Is there a red disenchant?
Quote from: Vindog on November 11, 2014, 05:12:54 PM
Is there a red disenchant?
One of red's major weaknesses is its inability to deal with enchantments.
{Decimate}
{Destructive Revelry}
{Duergar Hedge-Mage}
{Hull Breach}
{Polis Crusher}
{Priest of Iroas}
{Thunderscape Battlemage}
That's it. As you can see, none of them are mono-red, and most are green, the remainder being white.
It's the color pie - red simply can't handle enchantments, but green and white and great at it.
Why is {Hull Breach} not worded:
Destroy target artifact and/or enchantment.
It seems overcomplicated.
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.
Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.
Quote from: Dudecore on November 11, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.
Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.
How'd Maro let that turd slip through?
EDIT: And in the same vein I think half the Planar Chaos set should have been silver bordered.
Quote from: Langku on November 11, 2014, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on November 11, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.
Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.
How'd Maro let that turd slip through?
Seems to fit the color pie perfectly to me. Chaotic removal. It's passionate, unpredictable, get out of the way but I don't care who's next!! It's a stretch, but fits. Just like blue direct damage. But that's my opinion
Quote from: rarehuntertay on November 11, 2014, 09:06:35 PM
Quote from: Langku on November 11, 2014, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on November 11, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.
Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.
How'd Maro let that turd slip through?
Seems to fit the color pie perfectly to me. Chaotic removal. It's passionate, unpredictable, get out of the way but I don't care who's next!! It's a stretch, but fits. Just like blue direct damage. But that's my opinion
Flavor does not best the color pie. Red cannot deal with enchantments, any flavor can be used to justify anything. Doesn't make it right. Chaotic removal or not, needs to say "target non-enchantment".
Quote from: Langku on November 11, 2014, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on November 11, 2014, 08:28:14 PM
{Chaos Warp} and {Pyroblast}/{Red Elemental Blast} for Blue enchantments.
Chaos Warp is a horrible, horrible color pie violation and should have never been printed.
How'd Maro let that turd slip through?
EDIT: And in the same vein I think half the Planar Chaos set should have been silver bordered.
He didnt. It was put in the 1st Commander product, he didn't design it. He would never design anything as determental to the color pie as {Chaos Warp}
They pushed the color pie limits with Planar Chaos, but most players didn't understand that. They use those cards as examples and ask "when will X be able to do X again?"
Those cards are examples of the color pie being broken, and should not be used to justify future violations. If Magic wants to make it to "a few years from now" they have to be mindful of that wheel. Once colors are able to do everything, the game ceases to function properly and is broken. Horent Queen is better, because green can have fliers, but very uncommon and at a high CMC.
Red not being able to deal with enchantments, black artifacts, white doesn't draw cards, green can't destroy creatures and blue can't really do anything to permanents once they're on the field. All of these rules have been violated at one point and it makes the game worse.
Disagree on blue not being able to do anything to perms on field. {boomerang} for reference. Has been around since legends. I'd say that's pretty solid.
Blue does rely on card draw, counters and bounce, with big seamonsters and flyers historically.
Blue is the most color pie breaking color in the game. It has been struggling to find it's exact piece of the pie since Alpha. It has stabilized over the years.
Yes, blue can bounce. But that doesn't exactly "deal" with permanents in a significant way. Blue gets a lot it crap for being busted, and rightfully so, but it you ever want to see why the color pie is important - look at Legacy. It is a shining tribute to the broken color pie ({Red Elemental Blast}/{Pyroblast} anyone?)
Quote from: Dudecore on November 16, 2014, 06:59:34 AM
look at Legacy. It is a shining tribute to the broken color pie ({Red Elemental Blast}/{Pyroblast} anyone?)
Yes but it seemed that certin colors hate each other and can be used against only that color. This really limits the card. Look at {Deathgrip} And I think there was a green one too that was against black. {Lifeforce}
{rabid hybridization} ;)
Quote from: Noblellama on November 16, 2014, 10:20:25 AM
Quote from: particle on November 16, 2014, 10:19:06 AM
{rabid hybridization} ;)
To quote 3/4 of our local card shop players
F¥€£ Gatecrash
{Pongify}. Blue can transmute creatures, it shouldn't destroy them. There has been some conversation in R&D (according to MaRo) that those polymorph cards SHOULD either exile or shuffle the creature into your library. Again, mistakes happen, they're bad for the health of the game. EDH is also a format filled with {Beast Within} and other color pie violaters because, guess what, they help you not leave 1 color to answer all of your problems. It's not good for the game, and {Chaos Warp} and {Song of the Dryads} are bad for the long term health of the game.
Well it is only legal in Legacy, Vintage and EDH. I can't help but feel like you're intentionally missing the point or playing devils advocate. Color pie violations open the door for removing the checks and balances the colors have. Flavor justification is dangerous because it can allow any and everything to happen. Players shouldn't WANT cards like {Song of the Dryads} and {Chaos Warp} to exist because it cheapens the way the game is played and what the colors mean. While it may immediately seem like "Oh awesome, I have this powerful cards now!" it's bad. {Path to Exile} and {Sword to Plowshares} are iconic cards that are color pie violations. White is the color of "answers", but it's answers have answers. You don't see a deck running white without either of those cards happily mashed in. Now we're in the position we're in where white has the best, most efficient, most effective removal in the game.
I'm not so sure {Delver of Secrets} was a color pie violation. Blue can have good creatures, and it is tied into things blue cards about - Instants and Sorceries. Now, while it seems abstract considering how many decks have been built around the card - it is very different in essence then other creatures. You see, any deck that can play Green can jam {Thragtusk} or {Tarmogoyf}. While any deck that plays blue can't jam {Delver of Secrets}. That point seems void considering Delver is now an archetype of deck, the distinction is still true.
The line is at least much finer in that regard. Delver doesn't represent a super powerful creature, it is in and of itself a card a deck must be built around. Which there is no reason to be surprised it worked out and is the favored card these days. Delver and Goyf are also in a strange way healthy for the format - because they let fair decks put a clock on unfair decks. It's just like how {Force of Will} in Legacy keeps 10+ cards off the banned list because there is a suitable answer to keep them honest. Obviously it's not the best state of affairs, but Wizards has been making new cards for 21+ years, its pretty amazing the game made it this far considering. But an easy way to destroy the game is ignoring the color pie. Pushing cards is one thing, pushing them on the wrong color is another.
I must agree with dudecore's reservations with those cards but I still can't get over how flavorful that {song of the dryads} is. Maybe if it was a {U}{G} to encompass the transmogrify/lock down mechanic.
Would polar bears be blue or green?
Color shifting is fine, as long as it doesn't fundementally allow a color to do something it's never done before. The problem with {Swords to Plowshares} or {Path to Exile} is that it allows white to have an extremely efficient, difficult to answer card that it has no business having. White exile is {Oblivion Ring}, {Banishing Light} and {Fiend Hunter}. Swords was made originally before the concept of an overarching color pie. It was also made by Richard Garfield, while a genius designer is perhaps not the world's greatest developer. Path is an homage to Swords...which is no longer a white card.
Blue has had the roughest road through the entirety of Magic. At one point it's done just about everything. Red was underpowered for so long because direct damage wasn't fairly costed (save for {Lightning Bolt} designed by Richard...) Blue and Red have swapped many abilities. But Red doesn't get card advantage anymore. It either loots (by discarding first, then draw a card) or the new Impulsive Draw (like {Chandra, Pyromaster}).
My point is, blue is unreliable as a case study for color pie adherence. It has stabilized over the past 2 or so years, loaned out some of its abilities and some adjustments to power level. Magic does have to change to keep the game going, but {Song of the Dryads} and {Chaos Warp} will sooner ruin the game then save it.
As much as I dislike both song and chaos. I don't mind them in EDH. Bc they're a 1-of and it sucks for my friend who runs {Krenko, Mob Boss} how he can't deal with some stuff but now he can I find it fine.
Song I kinda really dislike bc creature removal is not what {G} is about even if it temporary with a drawback.
Btw shouldn't the song art be Groot? Bc that's almost what you're doing lol
{Pale Bears}
Guess polar bears stay green but that islandwok!
Quote from: MuggyWuggy on November 18, 2014, 12:39:28 PM
{Pale Bears}
Guess polar bears stay green but that islandwok!
They should be white though
Green polar bears with islandwalk is oozing with flavor.
Quote from: GlowackAttack on November 18, 2014, 06:17:06 PM
Isn't song of the Dryads a card that can break up permanents? Which is the new green thing that green has been doing alot? Perhaps it should be a non creature permanent...
Correct. Green can destroy non-creature permanents. But for creatures, they need to rely on going big and beefy.
It should be non-creature in the same way {Chaos Warp} should be non-enchantment. Green destroys creatures by putting a bigger creature infront of it, or Fight.
So Dudecore, what is wrong with white exile like Swords and Path? I think it is very much in the flavor of white and has never been part of another color that I can think of.
I think Swords mechanic and {Fiend Hunter} are different entirely.
Would you rather something like {Condemn}?
White isn't supposed to have the most efficient removal. That is black, and to a smaller degree red. White is the color of answers, it's answers have answers. It's only the "flavor" of white because it was printed before the color pie meant anything. {Banishing Light}, {Oblivion Ring} and the like are white removal. {Pacifism} and {Arrest}. Not simply the best removal spell in the game. No color should have {Swords to Plowshares}, it raises the bar so high by simply making the next best possible removal spell {0} Exile target creature.
It's a power level issue as well as being a color violation. If they could redesign Magic from scratch, I'd guarantee {Swords to Plowshares} would not be a card. Same with the Dual lands. They're simply too good, too soon, with no drawbacks and make for uncreative deck construction.
Dual lands as in ABUR or all lands that tap for more than one color?
Quote from: The1337Magician on November 19, 2014, 09:39:17 PM
Dual lands as in ABUR or all lands that tap for more than one color?
ABUR
ABUR lands. The shocks are awesome, and creative, and have a drawback. No one probably thought Magic would make it this far, and it may not have without the Power 9 and Dual Lands, one cannot know. I just know that the current age of Magic design would not violate the drawback of running multiple colors by having lands with basic land types and no draw backs. It would basically remove any because to not play 2 colors, make 3 colors remarkably easy.
Also, {Swords to Plowshares} was made a long time ago, if it was made today Wizards would never hear the end of it. If you try to imagine that Wizards printed {Swords to Plowshares} in like Avacyn Restored or something, the absolute crapstorm it would cause. It might even damage the game very much. But we don't live in that continuity.
Is it just because of the cost? White should be allowed to exile, just not for a single mana.
{Angelic Edict}
{Crib Swap}
{Devouring Light}
{Dispatch}
{Excoriate}
{Last Breath}
{Pillar of Light}
{Reciprocate}
Etc.