting the counter. Nothing will happen though.

Relevant for {Mindslaver} kills.
If there's a {spellskite} on the field and I {mindslaver} I'd {quicken} a {lava axe} and redirect it to Kite like 9 times (assuming 20 life)

Remember you can't pay life that would put you to zero.

Incorrect, you can absolutely pay 2 life and use {Spellskite}'s ability to kill yourself if you are at 2 life.
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Kaylesh on July 04, 2015, 07:18:11 AM
Quote from: Sardok on July 04, 2015, 04:11:18 AM
Quote from: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:57:35 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 07:09:37 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on July 03, 2015, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: mickeven on July 03, 2015, 04:25:04 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Uh, what?

There's no way that's right, {Spellskite} would be a $100 card.

"However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged."
Like the judges say: Yes, you can activate the ability targeting the counter. Nothing will happen though.

Relevant for {Mindslaver} kills.
If there's a {spellskite} on the field and I {mindslaver} I'd {quicken} a {lava axe} and redirect it to Kite like 9 times (assuming 20 life)

Remember you can't pay life that would put you to zero.

Incorrect, you can absolutely pay 2 life and use {Spellskite}'s ability to kill yourself if you are at 2 life.
True. Though you can't pay if you don't have enough, if you have 2 left, you can still pay 2.
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 03, 2015, 10:22:37 PM
So you can retarget one spell to spellskite any number of times?
You can activate any ability as often as you can pay for it, as long as there's a legal target (if necessary), and the ability doesn't specify you can only use it once per turn.

{firebreathing} is a nice example of an ability you want to squeeze every ounce of {R} in.
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: particle on July 04, 2015, 07:51:26 AM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 04, 2015, 07:18:11 AM
Quote from: Sardok on July 04, 2015, 04:11:18 AM
Quote from: particle on July 03, 2015, 10:57:35 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 07:09:37 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on July 03, 2015, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 03, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
Quote from: mickeven on July 03, 2015, 04:25:04 PM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on July 03, 2015, 04:02:42 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on July 02, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: griffin131 on July 02, 2015, 12:03:47 AM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 01, 2015, 11:16:49 PM
I've gotten ahold of two {spellskythe} since ripping some mm15, and have been excited at the prospect of using it to redirect and nullify counterspells. But after thinking about it, I thought to myself that you wouldn't be able to change the target of spells to an illegal target; in the case of a counterspell, being that spellskythe isn't really a "spell" anymore, but a permanent. Apparently this is incorrect, but maybe someone could explain somehow. I don't know if the arrow/grenade analogy works here, effective as it always is
No, a {Spellskite} cannot redirect a counter spell to itself.
It also can't redirect a {Boros Charm} set to mode 1 to itself.
Yup, see these rule:
1-6-2011   You can activate Spellskite's ability even if Spellskite wouldn't be a legal target for the spell or ability. However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged.
Uh, what?

There's no way that's right, {Spellskite} would be a $100 card.

"However, the target of that spell or ability will remain unchanged."
Like the judges say: Yes, you can activate the ability targeting the counter. Nothing will happen though.

Relevant for {Mindslaver} kills.
If there's a {spellskite} on the field and I {mindslaver} I'd {quicken} a {lava axe} and redirect it to Kite like 9 times (assuming 20 life)

Remember you can't pay life that would put you to zero.

Incorrect, you can absolutely pay 2 life and use {Spellskite}'s ability to kill yourself if you are at 2 life.
True. Though you can't pay if you don't have enough, if you have 2 left, you can still pay 2.
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 03, 2015, 10:22:37 PM
So you can retarget one spell to spellskite any number of times?
You can activate any ability as often as you can pay for it, as long as there's a legal target (if necessary), and the ability doesn't specify you can only use it once per turn.

{firebreathing} is a nice example of an ability you want to squeeze every ounce of {R} in.

I stand corrected. asked on judge chat. I thought I remembered reading a ruling on {necropotence} that said if you were at 1 life you couldn't activate it but that is not correct. Thanks {{kaylesh}}!
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 06, 2015, 03:15:34 PM

Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 03, 2015, 10:22:37 PM
So you can retarget one spell to spellskite any number of times?
You can activate any ability as often as you can pay for it, as long as there's a legal target (if necessary), and the ability doesn't specify you can only use it once per turn.

{firebreathing} is a nice example of an ability you want to squeeze every ounce of {R} in.


(Messed up my quoting)
What I was trying to get at specifically was using a combo I had mentioned in the combo thread. Having {thunderbreak regent} out and using something like {blades of velis vol} to change {spellskite} to a dragon, then just wait for your opponent to cast...I guess anything...pay 16 life and do 24 damage. Would it work that way?
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 06, 2015, 04:05:52 PM
So even though you can keep paying to redirect the spell, it only counts as an effective redirection once? And if the redirection has no effect, will it still trigger thunderbreaks ability?
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: Kaylesh on July 06, 2015, 04:18:54 PM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on July 06, 2015, 04:05:52 PM
So even though you can keep paying to redirect the spell, it only counts as an effective redirection once? And if the redirection has no effect, will it still trigger thunderbreaks ability?
You can "change" the target as often as you want, in the end only one spell will resolve targeting {spellskite}. I'm even in doubt if regent would even trigger now though. BRB gonna read..
Title: Re: Good judge primer on modern interactions
Post by: LinkCelestrial on July 06, 2015, 04:23:48 PM
Wouldn't it work with two {Spellskite}s?