I was playing in a tourney and my opponent dropped a [chandra's rage] on the field as an "accident" so i left mana open to [faith's sheild] and attacked him for lethal. He stated that i cheated because he accidently dropped the card and i purposley played against it. The judge gave ME the match loss?? Wtf??
I don't believe that should be counted as a loss, its just knowledge, that got put to use. He should have protected his hand better, it's not like you were purposely trying to get a look at his cards.
Yeah thats what i thought and told them what was i supposed to do? Not play [faith's sheild]?
The proper procedure would be to call a judge immediately and have them sort it out from there.
The judge gavd me a match loss for it.
Quote from: Tetsomori on March 14, 2012, 07:44:29 PM
The judge gavd me a match loss for it.
Did you tell the judge immediately when it happened, or did you use the information to your advantage?
Quote from: Tetsomori on March 14, 2012, 07:10:36 PM
Yeah thats what i thought and told them what was i supposed to do? Not play [faith's sheild]?
Close...use the curly brackets not the [ ]. And also i dont think you should of loss because u had knowledge of your oppenents hand through his mistake
Used the info. Do they not teach you to read in Canada? O_o
Quote from: Tetsomori on March 14, 2012, 07:03:25 PM
I was playing in a tourney and my opponent dropped a {chandra's rage} on the field as an "accident" so i left mana open to {faith's sheild}and attacked him for lethal. He stated that i cheated because he accidently dropped the card and i purposley played against it. The judge gave ME the match loss?? Wtf??
The { }
Failure to report a violation, such as Extra Cards Revealed, and using the information for game advantage is looked at as cheating.
Edit: I'm looking into this now. It may fall under Hidden Information Violation.
Quote from: BlackJester on March 14, 2012, 09:12:46 PM
Failure to report a violation, such as Extra Cards Revealed, and using the information for game advantage is looked at as cheating.
I seriously disagree about this...If the oppenent is careless about his cards then it should be your right to use it to your advantage
Exerpt from the REL Judge guide:
"Players are considered to have looked at a card when they have been able to observe the face of a hidden card, or when a card is moved any significant amount from a deck, but before it touches the other cards in their hand. This includes errors of dexterity or catching a play error before the card is placed into his or her hand. Once a card has been placed into his or her hand or if a player takes a game action after removing the card from the library, the offense is no longer Looking at Extra Cards."
REL 6 - Cheating - Fraud
"A person intentionally and knowingly violates or misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information. Note that Fraud, like most cheating, is determined by an investigation and will often appear on the surface as a Game Play Error or Tournament Error.
Additionally, it is Fraud if a player (or teammate) notices an offense in their match and does not immediately call attention to it."
Had you reported the fault to a judge immediately, your opponent would have been given a warning, and may have had to shuffle the card back into their library (not sure about the last part). Not reporting it put you at fault. You are lucky not to have been given a Disqualification.
Quote from: NillaWafers on March 14, 2012, 08:52:30 PM
Used the info. Do they not teach you to read in Canada? O_o
Oi! What'chu talkin' 'bout Canada? >:(
I'm with jester on this one. Even though it's to your advantage, you'll be better off just getting a judge over and they'll sort everything out.
Alright so ill go to a tournament drop a card on "accident" and if my oppenent doesnt call it and plays off it ill get a free win. Metaphorically of course. Thats why i completely disagree with being punished cause of your oppenent's carelessness if it wasnt done on puprose in the first place.
Nah, first of all I know accidents happen but if youre doing it twice a day, people are going to talk. I drop cards occasionally, but they have never landed in an opponents view and were always before the game started.
Hell i do too and if i drop something and they play off that ill give myself a kick in the ass for being careless
Okay, to resolve this discussion, I have submitted the situation to the DCI judge mailing list and get an Official stance on the topic. Seeing a card from their library is apparently different from seeing a card in hand.
Well i didnt know about calling a judge right away he picked the card up and just put it back in his hand. I informed him i saw it.. He said dont worry about it. Bad thing is he disagreed with the judge giving me a match loss for it. He just asked if we could back the game up and he would shuffle the card and draw another. I didnt really agree to that but the judge said i cheated. So i was given a match loss
What level of tournament was this? FNM?
Yea... Well not fnm but sanctioned monday tourney
Okay, so I just got a response from a high level judge (the rep for Canada, FYI) and neither action was an infraction. It is not an infraction to reveal part or all of your hand, nor is it an infraction to take advantage if it happens.
"Just yesterday, I illustrated this in two distinct examples.
First, I was shuffling my opponent's deck when I dropped one of his cards on the floor; I asked him to look and see if it was face up or down, so I'd know if I could look down to pick it up. If I had just looked and seen a face up card, I'd have been guilty of the Looking at Extra Cards infraction - not a big deal, but it seemed wise to avoid it.
Next, I decided to Dismember my opponent's Inkmoth Nexus, showed him the card ... before I realized that I forgot to leave one mana open. He played around that card in my hand the rest of that game (quite legal). :p"
Now, of course this only applies to reveals, accidental or intentional, of cards in hand. The Library and other hidden zones are different, and you obviously can't try to "sneak a {peak}" at their hand.
So there you go, Tetsomori, you are exonerated. 8)
3 cheers for bj! Hip hip hooray!! Alright nvm 1 cheer. Tired of typing :)
So taking advantage of knowledge through your oppenents mistake is legal. Good.
Quote from: BadLuckIrish on March 18, 2012, 07:49:26 PM
So taking advantage of knowledge through your oppenents mistake is legal. Good.
It depends on the mistake. If they drop a card from their library, it's not.
If they drop a card from their hand, then they'll need to learn not to for next time. Also, you don't want to punish a player if their opponent flashes their hand.
Quote from: BlackJester on March 18, 2012, 09:46:54 PM
Quote from: BadLuckIrish on March 18, 2012, 07:49:26 PM
So taking advantage of knowledge through your oppenents mistake is legal. Good.
It depends on the mistake. If they drop a card from their library, it's not.
If they drop a card from their hand, then they'll need to learn not to for next time. Also, you don't want to punish a player if their opponent flashes their hand.
Ooooh Jester if you played with my group and u somehow managed to drop a card they will take that advantage and do everything they can to play around it
Quote from: BadLuckIrish on March 18, 2012, 09:49:12 PM
Quote from: BlackJester on March 18, 2012, 09:46:54 PM
Quote from: BadLuckIrish on March 18, 2012, 07:49:26 PM
So taking advantage of knowledge through your oppenents mistake is legal. Good.
It depends on the mistake. If they drop a card from their library, it's not.
If they drop a card from their hand, then they'll need to learn not to for next time. Also, you don't want to punish a player if their opponent flashes their hand.
Ooooh Jester if you played with my group and u somehow managed to drop a card they will take that advantage and do everything they can to play around it
LOL Well if your group is playing by official REL tournament rules, then they'd be issued a warning. Kinda doubt you do, though. :D
Quote from: Tetsomori on March 18, 2012, 07:15:25 PM
3 cheers for bj! Hip hip hooray!! Alright nvm 1 cheer. Tired of typing :)
Im sorry, very interesting thread but... "Bj"? xD im so sorry but i couldnt stop myself from laughing alittle! :P
(Due to the maturity of content i will not disclose what i was refering to in this forum)
Quote from: Fenster on March 21, 2012, 03:06:39 PM
Quote from: Tetsomori on March 18, 2012, 07:15:25 PM
3 cheers for bj! Hip hip hooray!! Alright nvm 1 cheer. Tired of typing :)
Im sorry, very interesting thread but... "Bj"? xD im so sorry but i couldnt stop myself from laughing alittle! :P
(Due to the maturity of content i will not disclose what i was refering to in this forum)
Trust me, it's not the first time, won't be the last.
Bj?? You don't mean Bobby Johnson do ya?
BlackJester. The Demi-god of this realm along with Spikepit. Witg Piotr being god.
No... I think you mean Bobby!