if I use {humble defector}'s ability, and in response I exile it with {cloudshift} will I then have an untapped {humble defector} (after everything has resolved)
Yes. Triggers go on. Cloud shift resolves, blinking defector. You draw teo cards, and then it looks make him defect, but he is a new object.
Quote from: Chargingswadger on January 25, 2015, 05:36:49 PM
Yes. Triggers go on. Cloud shift resolves, blinking defector. You draw teo cards, and then it looks make him defect, but he is a new object.
So in other words I draw two cards and keep him.
Quote from: Z5 on January 25, 2015, 05:39:56 PM
Quote from: Chargingswadger on January 25, 2015, 05:36:49 PM
Yes. Triggers go on. Cloud shift resolves, blinking defector. You draw teo cards, and then it looks make him defect, but he is a new object.
So in other words I draw two cards and keep him.
No you don't. His requirements for drawing two cards are tapping him. That would be the only time you could flicker him. There is no time after you've drawn two cards from his ability that you could cast Cloudshift
Quote from: Munchlax on January 25, 2015, 06:05:24 PM
Quote from: Z5 on January 25, 2015, 05:39:56 PM
Quote from: Chargingswadger on January 25, 2015, 05:36:49 PM
Yes. Triggers go on. Cloud shift resolves, blinking defector. You draw teo cards, and then it looks make him defect, but he is a new object.
So in other words I draw two cards and keep him.
No you don't. His requirements for drawing two cards are tapping him. That would be the only time you could flicker him. There is no time after you've drawn two cards from his ability that you could cast Cloudshift
Yes you do. you pay the costs that include tapping it, and then you receive priority. You will not yet draw the cards, but the trigger will be on the stack. You can then respond by {cloudshift}ing your defector. The draw ability is not dependent on you transferring your defector. Cloudshift will resolve first, blinking defector. Then draw ability will resolve. Note that new defector will be summoning sick.
Quote from: particle on January 25, 2015, 06:15:40 PM
Quote from: Munchlax on January 25, 2015, 06:05:24 PM
Quote from: Z5 on January 25, 2015, 05:39:56 PM
Quote from: Chargingswadger on January 25, 2015, 05:36:49 PM
Yes. Triggers go on. Cloud shift resolves, blinking defector. You draw teo cards, and then it looks make him defect, but he is a new object.
So in other words I draw two cards and keep him.
No you don't. His requirements for drawing two cards are tapping him. That would be the only time you could flicker him. There is no time after you've drawn two cards from his ability that you could cast Cloudshift
Yes you do. you pay the costs that include tapping it, and then you receive priority. You will not yet draw the cards, but the trigger will be on the stack. You can then respond by {cloudshift}ing your defector. The draw ability is not dependent on you transferring your defector. Cloudshift will resolve first, blinking defector. Then draw ability will resolve. Note that new defector will be summoning sick.
Thanks, its to bad he doesn't have haste... Hmm lemme see if I can do a red draw deck.
Quote from: Chargingswadger on January 25, 2015, 05:36:49 PM
Yes. Triggers go on. Cloud shift resolves, blinking defector. You draw two cards, and then it looks make him defect, but he is a new object.
I need some help understanding please - isn't that one of the seven exceptions?
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
400.7g A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object moved to a public zone.
Doesn't that mean that even if you exile and return the defector, the defector still goes to target opponent when its ability resolves?
Quote from: Nfidel2k on January 25, 2015, 07:06:01 PM
Quote from: Chargingswadger on January 25, 2015, 05:36:49 PM
Yes. Triggers go on. Cloud shift resolves, blinking defector. You draw two cards, and then it looks make him defect, but he is a new object.
I need some help understanding please - isn't that one of the seven exceptions?
400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence. There are seven exceptions to this rule:
400.7g A resolving spell or activated ability can perform actions on an object that moved from one zone to another while that spell was being cast or that ability was being activated, if that object moved to a public zone.
Doesn't that mean that even if you exile and return the defector, the defector still goes to target opponent when its ability resolves?
The first rule you quoted is the relevant one here. Since its a new object, it will have no connection to the old ability. The triggered ability will not find the new defector.
Edit: the amendment you provided talk about the object moving while the ability was activated. This is not what's happening. The ability has already been activated, and you are responding to it.
Ahh, so because the object was moved as a response it does not fall under the exception... Thanks!
Quote from: Nfidel2k on January 25, 2015, 07:59:36 PM
But that's where I have the confusion. The ability is on the stack and resolving, which is part of the exception. I understood the first rule to mean that if the ability had targeted the {Humble Defector}, the targeting would be negated - but since the ability does not target the defector it would resolve as normal when you draw the two cards as an exception under the second rule.
But it's not mid resolving when you cast {cloudshift}. It hasn't started to resolve at all. Then once cloudshift fully resolves, after players pass priority, the ability would resolve. The rule your quoting would only be able to find the defector if something happened during that last step where the ability is resolving.
lol too many edits. But thanks again, now I get it.
So step by step it would.
Tap {Humble Defector}
Draw 2 cards, anc target opponent gains control of it go on stack
Respond with {Cloudshift}
Cloudshift goes on stack.
Cloudshift resolves sending Humble Defector to space and then back untapped as a completely new creature.
Draw cards resolves and so does target opponent gains control, however it doesnt go to opponent because it's a completely new Humble Defector.
Is this correct?
Quote from: mickeven on January 25, 2015, 08:23:13 PM
So step by step it would.
Tap {Humble Defector}
Draw 2 cards, anc target opponent gains control of it go on stack
Respond with {Cloudshift}
Cloudshift goes on stack.
Cloudshift resolves sending Humble Defector to space and then back untapped as a completely new creature.
Draw cards resolves and so does target opponent gains control, however it doesnt go to opponent because it's a completely new Humble Defector.
Is this correct?
Yes. You draw 2, and the ability fails to find the source.
Got it. thanks dude. Now, would it be able to work with {Conjurer's Closet}? How would you time that?
Quote from: mickeven on January 25, 2015, 09:27:51 PM
Got it. thanks dude. Now, would it be able to work with {Conjurer's Closet}? How would you time that?
That's interesting. Can you activate something before a triggered ability goes off? Because you can't response to it, otherwise that would resolve in the wrong order. I feel like that wouldn't work unless you're allowed to delay single triggered events. Now if you had two end step triggers, you could probably tap defector in response to the first, then let closet stack, then start eating your pancakes.
Quote from: particle on January 25, 2015, 08:01:26 PM
Quote from: Nfidel2k on January 25, 2015, 07:59:36 PM
But that's where I have the confusion. The ability is on the stack and resolving, which is part of the exception. I understood the first rule to mean that if the ability had targeted the {Humble Defector}, the targeting would be negated - but since the ability does not target the defector it would resolve as normal when you draw the two cards as an exception under the second rule.
But it's not mid resolving when you cast {cloudshift}. It hasn't started to resolve at all. Then once cloudshift fully resolves, after players pass priority, the ability would resolve. The rule your quoting would only be able to find the defector if something happened during that last step where the ability is resolving.
This rule for abilities like: flicker this creature, then put two +1/+1 counters on it. (Imagined random ability here). Without the exception, the second part would do nothing.
Quote from: Kaylesh on January 26, 2015, 06:03:41 AM
Quote from: particle on January 25, 2015, 08:01:26 PM
Quote from: Nfidel2k on January 25, 2015, 07:59:36 PM
But that's where I have the confusion. The ability is on the stack and resolving, which is part of the exception. I understood the first rule to mean that if the ability had targeted the {Humble Defector}, the targeting would be negated - but since the ability does not target the defector it would resolve as normal when you draw the two cards as an exception under the second rule.
But it's not mid resolving when you cast {cloudshift}. It hasn't started to resolve at all. Then once cloudshift fully resolves, after players pass priority, the ability would resolve. The rule your quoting would only be able to find the defector if something happened during that last step where the ability is resolving.
This rule for abilities like: flicker this creature, then put two +1/+1 counters on it. (Imagined random ability here). Without the exception, the second part would do nothing.
Yeah, I realized after he explained it that the exception is basically why {cloudshift} can return the card to the battlefield. Thanks :)
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on January 26, 2015, 12:34:08 AM
Quote from: mickeven on January 25, 2015, 09:27:51 PM
Got it. thanks dude. Now, would it be able to work with {Conjurer's Closet}? How would you time that?
That's interesting. Can you activate something before a triggered ability goes off? Because you can't response to it, otherwise that would resolve in the wrong order. I feel like that wouldn't work unless you're allowed to delay single triggered events. Now if you had two end step triggers, you could probably tap defector in response to the first, then let closet stack, then start eating your pancakes.
that makes sense. i guess 2 Closets would work it this instance. With the first one exile some creature, in response to that tap the Defector, and then use the second Closet on the Defector.
Quote from: mickeven on January 26, 2015, 01:35:26 PM
Quote from: Oldschoolmtgnoob on January 26, 2015, 12:34:08 AM
Quote from: mickeven on January 25, 2015, 09:27:51 PM
Got it. thanks dude. Now, would it be able to work with {Conjurer's Closet}? How would you time that?
That's interesting. Can you activate something before a triggered ability goes off? Because you can't response to it, otherwise that would resolve in the wrong order. I feel like that wouldn't work unless you're allowed to delay single triggered events. Now if you had two end step triggers, you could probably tap defector in response to the first, then let closet stack, then start eating your pancakes.
that makes sense. i guess 2 Closets would work it this instance. With the first one exile some creature, in response to that tap the Defector, and then use the second Closet on the Defector.
Actually two wouldn't make a difference. You would have to react to the closet trigger (targeting your defector) by activating the humble defector's ability.
Quote from: Nfidel2k on January 26, 2015, 01:16:38 PM
Quote from: Kaylesh on January 26, 2015, 06:03:41 AM
Quote from: particle on January 25, 2015, 08:01:26 PM
Quote from: Nfidel2k on January 25, 2015, 07:59:36 PM
But that's where I have the confusion. The ability is on the stack and resolving, which is part of the exception. I understood the first rule to mean that if the ability had targeted the {Humble Defector}, the targeting would be negated - but since the ability does not target the defector it would resolve as normal when you draw the two cards as an exception under the second rule.
But it's not mid resolving when you cast {cloudshift}. It hasn't started to resolve at all. Then once cloudshift fully resolves, after players pass priority, the ability would resolve. The rule your quoting would only be able to find the defector if something happened during that last step where the ability is resolving.
This rule for abilities like: flicker this creature, then put two +1/+1 counters on it. (Imagined random ability here). Without the exception, the second part would do nothing.
Yeah, I realized after he explained it that the exception is basically why {cloudshift} can return the card to the battlefield. Thanks :)
True. Only realized that {cloudshift} is the easiest example just now :) +1 on you.
Quote from: Noblellama on January 26, 2015, 03:22:21 PM
Not to turn this into a combo thread or beat the dead-eye horse but would {Deadeye Navigator} Ability work here?
Tap defector, pay deadeye's ability to go poof and still get cards?
yeah. it would be the same as the Cloudshift. nice catch! thats a great combo!