iMtG Server: Gathering

reprint or not reprint.

Why?

No

Reasons

Lol I will expand later ;)

No.

Suck it up and pay 2 life for shocks lands to come in untapped

Yes, eventually legacy and vintage will get to the point where it only exists online. Promises are cute, but everyone has admitted it was a mistake, and I think it will be gotten rid of within a decade. Standard players lose hundreds a year, but when someone brings up reprinting a legacy staple, everyone cries foul, it's BS. This is a game, you're holding cardboard, don't complain when your cardboard isn't worth $10,000.

Well that's why you don't invest in things not on the list ;)

It's not an investment, it's a card game... Go play stocks somewhere else 😜

Quote from: Taysby on January 06, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
I'm not going to commit to spending 300 on a volcanic island if it'll just be reprinted and have a value plummet.

Lots of people don't even play legacy/vintage when it's affordable. (See mtgo)

Don't throw a hissy fit if something isn't immediately in your budget that isn't actually played that much.

I bought my duals on the expectation that if I need the money I can sell them and get my money back. It wasn't an investment, I just expect to not lose $1000+ overnight.

someone on reddit suggested that wizards abolish the reserved list and also offer to buy high value cards on the reserve list at a reasonable price, i think this would be an okay solution

The different formats were made for a reason.  If you play standard and do not have a care to enter legacy or vintage then why would you even care what happens to these cards?  They will never reprint those cards in standard even if they decided to do any type of reprint.

Now here is what I think they may do and "MAY" is the operative word.  So allow me to preface by asking what format other then legacy/vintage plays these cards and is driving demand on them?  Obviously EDH/Commander is the answer here.  So what I think is a possibility....they reprint the dual lands and some other commander staples from those old sets that are worth a ton and make them not legal for Legacy/Vintage tournaments.

The only other thing I think they could do is to make another International Collectors set that are also not legal for tournament play.

For the record....I am not for reprinting anything on the reserve list if the reprinted cards will be tournament legal.  I think people on both sides of the fence would be happy with either of those two scenarios I presented.

It is ridiculous to expect most people to just be able to spend $3000 on a legacy deck. WoTC has shown that they don't like the reserved list, they have tried to eliminate it before, and they have shown willingness to reprint $100+ cards, it really just is a manner of time. There are no solid legal restrictions against it, and people who claim breaking a promise would ruin their reputation are hilarious, because it would not keep people from buying, WotC would finally start making money from legacy/vintage, and they would please 95% of their player base. Even most major companies like SCG want the reserved list gone, they will likely make another attempt at doing away with it in the next few years.

Second post: Another problem with the high value of legacy staples is the emergence of fakes on the market. There are now fakes that pass every test but the rip test (which of course would never be done). Wizards is not going to want this because it basically screws them, so I would not be surprised if WotC got another meeting together to talk about reprinting the staples if for no other reason than to deter fakes.

I like the not tournament legal idea at least...

Just buy CE gold border cards for EDH and alter them. No one looks at the backs of your cards unless you have clear sleeves

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 06, 2015, 10:14:26 PM
Just buy CE gold border cards for EDH and alter them. No one looks at the backs of your cards unless you have clear sleeves

That is what I have done in the past but I tell people they are proxies.  I just sharpie the boarder black.  I am running an {academy rector} that way in my EDH deck until I can get a legit one.

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 06, 2015, 09:59:14 PM
It is ridiculous to expect most people to just be able to spend $3000 on a legacy deck. WoTC has shown that they don't like the reserved list, they have tried to eliminate it before, and they have shown willingness to reprint $100+ cards, it really just is a manner of time. There are no solid legal restrictions against it, and people who claim breaking a promise would ruin their reputation are hilarious, because it would not keep people from buying, WotC would finally start making money from legacy/vintage, and they would please 95% of their player base. Even most major companies like SCG want the reserved list gone, they will likely make another attempt at doing away with it in the next few years.

Nobody "expects" anyone to make a $3000 legacy deck. If you want to, do it. If you think the cards are too expensive then maybe legacy isn't for you (or the hypothetical you). Anyway, there are tons of budget legacy decks that perform well that cost less than a standard deck.

Standard is the racket here... Cards reaching $30-50 that go down to $4 when they rotate after 18 months is just ridiculous.

Quote from: cltrn81 on January 06, 2015, 10:20:17 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 06, 2015, 10:14:26 PM
Just buy CE gold border cards for EDH and alter them. No one looks at the backs of your cards unless you have clear sleeves

That is what I have done in the past but I tell people they are proxies.  I just sharpie the boarder black.  I am running an {academy rector} that way in my EDH deck until I can get a legit one.

CE stuff is pretty expensive now too. Same with international edition. A guy at my LGS had a full set of international edition that he was going to trade in. IE  {Black Lotus} is worth several hundred dollars and is NOT tournament legal. Nuts.

I dont have any dual lands or power 9 or anything like that. But i dont consider it unfair. I just wasnt playing or collecting while those cards are easily accessible. It is unfortunate for me, but it is what it is. While i would like to see a reprint i dont expect it to ever happen and i am fine with that. I still plan on seriously getting into legacy, it will just take me longer.

I made a post on the other thread that may have come across as a bit brazen, (and i certainly wasnt targeting you taysby, you just happened to be the last one to post about what i was ranting about). But i still stand by my comments. Enjoy the game for what it is. Be thankful you ever had a chance to own cards that were worth hundreds or thousands of dollars. But if they arent all of a sudden because wizards wants to run their business a certain way then, in my opinion, you should just suck it up. If its a profit you want there have  been and will be  plenty of opportunities to cash in.

Quote from: Taysby on January 06, 2015, 10:11:25 PM
Funny how the guy who doesn't really have anything expensive on the reserved list wants it to go away, and the people who have stuff want to keep it. ;)

Funny how you don't what cards I own ;)

Quote from: Taysby on January 06, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
I'm not going to commit to spending 300 on a volcanic island if it'll just be reprinted and have a value plummet.

Lots of people don't even play legacy/vintage when it's affordable. (See mtgo)

Don't throw a hissy fit if something isn't immediately in your budget that isn't actually played that much.

I bought my duals on the expectation that if I need the money I can sell them and get my money back. It wasn't an investment, I just expect to not lose $1000+ overnight.

It's not an investment, I just don't want to lose the money I spent.
Which means it's exactly an investment.

What if they just reprinted the reserved list with God-awful art? It takes down the price of the old ones, but they will still retain value because legacy players like to make their deck fancy.

Quote from: Thetrufflehunter on January 07, 2015, 12:15:05 AM
What if they just reprinted the reserved list with God-awful art? It takes down the price of the old ones, but they will still retain value because legacy players like to make their deck fancy.

Not to mention the old cards will still be worth exorbitant amounts of money due to collectability and nostalgia.

Literally MS Paint quality underground sea with Orange borders to inform the tournament organizer that you get the lower tier prize due to having crutch cards.

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 12:37:08 AM
Literally MS Paint quality underground sea with Orange borders to inform the tournament organizer that you get the lower tier prize due to having crutch cards.

So what you are saying is that you think legacy and vintage success should be based on how much you spend. Glad we cleared that up.

If its legacy picks, you should be able to pick from the ABUR pool if you have ABUR, otherwise pick from the Orange border pool of the exact same cards if card value and rarity  isn't a thing for you. If I put together an original legacy deck, I don't wanna pay $30 for a tournament where the best thing I can win is a reprint worth $20. I'd rather get a card valued at $250+, and if someone else can just essentially proxy a legal deck, well give them a proxy legal print for the prize.

It just seems like wizards has given the people who want reprints alternatives that work very well, shocks are $10 each, why can't you just suck it up and pay 2 life so you don't have to pay $300 for a UG sea?

So I don't have 3 tarmogoyfs, I only have one, ill try a hooting mandril just so I can play, I won't cry about how I can't afford to get into the format. That's what just seems to be the issue is people complain about cards that aren't easy to obtain, but were playing a collectible card game, which means it has intent to be valuable since its inception.

It's withstood many other card games and is probably being analyzed of how to market it in other forms of media. It's not going to lose value unless the world crashes itself or unless wizards/Hasbro destroys their own game thru laziness.

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 12:39:50 AM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 12:37:08 AM
Literally MS Paint quality underground sea with Orange borders to inform the tournament organizer that you get the lower tier prize due to having crutch cards.

So what you are saying is that you think legacy and vintage success should be based on how much you spend. Glad we cleared that up.

But wasn't Modern made so that there could be an accessible "Legacy" for people that didn't want to pay for the real thing? I can't expect a  Lamborghini at the price of a Pontiac. If you want the real thing, work towards getting it (pack 2 power, trading up, buying the cards). Until you get there, play the shocks (which were meant to be dual lands for people that didn't want to pay for dual lands). Drive the Pontiac until you can afford the Lamborghini.

Quote from: blackychan1 on January 07, 2015, 01:05:20 AM
But wasn't Modern made so that there could be an accessible "Legacy" for people that didn't want to pay for the real thing? I can't expect a  Lamborghini at the price of a Pontiac. If you want the real thing, work towards getting it (pack 2 power, trading up, buying the cards). Until you get there, play the shocks (which were meant to be dual lands for people that didn't want to pay for dual lands). Drive the Pontiac until you can afford the Lamborghini.

I agree completely with this. I'm currently (and very slowly might I add) assembling Legacy Elves. I have some pretty expensive pieces and I know that if I want to build it in its entirety it's going to take quite a lot more time, or at least a lot more money. Magic: the Gathering, especially Legacy, is not a poor mans hobby. If you haven't realized that at this point then you're playing the wrong game. If you want an affordable Eternal format play Modern.

But in the end this a game, and anyone who wants to play it should be able to. Even Richard Garfield said no card should cost over $20.

That's why he doesn't own it anymore :P

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 06:34:22 AM
But in the end this a game, and anyone who wants to play it should be able to. Even Richard Garfield said no card should cost over $20.

If you want to play Legacy and can't afford it, proxy your cards and play with friends. If you want to play at high stakes tournaments with big money and prizes on the line, pay up. I don't see how that's so hard to understand.

It is a Collectible Card game. Emphasis on Collectible. I like the idea of the Reserved List for the older cards, even though it was a mistake, because it maintains the collectibility of the game. No cards will be put on the Reserve List now, but every card from I think Mercadian Masques is eligible for a reprint. One of the main reasons, IMO, that Magic has not gone the way of yugimonz is because we are not massively reprinting every single card into lower and lower rarities. Wizards is doing a good job with the reprints.
On another note: Even if they did reprint duals and other "reserved" cards in a special set that wasn't Vintage legal, they still would not be legal for EDH, as "commander is played with vintage legal cards". (Mtgcommander.net)

Quote from: rarehuntertay on January 07, 2015, 11:13:16 AM
It is a Collectible Card game. Emphasis on Collectible. I like the idea of the Reserved List for the older cards, even though it was a mistake, because it maintains the collectibility of the game. No cards will be put on the Reserve List now, but every card from I think Mercadian Masques is eligible for a reprint. One of the main reasons, IMO, that Magic has not gone the way of yugimonz is because we are not massively reprinting every single card into lower and lower rarities. Wizards is doing a good job with the reprints.
On another note: Even if they did reprint duals and other "reserved" cards in a special set that wasn't Vintage legal, they still would not be legal for EDH, as "commander is played with vintage legal cards". (Mtgcommander.net)

I'm sure if they made reprints strictly for EDH accessibility they could easily make a rule for EDH only legal cards. I for one would be fine with that, as there are quite a few high end cards I could use in my EDH decks. All they would need is new borders and maybe new art so judges could see the difference. I wouldn't be okay with reserved reprints other than that specific scenario though personally.

How about reprinting the same card with different names. Example.  {Prodigal Sorcerer} And  {Zuran Spellcaster}

Say  {Volcanic Island} To something like {mountain island}.

I mean your not reprinting the card your just making a card that does the same thing.

Or just ban all cards on the reserved list. Then it would make it all a level playing field.

Would it be nice to have reserve-list reprints for EDH-only that the EDH RC would approve? Heck yeah, I'd snatch a set up in a heartbeat. Even though there are a bunch of crappy cards on the reserve list lol

Quote from: Taysby on January 07, 2015, 12:31:58 PM

Quote from: griffin131 on January 07, 2015, 12:09:14 AM

Quote from: Taysby on January 06, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
I'm not going to commit to spending 300 on a volcanic island if it'll just be reprinted and have a value plummet.

Lots of people don't even play legacy/vintage when it's affordable. (See mtgo)

Don't throw a hissy fit if something isn't immediately in your budget that isn't actually played that much.

I bought my duals on the expectation that if I need the money I can sell them and get my money back. It wasn't an investment, I just expect to not lose $1000+ overnight.

It's not an investment, I just don't want to lose the money I spent.
Which means it's exactly an investment.

Why do you buy a car with a high re-sale value?

An investment is trying to make money, which I'm not

Because it usually means it will last. Low amount of money to keep it up and running. Not really a good comparison. IMO.

Quote from: Taysby on January 07, 2015, 12:38:47 PM
Regardless, you get my point. It's not an investment, but you are buying it on the assumption that it will hold its value.

Idk. I am not thinking it's gonna hold value. I'm hoping I can sell out before the next major mass exodus of players/collectors. I have a bunch of baseball and basketball cards that I was gonna retire on but that market (late 80's to mid 90's) really didn't keep up. So I play it for fun collect stuff I can and hope for the best.

Quote from: Rass on January 07, 2015, 11:24:48 AM
How about reprinting the same card with different names. Example.  {Prodigal Sorcerer} And  {Zuran Spellcaster}

Say  {Volcanic Island} To something like {mountain island}.

I mean your not reprinting the card your just making a card that does the same thing.

Or just ban all cards on the reserved list. Then it would make it all a level playing field.

Your suggestion won't work, the reserved list says it won't reprint a card or functionally reprint a card. The second suggestion would work, but it would drastically change legacy and vintage. The only real solution is reprinting the cards, and the cards would retain at least 80% of their value because of collectability.

Or suck it up and use steam vents and pay 2 life

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 03:10:51 PM

Quote from: Rass on January 07, 2015, 11:24:48 AM
How about reprinting the same card with different names. Example.  {Prodigal Sorcerer} And  {Zuran Spellcaster}

Say  {Volcanic Island} To something like {mountain island}.

I mean your not reprinting the card your just making a card that does the same thing.

Or just ban all cards on the reserved list. Then it would make it all a level playing field.

Your suggestion won't work, the reserved list says it won't reprint a card or functionally reprint a card. The second suggestion would work, but it would drastically change legacy and vintage. The only real solution is reprinting the cards, and the cards would retain at least 80% of their value because of collectability.

Ah I never really read much into the reserved list thanks.

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 03:13:09 PM
Or suck it up and use steam vents and pay 2 life

Lol that sounds more like something taysby would say. So basically your saying (yes I am paraphrasing and putting words into your mouth) who ever has more money should get the advantages or don't play in our sandbox.

Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

Quote from: Rass on January 07, 2015, 03:56:03 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 03:13:09 PM
Or suck it up and use steam vents and pay 2 life

Lol that sounds more like something taysby would say. So basically your saying (yes I am paraphrasing and putting words into your mouth) who ever has more money should get the advantages or don't play in our sandbox.

This is how it is now. You don't have to get out of the sandbox, just know our shovel is bigger than yours.😕

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 04:32:34 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

You want to reprint but you don't want it that cheap but you want the staples to be affordable?

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 04:32:34 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

You want to reprint but you don't want it that cheap but you want the staples to be affordable?

I want a reprint, and I want the reprinted cards to be in a more affordable range ($40-100, depending on the card). I totally understand that cards can't be free or else people wouldn't buy boxes, but (a) there are fewer and fewer legacy/vintage staples every day and the format will eventually die and (b) I think the cheapest printing of a card being $300-$5000 is ridiculous. I would be perfectly fine if the ABUR dual lands never come down in price because it is a collector card, but I think there should be a cheaper printing of the card. Basically, you can have your 7 series, and I will be happy with my 3 series, but don't tell me "you can ride a bicycle in the Nascar race because it is close enough to a car."

Want to play standard, decks around $150-$300
"Oh play modern bro, totally affordable/ not stagnant" All the same decks $300-$1200
"Play legacy man, you can play any card. Oh, you can't bust out a couple grand? Too bad, should have invested in cardboard man"

Anyone who had the cards from the start or spend thousands on a game will say no, and the people who want to play say abolish it.
I understand the value of the P9 as simple collectors items, but the rest of the reserved list is ridiculous. It's like they're saying no to the people that want to play their game. With the same purpose of MM, to increase modern play, they could feasibly do a Legacy Masters. Did any of the MM reprints hurt prices? Sure. Did people lose thousands and the cards prices drop to an affordable range? No. It makes sense to try and get more people into more formats and potentially attract new players, but that's just my opinion.

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 07:38:00 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 04:32:34 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

You want to reprint but you don't want it that cheap but you want the staples to be affordable?

. Basically, you can have your 7 series, and I will be happy with my 3 series, but don't tell me "you can ride a bicycle in the Nascar race because it is close enough to a car."

But the steam vents is the 3 series
Volcanic island is the 7 series
Izzet guildgate is the bicycle

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 07:56:46 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 07:38:00 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 04:32:34 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

You want to reprint but you don't want it that cheap but you want the staples to be affordable?

. Basically, you can have your 7 series, and I will be happy with my 3 series, but don't tell me "you can ride a bicycle in the Nascar race because it is close enough to a car."

But the steam vents is the 3 series
Volcanic island is the 7 series
Izzet guildgate is the bicycle

Lol, when I say 7 series vs. 3 series, I am more referring to the pimpness or collectability of the card. For example, 7 series=Alpha {Tundra}, 3 Series=Legacy Masters {Tundra} with artwork that is literally just a picture of .poo.

How much is foil poo worth?

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 08:14:54 PM
How much is foil poo worth?

Actually, less than the normal ones. Not surprisingly, shiny .poo. isn't too popular.

Quote from: Dstyle1 on January 07, 2015, 04:57:53 PM

Quote from: Rass on January 07, 2015, 03:56:03 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 03:13:09 PM
Or suck it up and use steam vents and pay 2 life

Lol that sounds more like something taysby would say. So basically your saying (yes I am paraphrasing and putting words into your mouth) who ever has more money should get the advantages or don't play in our sandbox.

This is how it is now. You don't have to get out of the sandbox, just know our shovel is bigger than yours.😕

Lol. But my rebuttle is if that's what you need to make yourself feel better then good for you.

I only play casual so I don't care. I have access to a bunch of old cards. I'm just arguing for fun. Yes I collect (mostly sealed stuff) but I'm not counting on it keeping value (yes I'm hoping it dos increase) but I know I can have one hell of a draft in the future if I keep doing what I'm doing. (Yes spending time having fun is worth a decent amount of money)

Also if we are gonna do car comparisons. You have a fully loaded 93 BMW. I'll take the 2015 fully loaded BMW. They both cost about the same from the dealers packs were $3 but now $4. So your lands were 2 colors and untapped for the bells and whistles. My new one should be 3 colors untapped. Just saying as time goes by cars get better.

😛😛😛😛😛

You can keep that vintage one and look cool I'll take the new one with all the fun toys

I dunno
If that's a BMW m3 stick from the late 80s or early 90s it's actually worth quite a bit still & much sexier to drive than a new 3 series :P

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 07:38:00 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 04:32:34 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

You want to reprint but you don't want it that cheap but you want the staples to be affordable?

I want a reprint, and I want the reprinted cards to be in a more affordable range ($40-100, depending on the card). I totally understand that cards can't be free or else people wouldn't buy boxes, but (a) there are fewer and fewer legacy/vintage staples every day and the format will eventually die and (b) I think the cheapest printing of a card being $300-$5000 is ridiculous. I would be perfectly fine if the ABUR dual lands never come down in price because it is a collector card, but I think there should be a cheaper printing of the card. Basically, you can have your 7 series, and I will be happy with my 3 series, but don't tell me "you can ride a bicycle in the Nascar race because it is close enough to a car."

You do realise that not only do wizards not control the secondary market, but they also dont make any money from it. Therefore they dont actually give a .poo. how much it costs someone to purchase a {tundra}. They really wanted to get behind modern, because it is a format that they can do a little bit to inject some more staples into circulation without going back on their promise. They have no such luxury with legacy. The whole point of the format is that, with the exception of a ban list, every set is legal. So they cant go messing with legalities. Which sucks for those of us that dont have those cards and want to get into legacy. But it is neither unfair nor bad business practices. It just is. Wizards doesnt owe us anything. The sooner oeople realise this the easier it will all be to accept.

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 07, 2015, 10:14:46 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 07:38:00 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 04:32:34 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

You want to reprint but you don't want it that cheap but you want the staples to be affordable?

I want a reprint, and I want the reprinted cards to be in a more affordable range ($40-100, depending on the card). I totally understand that cards can't be free or else people wouldn't buy boxes, but (a) there are fewer and fewer legacy/vintage staples every day and the format will eventually die and (b) I think the cheapest printing of a card being $300-$5000 is ridiculous. I would be perfectly fine if the ABUR dual lands never come down in price because it is a collector card, but I think there should be a cheaper printing of the card. Basically, you can have your 7 series, and I will be happy with my 3 series, but don't tell me "you can ride a bicycle in the Nascar race because it is close enough to a car."

You do realise that not only do wizards not control the secondary market, but they also dont make any money from it. Therefore they dont actually give a .poo. how much it costs someone to purchase a {tundra}. They really wanted to get behind modern, because it is a format that they can do a little bit to inject some more staples into circulation without going back on their promise. They have no such luxury with legacy. The whole point of the format is that, with the exception of a ban list, every set is legal. So they cant go messing with legalities. Which sucks for those of us that dont have those cards and want to get into legacy. But it is neither unfair nor bad business practices. It just is. Wizards doesnt owe us anything. The sooner oeople realise this the easier it will all be to accept.

You do realize that by abolishing the Reserved List, Wizards could make an absurd amount of money reprinting Legacy staples and they do care about the secondary market, because if people get pissed and stop playing because of high prices, they lose money. In the end, you are wrong, it is not us thinking Wizards owes us something, breaking the Reserved List is good for WotC and the majority of the players, but they can't do it because some people think WotC owes them something (through the Reserved List).

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 10:20:54 PM

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 07, 2015, 10:14:46 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 07:38:00 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 04:32:34 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

You want to reprint but you don't want it that cheap but you want the staples to be affordable?

I want a reprint, and I want the reprinted cards to be in a more affordable range ($40-100, depending on the card). I totally understand that cards can't be free or else people wouldn't buy boxes, but (a) there are fewer and fewer legacy/vintage staples every day and the format will eventually die and (b) I think the cheapest printing of a card being $300-$5000 is ridiculous. I would be perfectly fine if the ABUR dual lands never come down in price because it is a collector card, but I think there should be a cheaper printing of the card. Basically, you can have your 7 series, and I will be happy with my 3 series, but don't tell me "you can ride a bicycle in the Nascar race because it is close enough to a car."

You do realise that not only do wizards not control the secondary market, but they also dont make any money from it. Therefore they dont actually give a .poo. how much it costs someone to purchase a {tundra}. They really wanted to get behind modern, because it is a format that they can do a little bit to inject some more staples into circulation without going back on their promise. They have no such luxury with legacy. The whole point of the format is that, with the exception of a ban list, every set is legal. So they cant go messing with legalities. Which sucks for those of us that dont have those cards and want to get into legacy. But it is neither unfair nor bad business practices. It just is. Wizards doesnt owe us anything. The sooner oeople realise this the easier it will all be to accept.

You do realize that by abolishing the Reserved List, Wizards could make an absurd amount of money reprinting Legacy staples and they do care about the secondary market, because if people get pissed and stop playing because of high prices, they lose money. In the end, you are wrong, it is not us thinking Wizards owes us something, breaking the Reserved List is good for WotC and the majority of the players, but they can't do it because some people think WotC owes them something (through the Reserved List).

That makes no sense. I dont mind people disagreeing with me, but simply saying 'you are wrong because abolishing the reserve list is good for wizards and people think they owe them something' is hardly overwhelming evidence. In fact, there is no actual evidence or facts in that statement at all. On the other hand, limited and standard are where wizards makes the majority of their money, as they are at an all time high at the moment (and that is actually supported by evidence, namely sales of packs and the popularity of the standard and limited events compared to years past).

I actually like constructive criticism, as i can learn something from it. What i dont like is being told that im wrong, while looking like the only reason is that your personal opinion is different. So if you are going to simply tell me that im wrong, i wont be paying any attention.

Quote from: Taysby on January 07, 2015, 12:31:58 PM

Quote from: griffin131 on January 07, 2015, 12:09:14 AM

Quote from: Taysby on January 06, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
I'm not going to commit to spending 300 on a volcanic island if it'll just be reprinted and have a value plummet.

Lots of people don't even play legacy/vintage when it's affordable. (See mtgo)

Don't throw a hissy fit if something isn't immediately in your budget that isn't actually played that much.

I bought my duals on the expectation that if I need the money I can sell them and get my money back. It wasn't an investment, I just expect to not lose $1000+ overnight.

It's not an investment, I just don't want to lose the money I spent.
Which means it's exactly an investment.

Why do you buy a car with a high re-sale value?

An investment is trying to make money, which I'm not

Because you want to feel good about yourself.

Caring about resale value only matters if you're going to sell. If you're never going to sell, the resale value is absolutely irrelevant. It'll never come into play. You could literally burn your cards and there'd be no difference to your wallet.

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 07, 2015, 10:33:52 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 10:20:54 PM

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 07, 2015, 10:14:46 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 07:38:00 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 04:32:34 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

You want to reprint but you don't want it that cheap but you want the staples to be affordable?

I want a reprint, and I want the reprinted cards to be in a more affordable range ($40-100, depending on the card). I totally understand that cards can't be free or else people wouldn't buy boxes, but (a) there are fewer and fewer legacy/vintage staples every day and the format will eventually die and (b) I think the cheapest printing of a card being $300-$5000 is ridiculous. I would be perfectly fine if the ABUR dual lands never come down in price because it is a collector card, but I think there should be a cheaper printing of the card. Basically, you can have your 7 series, and I will be happy with my 3 series, but don't tell me "you can ride a bicycle in the Nascar race because it is close enough to a car."

You do realise that not only do wizards not control the secondary market, but they also dont make any money from it. Therefore they dont actually give a .poo. how much it costs someone to purchase a {tundra}. They really wanted to get behind modern, because it is a format that they can do a little bit to inject some more staples into circulation without going back on their promise. They have no such luxury with legacy. The whole point of the format is that, with the exception of a ban list, every set is legal. So they cant go messing with legalities. Which sucks for those of us that dont have those cards and want to get into legacy. But it is neither unfair nor bad business practices. It just is. Wizards doesnt owe us anything. The sooner oeople realise this the easier it will all be to accept.

You do realize that by abolishing the Reserved List, Wizards could make an absurd amount of money reprinting Legacy staples and they do care about the secondary market, because if people get pissed and stop playing because of high prices, they lose money. In the end, you are wrong, it is not us thinking Wizards owes us something, breaking the Reserved List is good for WotC and the majority of the players, but they can't do it because some people think WotC owes them something (through the Reserved List).

That makes no sense. I dont mind people disagreeing with me, but simply saying 'you are wrong because abolishing the reserve list is good for wizards and people think they owe them something' is hardly overwhelming evidence. In fact, there is no actual evidence or facts in that statement at all. On the other hand, limited and standard are at an all time high at the moment (and that is actually supported by evidence, namely sales of packs and the popularity of the standard and limited events compared to years past).

I actually like constructive criticism, as i can learn something from it. What i dont like is being told that im wrong, while looking like the only reason is that your personal opinion is different. So if you are going to simply tell me that im wrong, i wont be paying any attention.

I told you you're wrong, and told you why, didn't you read the post? Wizards doesn't really make too much off of legacy and vintage currently, and they stand to make an absurd amount by reprinting cards on the reserved list (imagine Modern Masters, but with dual lands and {Force of Will}....). In the end, a few people that really weren't making WotC too much money might get mad, cards would retain a large amount of value because of their collectability, legacy and vintage would boom, and 95% of the player base would be happy. How I am not using reasoning? It does make a lot of sense: WotC=happy because much money, people without RL cards=happy to get cards, people with cards on the RL=probably unhappy, but after legacy and vintage boom their cards end up being worth more than before. This really is either a win/win/lose or a win/win/win. You claimed, "Wizards doesnt owe us anything," and I agree with you, but your application is incorrect. People expect WotC to reprint Reserved List cards because it makes them money and it makes players happy, but some people with RL cards are claiming that Wizards owes them something because of the Reserved List. So, in conclusion, you are wrong because abolishing the Reserved List and responsibly reprinting the cards ends up making everyone happy except for those who are butthurt because a promise was broken (but to be fair, depending on how the cards are reprinted, RL cards stand to sky rocket just like Modern Masters made higher end modern cards rocket). I'm sorry if you weren't able to glean that from my post, but this is what it meant.

Quote from: griffin131 on January 07, 2015, 10:47:09 PM

Quote from: Taysby on January 07, 2015, 12:31:58 PM

Quote from: griffin131 on January 07, 2015, 12:09:14 AM

Quote from: Taysby on January 06, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
I'm not going to commit to spending 300 on a volcanic island if it'll just be reprinted and have a value plummet.

Lots of people don't even play legacy/vintage when it's affordable. (See mtgo)

Don't throw a hissy fit if something isn't immediately in your budget that isn't actually played that much.

I bought my duals on the expectation that if I need the money I can sell them and get my money back. It wasn't an investment, I just expect to not lose $1000+ overnight.

It's not an investment, I just don't want to lose the money I spent.
Which means it's exactly an investment.

Why do you buy a car with a high re-sale value?

An investment is trying to make money, which I'm not

Because you want to feel good about yourself.

Caring about resale value only matters if you're going to sell. If you're never going to sell, the resale value is absolutely irrelevant. It'll never come into play. You could literally burn your cards and there'd be no difference to your wallet.

Lol, Taysby, you picked like the worst analogy ever. The reason you buy a car with a low resale value is to drive it. Just like how people buy cards to play with them.... (you know, the whole point of the game...)

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 10:48:32 PM

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 07, 2015, 10:33:52 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 10:20:54 PM

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 07, 2015, 10:14:46 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 07:38:00 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 07:11:15 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 04:32:34 PM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 07, 2015, 04:10:26 PM
Why can't people just pay 2 life? Why do you HAvE to have the volcanic island?

If you can't afford the BMW 7 series, you either don't get a BMW or you get a 3 series because you still wanna drive a BMW. So you wanna play legacy? Get the 3 series and eventually you can win the money (lands) for the 7 series (completed tier 1 Lego deck)

If this game was meant to have equal playing field then all legacy decks should be available at target for $20.

Okay, first of all, comparing cars is a TERRIBLE analogy. If it were only a matter of aesthetics that would be another matter. If you want a more accurate analogy, try this: if you want to join Nascar, but can't afford a racecar, a used Prius should be good enough.

As for the Target comment: bull. WotC is a company and it is in their best interest for cards to hold some value, but we all know WotC would never put Legacy decks into Target for $20. No one is asking for $20 decks, they are asking for an unreasonable policy that artificially inflates the values of format staples to be done away with.

You want to reprint but you don't want it that cheap but you want the staples to be affordable?

I want a reprint, and I want the reprinted cards to be in a more affordable range ($40-100, depending on the card). I totally understand that cards can't be free or else people wouldn't buy boxes, but (a) there are fewer and fewer legacy/vintage staples every day and the format will eventually die and (b) I think the cheapest printing of a card being $300-$5000 is ridiculous. I would be perfectly fine if the ABUR dual lands never come down in price because it is a collector card, but I think there should be a cheaper printing of the card. Basically, you can have your 7 series, and I will be happy with my 3 series, but don't tell me "you can ride a bicycle in the Nascar race because it is close enough to a car."

You do realise that not only do wizards not control the secondary market, but they also dont make any money from it. Therefore they dont actually give a .poo. how much it costs someone to purchase a {tundra}. They really wanted to get behind modern, because it is a format that they can do a little bit to inject some more staples into circulation without going back on their promise. They have no such luxury with legacy. The whole point of the format is that, with the exception of a ban list, every set is legal. So they cant go messing with legalities. Which sucks for those of us that dont have those cards and want to get into legacy. But it is neither unfair nor bad business practices. It just is. Wizards doesnt owe us anything. The sooner oeople realise this the easier it will all be to accept.

You do realize that by abolishing the Reserved List, Wizards could make an absurd amount of money reprinting Legacy staples and they do care about the secondary market, because if people get pissed and stop playing because of high prices, they lose money. In the end, you are wrong, it is not us thinking Wizards owes us something, breaking the Reserved List is good for WotC and the majority of the players, but they can't do it because some people think WotC owes them something (through the Reserved List).

That makes no sense. I dont mind people disagreeing with me, but simply saying 'you are wrong because abolishing the reserve list is good for wizards and people think they owe them something' is hardly overwhelming evidence. In fact, there is no actual evidence or facts in that statement at all. On the other hand, limited and standard are at an all time high at the moment (and that is actually supported by evidence, namely sales of packs and the popularity of the standard and limited events compared to years past).

I actually like constructive criticism, as i can learn something from it. What i dont like is being told that im wrong, while looking like the only reason is that your personal opinion is different. So if you are going to simply tell me that im wrong, i wont be paying any attention.

I told you you're wrong, and told you why, didn't you read the post? Wizards doesn't really make too much off of legacy and vintage currently, and they stand to make an absurd amount by reprinting cards on the reserved list (imagine Modern Masters, but with dual lands and {Force of Will}....). In the end, a few people that really weren't making WotC too much money might get mad, cards would retain a large amount of value because of their collectability, legacy and vintage would boom, and 95% of the player base would be happy. How I am not using reasoning? It does make a lot of sense: WotC=happy because much money, people without RL cards=happy to get cards, people with cards on the RL=probably unhappy, but after legacy and vintage boom their cards end up being worth more than before. This really is either a win/win/lose or a win/win/win. You claimed, "Wizards doesnt owe us anything," and I agree with you, but your application is incorrect. People expect WotC to reprint Reserved List cards because it makes them money and it makes players happy, but some people with RL cards are claiming that Wizards owes them something because of the Reserved List. So, in conclusion, you are wrong because abolishing the Reserved List and responsibly reprinting the cards ends up making everyone happy except for those who are butthurt because a promise was broken (but to be fair, depending on how the cards are reprinted, RL cards stand to sky rocket just like Modern Masters made higher end modern cards rocket). I'm sorry if you weren't able to glean that from my post, but this is what it meant.

My point was (summarised):

* wizards makes no money from the secondary market, and therfore how much a tundra costs doesnt currently feature in their business model

*they injected some staples into modern, because they wanted to, and could do so without breaking their promise

* they promised to never reprint the reserve list, and they do not 'owe it' to players to rerprint anything

*standard and limited are booming right now, and that is where they make all their money

And i also said that it is my opinion that those cards will never be reprinted, and we have no right to be mad about that

You told me that i am simply wrong, because wizards could easily make loads more money by sacrificing their reputation and making a lot of players happy while only making a few unhappy. Now while you supplied no actual evidence to support your statements, just opinion, i agree with you. What i was saying that by you saying that im wrong, and then going off on a tangent, is not cool.

Didn't wotc already reprint something or things off the reserved list?

Also with all the influx of people how many of them really care about the reserved list? With it booming right now wouldn't it be the time to try to get them into another type of play?

Quote from: GlowackAttack on January 07, 2015, 11:08:31 PM

Quote from: Rass on January 07, 2015, 11:07:14 PM
Didn't wotc already reprint something or things off the reserved list?

Also with all the influx of people how many of them really care about the reserved list? With it booming right now wouldn't it be the time to try to get them into another type of play?

phyrexian negator was made as a promo in a duel Deck I believe

Thanks. Also forgot how easy Google was

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/other/031810a

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 07, 2015, 10:58:58 PM

My point was (summarised):

* wizards makes no money from the secondary market, and therfore how much a tundra costs doesnt currently feature in their business model

*they injected some staples into modern, because they wanted to, and could do so without breaking their promise

* they promised to never reprint the reserve list, and they do not 'owe it' to players to rerprint anything

*standard and limited are booming right now, and that is where they make all their money

And i also said that it is my opinion that those cards will never be reprinted, and we have no right to be mad about that

You told me that i am simply wrong, because wizards could easily make loads more money by sacrificing their reputation and making a lot of players happy while only making a few unhappy. Now while you supplied no actual evidence to support your statements, just opinion, i agree with you. What i was saying that by you saying that im wrong, and then going off on a tangent, is not cool.

Your points in order:

-The secondary market does matter because it effects the people that buy Magic. For example, if duals were to double, forcing people out of legacy and vintage, complementary goods such as TTN and {Containment Priest} lose value, devaluing sealed product, and WotC sells less. In essence, a happy customer buys more.

-Businesses don't do things because they want to, they do things to make money. WotC printed Modern Masters because they charge $7 a pack instead of $4. It would be like printing dollar bills and then finding out you could just print $5 instead for the same price. Obviously they don't want to crash the secondary market, but they want to print as much as they can for as much as they can charge, so if you could print Legacy Masters for $20 a pack, WotC will want to do it if they can get away with it. I am sure Hasbro is already pondering the situation.

-They don't owe it to not reprint, but it is advantageous for them. Think of it this way: you don't "owe it" to your employer to take the raise, but you will be more than happy to take the cash.

-They do make money from standard and limited, but they figured out they could make even more from Modern, Legacy, etc. WotC is slowly realizing that it is stupid to only make money off of Standard and Limited, and have already started marketing Commander and Modern, so if they can find a way to make money off of Legacy and Vintage without pissing everyone off, they will.

-I think you overestimate the damage that would done to their reputation. A few people would be mad, but they have openly said that it was a mistake. Not to mention, they could easily spin it as looking out for their players.

Pre-emptive argument: Before anyone brings up Wizards cannot legally reprint the Reserved List, this is a huge gray area. The laws that "prevent" them are called Promissory Estopel, but they require a party that depends on the promise, a party that made a promise, and proof that breaking the promise would cause damages, and legally speaking it would be practically impossible to establish this.

Maybe we can just ask them to remake everything again.

Modern masters is hooking players up, reprinting fetches for khans is hooking players up, having commander product easily available and almost unlimited commander supply hooks players up, (sure it's cost $120 for a playset).

On these forums you find cards like force of will for $60-$70, you can meet up with people and find underground seas heavily beaten up for about $100-150. You can scour garage sales and find a treasure chest of cards for $20-$40.

Some men end up bald and holding onto bulk rares thinking they retain value trying to sell them all at mid tcg range (ive met the fellow several times) others have one deck they've built over time and enjoy as they carefully places their money into the collectible card game.

My point is that is not impossible to acquire the cards you want. Search harder, collect harder. I've acquired a future sight tarmogoyf with trading in standard cards at a GP. So you can trade up to the cards you want, it's all accessible for anyone. Pack to Power has happened. This forum right here has given many people duals for standard or modern cards.

Wizards reprinting stuff they said would not be reprinted is a company admitting fully to no face and only profit. Some nerds still respect honor of word.

Because with a false word, what else can you be trusted with?

What if they started printing land that comes into play untapped and it produces 2 mana of any color combo. Now everyone who has spent money on modern & legacy mana bases will replace everything with these new $5 lands that tap for double mana. What if that's how the game evolves?

Other than the duals: what do you want reprinted? {Moat}? A card that makes EDH stagnant?

Taking into consideration that standard cards have reached around $50 or so in price in the past, I highly doubt a land that good would be $5.
If they abolish the reserved list they'd make bank, invite more people to play, and it would generally be better for everyone. You can't just invest  in a game. If wizards went bankrupt tomorrow and all the cards lost their value, then what would you do? You would still play, but now they're worthless pieces of cardboard. The only people that would be upset if a reprint happened would be investors, not players.

This argument is going nowhere. Just shut it.

Quote from: Taysby on January 08, 2015, 12:43:51 AM
You don't seem to be considering net worth.
Investment:
the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

Nope. Because things like magic cards aren't very liquid - at least not at the price you want for them. Net worth is liquid capital, not things like cars or houses that aren't paid off.

QuoteI do expect to sell eventually, and buying a piece of cardboard for $300 knowing it'll crash to $10 eventually is stupid.

If you expect to sell, then it's an investment. You even defined it up there - you don't want the value to go down, so you want it to go up.

QuoteAlso, look at mtgo. Not very many people are interested in legacy and vintage. A reprint would severely damage the price of the originals. Right now, everyone who wants one has to get the original, and with the limited supply, drives prices up. If those people could buy a $10 version, they would. There would not be enough collectors to keep prices up

First of all, it's an assumption that a reprint would damage the price of the originals. Look at {Tarmogoyf}.
And I'm familiar with supply and demand - introducing more supply would increase demand past the supply point, leading to an increase in price, not a decrease as you've assumed.

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 07, 2015, 11:17:29 PM

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 07, 2015, 10:58:58 PM

My point was (summarised):

* wizards makes no money from the secondary market, and therfore how much a tundra costs doesnt currently feature in their business model

*they injected some staples into modern, because they wanted to, and could do so without breaking their promise

* they promised to never reprint the reserve list, and they do not 'owe it' to players to rerprint anything

*standard and limited are booming right now, and that is where they make all their money

And i also said that it is my opinion that those cards will never be reprinted, and we have no right to be mad about that

You told me that i am simply wrong, because wizards could easily make loads more money by sacrificing their reputation and making a lot of players happy while only making a few unhappy. Now while you supplied no actual evidence to support your statements, just opinion, i agree with you. What i was saying that by you saying that im wrong, and then going off on a tangent, is not cool.

Your points in order:

-The secondary market does matter because it effects the people that buy Magic. For example, if duals were to double, forcing people out of legacy and vintage, complementary goods such as TTN and {Containment Priest} lose value, devaluing sealed product, and WotC sells less. In essence, a happy customer buys more.

-Businesses don't do things because they want to, they do things to make money. WotC printed Modern Masters because they charge $7 a pack instead of $4. It would be like printing dollar bills and then finding out you could just print $5 instead for the same price. Obviously they don't want to crash the secondary market, but they want to print as much as they can for as much as they can charge, so if you could print Legacy Masters for $20 a pack, WotC will want to do it if they can get away with it. I am sure Hasbro is already pondering the situation.

-They don't owe it to not reprint, but it is advantageous for them. Think of it this way: you don't "owe it" to your employer to take the raise, but you will be more than happy to take the cash.

-They do make money from standard and limited, but they figured out they could make even more from Modern, Legacy, etc. WotC is slowly realizing that it is stupid to only make money off of Standard and Limited, and have already started marketing Commander and Modern, so if they can find a way to make money off of Legacy and Vintage without pissing everyone off, they will.

-I think you overestimate the damage that would done to their reputation. A few people would be mad, but they have openly said that it was a mistake. Not to mention, they could easily spin it as looking out for their players.

Pre-emptive argument: Before anyone brings up Wizards cannot legally reprint the Reserved List, this is a huge gray area. The laws that "prevent" them are called Promissory Estopel, but they require a party that depends on the promise, a party that made a promise, and proof that breaking the promise would cause damages, and legally speaking it would be practically impossible to establish this.

From my perspective all you are saying is 'you are wrong because my opinion is different'. While i agree with a lot of what you are saying, and i think it likely, it remains opinion. Hence this is only going to continue to go around in circles, so why dont we just agree that neither one of us works for wizards, therefore neither of us has all the information to be able to speak for them.

So lets say they do reprint them. Should they print enough so that every single player can have a playset or will they be in limited supply like MM and be $35 MSRP sold at $50?

Someone will still not get the items they want and will cry about money makes the game unfair

To me, those sorts of cards represent something to work towards. It would be nice to have easy access to as many of them as i want, but at the same time i believe it is best for the game that the market doesnt become saturated. If anyone can access any card any time, we may as well just all play with proxies, since the best cards would have lost their value, both monetary and collectibility. For lack of a better term, anarchy. Do you agree?

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 08, 2015, 03:52:03 AM
To me, those sorts of cards represent something to work towards. It would be nice to have easy access to as many of them as i want, but at the same time i believe it is best for the game that the market doesnt become saturated. If anyone can access any card any time, we may as well just all play with proxies, since the best cards would have lost their value, both monetary and collectibility. For lack of a better term, anarchy. Do you agree?

I agree, but I think we need a happy medium. Cards need to hold some value because we have seen what happens when they don't (Yu-gi-oh), but Wizards has been able to reprint staples without crashing the market. The other thing to consider is the longer we wait, the worse it gets. The more value Reserved List cards gain, the faller they have to potentially fall. What is essentially happening is a bubble in the market or to put it in simpler terms: people are investing in Reserved List cards because they believe that it has to be all up hill, but their view of the future is implausible.

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 08, 2015, 03:30:50 AM
money makes the game unfair

Are you saying that's not a true statement?

Quote from: griffin131 on January 07, 2015, 10:47:09 PM

Quote from: Taysby on January 07, 2015, 12:31:58 PM

Quote from: griffin131 on January 07, 2015, 12:09:14 AM

Quote from: Taysby on January 06, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
I'm not going to commit to spending 300 on a volcanic island if it'll just be reprinted and have a value plummet.

Lots of people don't even play legacy/vintage when it's affordable. (See mtgo)

Don't throw a hissy fit if something isn't immediately in your budget that isn't actually played that much.

I bought my duals on the expectation that if I need the money I can sell them and get my money back. It wasn't an investment, I just expect to not lose $1000+ overnight.

It's not an investment, I just don't want to lose the money I spent.
Which means it's exactly an investment.

Why do you buy a car with a high re-sale value?

An investment is trying to make money, which I'm not

Because you want to feel good about yourself.

Caring about resale value only matters if you're going to sell. If you're never going to sell, the resale value is absolutely irrelevant. It'll never come into play. You could literally burn your cards and there'd be no difference to your wallet.

That's what I said 😮

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 10:08:40 AM

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 08, 2015, 03:30:50 AM
money makes the game unfair

Are you saying that's not a true statement?

Just play on cockatrice or untap.in and you will see people playing the most expensive cards incorrectly or poorly played.  Competitive magic is much more then just the cards.....it is the decisions you make that make those cards powerful.

I want to expand on Muggy's statement about just pay the 2 life.  How often do you see Lego games that close where some extra shock land hits would have made a difference?  It is typically a blow out win.  I bet about 90% of the wins would not be affected if the winner of the match used a mix of shock lands and check lands instead.........and the effect would be even less if you just used (1) ABUR land so you can fetch it and run the rest as shocks.  I get one island on the board and my {glacial fortress} is as good as a {tundra} or I fetch my {hallowed fountain} at the end of my opponent's turn and now I have both basic types.  After T1, those original duals are much less powerful. 

Strategy to win when you have more resources to risk??! Crazy talk

In legacy life is a usable resource. And I'd hate to give give up resources to my opponent for free.

Quote from: Taysby on January 06, 2015, 10:13:02 PM

Quote from: fj76ts4 on January 06, 2015, 09:34:11 PM

Quote from: Taysby on January 06, 2015, 09:26:28 PM
I'm not going to commit to spending 300 on a volcanic island if it'll just be reprinted and have a value plummet.

Lots of people don't even play legacy/vintage when it's affordable. (See mtgo)

Don't throw a hissy fit if something isn't immediately in your budget that isn't actually played that much.

I bought my duals on the expectation that if I need the money I can sell them and get my money back. It wasn't an investment, I just expect to not lose $1000+ overnight.

someone on reddit suggested that wizards abolish the reserved list and also offer to buy high value cards on the reserve list at a reasonable price, i think this would be an okay solution

I'd be down for this or cltrn's suggestion.

This could work, assuming WotC is okay with it

Quote from: Dstyle1 on January 08, 2015, 12:39:25 PM
In legacy life is a usable resource. And I'd hate to give give up resources to my opponent for free.

Then get the "proper" mana base

Basically trade a few FNM wins in for 1 card at a time

@cltrn.

Yes there is more then money that makes the game. I completely understand that. That is s different argument. But then answer me this if your life was on the line to win would you want the duals or shocks?  In your stack.

Quote from: MuggyWuggy on January 08, 2015, 01:17:11 PM

Quote from: Dstyle1 on January 08, 2015, 12:39:25 PM
In legacy life is a usable resource. And I'd hate to give give up resources to my opponent for free.

Then get the "proper" mana base

Basically trade a few FNM wins in for 1 card at a time

That's why I have a proper mama base

My life like literal life and death?  I cannot see a scenario where that is applicable to magic.

Now would I play in a Lego tournament using fetches, 1 ABUR for a two color deck, and the rest a mix of shock and check lands?  Hell yes I would.  Would I have fun still?  Hell yes I would.  Would it guarantee me to lose?  Hell no it would not.

Quote from: cltrn81 on January 08, 2015, 03:00:10 PM
My life like literal life and death?  I cannot see a scenario where that is applicable to magic.

Now would I play in a Lego tournament using fetches, 1 ABUR for a two color deck, and the rest a mix of shock and check lands?  Hell yes I would.  Would I have fun still?  Hell yes I would.  Would it guarantee me to lose?  Hell no it would not.

I meant life points like the 20 you start with.

Quote from: cltrn81 on January 08, 2015, 03:00:10 PM
My life like literal life and death?  I cannot see a scenario where that is applicable to magic.

Now would I play in a Lego tournament using fetches, 1 ABUR for a two color deck, and the rest a mix of shock and check lands?  Hell yes I would.  Would I have fun still?  Hell yes I would.  Would it guarantee me to lose?  Hell no it would not.

Good way to dodge the question.

All I'm asking is to be honest. Having the duel lands and other reserved list cards gives you an advantage over people who do not. You have a mirror match vs yourself. Same deck except one can use the reserved list cards. What's the percentage the reserved list wins. I would say at least 85% or more.

Yes you can play and have fun. But what the difference in actually winning?

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 05:21:52 PM

Quote from: cltrn81 on January 08, 2015, 03:00:10 PM
My life like literal life and death?  I cannot see a scenario where that is applicable to magic.

Now would I play in a Lego tournament using fetches, 1 ABUR for a two color deck, and the rest a mix of shock and check lands?  Hell yes I would.  Would I have fun still?  Hell yes I would.  Would it guarantee me to lose?  Hell no it would not.

Good way to dodge the question.

All I'm asking is to be honest. Having the duel lands and other reserved list cards gives you an advantage over people who do not. You have a mirror match vs yourself. Same deck except one can use the reserved list cards. What's the percentage the reserved list wins. I would say at least 85% or more.

Yes you can play and have fun. But what the difference in actually winning?

I think that's a very arbitrary number. A lot more things need to be taken into consideration such as the deck itself, and even the order in which you get and use fetch lands and other in game decisions as well as the order in which your deck ends up. I don't think you could put a percentage on it. Though I have noticed that in a lot of legacy games wins aren't just wins. They are blowout wins. Especially when combo decks are involved. Of course there are the close games where it would make a difference. But I don't think you can say with anything close to certainty that the reserve list cards give an 85% better chance vs decks without them. It's all relative.

Well sometimes you have to handicap and that's where I see it.

Where would you put it at then?

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 06:20:52 PM
Well sometimes you have to handicap and that's where I see it.

Where would you put it at then?

Play enough games and I would bet the difference becomes 2-4% tops. The times when you absolutely, positively HAVE to have an untapped dual land on your turn are so infrequent for most decks, I would say the differences should be negligible.

It's not about the untapped dual it's about the loss of life from using a shockland. And as I have never played a lot of or watched a lot of reserve list vs non reserve list I wouldn't even try to put a number on it. So many things affect the outcome of a game. Yes I am sure that decks with access to those cards would have e better chance of winning, just how much better I don't think can be accurately measured. It would even change from matchup to matchup, even game to game. I just don't think it's as overwhelming as you said it was.

But then again, I could be wrong. It's been known to happen :)

Quote from: Falcon182 on January 08, 2015, 06:28:58 PM

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 06:20:52 PM
Well sometimes you have to handicap and that's where I see it.

Where would you put it at then?

Play enough games and I would bet the difference becomes 2-4% tops. The times when you absolutely, positively HAVE to have an untapped dual land on your turn are so infrequent for most decks, I would say the differences should be negligible.

The threat of having an untapped land on the field makes a big difference. Being able to not have to make the choice of paying two life help a lot so you can keep your mind free to make other decisions. I've just seen people who have similar skill level play.  The person who has the more valuable deck usually wins. Yes it can be overcome but most of the time it was that way with what I seen. I'm not gonna pull up the legacy/vintage and crunch those numbers. But there is a reason they are using the duals.

Quote from: Mr_Fahrenheit on January 08, 2015, 06:54:36 PM
It's not about the untapped dual it's about the loss of life from using a shockland. And as I have never played a lot of or watched a lot of reserve list vs non reserve list I wouldn't even try to put a number on it. So many things affect the outcome of a game. Yes I am sure that decks with access to those cards would have e better chance of winning, just how much better I don't think can be accurately measured. It would even change from matchup to matchup, even game to game. I just don't think it's as overwhelming as you said it was.

But then again, I could be wrong. It's been known to happen :)

It is about the untapped dual. You don't have to shock yourself. Assuming you have fetches, having a fetch up represents an untapped land as much as an untapped land does. When your opponent passes the turn you fetch your shock land and let it enter tap, then your next turn it becomes the same card as a abur dual for almost every purpose.

Quote from: Taysby on January 08, 2015, 12:14:54 PM

Quote from: griffin131 on January 08, 2015, 12:59:25 AM

Quote from: Taysby on January 08, 2015, 12:43:51 AM
You don't seem to be considering net worth.
Investment:
the investing of money or capital in order to gain profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value.

Nope. Because things like magic cards aren't very liquid - at least not at the price you want for them. Net worth is liquid capital, not things like cars or houses that aren't paid off.

QuoteI do expect to sell eventually, and buying a piece of cardboard for $300 knowing it'll crash to $10 eventually is stupid.

If you expect to sell, then it's an investment. You even defined it up there - you don't want the value to go down, so you want it to go up.

QuoteAlso, look at mtgo. Not very many people are interested in legacy and vintage. A reprint would severely damage the price of the originals. Right now, everyone who wants one has to get the original, and with the limited supply, drives prices up. If those people could buy a $10 version, they would. There would not be enough collectors to keep prices up

First of all, it's an assumption that a reprint would damage the price of the originals. Look at {Tarmogoyf}.
And I'm familiar with supply and demand - introducing more supply would increase demand past the supply point, leading to an increase in price, not a decrease as you've assumed.

Net worth is all of your assets, - all of your liabilities. Look it up.

I have. If it's not liquid (Magic cards aren't) it's not really an asset.

QuoteYou didn't even read the definition of investment that I gave. Nor did I ever say I bought it on the intention that the price will go up so I can make a profit. My purpose is to be able to play with them in tournaments and not end up losing a bunch of money. Hence why I'm not buying 4 goyf, because those will eventually crash.

I did read it - assuming otherwise is rude. I even referenced your definition. Perhaps you should read my post that you reply to?

You bought something. You care about resell value, which means you don't want it to depreciate. Purchases rarely stay stagnant value wise (and being an intelligent person you know that), so if you didn't want them to depreciate, you want them to appreciate.
How does that not meet your definition?

QuoteThere is nothing to back that claim up. In fact, mtgo has shown that it's exactly the opposite.

Really?  http://www.mtgstocks.com/cards/3494. Where's the value tank when MM reprinted it?  Oh wait - it went up?  Wow. So it's literally exactly what I said.

Wow. Maybe I have substantiated my claims...

How did I dodge a question when I even asked for clarification?  Either way my answer is yes and I thought that was clearly stated as well.

Because you said you would use both. But what would give you the best chance to win? Having the duals or not?

Hope my tone doesn't sound rude I'm not trying to be that guy. If so my bad.

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 08:03:57 PM
Because you said you would use both. But what would give you the best chance to win? Having the duals or not?

Hope my tone doesn't sound rude I'm not trying to be that guy. If so my bad.

There's no way to answer that. Combo decks don't care about life totals, for example.

Quote from: griffin131 on January 08, 2015, 08:19:22 PM

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 08:03:57 PM
Because you said you would use both. But what would give you the best chance to win? Having the duals or not?

Hope my tone doesn't sound rude I'm not trying to be that guy. If so my bad.

There's no way to answer that. Combo decks don't care about life totals, for example.

How can you not answer it. It's a simple question. You have a deck you build. You are using multi color . You have access to all lands. Do you put in shocks or duals.

I have said from the start.....before asked this question.....that I would run a single ABUR dual to fetch so I don't {lightning bolt} myself and I would run the rest a mix of shock/check lands.

If I was forced to chose then I would chose shock/check lands because I don't have a desire to play competitive legacy enough.  But that is me

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 08:31:04 PM
How can you not answer it. It's a simple question. You have a deck you build. You are using multi color . You have access to all lands. Do you put in shocks or duals.

If it's combo it's irrelevant which ones I use.
If it's not, I'd run 1 or 2 duals and then the rest don't matter.

Quote from: griffin131 on January 08, 2015, 08:50:14 PM

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 08:31:04 PM
How can you not answer it. It's a simple question. You have a deck you build. You are using multi color . You have access to all lands. Do you put in shocks or duals.

If it's combo it's irrelevant which ones I use.
If it's not, I'd run 1 or 2 duals and then the rest don't matter.

No, life always matter, and the 2 life, while marginal, always counts for something. The only deck you would want to play shocklands in is the {Death's Shadow} deck.

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 08, 2015, 09:05:08 PM

Quote from: griffin131 on January 08, 2015, 08:50:14 PM

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 08:31:04 PM
How can you not answer it. It's a simple question. You have a deck you build. You are using multi color . You have access to all lands. Do you put in shocks or duals.

If it's combo it's irrelevant which ones I use.
If it's not, I'd run 1 or 2 duals and then the rest don't matter.

No, life always matter, and the 2 life, while marginal, always counts for something. The only deck you would want to play shocklands in is the {Death's Shadow} deck.

What you're overlooking is that you're not often going to need to pay 2 life for it to come in untapped. Just let it come in tapped and 90% of the time it'll be the same.

Quote from: Falcon182 on January 08, 2015, 10:37:31 PM

Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on January 08, 2015, 09:05:08 PM

Quote from: griffin131 on January 08, 2015, 08:50:14 PM

Quote from: Rass on January 08, 2015, 08:31:04 PM
How can you not answer it. It's a simple question. You have a deck you build. You are using multi color . You have access to all lands. Do you put in shocks or duals.

If it's combo it's irrelevant which ones I use.
If it's not, I'd run 1 or 2 duals and then the rest don't matter.

No, life always matter, and the 2 life, while marginal, always counts for something. The only deck you would want to play shocklands in is the {Death's Shadow} deck.

What you're overlooking is that you're not often going to need to pay 2 life for it to come in untapped. Just let it come in tapped and 90% of the time it'll be the same.

No arguments on that front, just saying, that with the exception of very corner case decks ({Death's Shadow}), ABUR dual are strictly better.

From my interpretation about this is we are really only discussing the reprint of dual lands?

Legacys power comes from turn one. ( reason {mental misstep} is banned.) if I'm a combo deck I'm playing U and a {underground sea} can cast me brainstorm while also threatening daze to turn one for only 1 life loss.

The duals power is in the turn one. So I can see Cltrns discussion on running 1 dual for that turn one play and whatever after that.

Me I have cards for playing I don't care what they cost in the past or in the future. Because I'm never going to sell them, so it doesn't matter.

But up until 2 years ago I was just playing a bad stack of white cards ( DnT)

Quote from: cltrn81 on January 08, 2015, 08:37:56 PM
I have said from the start.....before asked this question.....that I would run a single ABUR dual to fetch so I don't {lightning bolt} myself and I would run the rest a mix of shock/check lands.

If I was forced to chose then I would chose shock/check lands because I don't have a desire to play competitive legacy enough.  But that is me

Really? In a money match or a match where you must win your gonna run those. I call bs on that if you had the choice you would run all the best cards you have.

But if you don't have those cards, would you just rather quit than try?

My example: i have a jeskai miracles deck but zero dual lands. I run hallowed fountains and steam vents insteas. It isnt ideal but i really want to play legacy and that is therefore my best option. I do plan on eventually getting the dual lands, one at a time. But until then i dont feel like im at a great disadvantage. Of course i am at a disadvantage, but it doesnt automatically mean my opponent is automatically at 70 or 80 % better chance. Even using previous examples, if i play against an exact mirror (both deck and player) except their deck uses dual lands, its really not that bad. The difference would be magnified against anyone playing really fast aggro or burn, but thats the risk i take. Im not just going to stop playing because i dont have the best cards. I will work towards getting them.

As a matter of full disclosure: most of the cards that I own are on the reserved list.

This topic is always a can of worms, but I'll throw my 2 cents in anyway.

The reserved list was an unfortunate mistake by WotC. While it did help keep the game alive post-chronicles, it has led to the astronomical prices of eternal cards that we see today, and their continued rise farther and farther out of reach for many players. While I understand the argument that people want to have more access to these cards (not even necessarily monetarily speaking, try finding a full set of power at your lgs at any price), it is easy to see why wotc would not abolish the list: it would harm players.

This is what I think the issue boils down to, as no one is hurt by the reserved list existing. Dissolving the reserved list would potentially result in the depreciation of players existing collections to the degree that it could potentially harm them financially.

Many of these players aren't enormously wealthy, and whether you deem their decision to over-leverage themselves in cardboard to be wise (maybe they view the reserved list as an insurance policy of sorts that they can always get a vast majority of their money back should real-life needs demand it), that does not change the fact that simply maintaining the status quo would not hurt them, and continue to not hurt anyone else.

This is why WotC has no reason to do away with the list: the current situation is hurting no one, and the game remains as popular as ever.


As for the discussion on shocks vs. duals, you are always putting yourself at a disadvantage by not running duals (unless you're playing {Death's Shadow} or {Scapeshift} :) ). There may be decks that don't always want a dual immediately untapped all of the time, but the fact that they would want it some of the time means that you are putting yourself at a disadvantage by not just running the duals. There is no situation where a dual land is worse than a shock land, but there are situations where a shock is worse than a dual. If you had equal ease of access to duals and shocks this wouldn't even be an argument.

If the option is shocks vs. something worse (like not playing legacy), then you take the hit and play shocks.