{Thoughtsieze} or {Surgical Extraction}
Curious which one is well, "better"? I guess? they both have very useful effects, but one is reliant on graveyard, and the other only disrupts 1 card from their hand. (Although this, in both cases, can be the difference for some games.) I like both effects but am just unsure which one I'd want to invest in.
What do you all think here?
{Thoughtseize} is better. You get information of the hand and can take any nonland card. {Surgical Extraction} is cool, but it doesn't always work.
My only. ONLY issue with Thoughtsieze is that price tag XD.
Other than that I love it as a card.
{Thoughtseize}. You get rid of something you cannot deal with. {Surgical Extraction} is worse then a counterspell, as in you'd rather draw a counterspell, and more akin to milling an opponent. Those kinds of extraction effects very rarely alter an opponents game plan and just result in you losing 2 life.
We see it every time one of those extraction cards are spoiled. Some people go crazy, think they're overpowered, get the hype train going at full speed and then don't play them. The truth is you'd rather have a counter or at least removal spell, because of the potential of just guessing wrong, not having to commit and the card having to be in the graveyard.
While Mill is a strategy, sure, it is suboptimal because you're increasing their life total to 53 and never interacting with the board or denying resources.
Quote from: Dudecore on October 22, 2014, 10:05:47 PM
{Thoughtseize}. You get rid of something you cannot deal with. {Surgical Extraction} is worse then a counterspell, as in you'd rather draw a counterspell, and more akin to milling an opponent. Those kinds of extraction effects very rarely alter an opponents game plan and just result in you losing 2 life.
We see it every time one of those extraction cards are spoiled. Some people go crazy, think they're overpowered, get the hype train going at full speed and then don't play them. The truth is you'd rather have a counter or at least removal spell, because of the potential of just guessing wrong and the card having to be in the graveyard.
While Mill is a strategy, sure, it is suboptimal because you're increasing their life total to 53 and never interacting with the board or denying resources.
So, if you were to use it, it'd mainly be a sideboard card of sorts? Like you'd have to know what's in there deck for it to work.
Surgical is great for destroying a combo deck. However that combo piece needs to be in the GY first. What's a good card for that???? {thoughtseize}. Not to mention hand disruption is also great against combo decks. I would say tseize is a great 4 of in a lot of decks and surgical is typically more of a SB card. A SB card that does not see a lot of play because there are kind of better options.
Tseize wins hands down IMHO
I think you'd still want a counterspell. Bit a sideboard option could work. If you could somehow get {JeskaI Ascendancy} or {Glittering Wish} into their yard {Surgical Extraction} breaks that get up pretty well. But the truth remains, you'll almost always wish you drew a counter or a removal spell everytime {Surgical Extraction} is outside of your opening hand. Hell, you'd rather have {Thoughtseize}
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 22, 2014, 09:59:03 PM
{Thoughtseize} is better. You get information of the hand and can take any nonland card. {Surgical Extraction} is cool, but it doesn't always work.
To be fair most t1s are fetch lands, and then you could just extract that to see their hand. Yes you couldn't take anything from it, but seeing what they kept and seeing their game plan is nice as well as taking out some of their mana base.
Quote from: Dudecore on October 22, 2014, 10:19:15 PM
I think you'd still want a counterspell. Bit a sideboard option could work. If you could somehow get {JeskaI Ascendancy} or {Glittering Wish} into their yard {Surgical Extraction} breaks that get up pretty well. But the truth remains, you'll almost always wish you drew a counter or a removal spell everytime {Surgical Extraction} is outside of your opening hand. Hell, you'd rather have {Thoughtseize}
1 you seem a bit saucy about this card.
2 you'd probably never need it in those matchups cuz they don't have too much GY manipulation. (Jeskai anyways.)
So I can see it's only really for particular matchups. In particular decks
Quote from: Anoobass on October 22, 2014, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 22, 2014, 09:59:03 PM
{Thoughtseize} is better. You get information of the hand and can take any nonland card. {Surgical Extraction} is cool, but it doesn't always work.
To be fair most t1s are fetch lands, and then you could just extract that to see their hand. Yes you couldn't take anything from it, but seeing what they kept and seeing their game plan is nice as well as taking out some of their mana base.
Not sure if you are saying you can remove a land with thoughtseize. Alas you cannot....states non-land card
Quote from: Anoobass on October 22, 2014, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 22, 2014, 09:59:03 PM
{Thoughtseize} is better. You get information of the hand and can take any nonland card. {Surgical Extraction} is cool, but it doesn't always work.
To be fair most t1s are fetch lands, and then you could just extract that to see their hand. Yes you couldn't take anything from it, but seeing what they kept and seeing their game plan is nice as well as taking out some of their mana base.
Yes, but nine times out of ten you'd rather take something of your choice from their hand than get a little bit of information and have the chance of taking out a land. Honestly, both {Thoughtseize} and {Gitaxian Probe} are better at fulfilling the role.
Quote from: cltrn81 on October 22, 2014, 10:24:00 PM
Quote from: Anoobass on October 22, 2014, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 22, 2014, 09:59:03 PM
{Thoughtseize} is better. You get information of the hand and can take any nonland card. {Surgical Extraction} is cool, but it doesn't always work.
To be fair most t1s are fetch lands, and then you could just extract that to see their hand. Yes you couldn't take anything from it, but seeing what they kept and seeing their game plan is nice as well as taking out some of their mana base.
Not sure if you are saying you can remove a land with thoughtseize. Alas you cannot....states non-land card
Surgical extraction hits non basic lands so they fetch and you get to target their fetch
Why not both? Nothing better than T1 swamp into T Seize into Surgical :P
Nothing better than losing 4 life T1 ;~;
I don't think I'm being too saucy about it...its just cards like {Surgical Extraction} don't do anything for me. I've played the game a long time and have seen cards like it come and go. {Surgical Extraction} is free, yes, puts it above other similar effects as the best member of "extraction" effects. I would just rather draw something that helped me stabilize better, even a {Pithing Needle}.
I don't think it is useless, could be good in a sideboard, I'm sure that is where it is found most of the time to beat combo decks. If I were in Black, I'd sideboard in {Inquisition of Kozilek} and {Duress}.
Quote from: Mattao19 on October 22, 2014, 10:36:02 PM
Why not both? Nothing better than T1 swamp into T Seize into Surgical :P
LOL, until you realize that your opponent is playing burn.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 22, 2014, 10:41:04 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on October 22, 2014, 10:36:02 PM
Why not both? Nothing better than T1 swamp into T Seize into Surgical :P
LOL, until you realize that your opponent is playing burn.
Lol ya but if you see them playing Scapeshift or as naseum you laugh
Quote from: Millionlittlee on October 22, 2014, 10:29:07 PM
Quote from: cltrn81 on October 22, 2014, 10:24:00 PM
Quote from: Anoobass on October 22, 2014, 10:22:13 PM
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 22, 2014, 09:59:03 PM
{Thoughtseize} is better. You get information of the hand and can take any nonland card. {Surgical Extraction} is cool, but it doesn't always work.
To be fair most t1s are fetch lands, and then you could just extract that to see their hand. Yes you couldn't take anything from it, but seeing what they kept and seeing their game plan is nice as well as taking out some of their mana base.
Not sure if you are saying you can remove a land with thoughtseize. Alas you cannot....states non-land card
Surgical extraction hits non basic lands so they fetch and you get to target their fetch
Ok I get what he is saying. I thought he meant thoughtseize a land from their hand
Side note: Duress is awful. I hate it as a card.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 22, 2014, 10:41:04 PM
Quote from: Mattao19 on October 22, 2014, 10:36:02 PM
Why not both? Nothing better than T1 swamp into T Seize into Surgical :P
LOL, until you realize that your opponent is playing burn.
I don't think the burn match up is as bad as you think
I played against it with thoughtseize into surgical to take a bolt when he had two in hand so I take 4 to stop 6 and lower your card count
Quote from: Destore117 on October 22, 2014, 10:48:13 PM
Side note: Duress is awful. I hate it as a card.
In modern it's almost better than Thoughtseize!
For hand disruption in Modern it goes:
1. {Inquisition of Kozilek}
2. {Thoughtseize}
3. {Duress}
I'll consider it. Still don't like it XD
Quote from: Destore117 on October 22, 2014, 10:59:13 PM
I'll consider it. Still don't like it XD
Consider that it stops opposing discard, counterspells, and combos. Good card is good.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on October 22, 2014, 11:00:26 PM
Quote from: Destore117 on October 22, 2014, 10:59:13 PM
I'll consider it. Still don't like it XD
Consider that it stops opposing discard, counterspells, and combos. Good card is good.
Thee few times I've tried it, they had all creatures and lands. So I'm like
"WHAT DO YOU EVEN DO?!" But I can see it being useful.
A lot of the value of these cards is knowledge and learning what to play around
No love for {Despise} or {Distress}? If you always hit creatures then {Despise} over {Duress}.
I have a two headed giant built around hand disruption and {Shrieking Affliction} effects. The goal is to screw up the other guys while my team mate goes to town. They can be extremely effective and annoying. Just depends on what you're doing.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on October 23, 2014, 12:37:45 AM
No love for {Despise} or {Distress}? If you always hit creatures then {Despise} over {Duress}.
I have a two headed giant built around hand disruption and {Shrieking Affliction} effects. The goal is to screw up the other guys while my team mate goes to town. They can be extremely effective and annoying. Just depends on what you're doing.
{Underworld Dreams} + {Guttersnipe} 2HG = you lose XD
Quote from: Destore117 on October 23, 2014, 12:45:33 AM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on October 23, 2014, 12:37:45 AM
No love for {Despise} or {Distress}? If you always hit creatures then {Despise} over {Duress}.
I have a two headed giant built around hand disruption and {Shrieking Affliction} effects. The goal is to screw up the other guys while my team mate goes to town. They can be extremely effective and annoying. Just depends on what you're doing.
{Underworld Dreams} + {Guttersnipe} 2HG = you lose XD
We don't do the {Guttersnipe} lands four rules. As far as we're concerned damage lands once. So if {Crackling Doom} they'd both sac creatures but only take two. {Gray Merchant of Asphodel} inspired that house rule.
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on October 23, 2014, 12:47:58 AM
Quote from: Destore117 on October 23, 2014, 12:45:33 AM
Quote from: LinkCelestrial on October 23, 2014, 12:37:45 AM
No love for {Despise} or {Distress}? If you always hit creatures then {Despise} over {Duress}.
I have a two headed giant built around hand disruption and {Shrieking Affliction} effects. The goal is to screw up the other guys while my team mate goes to town. They can be extremely effective and annoying. Just depends on what you're doing.
{Underworld Dreams} + {Guttersnipe} 2HG = you lose XD
We don't do the {Guttersnipe} lands four rules. As far as we're concerned damage lands once. So if {Crackling Doom} they'd both sac creatures but only take two. {Gray Merchant of Asphodel} inspired that house rule.
Boo
Quote from: Destore117 on October 22, 2014, 10:37:07 PM
Nothing better than losing 4 life T1 ;~;
Hell, it's modern, T1:
{polluted delta}, fetch {Godless Shrine} untapped, then seize and extract. -7 life t1 lol.
Play both!!!! Thoughtsieze their win con then extract every copy they have
Thoughtseize, by far. Surgical Extraction can only hit cards you have already seen, and is dead turn 1. Thoughtseize can take out a threat you can't deal with, can rip out counterspells to clear the way for your combo, gives you information about your opponent's possible lines of play, informs you of what your opponent is playing during game 1, takes out a card turn 1, and can make a 3/4 Goyf on turn 2 (fetch land, Thoughtseize, and another nonsorcery, nonland card).
Quote from: Mattao19 on October 22, 2014, 10:36:02 PM
Why not both? Nothing better than T1 swamp into T Seize into Surgical :P
Goodbye {Tarmogoyf}
See you...never
I don't understand why tarmogoyf is considered like a god card >.>
I mean he's clambering up to the {Storm Crow} cloud.
Quote from: Destore117 on October 26, 2014, 12:09:45 AM
I don't understand why tarmogoyf is considered like a god card >.>
I mean he's clambering up to the {Storm Crow} cloud.
It's a $200 card for a reason trust he's a baws!!
Goyf is a way for fair decks to put a clock on. Its valuable in most formats the way {Force of Will} is in Legacy
I van get force of will but what about goyf makes him the- RUN!!!
Quote from: Destore117 on October 26, 2014, 11:43:25 AM
I van get force of will but what about goyf makes him the- RUN!!!
Turn 2 3/4 that grows into a 6/7 late game is pretty good. For CMC 2. I don't know why he's a $200 creature card but he's about as good as you can get for legacy creatures.
Oh. Mana cost is 2. That makes a lot more sense. Especially with something like Thoughtsiezing an artifact land
(2/3 + your Thoughtsieze 3/4)