im thing charbelcher. I just done want to get 4 more LEDs. I have 4 already. :P
Any brilliant ideas for decks that don't play force/15 duals?
Elves!
If you're looking for a cheap deck ... LANDS!!
No force of wills! No {U} dual lands!!!
All you need is a {Tabernacle of Pendril Vale} (just a casual $700), {Rishadan Ports}, {Wastelands} oh wait nvm Lands is expensive! :D
On a serious note the cheapest deck is Manaless Dredge
Spanish Inquisition?
Pox/loam decks are sweet.
Elves ideally still needs gaea's cradle and you get the most out of it with a black splash making bayou necessary. Manaless dredge is awesome fun but not as competitive as some of the decks that can produce mana. It comes down to what your goals are. If you want to be super competitive you will need those decks that require dual lands. If you want to be semi competitive and have heaps of fun while doing it then there are options that dont require you to spend a house downpayment on its mana base.
Quote from: Taysby on June 18, 2015, 09:21:53 PM
wow. autocorrect kicked my butt there. :P
And I'm surprised you didn't say leylines. ;) I thought about elves, but it hasn't been doing that great recently.
And for the record, Elves came second about a month ago at the SCG open
Shardless bug is fcking awesome!!!
Oh wait you're on a boring budget
/QQ
Merfolk!!!
Just don't use FoW... And you pretty much a Modern deck too... Lol
Really tho: a playset of tarms, FoW and at least 2 UG seas and a bayou will get you by fine with fetches (assuming you have those)
Having 2 shocks in my build doesn't really affect me too much, it's a good way to get your deck playing rather than waiting for landbase
Why do you need 4 more if you already have 4? Do you have 4 arms and therefore can double queue real life events????
Quote from: Taysby on June 26, 2015, 01:48:02 PM
I would be loaning it out to other people so we can have legacy fnms.
If your gonna lend why not just allow proxy?
Proxy at fnm? Man thats a kitchen table thing. Any store that allows proxies at a sanctioned event will never get my business again. No matter what the circumstances I dont care if you own 20 of the card. If you are playing with a proxied version of it you deserve to be dq'd.
But thats for another discussion I suppose
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on June 26, 2015, 09:48:22 PM
Proxy at fnm? Man thats a kitchen table thing. Any store that allows proxies at a sanctioned event will never get my business again. No matter what the circumstances I dont care if you own 20 of the card. If you are playing with a proxied version of it you deserve to be dq'd.
I do see the judges decision though... If you had 4 copies of each p9 would you play them or proxy to be able to preserve them ... I guess it's everyone's opinion but there are some expensive pieces of cardboard here ... My LGS has the rule if you proxy you must show the cards first then preserve them and any player has the right to do so, our modern players proxy their tarms bc they're expensive cards
Quote from: MommaB on June 27, 2015, 05:02:18 AM
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on June 26, 2015, 09:48:22 PM
Proxy at fnm? Man thats a kitchen table thing. Any store that allows proxies at a sanctioned event will never get my business again. No matter what the circumstances I dont care if you own 20 of the card. If you are playing with a proxied version of it you deserve to be dq'd.
I do see the judges decision though... If you had 4 copies of each p9 would you play them or proxy to be able to preserve them ... I guess it's everyone's opinion but there are some expensive pieces of cardboard here ... My LGS has the rule if you proxy you must show the cards first then preserve them and any player has the right to do so, our modern players proxy their tarms bc they're expensive cards
Agree to this. I could even imagine using it like a double-faced card. Just to prevent damage from the tons of shuffles. I mean with fetches you're looking at quite a few riffles each game.
Quote from: MommaB on June 27, 2015, 05:02:18 AM
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on June 26, 2015, 09:48:22 PM
Proxy at fnm? Man thats a kitchen table thing. Any store that allows proxies at a sanctioned event will never get my business again. No matter what the circumstances I dont care if you own 20 of the card. If you are playing with a proxied version of it you deserve to be dq'd.
I do see the judges decision though... If you had 4 copies of each p9 would you play them or proxy to be able to preserve them ... I guess it's everyone's opinion but there are some expensive pieces of cardboard here ... My LGS has the rule if you proxy you must show the cards first then preserve them and any player has the right to do so, our modern players proxy their tarms bc they're expensive cards
Yeah ill just borrow my friends playset of goyf to show the judge, then give them back and then i can play with proxies for the next however long. See the way to abuse the system there?
Good luck getting away with that at a GP.
I believe if you want to play the game you use the cards. If you are worried about the value of you collection that much then maybe you should just stick to collecting. Just my 2 cents. This sorta topic is something im passionate about so i apologize if i come across as a douchebag.
Own the cards and play em
Use shocks if you don't have duals
Quote from: Taysby on June 26, 2015, 06:47:02 PM
I asked the head judge, and he said as long as I own 4 of any given card, I can proxy it for all future decks and play it at fnm. I just don't like being that chump.
Allowing proxies at a DCI Sanctioned event is a no-no.
Like, pulling DCI sanctioning of the store level no-no.
Quote from: griffin131 on June 27, 2015, 12:35:45 PM
Quote from: Taysby on June 26, 2015, 06:47:02 PM
I asked the head judge, and he said as long as I own 4 of any given card, I can proxy it for all future decks and play it at fnm. I just don't like being that chump.
Allowing proxies at a DCI Sanctioned event is a no-no.
Like, pulling DCI sanctioning of the store level no-no.
Ok.. Learn something every day.
Dci will pull the rug from under you fast
No more pptqs
No more GPTs
No more/limited prereleases
Limited FNM promos
It can get nasty fast
We do 10 proxy legacy, un sanctioned at my LGS. I like it. It allows a whole lot more people to participate than would otherwise be able to.
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on June 27, 2015, 07:37:18 AM
Quote from: MommaB on June 27, 2015, 05:02:18 AM
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on June 26, 2015, 09:48:22 PM
Proxy at fnm? Man thats a kitchen table thing. Any store that allows proxies at a sanctioned event will never get my business again. No matter what the circumstances I dont care if you own 20 of the card. If you are playing with a proxied version of it you deserve to be dq'd.
I do see the judges decision though... If you had 4 copies of each p9 would you play them or proxy to be able to preserve them ... I guess it's everyone's opinion but there are some expensive pieces of cardboard here ... My LGS has the rule if you proxy you must show the cards first then preserve them and any player has the right to do so, our modern players proxy their tarms bc they're expensive cards
Yeah ill just borrow my friends playset of goyf to show the judge, then give them back and then i can play with proxies for the next however long. See the way to abuse the system there?
Good luck getting away with that at a GP.
I believe if you want to play the game you use the cards. If you are worried about the value of you collection that much then maybe you should just stick to collecting. Just my 2 cents. This sorta topic is something im passionate about so i apologize if i come across as a douchebag.
And that's why GPs are a different level rules enforcement than FNMs ;)
Not that it matters because the proxy rules are the same at any DCI event.
Quote from: griffin131 on June 28, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
Not that it matters because the proxy rules are the same at any DCI event.
A judge can approve a "proxy" if you have the card and it's unplayable due to condition, or marked like a bent foil. It seems like these are on case by case tho.
Kinda wanna make a jund deck
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on June 28, 2015, 01:56:00 PM
Kinda wanna make a jund deck
Punishing Jund, Legacy? It's not super top tier but has been pretty consistent. Not much beats {Bloodbraid Elf} In to {Tarmogoyf} And {Punishing Fire} matches up well against a fair number of legacy threats.
Yeah just seems a lot of fun, I love the cascade effect
Then again, true name is just nasty
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on June 28, 2015, 02:16:34 PM
Then again, true name is just nasty
That's why you put things like {Engineered Plague} and {Massacre} or {Marsh Casualties}.
Quote from: Falcon182 on June 28, 2015, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on June 28, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
Not that it matters because the proxy rules are the same at any DCI event.
A judge can approve a "proxy" if you have the card and it's unplayable due to condition, or marked like a bent foil. It seems like these are on case by case tho.
Only if it gets damaged during the event.
And that's not what the conversation was about anyway - Taysby said his head judge essentially told him to proxy anything as long as he owns it.
Judge call: what defines reasonable ?
Quote from: griffin131 on June 28, 2015, 05:11:11 PM
Quote from: Falcon182 on June 28, 2015, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on June 28, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
Not that it matters because the proxy rules are the same at any DCI event.
A judge can approve a "proxy" if you have the card and it's unplayable due to condition, or marked like a bent foil. It seems like these are on case by case tho.
Only if it gets damaged during the event.
And that's not what the conversation was about anyway - Taysby said his head judge essentially told him to proxy anything as long as he owns it.
Not necessarily. I've seen a judge deck check a foiled out legacy deck and make the player replace 2 foil cards that had more bend than other cards, saying they were too easy to cut to.
Quote from: Taysby on June 28, 2015, 05:26:16 PM
*anything expensive that no reasonable person would get more than 4 of
Which still violates the DCI rules.
Quote from: Falcon182 on June 28, 2015, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on June 28, 2015, 05:11:11 PM
Quote from: Falcon182 on June 28, 2015, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: griffin131 on June 28, 2015, 11:41:16 AM
Not that it matters because the proxy rules are the same at any DCI event.
A judge can approve a "proxy" if you have the card and it's unplayable due to condition, or marked like a bent foil. It seems like these are on case by case tho.
Only if it gets damaged during the event.
And that's not what the conversation was about anyway - Taysby said his head judge essentially told him to proxy anything as long as he owns it.
Not necessarily. I've seen a judge deck check a foiled out legacy deck and make the player replace 2 foil cards that had more bend than other cards, saying they were too easy to cut to.
Just curious. Say these two cards where foil Gouda. Would you have to replace them right then, or could you run tokens to replace them for the tournament?
Typically you run proxies while they're in a hidden zone (Library, hand), but replace them with the real thing when they're in a public zone (Battlefield, graveyard, etc)
Quote from: griffin131 on June 28, 2015, 06:25:43 PM
Typically you run proxies while they're in a hidden zone (Library, hand), but replace them with the real thing when they're in a public zone (Battlefield, graveyard, etc)
Tx. BTW: Gouda was meant to be Goyfs. Just in case anyone wondered.
My playgroup uses proxies but you must own the card. It's like flip cards (Innistrad). You must own as many as you're proxy-ing and when it hits the field/stack/whatever you've gotta being out the real one.
This lets us scrubs with few selves keep our valuable cards safe as well as make swapping decks faster as you don't have to swap cards.
Ugh. If you can't afford 12 tarms then you shouldn't have 3 decks with them
Quote from: Taysby on June 29, 2015, 01:16:36 PM
It's not a question of being able to afford them. I could buy 16 {lion's eye diamond}s, I just have 0 desire to. I think 4 is plenty, when they are all my decks.
/nod
True.
Quote from: Rass on June 29, 2015, 03:01:45 PM
Quote from: Taysby on June 29, 2015, 01:16:36 PM
It's not a question of being able to afford them. I could buy 16 {lion's eye diamond}s, I just have 0 desire to. I think 4 is plenty, when they are all my decks.
/nod
True.
Agreed.
Quote from: Taysby on June 29, 2015, 01:16:36 PM
It's not a question of being able to afford them. I could buy 16 {lion's eye diamond}s, I just have 0 desire to. I think 4 is plenty, when they are all my decks.
For casual play that's fine.
For competitive, sanctioned events do everyone a favor and opt not to be lazy.
Especially because the DCI forbids what you're doing rather specifically.
By "lazy" I mean "move your cards to the deck you're playing"
Competitively you should have your deck sleeved or double sleeved and 0 proxies. If a LGS wants to put on an event so they allow 10 proxy modern or whatever that's fine. But as far as FNM and such goes you should have everything you're playing with there in paper.
Quote from: Taysby on June 29, 2015, 06:47:38 PM
I'm loaning out decks so legacy can actually happen. I would buy the cards if needed, but owning 12 LEDs is stupid.
Yeah but when you own 4, yet 12 appear in decks that you own at the same time, (if you are lending them out), that is not only not right, but not fair on the people who dont own 4, therefore they play less than 4.
That hardly applies when he's nice enough to lend decks so Legacy can happen. Just saying.
A lot of the time this debate comes down to pride and entitlement.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on June 29, 2015, 08:05:36 PM
That hardly applies when he's nice enough to lend decks so Legacy can happen. Just saying.
A lot of the time this debate comes down to pride and entitlement.
It most certainly does apply. Why should someone who is not frends with Taysby (this is by no means meant for hating on Taysby, he just happens to be the person that mentioned this) be unable to play with the cards they want when someone who is friends with someone who owns 4 copies is? Neither of them own the cards in question. In actual fact, the amout of cards in question dont even exist. Being someone Taysby would lend a deck to shouldnt be the required entry level to magic. Essentially what you are saying is that Taysby would be allowed to proxy off the entire deck a few times, give them to a few friends so they can all play in an event together, juse because he owns a playset of all the cards? Whether this is the difference between the game happening or not is completely irrelevant.
Am I 'entitled' because I paid for my cards and dont like the idea of people printing theirs for the same benefit?
Am I too proud because I wont proxy cards?
Plus the fact that it is flat out against the rules of the game, I think it is a bit rich to say I am the one with the problem here.
Quote from: Taysby on June 29, 2015, 06:47:38 PM
I'm loaning out decks so legacy can actually happen. I would buy the cards if needed, but owning 12 LEDs is stupid.
Which is worse.
What you're doing right now is against the DCI rules and can cause major problems if you're playing sanctioned events.
If Legacy can't happen because there aren't enough Legacy players, too bad.
Is it okay if I proxy 4 Snapcasters in Modern because my friend has them?
What about Raptors in standard - I don't want to pay for a playset that are going to be rotating soon - I'll just proxy them.
Stop making up excuses, just admit you're cheating (if it's sanctioned - if it's not I literally couldn't care less).
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on June 29, 2015, 09:01:32 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on June 29, 2015, 08:05:36 PM
That hardly applies when he's nice enough to lend decks so Legacy can happen. Just saying.
A lot of the time this debate comes down to pride and entitlement.
It most certainly does apply. Why should someone who is not frends with Taysby (this is by no means meant for hating on Taysby, he just happens to be the person that mentioned this) be unable to play with the cards they want when someone who is friends with someone who owns 4 copies is? Neither of them own the cards in question. In actual fact, the amout of cards in question dont even exist. Being someone Taysby would lend a deck to shouldnt be the required entry level to magic. Essentially what you are saying is that Taysby would be allowed to proxy off the entire deck a few times, give them to a few friends so they can all play in an event together, juse because he owns a playset of all the cards? Whether this is the difference between the game happening or not is completely irrelevant.
Am I 'entitled' because I paid for my cards and dont like the idea of people printing theirs for the same benefit?
Am I too proud because I wont proxy cards?
Plus the fact that it is flat out against the rules of the game, I think it is a bit rich to say I am the one with the problem here.
That's assuming some pretty interesting things about Taysby. But I'm really not interested in debating this. Everyone has their own opinion. I think people get way too uppity.
Are you completely against Untap.In and such as well?
I already said it's my opinion that at a competitive level you ought to have everything unless it's a LGS opening up a format to new players (as a non sanctioned event).
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on June 29, 2015, 10:52:54 PM
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on June 29, 2015, 09:01:32 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on June 29, 2015, 08:05:36 PM
That hardly applies when he's nice enough to lend decks so Legacy can happen. Just saying.
A lot of the time this debate comes down to pride and entitlement.
It most certainly does apply. Why should someone who is not frends with Taysby (this is by no means meant for hating on Taysby, he just happens to be the person that mentioned this) be unable to play with the cards they want when someone who is friends with someone who owns 4 copies is? Neither of them own the cards in question. In actual fact, the amout of cards in question dont even exist. Being someone Taysby would lend a deck to shouldnt be the required entry level to magic. Essentially what you are saying is that Taysby would be allowed to proxy off the entire deck a few times, give them to a few friends so they can all play in an event together, juse because he owns a playset of all the cards? Whether this is the difference between the game happening or not is completely irrelevant.
Am I 'entitled' because I paid for my cards and dont like the idea of people printing theirs for the same benefit?
Am I too proud because I wont proxy cards?
Plus the fact that it is flat out against the rules of the game, I think it is a bit rich to say I am the one with the problem here.
That's assuming some pretty interesting things about Taysby. But I'm really not interested in debating this. Everyone has their own opinion. I think people get way too uppity.
Are you completely against Untap.In and such as well?
I already said it's my opinion that at a competitive level you ought to have everything unless it's a LGS opening up a format to new players (as a non sanctioned event).
It must not be sanctioned. Maybe they do it on Friday and call if FNM. Stores can host casual events whenever and however they want, including allowing proxies and can give out FNM promos at their discretion.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on June 29, 2015, 10:52:54 PM
Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on June 29, 2015, 09:01:32 PM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on June 29, 2015, 08:05:36 PM
That hardly applies when he's nice enough to lend decks so Legacy can happen. Just saying.
A lot of the time this debate comes down to pride and entitlement.
It most certainly does apply. Why should someone who is not frends with Taysby (this is by no means meant for hating on Taysby, he just happens to be the person that mentioned this) be unable to play with the cards they want when someone who is friends with someone who owns 4 copies is? Neither of them own the cards in question. In actual fact, the amout of cards in question dont even exist. Being someone Taysby would lend a deck to shouldnt be the required entry level to magic. Essentially what you are saying is that Taysby would be allowed to proxy off the entire deck a few times, give them to a few friends so they can all play in an event together, juse because he owns a playset of all the cards? Whether this is the difference between the game happening or not is completely irrelevant.
Am I 'entitled' because I paid for my cards and dont like the idea of people printing theirs for the same benefit?
Am I too proud because I wont proxy cards?
Plus the fact that it is flat out against the rules of the game, I think it is a bit rich to say I am the one with the problem here.
That's assuming some pretty interesting things about Taysby. But I'm really not interested in debating this. Everyone has their own opinion. I think people get way too uppity.
Are you completely against Untap.In and such as well?
I already said it's my opinion that at a competitive level you ought to have everything unless it's a LGS opening up a format to new players (as a non sanctioned event).
I do get a bit passionate at times, I apologize if it comes across as offensive. It stems from years of witnessing (in both magic and life) people who are fine with following the rules, until bending them becomes beneficial for them and detrimental to others. I absolutely despise this, and sometimes get carried away.
I am fine with untap and cockatrice etc, because by definition they are non sanctioned and a great tool for playtestinflg etc. As soon as a competitive environment is introduced, then as far as I am concerned those types of things are also unacceptible.
The biggest issue I had was proxies being allowed in a sanctioned event because (insert reason here). There is absolutely no place for proxies in a competitive environment (which includes FNM) ever. This applies whether you own 1, 4, or 400 of a card, and regardless of how many people would otherwise play the event. This is not my opinion, but a default as per the rules of the game. I just can't comprehend how anyone can think the rules can ever not apply to them, that is all.
I totally agree with you about competitive magic not allowing proxies. I do agree with a marker card for your {Black Lotus} but as soon as it hits the table you put the real thing out in its triple sleeve.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on June 30, 2015, 12:52:43 AM
I totally agree with you about competitive magic not allowing proxies. I do agree with a marker card for your {Black Lotus} but as soon as it hits the table you put the real thing out in its triple sleeve.
Yeah i forgot to mention that. It is ok to do it for flip cards I dont see why it cant be used in that instance. But the real card must be used once it becomes a permanent. It cant be sitting in your wall safe at home, it must be there to be used. I am not sure of the official rules when it comes to that, but it certainly doesnt violate my (sometimes too) high ethics.
Quote from: Taysby on June 30, 2015, 01:35:38 PM
I don't pick and choose who I loan them out to, so you don't have to be my friend. Nor am I making the same deck, I'm making a variety. The head judge said that would be ok to have legacy fnm with prize support and the promo. Will I eventually get the real cards if no one else starts building decks? Yes, but very slowly.
Just so you know, I wasnt having a go at you Taysby. I think its great you are trying to grow your community. You were the one who brought it up thats why i used you in my example.
Quote from: Taysby on June 30, 2015, 01:35:38 PM
I don't pick and choose who I loan them out to, so you don't have to be my friend. Nor am I making the same deck, I'm making a variety. The head judge said that would be ok to have legacy fnm with prize support and the promo. Will I eventually get the real cards if no one else starts building decks? Yes, but very slowly.
Your head judge is quite wrong.
If someone reports your store to the DCI there will be issues if the store is reporting the results as a DCI sanctioned event.
And you're completely missing the point, but that's okay.