Thoughts, comments, theories? Its hard to deny its happening, just why/how its gotten so bad so fast? Im just interested to hear what yall think
Although I do think America is definitely in decline, it's kinda out of perspective
Before social networking, the newspaper or news was really the only way to spread information. So back then, they didn't hear about as much stuff because it didn't travel. Of course that's not to blame for 100% of crappy stuff currently, but accounts for maybe 10%
I think another thing is that a lot of people really just don't want to work so theyre lazing of the work of others.
I just feel like everyone is slowly turning into a prepubescent girl slowly but surely.. Everything is so 'offensive' and must be 'politicall correct' because we wouldnt dare want to hurt any 'feelings' ugh.
i have to say that part of it is the no child gets left behind thing who cares if one person wins and the other loses. thats how the world works but in schools they give everyone the same thing regardless of how they actually did so the people who work hard stop working as hard because they dont get anything that the kid that sleeps all day gets so then the whole system becomes a contest to see who can do the leadt amount of work and still be able to go to the next grade or to college or a job. this process is the government slowly becoming communist (not really but its close to the same thing) and it needs to stop. if a kid cant pass a class without getting left behind then they need to be left behind. as a person with adhd and a really bad learning disability in reading and writing i can say that i had to work harder then everyone else to read and write better but i still tried. and if i would have been held back then i would have had more time to learn the stuff i needed to learn.
Quote from: MisterJH on March 31, 2014, 08:19:41 AM
I just feel like everyone is slowly turning into a prepubescent girl slowly but surely.. Everything is so 'offensive' and must be 'politicall correct' because we wouldnt dare want to hurt any 'feelings' ugh.
That's what pisses me off. I don't think I know how to be offended. Call me what you will and I'll be a bit annoyed that you're wasting my time, but not "offended," whatever that means. It's just easy to call racism or say that someone is homophobic these days. In 7th-8th grade, my friends and I called each other "fags" and "queers" all the time, but we knew it was all just in good fun. Now, if you were to call someone that, even if you're joking around, you'll get called a bigot and various PG-9 inappropriate things.
Such as the kid who made a FINGER GUN I KINDERGARTEN AND GOT IN MAJOR TROUBLE PERHAPS?!
I agree with the above poster save one thing:were moving to socialism not communism. Also thats more the dumbification of america, although it ties in. Mostly im referrig to people to spineless to stand up for themselves that they have toget government and taxpayer money involved because theyre too upset that someone called them a name, etc etc. there no such thing as 'being a man' anymore, its like that is frowned upon. I always have and always will be horribly politically incorrect, because people need to toughen up, not remove any and all controversy. Its like weve decided after millions of years that we can defy the laws of nature, have everyone succees and get along. But common sense here shows how ridiculous that is! We cant succeed without others failure as a benchmark! Without conflict we cannot know how to obtain and keep the peace! Humans cannot turn nature into a utopia, its been proven countless times! But its a losing battle, soon enough i wont be able to make fart jokes without being sued by homosexuals claiming im a racist...
Quote from: AdamS on March 31, 2014, 08:02:01 PM
i have to say that part of it is the no child gets left behind thing who cares if one person wins and the other loses. thats how the world works but in schools they give everyone the same thing regardless of how they actually did so the people who work hard stop working as hard because they dont get anything that the kid that sleeps all day gets so then the whole system becomes a contest to see who can do the leadt amount of work and still be able to go to the next grade or to college or a job. this process is the government slowly becoming communist (not really but its close to the same thing) and it needs to stop. if a kid cant pass a class without getting left behind then they need to be left behind. as a person with adhd and a really bad learning disability in reading and writing i can say that i had to work harder then everyone else to read and write better but i still tried. and if i would have been held back then i would have had more time to learn the stuff i needed to learn.
I'd like to support this a bit: I'm in middle school and at lunch teachers always make us get quiet so they can make announcements. People are always stupid and are talking when they're not supposed to be and we ALL get assigned seats. Not "detention for all the troublemakers" like it should be, they punish the whole for the mistakes of a few
Because itd be 'wrong' to get people in trouble for breaking the rules, thats sooo wrong! How does that make ANY sense?!(sarcasm)
Dimir: realize this is propaganda, likely encouraged by the government(assuming here youre in private school)
They want to reinforce the idea that everyones business is your business, so that later in life hopefully youll be horribly judgmental and try and control what other people do, because in middle school you were taught its your burden as well
Dont give in! Free your mind from propaganda!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! America is nearly ready to fall to Canadian invasion! 😈
Getting in major trouble for a finger gun?? HAH!
What about the kid who got in trouble for having a pop tart bitten into a similar shade of a finger gun.
Or how some female celebrities are trying to ostracize the word bossy.
How about the man forced to vacate his house because he refused to put away his American Flag.
I hate people. :(
Quote from: FlickerYourOwnIdentity on March 31, 2014, 11:36:20 PM
Getting in major trouble for a finger gun?? HAH!
What about the kid who got in trouble for having a pop tart bitten into a similar shade of a finger gun.
Or how some female celebrities are trying to ostracize the word bossy.
How about the man forced to vacate his house because he refused to put away his American Flag.
I hate people. :(
And don't forget the kid who was expelled for bringing a nerf gun to school
America's society has become an advocate of intolerance and ignorance, and turned away from rationale and justice. That's the best way I could sum it up in one sentence.
If something like this can be summed up, rhen yea thats pretty solid.
Quote from: FustyDavorite on April 01, 2014, 12:27:33 AM
America's society has become an advocate of intolerance and ignorance, and turned away from rationale and justice. That's the best way I could sum it up in one sentence.
Can it be proven using logic, rather than statistics or other lies?
Not everything can be proven with statistics, but just by looking at the news you can tell 'intolerance wont be tolerated.'
Its a feel good message sure, but its also a huge lie. People have every right to hate and call names and whatnot, we should be teaching our future generations to be able to handle themselves and cope with conflict, rather than run to the government and expect compensation and consolation because not everybody thinks we're the greatest thing since fudge. Im not sure exactly what youre asking or suggesting Piotr but the only lies involved are the ones we tell our children, that everythings going to be okay and everyone will get along.
Crime is crime, calling some fat or gay or ugly is NOT A CRIME! Its an opinion, and ideally sure, nobody would do that. Im not arguing that it should be accepted, but it SHOULD be tolerated because words are just that. Everyone has an opinion and all people are entitled to hate. Racism and homophobia are a right in my opinion, as long as nobody physically affects me i couldcare less what is thought of me by people with so much hate in their hearts, and thats the message that should be espoused on TV, not 'bullies will be prosecuted for callin you names, because nobody deserves to get called names.' Wake up people, every has been called a name and everybody will be at some point, i just hate that so many dont understand that and think somehow we can remedy opinion by FORCING tolerance, and forcing children who can easily be influenced to behave like robots of society.
My kids are going to be taught and raised like children have been taught and raised for centuries, by their parents, and ill be damned if the government tries to mould my children.
Quote from: FustyDavorite on April 01, 2014, 12:27:33 AM
America's society has become an advocate of intolerance and ignorance, and turned away from rationale and justice. That's the best way I could sum it up in one sentence.
I have to expand upon what youve said, as america is now a society of OVERTOLERANCE, so much so that ironically we no longer tolerate intolerant people. This goes too far in that religions(mostly European Christianity/Catholocism) are occassionally intolerable, because they do not fully tolerate everyone and everything. Its ridiculous now that people who differ from societal norms(not that its an issue) now get to criticize and criminalize those who happen to follow societal norms, when the original intolerants("normal" people in QUOTES MIND YOU) have no criminalized gays/emos/fats. Im kind of going off on tangents based on experiences that cross my mind as i type but the basic idea is the same.
Rant OVER
Quote from: Piotr on April 01, 2014, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: FustyDavorite on April 01, 2014, 12:27:33 AM
America's society has become an advocate of intolerance and ignorance, and turned away from rationale and justice. That's the best way I could sum it up in one sentence.
Can it be proven using logic, rather than statistics or other lies?
I don't agree with what he said, but statistics are not lies. If you want to prove something with pure logic and not statistics/facts, then you are limited to "a priori" ideas, and modern and classical philosophy has shown the limits of such ideas, if they even exist at all.
Also, something like what he said is always partially true and partially false. There are many people who are ignorant/intolerant and who tacitly celebrate that as a virtue...they would say they are promoting "traditional values". There are also many people who are tolerant and intelligent and are pushing the country as hard as they can into the 21st century (opponents would say they are wusses and elitists). Neither side is completely right and both sides exist. Both sides have ALWAYS existed in America to some degree (and I expect in other countries too, though that is just a guess).
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 12:06:26 PM
Crime is crime, calling some fat or gay or ugly is NOT A CRIME!
What is a crime, IMO, is the connotation that certain words carry now that they have gotten away from their true meaning, like gay, fag, retard.
Gay means happy. Fag is to tire out or to fray a rope. Retard means to make slow. Anyone else know of any words that now have a negative meaning in today's society??
http://m.dictionary.com/definition/fag
http://m.dictionary.com/definition/retard
Fag is also a bundle of wood
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 05:36:32 PM
You can get statistics to say whatever you want them to, so they could possibly be lies.
You are completely right. But then the interpretation of the statistics or the presentation of them is misleading. But statistics themselves (as long as the researchers arn't lying) are not inherently incorrect.
Examples. The research saying that pregnant women should avoid even moderate alcohol consumption in the third trimester that is most often quoted did not correct for the fact that a large percent of their drinking moms also did cocain while pregnant (you can force a pregnant test subject to get drunk, you have to take your drunks as you find them...and every study about excessive drinking during pregnancy has correctly shown it to be very bad, so don't think I am advocating drunken pregnancies, I am not). So there the statistics were correct but the interpretation was a lie.
On the other hand, the only research showing a link between modern vaccines and autism was proven to have falsified its data, the researcher admitted he had lied about the data itself, and he has lost at least one of his licenses since then. There the data itself was a lie.
I guess I was over broad the first time I spoke. If the data isn't lies, then it is facts, though these facts may be of limited value depending on the quality and size of a study. The statistics are an analysis of that data, and while statistics can be used in a misleading fashion, statistics are not always misleading at all...categorically saying that statistics are lies is flippant and overly generalized at best, and is an ignorant lie at worst.
Quote from: Ieatfood7 on April 01, 2014, 05:25:15 PM
Quote from: Piotr on April 01, 2014, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: FustyDavorite on April 01, 2014, 12:27:33 AM
America's society has become an advocate of intolerance and ignorance, and turned away from rationale and justice. That's the best way I could sum it up in one sentence.
Can it be proven using logic, rather than statistics or other lies?
I don't agree with what he said, but statistics are not lies. If you want to prove something with pure logic and not statistics/facts, then you are limited to "a priori" ideas, and modern and classical philosophy has shown the limits of such ideas, if they even exist at all.
Also, something like what he said is always partially true and partially false. There are many people who are ignorant/intolerant and who tacitly celebrate that as a virtue...they would say they are promoting "traditional values". There are also many people who are tolerant and intelligent and are pushing the country as hard as they can into the 21st century (opponents would say they are wusses and elitists). Neither side is completely right and both sides exist. Both sides have ALWAYS existed in America to some degree (and I expect in other countries too, though that is just a guess).
the only reason I would say what I said is to describe the degradation of America's society. Of course there always is a vast amount of people that are beneficial to society, and so my summation statement could probably use some rephrasing. Regardless, I stand behind what I've said. From my viewpoint, if pop culture (popular culture) is to stand for what the majority of Americans pursue in their lifetimes, then I see nothing worthwhile. The "American Dream" is mow malformed. It now means, "Become as successful as you can in life and get ahead by any means necessary."
This of course is excluding those individuals who have separated themselves from this way of life.
As for the statistics argument, I believe statistics to be just as valuable a source of information and evidence as any other. And just as any other source, it's difficult to find solid truth and reasoning in it.
This is not a post about statistics
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 07:15:04 PM
This is not a post about statistics
Haha that's how public forums work! ".love. your topic, we're talking about this now!" :P
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 08:55:29 PM
Indeed .love. this topic. Were talkig about statistics now. ;)
I can take any set of data, warp the significance level, and voila! I can get it to say the exact opposite of what it should be saying. Take a statistics class. It really opens your eyes. Now, whenever I hear someone say a statistic, I ignore them and sometimes ask for the actual data.
I've taken two statistics classes. And yes you can mess with sample size, significance level, confidence level, and everything else to skew your results however you want but in the same way you can screw with every other source of relevant information and evidence. It just requires effort and a little to get correct information, just like with everything else
Lol. True. Back to the topic though.
See my above responce about how America is not as ignorant/backwards not as wussy as it is made out to be, and its a little of both.
I think most of the things you are complaining about are merely overreaction a to problems. I'm sure you agree that verbal/mental/emotional abuse is a thing that exists and I'm sure you agree that it should be outlawed. I'm sure we can all agree that there is a difference between abuse people should be protected from and merely "insensitive" talk that people should be free to say wherever however they want. It's just a question of where to draw the line. American has set the line too short in some places and too far in some.
No i think emotional abuse is the biggest joke in the world. Its basically saying 'someones words are more powerful than your self esteem'
Its not an overreaction, its having my eyes open to whats happening. You can disagree but do NOT tell me what i think and feel, thats way overstepping your freedoms. Id go so far as to say its emotional abuse ;)
And for anyone whos confused on what im trying to say: YES i believe i can say the most vile horrible things imaginable to whoever i want, assuming i dont threaten their physical well being. That is my right to freedom of speech, even if i choose to abuse it. I am absolutely saying that.
Quote from: Ieatfood7 on April 01, 2014, 05:25:15 PM
Quote from: Piotr on April 01, 2014, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: FustyDavorite on April 01, 2014, 12:27:33 AM
America's society has become an advocate of intolerance and ignorance, and turned away from rationale and justice. That's the best way I could sum it up in one sentence.
Can it be proven using logic, rather than statistics or other lies?
I don't agree with what he said, but statistics are not lies. If you want to prove something with pure logic and not statistics/facts, then you are limited to "a priori" ideas, and modern and classical philosophy has shown the limits of such ideas, if they even exist at all.
Also, something like what he said is always partially true and partially false. There are many people who are ignorant/intolerant and who tacitly celebrate that as a virtue...they would say they are promoting "traditional values". There are also many people who are tolerant and intelligent and are pushing the country as hard as they can into the 21st century (opponents would say they are wusses and elitists). Neither side is completely right and both sides exist. Both sides have ALWAYS existed in America to some degree (and I expect in other countries too, though that is just a guess).
This isnt about tolerance vs. intolerance either, this is about tolerance being forced upon us. This is about people actually getting in trouble for being intolerant, which they should be qble to do as they wish. Its about legal action or disciplinary action being taken to defend people who are 'insulted.' Because noone should have to stand up for themselves apparently.
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 10:27:56 PM
This isnt about tolerance vs. intolerance either, this is about tolerance being forced upon us. This is about people actually getting in trouble for being intolerant, which they should be qble to do as they wish. Its about legal action or disciplinary action being taken to defend people who are 'insulted.' Because noone should have to stand up for themselves apparently.
So you are advocating bullying, harassment, racism and other atrocities of humanity? No one should be allowed to be intolerant of others, we should all just respect each other.
Im not advocating someone do it, hey ive said multiple times i agree its WRONG, so read thoroughly before making claims on MY claims. However it is not somethig that should be legally enforced, unless it gets to the point of stalking harassment. So Taysby youre not understanding me either. This is about quote unquote wussification of America, in that people consider it the governments business to ensure noones feelings are hurt. To be even more clear than i have before: YES I THINK HARASSMENT IS A RIGHT, although horribly morally wrong. Society and the norms assure plenty well enough that harassment is not commonplace, and when it occurs i think its up to the person to have a higher sense of self worth than to let name calling(for example) dictate their mood or behavior. What this is ABOUT is people being unable to cope, and government/authority actually punishing intolerance, as if words were as powerful as a punch. And if you argue they are, then it seems im rather directy referring to you.
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:01:39 PM
There's a difference between harassment and saying that being gay isn't good because god said it was bad.
Harassment would be
You're gay? Why? It's an atrocity, you're a horrible person for being gay, you should go kill yourself.
Other option
Being gay isn't good. God said so, but I still respect you as a person.
Harassment is excessive, intentionally hurtful things.
First of all, you can't prove that your God exists and you have no right to push your ideology on others. You have the right to believe that being homosexual is immoral, but gays have the right to be gay and they should not be persecuted for it.
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:01:39 PM
There's a difference between harassment and saying that being gay isn't good because god said it was bad.
Harassment would be
You're gay? Why? It's an atrocity, you're a horrible person for being gay, you should go kill yourself.
Other option
Being gay isn't good. God said so, but I still respect you as a person.
Harassment is excessive, intentionally hurtful things.
Where is it said that gaynsss is wrong? I do believe it also says not to judge someone for the choices they make.
Quote from: Death, the Kid on April 01, 2014, 11:09:03 PM
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:01:39 PM
There's a difference between harassment and saying that being gay isn't good because god said it was bad.
Harassment would be
You're gay? Why? It's an atrocity, you're a horrible person for being gay, you should go kill yourself.
Other option
Being gay isn't good. God said so, but I still respect you as a person.
Harassment is excessive, intentionally hurtful things.
Where is it said that gaynsss is wrong? I do believe it also says not to judge someone for the choices they make.
It was said a man is made for a woman, and implied very strongly. Sodom was a horribly sinful place(biblically) that was sent up in a blazing pillar. I think its clear that the bible did not support homosexuality, although it never explicitly said 'homosexuals are terrible and will go to hell.' so if youd like to cling onto the lack of direct forbidance be my guest, im indifferent. However this is besides the point again. I encourage you to make a separate post about this if you desire to discuss further, i will gladly contribute without getting too angry or being a bigot. I encourage debate even if im firmly set in my ways
Quote from: Death, the Kid on April 01, 2014, 11:09:03 PM
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:01:39 PM
There's a difference between harassment and saying that being gay isn't good because god said it was bad.
Harassment would be
You're gay? Why? It's an atrocity, you're a horrible person for being gay, you should go kill yourself.
Other option
Being gay isn't good. God said so, but I still respect you as a person.
Harassment is excessive, intentionally hurtful things.
Where is it said that gaynsss is wrong? I do believe it also says not to judge someone for the choices they make.
^This is why I left Christianity, way too much hippocracy.
Ephesians 4:32 ESV
"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you."
I'd also like to point out that all mentions of anti-homosexuality are in the old testament, which is completely counteracted in the new testament, where Jesus basically states 'if you believe in God, you will be forgiven.'
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 11:12:29 PM
Quote from: Death, the Kid on April 01, 2014, 11:09:03 PM
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:01:39 PM
There's a difference between harassment and saying that being gay isn't good because god said it was bad.
Harassment would be
You're gay? Why? It's an atrocity, you're a horrible person for being gay, you should go kill yourself.
Other option
Being gay isn't good. God said so, but I still respect you as a person.
Harassment is excessive, intentionally hurtful things.
Where is it said that gaynsss is wrong? I do believe it also says not to judge someone for the choices they make.
It was said a man is made for a woman, and implied very strongly. Sodom was a horribly sinful place(biblically) that was sent up in a blazing pillar. I think its clear that the bible did not support homosexuality, although it never explicitly said 'homosexuals are terrible and will go to hell.' so if youd like to cling onto the lack of direct forbidance be my guest, im indifferent. However this is besides the point again. I encourage you to make a separate post about this if you desire to discuss further, i will gladly contribute without getting too angry or being a bigot. I encourage debate even if im firmly set in my ways
Fair point, unhikacked!
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on April 01, 2014, 11:12:58 PM
Quote from: Death, the Kid on April 01, 2014, 11:09:03 PM
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:01:39 PM
There's a difference between harassment and saying that being gay isn't good because god said it was bad.
Harassment would be
You're gay? Why? It's an atrocity, you're a horrible person for being gay, you should go kill yourself.
Other option
Being gay isn't good. God said so, but I still respect you as a person.
Harassment is excessive, intentionally hurtful things.
Where is it said that gaynsss is wrong? I do believe it also says not to judge someone for the choices they make.
^This is why I left Christianity, way too much hippocracy.
Ephesians 4:32 ESV
"Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you."
Although many in the church are hypocritical in this way, the correct stance of the church(skewed by many) is that homosexuals should not be married, in the christian sense of the word, as it bastardizes the bibles definition of union between a man and a woman. And the church should not sanction homosexuals, because they directly violate above mentioned 'union between man and woman.' That being said, a vast majority of church goers commit mortal sin regularly, so its a terrible argument unless you are a die hard Christian. In which case you disagree with homosexuality, and do not accept them into the church, but also follow the bibles teachings and do not judge.
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:27:44 PM
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 11:07:03 PM
Im not advocating someone do it, hey ive said multiple times i agree its WRONG, so read thoroughly before making claims on MY claims. However it is not somethig that should be legally enforced, unless it gets to the point of stalking harassment. So Taysby youre not understanding me either. This is about quote unquote wussification of America, in that people consider it the governments business to ensure noones feelings are hurt. To be even more clear than i have before: YES I THINK HARASSMENT IS A RIGHT, although horribly morally wrong. Society and the norms assure plenty well enough that harassment is not commonplace, and when it occurs i think its up to the person to have a higher sense of self worth than to let name calling(for example) dictate their mood or behavior. What this is ABOUT is people being unable to cope, and government/authority actually punishing intolerance, as if words were as powerful as a punch. And if you argue they are, then it seems im rather directy referring to you.
Harassment makes people feel really bad. Punching someone in the face makes someone feel really bad. They both should be illegal to do. There's a fine line between harassment and standing up for what you believe in.
Yes, but if your beliefs are offensive to others, you should be considerate of their feelings
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:34:36 PM
The same could be said in the opposite directions. Their views are "offensive" to me. Why should I have to be quiet just because I'm on the other side of the debate.
Like If I say "being fat is unhealthy it makes you sick more, makes you more suceptible to heart disease, etc" and they find it offensive because they're fat, I should still be able to tell them that and not have to keep quiet. I'm not harassing them and saying "your fat, you're ugly, no one likes you". I'm just saying my views in a way that shouldn't hurt their feelings.
Because they have should to right to live how they want to, but you shouldn't have the right to criticize them. Say what you want behind their back, crack jokes with your friends, but saying hurtful things to their face isn't constructive in any way.
Ok youre missing the point. First of all, getting punched in the face is DANGEROUS, and infringes another persons right to safety. Thats vastly different than making someone 'feel bad.'
Harrassment in the sense of if its only when you happen to see this person, guess what? Grow some kahonas and get over it. However if they go out of their way to harassc wellthats also stalking behavior, i think that should be strictly illegal. Look none of these arguments are quite touching on my point, although i can tell that you are more on the side of 'everyone should have to tolerate,' what im saying is being skewed and misinterpreted, and also you are assuming it seems that im talking about following someone around to harass the shizza out of them.
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:25:31 PM
I can't remember exactly where, but somewhere it says "a man who lies with another man must be stoned". Voila, the bible teaches being gay is bad.
Now I'm not saying you should be mean to them, you should let them be gay if they want, but you should be able to say "yeah, my values say that being gay is wrong" and not have people get upset with you. It's all in respecting other people as people, yet still being able to say your values, and what you believe in.
from a Christian perspective, I would like everyone to note that he isn't actually saying that every man must be stoned that sleeps with another man. The passage actually goes like this, "It would be better for a man to be stoned that to sleep with another man," and should be seen in the same light as, "If your hand causes you to sin, it would be better to cut it off than to let it cause you to sin again." He isn't actually asking you to cut off your hand, he is conveying the severity of sinning. And Agrus, while I understand your issues of intolerant "Christians" (believe me, I know them), I don't consider them Christians. Christians are followers of Jesus Christ, and not hypocrites. And you are right, Christians are in no place to judge. We are stuck in the same sinful nature as everyone else. But sin is still sin, and homosexuality is a sin, so from our view homosexuality is wrong. But we sin just as much as a homosexual, and we are no better than them.
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 11:46:55 PM
Ok youre missing the point. First of all, getting punched in the face is DANGEROUS, and infringes another persons right to safety. Thats vastly different than making someone 'feel bad.'
Verbal abuse has been shown to actually leave physical indicators in people's brain. Also, many people kill themselves and hurt themselves over what people say. Why can't people just not be douches? Wouldn't that solve all of our problems?
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on April 01, 2014, 11:38:05 PM
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:34:36 PM
The same could be said in the opposite directions. Their views are "offensive" to me. Why should I have to be quiet just because I'm on the other side of the debate.
Like If I say "being fat is unhealthy it makes you sick more, makes you more suceptible to heart disease, etc" and they find it offensive because they're fat, I should still be able to tell them that and not have to keep quiet. I'm not harassing them and saying "your fat, you're ugly, no one likes you". I'm just saying my views in a way that shouldn't hurt their feelings.
Because they have should to right to live how they want to, but you shouldn't have the right to criticize them. Say what you want behind their back, crack jokes with your friends, but saying hurtful things to their face isn't constructive in any way.
Ok here is where i get really upset.. I shouldnt have the right to hurt your feelings? What gives you the right to never be upset? Since when, from the dawn of time, does anyone have a 'right' to never face conflict? Thats actually a minor example, what Taysby used, in regards to telling someone obesity is unhealthy. Thats a polite and respectful way to pose your agreements and opinions. I just am astounded that you have the audacity to say i have no RIGHT to say something that might make someone feel bad. The facts are lfe has conflicts. If it makes you feel that bad you either need help with self esteem or maybe you realize your morbid obesity is actually somethig to feel bad about. I have EVERY RIGHT to say that and many other things, to whoever i want whenever i want. You have quite directly said freedom of speech should not be quite so free. you have told me my basic human rights as defined by the Constitution as well as just basic acknowledgment by civilized society should not be so. I SHOULD have a right to say that to someones face, i should absolutely be able to make people aware that their harming themselves, alog with ABSOLUTELY being allowed to tell someone i think gay people are going tohell(a more extreme example, not a personal viewpoint).
Vegetarians can hate in meat eaters all day long, same thing. Ugh i dont even know how to fully express how much fault i find in you saying i HAVE NO RIGHT to say something that might make another feel bad. I suppose you also believe one could successfully build one of the fad utopian societies as well? The ones which have been proven to work, because guess what. Sometimes you have to feel bad. Its hard to function without being able to tolerate 'feeling bad.'
Learn to deal with someone calling you fat rather than infringing on their rights because of horribly damaged sense of self worth or your own lack of knowledge of conflict resolution. Hey, come back and call that person a bigot, make them feel bad. Guess what, that IS YOUR RIGHT.
LR;DR. The main point is: Don't be a .rearexit. for the sake of being a .rearexit.. The world would be a lot better place if people were more considerate of others. There is literally no argument that can persuade me otherwise, so this is the last I will post on this subject.
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 10:23:11 PM
No i think emotional abuse is the biggest joke in the world. Its basically saying 'someones words are more powerful than your self esteem'
Its not an overreaction, its having my eyes open to whats happening. You can disagree but do NOT tell me what i think and feel, thats way overstepping your freedoms. Id go so far as to say its emotional abuse ;)
I have no idea whether to take you seriously or whether you are just a troll. I will risk feeding a troll and assume you are serous.
I sincerely appologize for accidentally putting words in your mouth. That was not my intent. I assumed I was talking with a reasonable adult, not a troll and or ignorant person and or sociopath.
First, I want to steer away from any specific topic, as the correctness of homosexuality etc is not the issue.
Second, of course psycogival abuse exists. Psych
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on April 01, 2014, 11:54:00 PM
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 11:46:55 PM
Ok youre missing the point. First of all, getting punched in the face is DANGEROUS, and infringes another persons right to safety. Thats vastly different than making someone 'feel bad.'
Verbal abuse has been shown to actually leave physical indicators in people's brain. Also, many people kill themselves and hurt themselves over what people say. Why can't people just not be douches? Wouldn't that solve all of our problems?
Oh yes, yes indeed, but youre speaking in ideals. Which is the cause of this 'issue' in america. The world will never be an ideal place, and if you believe it can you will die sorely disappointed. Also, to be verbally abused chances are you have to stick around(in cases of abuse by partners, family members post legal age, etc). Of course in the case of verbally abusing a child, that could be considered neglect which is definitely illegal, i agree it should be. Thats horrible. However if someone able to think and speak for themselves allows verbal abuse, its as much their fault. And it should be noted that a lot of the problems are caused by previous generation's failure to properly prepare their offpspring for the real world, opting instead to raise them according to these ideals. so i understand some people are not well equipped to deal with this. The thing is, everyone should be, its part of a healthy psyche, and i feel awful for those who commit suicide over bullying, because its the direct fault of their guardians that they could not handle such an event. However it is NOT the bullies fault they took it to such extremes and committed such an act. Sure, they were huge weiner shnizzles, but its the childs inability to cope that lead to such an event. If it were under the control of a bully, well guess what? Id be dead. Most kids would. So many deal with bullying, but when properly raised and prepared they should and will e able to handle it, because thats the nature ofthis world.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on April 01, 2014, 11:59:11 PM
LR;DR. The main point is: Don't be a .rearexit. for the sake of being a .rearexit.. The world would be a lot better place if people were more considerate of others. There is literally no argument that can persuade me otherwise, so this is the last I will post on this subject.
Well im not tryig to convice you otherwise, so im fairly sure you completely missed what ive been saying. I agree, people should be more considerate. Myy argument is against the belief that being inconsiderate should be punishable by law, which now happens. The frequency i do not know, but it does happen and its because of a lack of ability to cope with conflict, thus giving a 'bully' more control than you yourself have, which is just absolutely bull crap.
...psychological toeture is real. See extreme cases of stalking. See the book 1984 ( he was beaten severely but it was the psychological torture that broke him). It is obvious that "just words" can do extreme harm to anyone if applied correctly.
Saying that such actions should not be legislated is to say that the psychologically strong should be able to hurt the psychologically weak with impunity. You go gather and say that such actions should not be socially unacceptable ( important note!most of the examples in this thread are not illegal...politically incorrect means it us legal but that you face social repercussions for it. In some societies in American being non Christian is socially unacceptable though not illegal. In some being a biblical literalist is socially unacceptable but not illegal. No word is illegal in America. Racism is not illegal (firing someone from their job due to racism is, but vrrbalizing your racism is not illegal). They are just unacceptable. The law only steps in when you cross the line to abuse/assault/threats, and hardly ever then. Google"intentional infliction of emotional distress" and see how very very very hard it is to win on that theory).
A person can have their life forever ruined by emotional and psychological damage, just as much as by physical damage. If a persons body is weak, a light punch could make their body be unable to go on living. If a person's mind/will is weak, a light mental assault could make their mind be unable to go on. (I am not saying you can't ever hurt feelings, just the te principals exist that psychological harm is real and dangerous.)
Quote from: Ieatfood7 on April 02, 2014, 12:02:38 AM
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 10:23:11 PM
No i think emotional abuse is the biggest joke in the world. Its basically saying 'someones words are more powerful than your self esteem'
Its not an overreaction, its having my eyes open to whats happening. You can disagree but do NOT tell me what i think and feel, thats way overstepping your freedoms. Id go so far as to say its emotional abuse ;)
I have no idea whether to take you seriously or whether you are just a troll. I will risk feeding a troll and assume you are serous.
I sincerely appologize for accidentally putting words in your mouth. That was not my intent. I assumed I was talking with a reasonable adult, not a troll and or ignorant person and or sociopath.
First, I want to steer away from any specific topic, as the correctness of homosexuality etc is not the issue.
Second, of course psycogival abuse exists. Psych
It does exist. So do "hate crimes" which are just regular crimes that just so happen to be done to a minority(in a majority of cases, barring thigs like burning a cross on someones lawn, which is obviously directed towards hatig a religion, and goes into the 'stalker' type of harassment).
Ironically, you have called me ignorant and a troll(which i am neither) which 'makes me feel bad.' Also, you never seemed to have finished your post. And if youre so logical why can you not seem to understand what im saying? I didnt claim psychological abuse doesnt exist. Ive done and said nothing sociopathic. In fact i have stated multiple times i agree being intolerant is wrong, im a VERY tolerant person if you cant tell from me not name calling with my panties in a bunch(which is what you resort to). My argument is with how sensitive society has truly become, never once have i argued a different point per se, and never once have i advocated harassment, name calling, intolerance, abuse, homophobia, or any of the other various things youd likely accuse me of supporting. Saying someone has a right to be a douche is significantly different than advocating such behavior, as i have not attempted to further or encourage such behavior. If youre such a mature adult who follows reason you should probably have understood that. Id appreciate you not posting again because you cant seem to handle conversation. However feel free if youd like, i will read and fairly acknowledge what you have to say, as its very hard to put me to the point where i just ignore you. If youve got somethig logical and relevant to say, be my guest. Its your right
Sorry for the split post above...a continuation from a few posts back. I accidentally clicked send halfway through and a lot of people posted in the interim.
Quote from: Ieatfood7 on April 02, 2014, 12:14:15 AM
...psychological toeture is real. See extreme cases of stalking. See the book 1984 ( he was beaten severely but it was the psychological torture that broke him). It is obvious that "just words" can do extreme harm to anyone if applied correctly.
Saying that such actions should not be legislated is to say that the psychologically strong should be able to hurt the psychologically weak with impunity. You go gather and say that such actions should not be socially unacceptable ( important note!most of the examples in this thread are not illegal...politically incorrect means it us legal but that you face social repercussions for it. In some societies in American being non Christian is socially unacceptable though not illegal. In some being a biblical literalist is socially unacceptable but not illegal. No word is illegal in America. Racism is not illegal (firing someone from their job due to racism is, but vrrbalizing your racism is not illegal). They are just unacceptable. The law only steps in when you cross the line to abuse/assault/threats, and hardly ever then. Google"intentional infliction of emotional distress" and see how very very very hard it is to win on that theory).
A person can have their life forever ruined by emotional and psychological damage, just as much as by physical damage. If a persons body is weak, a light punch could make their body be unable to go on living. If a person's mind/will is weak, a light mental assault could make their mind be unable to go on. (I am not saying you can't ever hurt feelings, just the te principals exist that psychological harm is real and dangerous.)
And you refer to abusive cases that also involve physical harm. If you go from beginning to finish, im mostly referring to the fact that political correctness is becomig close to illegal now, as making a finger gun may be politically incorrect in school, yet a child faced very real repercussions. Of course it evolved into wether someone should be allowed to call some a fat tub of lard, or a fag etc, and what i argue is that its up to the person being targeted to handle such things, as they happen and will always happen. Someone will always be ready to put you down. To be a healthy functioning individual id argue youd have to get bullied at some point, just to understand. And if youre healthy chances are youll brush it off like most, and though i may upset you thats the extent, and hopefully not too bad. My argument is not that constant harassment should be legal, although i do agree that for one to remain in a verbally abusive relationship for example, they are lacking the ability to handle themselves which is partially their fault, or the fault of their improper raising. For the most part its made out to seem as if im actively trying to have people hurt other when really im using those as examples to portray oversensitivity and the trend to shelter children from conflict rather than have them develop a healthy self esteem.
I can't stand America. I plan on traveling the world and settling where I feel is right.
I agree that people get offended to easily, but at the same time people are way to anxious to insult. Sadly. empathy seems to be a think of the past. I'm trying to make a revival, but the good news is nature constantly evolves.
Quote from: PapaBudz on April 02, 2014, 12:27:00 AM
I can't stand America. I plan on traveling the world and settling where I feel is right.
I agree that people get offended to easily, but at the same time people are way to anxious to insult. Sadly. empathy seems to be a think of the past. I'm trying to make a revival, but the good news is nature constantly evolves.
I also wouldnt mind leaving America one day. Ya empathy is an art rather than a base trait nowadays.
Quote from: Spencer Addington on April 02, 2014, 03:10:58 AM
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 11:12:29 PM
Quote from: Death, the Kid on April 01, 2014, 11:09:03 PM
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 11:01:39 PM
There's a difference between harassment and saying that being gay isn't good because god said it was bad.
Harassment would be
You're gay? Why? It's an atrocity, you're a horrible person for being gay, you should go kill yourself.
Other option
Being gay isn't good. God said so, but I still respect you as a person.
Harassment is excessive, intentionally hurtful things.
Where is it said that gaynsss is wrong? I do believe it also says not to judge someone for the choices they make.
It was said a man is made for a woman, and implied very strongly. Sodom was a horribly sinful place(biblically) that was sent up in a blazing pillar. I think its clear that the bible did not support homosexuality, although it never explicitly said 'homosexuals are terrible and will go to hell.' so if youd like to cling onto the lack of direct forbidance be my guest, im indifferent. However this is besides the point again. I encourage you to make a separate post about this if you desire to discuss further, i will gladly contribute without getting too angry or being a bigot. I encourage debate even if im firmly set in my ways
Your religion supports the owning of human beings.... How are you not disgusted by that?
...? What? I never even stated my religion, much lesss affiliated with one that supports slavery.
? Never once did i say i supported any religion, and i know i did not claim to be a bible beater. Although you caught me, i am a Christian :O. Not a strict one by any means, it just fits my beliefs best, if libertarian were a religion thats what id be haha. Truthfully i disagree with many of the official standing of the church, id almost go so far as to most. I hardly keep up with them though cuz ive got my own belief system.
There, you got me!
Also to be clear: i do NOT believe there is an inferior race!
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 10:23:11 PM
No i think emotional abuse is the biggest joke in the world. Its basically saying 'someones words are more powerful than your self esteem'
Its not an overreaction, its having my eyes open to whats happening. You can disagree but do NOT tell me what i think and feel, thats way overstepping your freedoms. Id go so far as to say its emotional abuse ;)
Ok. Now think about this. Everyday of your life, for 13+ years, you are told that you are lazy, a piece of poo, and will never amount to anything. Now imagine that this is coming from a family member who is supposed to raising you. Eventually, your self-esteem, self-confidence will break down. That is all I heard from age 4 to age 18, when I finally was able to leave. I am now 33. I have undergone years of therapy, with little results, since those words are so firmly entrenched in my psyche now. I didn't find out until 7 years ago that I was clinically depressed, because to me, I was normal. So, back on point, whether you believe it or not, emotionally/psychological abuse is real, and regardless of your beliefs, your self-esteem/self-confidence can be broken.
It just took me about 15 minutes to type all this due to difficulty of opening up about such a sensitive issue.
Quote from: rarehuntertay on April 02, 2014, 07:45:40 AM
Quote from: MisterJH on April 01, 2014, 10:23:11 PM
No i think emotional abuse is the biggest joke in the world. Its basically saying 'someones words are more powerful than your self esteem'
Its not an overreaction, its having my eyes open to whats happening. You can disagree but do NOT tell me what i think and feel, thats way overstepping your freedoms. Id go so far as to say its emotional abuse ;)
Ok. Now think about this. Everyday of your life, for 13+ years, you are told that you are lazy, a piece of poo, and will never amount to anything. Now imagine that this is coming from a family member who is supposed to raising you. Eventually, your self-esteem, self-confidence will break down. That is all I heard from age 4 to age 18, when I finally was able to leave. I am now 33. I have undergone years of therapy, with little results, since those words are so firmly entrenched in my psyche now. I didn't find out until 7 years ago that I was clinically depressed, because to me, I was normal. So, back on point, whether you believe it or not, emotionally/psychological abuse is real, and regardless of your beliefs, your self-esteem/self-confidence can be broken.
It just took me about 15 minutes to type all this due to difficulty of opening up about such a sensitive issue.
If you go through this post, i speciically touched on situations where the abuse comes from a guardian, someone who is supposed to nurture you that you cannot simply leave from. Thank you for openin up but im on your side on this one, thats a horrible case of neglect in raising your child and im truly sorry for anyone who must go through that. However i did mention such cases, and clarified that i was referring more to people who remain in verbally abusive relationships etc. i cant blame you for missing that cuz ive posted about 50 super long messages, but just know im not saying you deserved it or to suck it up. I know how traumatizing being raised in an environment that doesnt nurtjre you could possibly be, and im sorry man i hope youve been able to recover. .poo. must be rough as hell :/
Quote from: FustyDavorite on April 01, 2014, 09:19:20 PM
Quote from: Taysby on April 01, 2014, 08:55:29 PM
Indeed .love. this topic. Were talkig about statistics now. ;)
I can take any set of data, warp the significance level, and voila! I can get it to say the exact opposite of what it should be saying. Take a statistics class. It really opens your eyes. Now, whenever I hear someone say a statistic, I ignore them and sometimes ask for the actual data.
I've taken two statistics classes. And yes you can mess with sample size, significance level, confidence level, and everything else to skew your results however you want but in the same way you can screw with every other source of relevant information and evidence. It just requires effort and a little to get correct information, just like with everything else
Not at all - in systems with multiple variables it is not possible to extract correct information, and definitely not using statistics. Certain type of statistics, such as for example the hockey stick related to global warming scams, is simply not acceptable in logical discussions and should not be tolerated.
Not that statistics has anything to do with much of anything here.
Quote from: MisterJH on April 02, 2014, 12:22:36 AM
Quote from: Ieatfood7 on April 02, 2014, 12:14:15 AM
...psychological toeture is real. See extreme cases of stalking. See the book 1984 ( he was beaten severely but it was the psychological torture that broke him). It is obvious that "just words" can do extreme harm to anyone if applied correctly.
Saying that such actions should not be legislated is to say that the psychologically strong should be able to hurt the psychologically weak with impunity. You go gather and say that such actions should not be socially unacceptable ( important note!most of the examples in this thread are not illegal...politically incorrect means it us legal but that you face social repercussions for it. In some societies in American being non Christian is socially unacceptable though not illegal. In some being a biblical literalist is socially unacceptable but not illegal. No word is illegal in America. Racism is not illegal (firing someone from their job due to racism is, but vrrbalizing your racism is not illegal). They are just unacceptable. The law only steps in when you cross the line to abuse/assault/threats, and hardly ever then. Google"intentional infliction of emotional distress" and see how very very very hard it is to win on that theory).
A person can have their life forever ruined by emotional and psychological damage, just as much as by physical damage. If a persons body is weak, a light punch could make their body be unable to go on living. If a person's mind/will is weak, a light mental assault could make their mind be unable to go on. (I am not saying you can't ever hurt feelings, just the te principals exist that psychological harm is real and dangerous.)
And you refer to abusive cases that also involve physical harm. If you go from beginning to finish, im mostly referring to the fact that political correctness is becomig close to illegal now, as making a finger gun may be politically incorrect in school, yet a child faced very real repercussions. Of course it evolved into wether someone should be allowed to call some a fat tub of lard, or a fag etc, and what i argue is that its up to the person being targeted to handle such things, as they happen and will always happen. Someone will always be ready to put you down. To be a healthy functioning individual id argue youd have to get bullied at some point, just to understand. And if youre healthy chances are youll brush it off like most, and though i may upset you thats the extent, and hopefully not too bad. My argument is not that constant harassment should be legal, although i do agree that for one to remain in a verbally abusive relationship for example, they are lacking the ability to handle themselves which is partially their fault, or the fault of their improper raising. For the most part its made out to seem as if im actively trying to have people hurt other when really im using those as examples to portray oversensitivity and the trend to shelter children from conflict rather than have them develop a healthy self esteem.
1-what you call wussifovation is actually the civilization of America. I agree, as I said before, that many thing are overeactions (like scolding or worse when a kid makes gun fingers) but this is just another step int he process from the Stone Age to civilization. It was once thought that regular beatings, not spa kings or occasional punishments but straight physical abuse (caning in schools being the gentle version of it) was required for a child to grow up correctly. Prior to that it was held that whoever had the biggest army had the moral right to do whatever they wanted any any other idea was effeminate whining or outright blasphemy. Prior to that literally the strongest guy got to win and everyone else was expected to take it.
Slavery. Child labor laws. Women's equality. Serious workplace hazard laws (not silly safety things but like not having you work in an asbestos mine). Each was seen as wimpy at one point. I know you are saying that of course those are different as they cause physical harm, but at each step the people advocating for barbarism thought that the changes before them were good changes but the issue at hand didn't need any change.
No one (important) wants to make politically incorrect speech illegal or make politically incorrect thoughts illegal. However, your freedoms end when you intentionally and uneasisarily harm another person, whether it be harm physically, economically, psychologically, or in any other way. There is a legal test of reasonableness here...if I tap you on the shoulder and you have sunburn, that's not some thing I would have known or would be punished for. Its a balance of the intents. It's also, especially in speach which is a constitutional right, a balancing test. There is a very high coat to any legal abridgment to free speach, so the courts do not punish for it lightly. Again, Wikipedia "intentional infliction of emotional distress". If the language is bad enough in context (not just a bad word but serious harassment/threats/fraud/directly and purposefully inciting physical violence/etc) then a court may intervene. Please stop propagating myths about the government trying to take away the freedom of speach.
If you are complaining that society disapproves of racist remarks....,,.. You have a right to say whatever you want and I'll defend that right for you if called upon. But I have the right to not do business with someone or be friends with someone or vote for someone who says thing X or espouses opinion Y. As you can criticize my life choices/my mode of existence, I can criticize yours (ie your opinions and your mode of expressing them)
You make some good points, and i guess id fall in the category of someone resisting 'civilization.' But thats there the difference is largely at, as what you call furthered civilization i call coddling children excessively. And at this point in time i dont think its the worst thing ever, but i do see it heading down that road to everyone being forced to get along and not act in any ways that might potentially offend someone. Another example is the government trying to for christian businesses to provide birth control to workers as part of healthcare, more so in the sense of forcing everyone to get along rather than 'wussification.' Similar idea just in a different context. You did do a great job of defining our split in argument, and where exactly we must agree to disagree. I have a splitting headache so im goin to opt out of saying more at this time though, before my brain explodes
Quote from: MisterJH on April 02, 2014, 04:27:42 PM
You make some good points, and i guess id fall in the category of someone resisting 'civilization.' But thats there the difference is largely at, as what you call furthered civilization i call coddling children excessively. And at this point in time i dont think its the worst thing ever, but i do see it heading down that road to everyone being forced to get along and not act in any ways that might potentially offend someone. Another example is the government trying to for christian businesses to provide birth control to workers as part of healthcare, more so in the sense of forcing everyone to get along rather than 'wussification.' Similar idea just in a different context. You did do a great job of defining our split in argument, and where exactly we must agree to disagree. I have a splitting headache so im goin to opt out of saying more at this time though, before my brain explodes
Lol. I know the feeling. And you are absolutely right that the current trend could lead down a bad path and go way too far. For an example of what I think you are worried about, go watch the dystopia comedy Demolition Man. Its hilarious and classic but shows a future where swearing is fined from listening devices in walls and one instance of graffiti is a high crime day for a city.
Mark rosewater said that for almost anyone or anything, your greatest flaw is your greatest strength taken too far. America has a lot of strengths. Take any of them too far and you have big problems (I could enumerate them, but really most dystopian novels show a strength (often security) taken too far). I don't but the "beware the slippery slope" argument simply because it applies to absolutely everything, so we need to always be aware of the risk but never give up on something ONLy because of the risk of where it could lead.
Now I would love to discuss the birth control thing, but PLeASe let's start a new thread if you want to discuss that. I already sent this off topic enough a while back. :)
Absolutely leat, im just pointing out i think were a quarter of the way down a slippery slope and nobodys helping us back up. Were just gonna slide. Of course thats just my view on things, i think that slope has been slipped down. Ive had enough serious talk for a little while, and im kind of losing my fighting spirit because icant move my head or neck at all without getting the most excruciating pain ever. Maybe tomorrow if i can freakin move
Well i dont like it regardless of what its name is.. As long as i lie still its completely fine but i kind of need to pee and eat.. Ugh
Im 18 and dont plan on getting married for at least another 15 years :/ so i guess ill eat a sandwich in 15 years