Lots of controversy going on with the recent thread. It is quite an active one too. So I am going to do what any chaotic loving person would do, and add more controversy to the mix.
Abortion. Something about that word sets people on edge. So I thought it would be best to have a whole thread on it. So everyone have fun! Don't neg people for expressing their opinion please! :)
I'm against Abortion. Extreme cases aside the popular crowd that gets abortions have been the teenage girls that acted on hormones and didnt use common sense. Even if the mother is unable to care for the child that's no excuse because a lot of couples out there are looking for a child to adopt.
Against. Abortion us, legally manslaughter in a way-- the killing of another human. Should Manu doctors then be arrested?
Imo it's not anyone else's right to choose other than the mother's. Nobody has any right to tell her that she must keep her baby, regardless of what religion you believe is correct.
As for the "you're killing a baby" thing, here goes.
"Is this acorn a tree?"
"No"
"Is this egg a chicken?"
"No"
"Is this fetus a human?"
"No, it's a fetus"
Until birth, the fetus is a fetus, nothing more.
I'm pro choice.
Quote from: Slenderbro on July 18, 2013, 12:45:55 AM
Imo it's not anyone else's right to choose other than the mother's. Nobody has any right to tell her that she must keep her baby, regardless of what religion you believe is correct.
As for the "you're killing a baby" thing, here goes.
"Is this acorn a tree?"
"No"
"Is this egg a chicken?"
"No"
"Is this fetus a human?"
"No, it's a fetus"
Until birth, the fetus is a fetus, nothing more.
I'm pro choice.
See that's where your comparing human life to the birds and beasts on earth. With that terminology if I were to kill a man over a woman I could just say heck deer do it all the time!
Abortion... This subject is a fun one due to my friends at school who are pro abortion... I am not.
If you are a teenage girl who got pregnant, whose fault is it that you are pregnant??? It can't be the churches because they are not giving you contraceptives (catholic church contraceptive bullshit that was enforced a few years ago), it isn't your parents fault. It is, let me think... OH! Your fault! You didn't set precautionary measures for sex, it is your fault for not spending the money for quality contraceptives early, it is your fault for wanting unprotected sex. So who would have thought you would have a baby when you didn't set those measures. Did you think that you were to young to be affected (oh underaged sex will be another topic) then that is just so retarded.
If you are raped, sucks that there isn't anything you can turn to except for murdering this unborn child. You know, nothing! Except for the US adoption agency, Foster homes, Family that you can turn to, acually trying to raise the child. But except for that, no options whatsoever.
Quote from: ELLERfeller on July 18, 2013, 12:53:37 AM
Quote from: Slenderbro on July 18, 2013, 12:45:55 AM
Imo it's not anyone else's right to choose other than the mother's. Nobody has any right to tell her that she must keep her baby, regardless of what religion you believe is correct.
As for the "you're killing a baby" thing, here goes.
"Is this acorn a tree?"
"No"
"Is this egg a chicken?"
"No"
"Is this fetus a human?"
"No, it's a fetus"
Until birth, the fetus is a fetus, nothing more.
I'm pro choice.
See that's where your comparing human life to the birds and beasts on earth. With that terminology if I were to kill a man over a woman I could just say heck deer do it all the time!
You do realize humans are by definition animals yes?
So by that logic yes to your scenario, as almost same in any other species. It is the social discouragement that makes it not a good thing.
And the large repercussions in many countries...
It's standards that set is apart from other creatures on this earth we were created with higher thinking to know what is wrong and what is right. And a killing child is wrong any way you look at it. A fetus by definition is a still-developing human child. An acorn is a seed but if the stub of a tree was showing from the ground you'd say it was alive. An egg is a chamber for incubation. Within it a chick is forming.
Really i believe that if you had sex and knew that there was a possibility of having a child from it, go buy the god damn morning after pills.
If you cant afford it, dont be dumb and have sex yeah?
I agree, 3rd trimester abortions tend to be a walk on the moral tightrope, but i still think it should be the future mother's choice.
Quote from: CbStrad on July 18, 2013, 01:09:34 AM
Quote from: Slenderbro on July 18, 2013, 01:01:17 AM
Quote from: ELLERfeller on July 18, 2013, 12:53:37 AM
Quote from: Slenderbro on July 18, 2013, 12:45:55 AM
Imo it's not anyone else's right to choose other than the mother's. Nobody has any right to tell her that she must keep her baby, regardless of what religion you believe is correct.
As for the "you're killing a baby" thing, here goes.
"Is this acorn a tree?"
"No"
"Is this egg a chicken?"
"No"
"Is this fetus a human?"
"No, it's a fetus"
Until birth, the fetus is a fetus, nothing more.
I'm pro choice.
See that's where your comparing human life to the birds and beasts on earth. With that terminology if I were to kill a man over a woman I could just say heck deer do it all the time!
You do realize humans are by definition animals yes?
So by that logic yes to your scenario, as almost same in any other species. It is the social discouragement that makes it not a good thing.
Biologically, humans are animals, as are most everything else.
However, lumping humans - thinking, learning, ever advancing, logical creatures - together with every other animal - which act solely upon instinct - is something I have always seen as a bit of a stretch.
Just some food for thought
I agree. There's just too much of a gap between humans and all other creatures to just have one solid category for us all.
Animalia? That's kinda the actual grouping that we're all in.
Have we developed a higher intelligence than most other animal on the planet? Yes
But we are all still animals and should be considered as such
"Humans have a knack for choosing precisely the things that are worst for them."
-Albus Dumbledore
But you see that's the broadest category possible. There are thousands of sub-category's and sub-category's for those all pointing that we should not be lumped together with your run of the mill creatures. We have been given so much more to work with to squander it by saying hey I'm just like that turtle so I should leave my child on the beach till it finds it's way to the sea. No we don't abandon our young and we don't kill them in the womb. What animal does that?
Quote from: Mlerner12 on July 18, 2013, 01:15:55 AM
"Humans have a knack for choosing precisely the things that are worst for them."
-Albus Dumbledore
Who knew, you really can bring Harry Potter into everything. :)
Quote from: ELLERfeller on July 18, 2013, 01:17:20 AM
But you see that's the broadest category possible. There are thousands of sub-category's and sub-category's for those all pointing that we should not be lumped together with your run of the mill creatures. We have been given so much more to work with to squander it by saying hey I'm just like that turtle so I should leave my child on the beach till it finds it's way to the sea. No we don't abandon our young and we don't kill them in the womb. What animal does that?
Some verities of the pigeon do such as the modena or king.
They will stomp on developing fetus' in order to protect a nest. Yes i know it's dumb but i used to raise them.
Trust me you will never win this argument.
If I saw it as an argument I wouldn't be posted private beliefs on a card game forum I'm discussing not attacking or arguing or even debating I could never change someone's mind via the Internet. But that still means that we both see opposite sides of many things it seems.
I'm pro choice. Just like with gay marriage I don't think that other people should be able to dictate and regulate what people do to their bodies. It should be the choice of the person or persons involved and not of someone whom doesn't know that person to decide. There are many circumstances where an abortion would be necessary or justified.
My issue is serial abortion and I think that's where the real issue is. There are girls that use abortion as a means of birth control or a fall back plan in case something happens. I knew a girl that had 4 abortions when she was a teenager. This is where I see the problem.
So I don't have a problem with abortion, I have a problem with abortion being used inappropriately and in excessive amounts.
So wouldn't making abortion legal be like giving these girls free reign to terminate pregnancies? If it's a medical issue and it will potentially kill the mother it ceases to be abortion but a serious medical issue which is something totally different!
After reading all these it seems the opinions are on both sides a lot more than the same sex marriage. My personal opinion is that a woman should be able to choose what she does with her child. I don't think abortions are the best thing to do but here is my counter. Say a 14 year old girl gets pregnant. Do you really think that a 15 year old should be raising a baby? Yes she shouldn't have had unprotected sex. Yes she is an absolute idiot for letting this happen, but do you really feel that she is a person that should be raising a child. Even if the parents are willing to help, I doubt they wanted another child. As far as foster homes go, not all of them are that great, I know several friends who would still like to know who their real parents are. This leaves adoption as the only other choice. And yes, many people out there do want to adopt for several reasons such as cant have their own, etc... But I doubt that there are enough people wanting to adopt as there are abortions every year. And as for rape, that is a totally different argument entirely, I see no reason why a woman who was raped and wants to have an abortion should not be able to get one. But as the person above me said, serial abortion is a problem. That is something that needs to be stopped, a girl shouldn't just be able to keep getting abortions, that is when I would call that "murder". That is just what I believe.
Anoobass
95% against it, the other 5% is the baby wont make it, and it is kore human to kill it before it is born so to say, it seems unlikely but it has happened.
NSFW noted. Rant mode engaged ;)
Animal discussion: Some dogs eat .poo.. Does that mean I should eat .poo. because we're both animals? No. That thing in my skull is more developed for a reason. Just because animals act on instinct doesn't mean we have to. Comparing humans to birds is like comparing a Bugatti to a bicycle. Essentially, yes, a Bugatti and a bike will get you where you need to go, which is their essential purpose. However, there are about 5481948.4 other components to consider. We are technically animals that can follow pure instincts, but again, there is a nearly infinite amount of other factors making us more advanced than that.
Abortion: That's .loved. up. Seriously. Should mentally challenged people just be killed off just because they're not fully developed? How about people born with some kind of skin/limb/etc deformity? No. That's murder. So why is it ok to just brush off murdering an unborn child? They're not fully developed? They're not aware of anything? In my eyes, getting an abortion would be equivalent to walking up to someone you don't like and putting a bullet in their head. You don't want to be bothered by the person you dislike just like you don't want to be bothered by a child.
Teenagers that get an abortion because it was an "oops" baby are pathetic. If you didn't want to potentially get pregnant, maybe you shouldn't have spread your legs in the first place, no? Even if you're some super hormonal couple that can't keep your pants up, there are these strange things called condoms that aid in deterring pregnancy. Fascinating, isn't it? I live in a tiny town and our gas station even carries them, so "no access" is a pretty dumpy excuse. If you wind up getting pregnant when you don't want to, tough, there shouldn't be an easy way out on that. That's someone's life you're ending, not just some reset button that'll let you say "Oops" and giggle it away. Rape is the only thing that slightly makes my opinion sway, but even then, adoption agencies still are a thing.
Quote from: CbStrad on July 18, 2013, 01:05:37 AM
Yeah, I'm generally against, with few exceptions - and here we get to hear a cold, logical Cb - such as preserving the mother's life. What I mean is, if an abortion saves the mother from a likely lethal pregnancy, a part of me sees reason for choice; it allows her to live and try again. However, as for the other anti-posts, I agree. There are precautionary measures and viable recourses in every instance listed
This is the only case that I know of when abortion would be legal under iMtG law. The logic is this: unborn child is threatening mother's life, logical punishment for that is capital punishment. Self defense case.
Quote from: Slenderbro on July 18, 2013, 01:06:25 AM
I agree, 3rd trimester abortions tend to be a walk on the moral tightrope, but i still think it should be the future mother's choice.
What about the father's choice?
Quote from: Anoobass on July 18, 2013, 02:20:18 AMa 14 year old girl gets pregnant. Do you really think that a 15 year old should be raising a baby?
Do you have the slightest idea how long the queue for adoption is?
Quote from: Piotr on July 18, 2013, 04:46:40 AM
Quote from: Slenderbro on July 18, 2013, 01:06:25 AM
I agree, 3rd trimester abortions tend to be a walk on the moral tightrope, but i still think it should be the future mother's choice.
What about the father's choice?
This sir I completely agree with
Quote from: NightWolf on July 18, 2013, 06:49:48 AM
Quote from: Piotr on July 18, 2013, 04:46:40 AM
Quote from: Slenderbro on July 18, 2013, 01:06:25 AM
I agree, 3rd trimester abortions tend to be a walk on the moral tightrope, but i still think it should be the future mother's choice.
What about the father's choice?
This sir I completely agree with
This was just a question, to point out logical fallacy of his reasoning. I believe that the last word on the matter belongs to the unborn child, and I assume it wants to live in all cases, therefore abortion is illegal*.
* I live by iMtG law.
I really don't have a stance on this subject but I do believe in most cases the father should have say as well.
The question of abortion is not in whether or not the mother has the right to choose. The question of abortion is whether or not a fetus is a human. If it is not a human, then of course the mother, who is forced to grow fat and endure pain because of this thing, should be able to choose to get rid of it. On the other hand, if a fetus is a human, then there is absolutely no one who can claim that it is the mother's right to choose to get rid of it. That's because it would be like a mother drowning her infant because the infant was ruining her good mood with his crying. That being said, let's see what seperates a fetus from a grown man or woman. And you can the decision as to whether or not these differences are enough to claim that a fetus is not human, and therefore can be disposed of as garbage. As it turns out, there are four things that seperate a fetus from you and me.
1: size. A fetus is much smaller than even a toddler. You could a fetus in the palm of your hand. So, does this difference make it less human than you? Are you more of a human than your friend who is shorter than you, or is your father more human than you because he is larger than you? Is a fetus less of a human than a toddler because it is smaller? Maybe.
2: level of development. A fetus is less developed than a born baby, a toddler, and you and me. A fetus cannot even talk yet. A fetus cannot walk either. Maybe that makes it less human. Is an 18-year old leas human than a fully developed man? Are you more human than your younger sibling? The brain does not finish developing until the thirties. If level of development is something that stops a fetus from being human, these are questions that should be answered.
3: level of dependance. A fetus is pretty much the definition of dependant. A fetus needs to be attatched to the mother for now, or it will obviously die. This looks like a deciding factor, making a fetus not a human. But let's make sure. That one guy in the hospital who can't breath or eat or walk without assistance. Now let's get somethig straight here: we are talking about whether or not this man is human. Not whether or not he should live. That's another debate entirely. So anyways, getting back. This guy. He will never walk. He will never feed himself. He will never breath by himself. Oh, and of course he can't talk. Is he less human are? What about you? What if you live with your parents. They feed you. They buy your singles. Without them you would perish. Maybe you are not as human as you thought.
4: location. Location location location. A fetus is trapped inside of a womb. Well for now, anyways. A fetus cannot really change that fact either. Perhaps the fact that it is in the location of a womb makes it less human, and therefore disposable. Maybe that is it. Let's see, how about a trick question? Ok great. So there are two twenty-somethings. Both dirt poor. One is in Africa and one is in Russia. Neither can change their location, because they lack the means. Which is more human than the other? Ah, I warned you. It's a trick question. They are both human. Okay here's another question. Not a trick question. Mr. Bob lives in China, but Mr. Bob is rich and can go where he pleases. However, Mr. Fetus is not so fortunate. He is trapped in a dark and confined place, nof yet able to go where he pleases. Based on location, which one is more human? Decide.
So, are any of those reasons strong enough to support the claim that a fetus is not human, but somethig else entirely? Something that should be killed if it becomes an inconvenience?
What is the unborn? According to logic, human. What do you think? This post is not meant to feed the fire for anti-abortionists, making them feel all good inside. This post isn't meant to anger people that think abortion is OK either. This post presents the facts to you, the jury. The judge. The exocutioner.
Level of development... You are implying that just because is not developed it isn't human. As soon as that fetus begins to form it is human. Period. A baby isn't developed are you saying they aren't human?
Level of dependance. Yes you are human if you heavily depend on someone. Just because you have disabilities doesn't mean you aren't human. Saying that is practically inhumane.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 18, 2013, 09:19:27 AMThe question of abortion is whether or not a fetus is a human.
Indeed, and as you have shown, this is not really a question which can be answered in a way acceptable by the 'pro choice' folks. I have never seen a single logical argument proving that fetus is not human (other than using arbitrary black and white logic which simply defines fetus as non human, to avoid the problem).
Exactly.
I am entirely in favor of maintaining and even reinforcing/strengthening of a woman's right to have an abortion (ie: a national-level definition of when abortions are legal, and preventing the recent absurdities recently passed in some states to restrict access to abortions). The logic asserted in Roe v. Wade falls in line with my personal take on the issue from a legality standpoint, that it is a matter of privacy that should be left to the discretion of the individual woman. A bunch of old conservative hags constantly trying to kill access to abortion at the state level do not have any reason to be interested in the reproductive decisions of any woman, period. The decision to end a pregnancy via abortion is solely the decision of the woman involved, she is the one who has to go through the pregnancy and most likely the raising of the child, presuming the single-mother situation that many people stereotype the typical abortion-seeker to be.
I am not going to try and argue about the moral views on abortion, when "life" begins or any of that. Each of us is entitled to their own opinion on when life begins, and when a fetus is considered to be a person. Ironically, if you respect that assertion, one of the definitive pillars of the American System (ie: individual liberty, not being forced to look through the moral compass/lens of another person/religion/belief system), then the argument over abortion doesn't seem like it should be much of an argument at all. No one is forcing you specifically to have an abortion (oh the irony in a discussion involving 99.99% males). Individuals who feel that it is morally wrong are completely entitled to not have an abortion, and more power to them. However, I strongly reject the notion that a country founded upon individual liberty and filled with people who praise individual liberty should restrict he reproductive decisions of any woman, whatever their personal moral stance on the issue may be.
Just my $.02 on the topic.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 18, 2013, 12:28:54 PMEach of us is entitled to their own opinion on when life begins, and when a fetus is considered to be a person.
Does that mean you are perfectly ok if we declare you not a person and based on that opinion abort you?
I'm pro choice and a lot of my friends are too. of course this also depends on how you were raised and what morals this woman agrees with. There's also other options besides an abortion like adopting but if the woman doesn't want to have the baby in the first place. One of my close friends got pregnant she was 15 and she got an abortion because she wouldn't have Gotten enough support from her family. So the choice not only depends on the woman or the girl there's other factors that are involved. And that is why I'm pro choice it's the woman's choice and its hers alone.
Quote from: Piotr on July 18, 2013, 01:01:51 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 18, 2013, 12:28:54 PMEach of us is entitled to their own opinion on when life begins, and when a fetus is considered to be a person.
Does that mean you are perfectly ok if we declare you not a person and based on that opinion abort you?
If I'm an unborn fetus and my mother does not want to have a child, absolutely.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 18, 2013, 01:15:39 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 18, 2013, 01:01:51 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 18, 2013, 12:28:54 PMEach of us is entitled to their own opinion on when life begins, and when a fetus is considered to be a person.
Does that mean you are perfectly ok if we declare you not a person and based on that opinion abort you?
If I'm an unborn fetus and my mother does not want to have a child, absolutely.
What makes you think that fetus is not human?
Quote from: Imink on July 18, 2013, 01:07:53 PM
I'm pro choice and a lot of my friends are too. of course this also depends on how you were raised and what morals this woman agrees with. There's also other options besides an abortion like adopting but if the woman doesn't want to have the baby in the first place. One of my close friends got pregnant she was 15 and she got an abortion because she wouldn't have Gotten enough support from her family. So the choice not only depends on the woman or the girl there's other factors that are involved. And that is why I'm pro choice it's the woman's choice and its hers alone.
I find it repulsive when people say that killing other humans is a question of choice. I believe that killing can only be done as punishment in murder case or in self defense.
Against although I do think the population needs to drop. At the current rate food prices will outscale the population in 50 years.
Quote from: Piotr on July 18, 2013, 01:22:07 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 18, 2013, 01:15:39 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 18, 2013, 01:01:51 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 18, 2013, 12:28:54 PMEach of us is entitled to their own opinion on when life begins, and when a fetus is considered to be a person.
Does that mean you are perfectly ok if we declare you not a person and based on that opinion abort you?
If I'm an unborn fetus and my mother does not want to have a child, absolutely.
What makes you think that fetus is not human?
It is a developing group of cells in an incubator. I will concede that a fetus in the third trimester of a pregnancy could be considered to be human-like, but I only consider a fetus that is surviving outside and unattached to the mother (ie: not dependent on the umbilical cord) to be human, which would only occur after birth (and making it no longer a fetus).
Quote from: FlickerYourOwnIdentity on July 18, 2013, 11:00:07 AM
Level of development... You are implying that just because is not developed it isn't human. As soon as that fetus begins to form it is human. Period. A baby isn't developed are you saying they aren't human?
Level of dependance. Yes you are human if you heavily depend on someone. Just because you have disabilities doesn't mean you aren't human. Saying that is practically inhumane.
Biology says no to you good sir.
Until the fetus is removed from the womb it is by definition not a human being.
*reinsert egg/acorn story*
It's a hard debate to get into because I can't see how any person morally could take the chance that aborting a fetus is not murdering a human and have no conscience about it.
A fetus is a developing human. It has human DNA.
Oh no! It doesn't breathe air on its own yet! When you're born you can't talk or walk, yet you have legs and vocal chords. Just not fully developed.
I can sum up how I feel about abortion and how people can legally kill innocent developing humans.
Sick.
Quote from: Piotr on July 18, 2013, 01:01:51 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 18, 2013, 12:28:54 PMEach of us is entitled to their own opinion on when life begins, and when a fetus is considered to be a person.
Does that mean you are perfectly ok if we declare you not a person and based on that opinion abort you?
One word: Bahahahahaha!!
Quote from: Taysby on July 18, 2013, 04:38:13 PM
I believe that if the mother was raped, (...), then go ahead with the abortion.
The unborn human is not guilty of the rape, therefore we cannot punish him with death.
Rape is a very serious crime and if you would argue that the logical punishment for it would be removal of the violator's genitals, I wouldn't have a problem with that. The issue is that it is a crime normally quite hard to prove.
Quote from: Taysby on July 19, 2013, 12:07:05 AM
@slenderbro. S if I abort a fetus 2 seconds before it comes out, it's not murder because its not human, and If I kill a baby 2 seconds after it comes out, it's murder because its outside? Definitions aren't always the best thing to go by because they can misleading. The technical term is a fetus, and fetuses live just like baby's.
A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.
Definitions aren't always the best to go by because guess what? There is no clear definition of when a fetus becomes a person with consciousness and self-awareness (you know, the things that define a human), it is entirely subjective, which is why this issue is so divisive and unmoving.
Quote from: Taysby on July 19, 2013, 11:28:44 AM
@piotor. Abortion isn't the punishment, the mother had absolutely no choice in the fact she was going to get pregnant, so to make her keep the baby would be PUNISHING her, for another's choices, which I believe is against img law (i might be wrong, so don't yell at me if I am) and should be against everyone's laws and morals.
For the unborn human the abortion is capital punishment. The mother was a victim of the crime and having to have the baby of the violator is one of the effects of that crime, it is not additional crime or punishment.
It is against iMtG law to kill unborn babies regardless of the way they were created. The only exception is self defense when the life of mother is threatened.
Quote from: Taysby on July 19, 2013, 11:28:44 AM
@piotor. Abortion isn't the punishment, the mother had absolutely no choice in the fact she was going to get pregnant, so to make her keep the baby would be PUNISHING her, for another's choices, which I believe is against img law (i might be wrong, so don't yell at me if I am) and should be against everyone's laws and morals.
The problem with the rape scenario, which is an argument that pro-abortionists use often, is that it does not address whether or not the fetus is human or not. Here is why this is relevant: if the fetus is not a human, of course the rape scenario would be a valid argument. Why should a woman have to go through so much suffering just because she was already the victim of even more suffering? Suffering as a punishment for beig raped...not logical. However, ask yourself this. Just in your head: if the fetus is definitely a human, would it be logical to kill this human because it causes the mother suffering? Also, would it be constitutional, considering all humans are created equal? You see, if the fetus is a human, then killing it because it causes a woman pain would be no different than a mother killing a toddler, teenager, or adult because they caused her pain in some way.
So the question is not: "does the mother have the right to choose?" Of course she does. But obviously no one in America has the right to choose to kill a human being. This means that the question is:
"What is the unborn?"
It is extremely simple: if the fetus is human, it has the right to live; if the fetus is not human, it does not have the right to live.
Can you prove a fetus not to be human? I would appreciate it if someone would prove either of my two posts to be wrong.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 07:51:20 AM
A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.
A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 02:56:56 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 07:51:20 AM
A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.
A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.
A baby does not require the mother's assistance after birth, it can be fed and nurtured by any individual, whereas the fetus must depend on the mother for nutrients.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 19, 2013, 02:53:52 PM
Can you prove a fetus not to be human? I would appreciate it if someone would prove either of my two posts to be wrong.
What makes a being(ie: a fetus) human? Does it have to have conscious thought and self-awareness? If it does then you can't assert that a fetus is human through the entire pregnancy.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 04:34:49 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 02:56:56 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 07:51:20 AM
A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.
A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.
A baby does not require the mother's assistance after birth, it can be fed and nurtured by any individual, whereas the fetus must depend on the mother for nutrients.
Are you trying to insult me by ignoring my comment about third party, or are you simply unable to understand what I said?
Maybe he just disagrees but doesn't want to say it.
Quote from: Mlerner12 on July 19, 2013, 05:38:25 PM
Maybe he just disagrees but doesn't want to say it.
Disagrees with the fact that foetus can survive with third party support?
I don't see why, but maybe.
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 05:35:53 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 04:34:49 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 02:56:56 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 07:51:20 AM
A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.
A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.
A baby does not require the mother's assistance after birth, it can be fed and nurtured by any individual, whereas the fetus must depend on the mother for nutrients.
Are you trying to insult me by ignoring my comment about third party, or are you simply unable to understand what I said?
Neither, but claiming that unborn babies (fetus) can unequivocally survive outside of the mother seems a bit of a stretch, but I am not an expert on the viability of a fetus outside of the womb (particularly a fetus from early on in the pregnancy).
I believe he means a newborn.
You say only humans have a right to live. This would get rid of all our meat to eat, but also many jobs (farmers) and bugs would stop pollinating, cutting off food, materials, and even oxygen.
What would the fate of all of the unwanted babies be if abortion were illegal? Most would be either: orphaned or born to parents who resent them and are treated poorly (abused).
As a woman, I do not believe that the father should have a choice. It's unfair that nature intended for only woman to become pregnant, but that's the way it is. Carrying a baby that you do not want can cause extreme emotional damage.
I have a child, so obviously abortion is not the path that I chose for myself, but I am fully pro-choice. I do not believe that anyone has a right to tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 07:19:27 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 05:35:53 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 04:34:49 PM
Quote from: Piotr on July 19, 2013, 02:56:56 PM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on July 19, 2013, 07:51:20 AM
A baby does not live inside of and depend 100% on the health of the mother, but yeah, otherwise it is exactly the same as a fetus.
A baby born and left without mothers help will die within 24 hours, it is as dependant on her after birth as it was before birth. If you want to talk about third party support after birth, it is now legal in the US to murder unborn humans which can survive without mother with third party support.
A baby does not require the mother's assistance after birth, it can be fed and nurtured by any individual, whereas the fetus must depend on the mother for nutrients.
Are you trying to insult me by ignoring my comment about third party, or are you simply unable to understand what I said?
Neither, but claiming that unborn babies (fetus) can unequivocally survive outside of the mother seems a bit of a stretch, but I am not an expert on the viability of a fetus outside of the womb (particularly a fetus from early on in the pregnancy).
Do not take part in discussions where your knowledge of the subject is low, or you run into a risk of saying stupid things. I for one think much less of you than before you opened your mouth here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability
Every year the survivability of unborn humans removed from mother with third party help increases. Does that mean that killing 25 week old human is murder now, but wasn't murder 20 years ago? No. It was murder 20 years ago as well. 20 years from now the survivability of 18 week old humans will be over 50%, does that mean they are not humans now but will be then? No, unborn human is a human regardless of their age. 100 years from now the survivability of 1 day old human will be 99.9%.
Quote from: Moneekahh on July 20, 2013, 01:38:47 AM
What would the fate of all of the unwanted babies be if abortion were illegal? Most would be either: orphaned or born to parents who resent them and are treated poorly (abused).
As a woman, I do not believe that the father should have a choice. It's unfair that nature intended for only woman to become pregnant, but that's the way it is. Carrying a baby that you do not want can cause extreme emotional damage.
I have a child, so obviously abortion is not the path that I chose for myself, but I am fully pro-choice. I do not believe that anyone has a right to tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.
Unborn baby is not part of your body by any stretch of logic. It is unborn baby's body, not yours, it just happens to be inside you. Is a chicken you ate part of your body?
Quote from: Piotr on July 20, 2013, 04:21:05 AM
Quote from: Moneekahh on July 20, 2013, 01:38:47 AM
What would the fate of all of the unwanted babies be if abortion were illegal? Most would be either: orphaned or born to parents who resent them and are treated poorly (abused).
As a woman, I do not believe that the father should have a choice. It's unfair that nature intended for only woman to become pregnant, but that's the way it is. Carrying a baby that you do not want can cause extreme emotional damage.
I have a child, so obviously abortion is not the path that I chose for myself, but I am fully pro-choice. I do not believe that anyone has a right to tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.
Unborn baby is not part of your body by any stretch of logic. It is unborn baby body, not yours, it just happens to be inside you. Is a chicken you ate part of your body?
An unborn child (fetus, whatever you'd like to call it) is solely dependent on the woman in whose uterus it resides. My child was part of my body until he would have been able to live outside of the womb without medical assistance. Until that point, they are not their own person. The law does not recognize abortion as murder, why is that?
And you can't really compare a meal you ate to a fetus.
Quote from: Moneekahh on July 20, 2013, 04:45:29 AM
An unborn child (fetus, whatever you'd like to call it) is solely dependent on the woman in whose uterus it resides.
This is a lie. http://preemies.about.com/od/readersstories/a/World-S-Smallest-Preemies.htm
Quote from: Moneekahh on July 20, 2013, 04:45:29 AM
My child was part of my body until he would have been able to live outside of the womb without medical assistance. Until that point, they are not their own person.
Your child was never part of your body, it was connected to your body. The chicken you have eaten is not part of your body, it is in your body.
The idea that you are not human if you require medical assistance to survive is, frankly speaking, dumb. I'm not gonna comment it beyond that.
Quote from: Moneekahh on July 20, 2013, 04:45:29 AM
The law does not recognize abortion as murder, why is that?
Because the US law is evil.
Quote from: Moneekahh on July 20, 2013, 04:45:29 AM
And you can't really compare a meal you ate to a fetus.
I'm using your logic. You compared unborn human to something you can expel from your body, like unwanted chicken. The chicken is in your body because you opened your mouth and swallowed it, the unborn human is in your body because you opened your legs and accepted the semen. You let go an egg, it stopped being part of your body at the moment when it left your ovaria, now it is just in your body. After that the semen merged with the egg and the new human was born. At this point you are not even connected to it, it is merely inside your body like an eaten chicken. After that it attached to the inside of your body, and you grew a cord which connected you to it. It didn't become part of your body just because you become connected.
I'm pro choice. Arguments can be made for either side of this topic as we've seen. But IMO the simple truth is there's too much neglect out there already. I hate seeing a child beaten to death or discarded on the news simply bc they couldn't handle being a parent. I believe whole heartedly that if a person believes they are not ready to be a parent then they shouldn't be. Yes, sometimes people step up to the plate and do what needs to be done and raise their child with love and care. But in a lot of instances people can't handle it and their child suffers for it.
Raising my daughter is the hardest and most wonderful thing I've ever done and wouldn't give it up for anything. Just thought I'd throw this in here
Xaol, we are not anti abortion, we are anti murder. Religion has nothing to do with being anti murder. Fetus is not a part of woman's body by any stretch of logic. It is unborn human.
You enter discussion where logical arguments were provided proving that fetus is not part of woman's body. You did not address these arguments, you simply provided your opinion completely ignoring what was said before. I don't like that at all, -1.
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on July 20, 2013, 10:01:27 AM
I'm pro choice. Arguments can be made for either side of this topic as we've seen. But IMO the simple truth is there's too much neglect out there already. I hate seeing a child beaten to death or discarded on the news simply bc they couldn't handle being a parent. I believe whole heartedly that if a person believes they are not ready to be a parent then they shouldn't be. Yes, sometimes people step up to the plate and do what needs to be done and raise their child with love and care. But in a lot of instances people can't handle it and their child suffers for it.
Raising my daughter is the hardest and most wonderful thing I've ever done and wouldn't give it up for anything. Just thought I'd throw this in here
You want to kill to prevent suffering? Are you serious?
Quote from: Piotr on July 20, 2013, 10:04:59 AM
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on July 20, 2013, 10:01:27 AM
I'm pro choice. Arguments can be made for either side of this topic as we've seen. But IMO the simple truth is there's too much neglect out there already. I hate seeing a child beaten to death or discarded on the news simply bc they couldn't handle being a parent. I believe whole heartedly that if a person believes they are not ready to be a parent then they shouldn't be. Yes, sometimes people step up to the plate and do what needs to be done and raise their child with love and care. But in a lot of instances people can't handle it and their child suffers for it.
Raising my daughter is the hardest and most wonderful thing I've ever done and wouldn't give it up for anything. Just thought I'd throw this in here
You want to kill to prevent suffering? Are you serious?
I'm not here to agrue Piotr. It's my oppinion as I've stated. This is a subject I've gone back and forth on a few times. But this is where I've settled at, pro choice. Yes I see where your coming from. But tell me this...if the fetus has no heartbeat then how can you consider it alive?
Again I don't want to argue so ill probably stop posting on the subject after today. But I will say this...this argument will always be around. There are to many variables to consider which makes a clear answer impossible. It all comes down to oppinion. When my gf told me she was pregnant I told her straight out that I don't want her to get an abortion. She still considered it. I asked her not to have an abortion even if she didn't want her she could sign her over to me. But not everyone is me and not everyone should be allowed to breed.
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on July 20, 2013, 10:27:12 AMI'm not here to agrue Piotr. It's my oppinion as I've stated. This is a subject I've gone back and forth on a few times. But this is where I've settled at, pro choice. Yes I see where your coming from. But tell me this...if the fetus has no heartbeat then how can you consider it alive?
Again I don't want to argue so ill probably stop posting on the subject after today. But I will say this...this argument will always be around. There are to many variables to consider which makes a clear answer impossible. It all comes down to oppinion. When my gf told me she was pregnant I told her straight out that I don't want her to get an abortion. She still considered it. I asked her not to have an abortion even if she didn't want her she could sign her over to me. But not everyone is me and not everyone should be allowed to breed.
Then you completely missed the point of this board. It is here for people who want to discuss, hence the name: Discussion. I couldn't care less about your opinion alone, I care about your arguments backing that opinion, for I cannot discuss opinions, I can only refute your arguments and your logic leading you to that opinion.
The issue of abortion doesn't come down to an opinion, it comes down to the question whether the unborn human is human or not. Unless you ignore that and are of an opinion that it is ok to kill humans who has done nothing wrong, in which case I have nothing but contempt for you. If not, tell my why do you believe that fetus is not human and provide your logic.
Heartbeat is not a requirement of life, a single bacteria cell has no heartbeat yet according to science and logic it is very much alive. Same for the unborn human who for the first few moments of their life is just a single tiny cell. It is not a chicken cell, it is not a dead cell, it is not the mother's cell. According to science, it is a cell of completely unique new human, unattached to mother, in no way part of her body, possessing unique DNA. According to science and logic it is unborn human.
A 16 yr old girl is raped and as a result she's pregnant. Science or not... She should have the right to decide if she wants to go thru the life changing event of a pregnancy. Subject like this don't always go on the simple science of things. Like I said there's to many variables...and whether you like it or not it all comes down to oppinion.
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on July 20, 2013, 10:57:59 AM
A 16 yr old girl is raped and as a result she's pregnant. Science or not... She should have the right to decide if she wants to go thru the life changing event of a pregnancy. Subject like this don't always go on the simple science of things. Like I said there's to many variables...and whether you like it or not it all comes down to oppinion.
Maybe she should, but not over the dead body of another human. As much as I sympathise with that poor girl, it is not her right to kill others to avoid the trauma. I'm sorry.
Whether you like it or not, opinions have no place here. What needs to be proven or disproven is whether fetus is a human. If it isn't, abortion is ok. If it is, abortion is murder.
And what if for reasons unknown the child's killing her? What then? These subjects are never won...we can just keep pilling on variables.
Quote from: Vampyvyrus on July 20, 2013, 11:07:41 AM
And what if for reasons unknown the child's killing her? What then? These subjects are never won...we can just keep pilling on variables.
This has been discussed in this thread before*. If fetus is human, it is subject to the same rules as other humans. In case when the child is killing her, you use the very same logic as when I'm killing you: you kill me in self defense. Abortion is legal when the unborn human is killing the mother. Logic is the ultimate law.
* it is bad form to jump into a discussion without reading the entirety of it first and learning arguments which have already been discussed.
My son was a premie, I know what a preemie is, but thanks. I am still of the opinion that up until a fetus is capable of surviving outside of the womb, it's not yet its own person. Some people see abortion as murder, some do not. Please, I would love to know what you think would happen to the thousands of children would would be born against their parents will each year if abortion were outlawed. Or are you of the opinion that if abortion were illegal, that people who aren't ready to be parents would magically stop having sex?
Eh..,do you know how many kids are never adopted and are thrown through the foster system without a care about them. Brothers and sisters divided because people only like one of them. That's awful, your family is already torn apart, now the last blood relative you have is being essentially sold to some people who didn't really "like" you when interacting for 10 minutes.
Quote from: Muggywuggy on July 20, 2013, 02:27:27 PM
Eh..,do you know how many kids are never adopted and are thrown through the foster system without a care about them. Brothers and sisters divided because people only like one of them. That's awful, your family is already torn apart, now the last blood relative you have is being essentially sold to some people who didn't really "like" you when interacting for 10 minutes.
In developed world there's a chronic lack of newborns for adoption, in some countries you have to wait for as long as 10 years to adopt a newborn. I know, I tried*. So the answer is: none.
What kind of twisted logic led you to believe that death is a better fate than being separated from your siblings? This is madness.
* they basically told me to .love. off and come back in 4 years.
Quote from: Moneekahh on July 20, 2013, 02:09:51 PMI am still of the opinion that up until a fetus is capable of surviving outside of the womb, it's not yet its own person.
Tell me then, what should be the maximum age of the fetus beyond which abortion is illegal?
Quote from: Taysby on July 19, 2013, 07:22:13 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 19, 2013, 02:53:52 PM
Quote from: Taysby on July 19, 2013, 11:28:44 AM
@piotor. Abortion isn't the punishment, the mother had absolutely no choice in the fact she was going to get pregnant, so to make her keep the baby would be PUNISHING her, for another's choices, which I believe is against img law (i might be wrong, so don't yell at me if I am) and should be against everyone's laws and morals.
The problem with the rape scenario, which is an argument that pro-abortionists use often, is that it does not address whether or not the fetus is human or not. Here is why this is relevant: if the fetus is not a human, of course the rape scenario would be a valid argument. Why should a woman have to go through so much suffering just because she was already the victim of even more suffering? Suffering as a punishment for beig raped...not logical. However, ask yourself this. Just in your head: if the fetus is definitely a human, would it be logical to kill this human because it causes the mother suffering? Also, would it be constitutional, considering all humans are created equal? You see, if the fetus is a human, then killing it because it causes a woman pain would be no different than a mother killing a toddler, teenager, or adult because they caused her pain in some way.
So the question is not: "does the mother have the right to choose?" Of course she does. But obviously no one in America has the right to choose to kill a human being. This means that the question is:
"What is the unborn?"
It is extremely simple: if the fetus is human, it has the right to live; if the fetus is not human, it does not have the right to live.
Can you prove a fetus not to be human? I would appreciate it if someone would prove either of my two posts to be wrong.
If the mother is raped, she is going to get it resolved super fast, and conscious thought wouldn't have begun to happen yet, so it is not a human by my standards yet. I she waits until 2 weeks before her due date (exaggerating here) then no. She decided to not do anything about it, and now it's a human.
So, you admit that at some point while it is still in the womb, it becomes human. As to when that is, you say it is when the fetus gains conscience.
The thing you have to realize is that consciousness is not some mythical awarness that makes us who we are. Consciousness is a function performed by our brain cells that lets us know what is going on. According to you, consciousness is what makes a fetus human. So, what if a fetus has a mental problem that prevents it from being conscious. Obviously it won't die if that's the only thing wrong with it. It is born. Still unconscious, but alive. By your standards. It still isn't human. This is why your argument is flawed.
Saying that a fetus becomes human when it gains consciousness is like saying it becomes a human when it grows teeth. Or grows a toungue. Or gains the ability to move. All are levels of development.
To sum it up for you: gaining consciousness is simply a milestone in development for a fetus. Not some point where it suddenly becomes human, just because its brain is aware of things that it was not aware of before.
Like I said before, being less developed then a baby, a teen, or an adult does not make a fetus less human then the rest. All of these I listed are at different stages of life. At no point in time did any become human. Growing a particular brain cell that makes you aware of your surroundings does not unlock the human achievement. It's just like growing legs. Going through puberty. Growing facial hair. All humans grow, and there is no reason to discriminate against a fetus by calling it non-human, just because it is at a smaller stage of growth than someone outside the womb.
And to the argument that a woman has the right to choose:
I agree with your argument. Women do have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies. Unfortunately, a fetus is not a woman's body. It is another person. A human. Read this carefully:
If you are a mother, and you think that murder is wrong, then the ONLY way you can be for abortion is by knowing that a fetus is NOT human. Therefore, to prove that abortion is right, you must prove that a fetus is NOT human.
Proving that women have the right to do what they wish to their bodies is IRRELEVANT. What must be proven is that a pregnant woman is NOT pregnant with a human being.
Given these logically sound facts, it is concluded that stating a woman's right to her own body is an illogical argument for abortion, unless you also support murder.
What must be proven is that a fetus is not human. That is all it takes. However, all of logic says that a fetus is a human.
Quote from: Taysby on July 21, 2013, 04:49:52 PM
Until though or consciousness or some sort of brain function happens, we are just a group of cells being controlled by cells. We aren't capable of anything that defines us as human
What defines us as human? What sort of brain function happens?
I am a group of cells being controlled by cells, this is a scientific fact. So was my fetus. I shared all the cells with my fetus. If my fatus wasn't me, then what was it? If the fetus was me, then I believe I'm human and always was.
Science- Life starts at conception
Theology- it is never morally acceptable to murder another human being
=abortion is always morally wrong.
My case has been stated.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 18, 2013, 09:19:27 AM
The question of abortion is not in whether or not the mother has the right to choose. The question of abortion is whether or not a fetus is a human. If it is not a human, then of course the mother, who is forced to grow fat and endure pain because of this thing, should be able to choose to get rid of it. On the other hand, if a fetus is a human, then there is absolutely no one who can claim that it is the mother's right to choose to get rid of it. That's because it would be like a mother drowning her infant because the infant was ruining her good mood with his crying. That being said, let's see what seperates a fetus from a grown man or woman. And you can the decision as to whether or not these differences are enough to claim that a fetus is not human, and therefore can be disposed of as garbage. As it turns out, there are four things that seperate a fetus from you and me.
1: size. A fetus is much smaller than even a toddler. You could a fetus in the palm of your hand. So, does this difference make it less human than you? Are you more of a human than your friend who is shorter than you, or is your father more human than you because he is larger than you? Is a fetus less of a human than a toddler because it is smaller? Maybe.
2: level of development. A fetus is less developed than a born baby, a toddler, and you and me. A fetus cannot even talk yet. A fetus cannot walk either. Maybe that makes it less human. Is an 18-year old leas human than a fully developed man? Are you more human than your younger sibling? The brain does not finish developing until the thirties. If level of development is something that stops a fetus from being human, these are questions that should be answered.
3: level of dependance. A fetus is pretty much the definition of dependant. A fetus needs to be attatched to the mother for now, or it will obviously die. This looks like a deciding factor, making a fetus not a human. But let's make sure. That one guy in the hospital who can't breath or eat or walk without assistance. Now let's get somethig straight here: we are talking about whether or not this man is human. Not whether or not he should live. That's another debate entirely. So anyways, getting back. This guy. He will never walk. He will never feed himself. He will never breath by himself. Oh, and of course he can't talk. Is he less human are? What about you? What if you live with your parents. They feed you. They buy your singles. Without them you would perish. Maybe you are not as human as you thought.
4: location. Location location location. A fetus is trapped inside of a womb. Well for now, anyways. A fetus cannot really change that fact either. Perhaps the fact that it is in the location of a womb makes it less human, and therefore disposable. Maybe that is it. Let's see, how about a trick question? Ok great. So there are two twenty-somethings. Both dirt poor. One is in Africa and one is in Russia. Neither can change their location, because they lack the means. Which is more human than the other? Ah, I warned you. It's a trick question. They are both human. Okay here's another question. Not a trick question. Mr. Bob lives in China, but Mr. Bob is rich and can go where he pleases. However, Mr. Fetus is not so fortunate. He is trapped in a dark and confined place, nof yet able to go where he pleases. Based on location, which one is more human? Decide.
So, are any of those reasons strong enough to support the claim that a fetus is not human, but somethig else entirely? Something that should be killed if it becomes an inconvenience?
What is the unborn? According to logic, human. What do you think? This post is not meant to feed the fire for anti-abortionists, making them feel all good inside. This post isn't meant to anger people that think abortion is OK either. This post presents the facts to you, the jury. The judge. The exocutioner.
I heard this exact argument from a man who came to our high school to give a speech. I agree with you. Human is human. Murder is murder. Abortion is wrong in nearly all cases.
Quote from: The Pyromancer on July 24, 2013, 11:49:25 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 18, 2013, 09:19:27 AM
The question of abortion is not in whether or not the mother has the right to choose. The question of abortion is whether or not a fetus is a human. If it is not a human, then of course the mother, who is forced to grow fat and endure pain because of this thing, should be able to choose to get rid of it. On the other hand, if a fetus is a human, then there is absolutely no one who can claim that it is the mother's right to choose to get rid of it. That's because it would be like a mother drowning her infant because the infant was ruining her good mood with his crying. That being said, let's see what seperates a fetus from a grown man or woman. And you can the decision as to whether or not these differences are enough to claim that a fetus is not human, and therefore can be disposed of as garbage. As it turns out, there are four things that seperate a fetus from you and me.
1: size. A fetus is much smaller than even a toddler. You could a fetus in the palm of your hand. So, does this difference make it less human than you? Are you more of a human than your friend who is shorter than you, or is your father more human than you because he is larger than you? Is a fetus less of a human than a toddler because it is smaller? Maybe.
2: level of development. A fetus is less developed than a born baby, a toddler, and you and me. A fetus cannot even talk yet. A fetus cannot walk either. Maybe that makes it less human. Is an 18-year old leas human than a fully developed man? Are you more human than your younger sibling? The brain does not finish developing until the thirties. If level of development is something that stops a fetus from being human, these are questions that should be answered.
3: level of dependance. A fetus is pretty much the definition of dependant. A fetus needs to be attatched to the mother for now, or it will obviously die. This looks like a deciding factor, making a fetus not a human. But let's make sure. That one guy in the hospital who can't breath or eat or walk without assistance. Now let's get somethig straight here: we are talking about whether or not this man is human. Not whether or not he should live. That's another debate entirely. So anyways, getting back. This guy. He will never walk. He will never feed himself. He will never breath by himself. Oh, and of course he can't talk. Is he less human are? What about you? What if you live with your parents. They feed you. They buy your singles. Without them you would perish. Maybe you are not as human as you thought.
4: location. Location location location. A fetus is trapped inside of a womb. Well for now, anyways. A fetus cannot really change that fact either. Perhaps the fact that it is in the location of a womb makes it less human, and therefore disposable. Maybe that is it. Let's see, how about a trick question? Ok great. So there are two twenty-somethings. Both dirt poor. One is in Africa and one is in Russia. Neither can change their location, because they lack the means. Which is more human than the other? Ah, I warned you. It's a trick question. They are both human. Okay here's another question. Not a trick question. Mr. Bob lives in China, but Mr. Bob is rich and can go where he pleases. However, Mr. Fetus is not so fortunate. He is trapped in a dark and confined place, nof yet able to go where he pleases. Based on location, which one is more human? Decide.
So, are any of those reasons strong enough to support the claim that a fetus is not human, but somethig else entirely? Something that should be killed if it becomes an inconvenience?
What is the unborn? According to logic, human. What do you think? This post is not meant to feed the fire for anti-abortionists, making them feel all good inside. This post isn't meant to anger people that think abortion is OK either. This post presents the facts to you, the jury. The judge. The exocutioner.
I heard this exact argument from a man who came to our high school to give a speech. I agree with you. Human is human. Murder is murder. Abortion is wrong in nearly all cases.
In which cases is it not "wrong", in your opinion?
There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.
However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.
I think that because there are circumstances where abortion is necessary for someone's survival and because I am strongly against people using law to force their religion on others...I am pro choice.
It pains me when people say that the prolifes are irrelevant because they just try to force religion. Let me ask you a question: at what point in this entire thread did I even mention religion in the slightest to enforce any arguments at all? It's got zero, nothing to do with religion. Religion has absolutely no significance whatsoever when it comes to the abortion argument. Assuming we are all against the murder of innocent humans, then this is the only question that matters:
Is the fetus human?
If yes, then all who think murdering an innocent human is wrong will think abortion is wrong. Religion has nothing to do with it. It is pure logic.
I think I may have been misunderstood. When I said "religion" I guess I meant "system of belief". Beliefs are where we determine values of human life and morality. So yes, this has to do with your "belief system". A woman contemplating an abortion is making one of the hardest choices in her life, let her make it without other people's input. That being said I am against using abortion regularly as a form of birth control but we can't make a '3 strikes you're out' type law.
A lot of the conflicts about abortion come from religious institutions.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-connection-between-abortion-and-religion.htm
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on July 27, 2013, 08:06:20 PM
I think I may have been misunderstood. When I said "religion" I guess I meant "system of belief". Beliefs are where we determine values of human life and morality. So yes, this has to do with your "belief system". A woman contemplating an abortion is making one of the hardest choices in her life, let her make it without other people's input. That being said I am against using abortion regularly as a form of birth control but we can't make a '3 strikes you're out' type law.
Religion is much different than what you call a belief system. Everyone has what you are talking about, everyone has things that they believe. But not everyone has a religion. Two different things. Now a belief system can contain a religion the same way a glass can contain water. But like a glass, someome's belief system is not guarenteed to hold a certain thing, like a religion.
That being said, one thing I cannot stress enough: there are only two beliefs that matter when arguing about abortion.
Number one: is murder okay? I am assuming everyone here does not think that murder is okay. Notice that we all here hold different religions and "belief systems", but we all can agree that it's not okay to murder (kill an innocent human being).
Number two: is the fetus human? Since everyone already agrees with question number one, it is this question that matters most. Again, it has nothing to do with religion. Just logic. Is it more logical that a fetus is a human or is it more logical that it isn't one? Simple. No religion involved, or biased belief systems.
Quote from: Agrus Kos, Enforcer of Truth on July 27, 2013, 08:06:20 PM
A lot of the conflicts about abortion come from religious institutions.
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-connection-between-abortion-and-religion.htm
Just because religious people are the source of some abortion arguments is no reason to believe that religion is what the argument is centered on. When fighting over who is right, people offen focus on what religion their opponents hold rather than the conflict itself.
As I have expressed (but it is useful to stress as much as is needed), abortion arguments are not about a mother's rights or emotions. They are about whether a fetus is human or not.
Answer this: if, in a magical land, a fetus is a human, and everyone knows it (like, it's in the freaking science books and no longer a "hot topic debate"), would a mother's enotions or rights justify her killing a human? It would be no different than killing her teen son, or any other human being. Murder, according to the American justice system.
So, back to reality. See now that if a fetus really is human, the fact that a mother has the right to her own body, or the fact that it is an emotional time for her is utterly irrelevant. This is why you must prove that a fetus isn't human, instead of talking about a woman's rights, emotions, or religion.
Hi, Mommy....I'm your baby. You don't know me yet, I'm only a fewweeks old. You're going to find out about me soon, though, I promise.Let me tell you some things about me. My name is John, and I've gotbeautiful brown eyes and black hair. Well, I don't have it yet, but Iwill when I'm born. I'm going to be your only child, and you'll call meyour one and only. I'm going to grow up without a daddy mostly, but wehave each other. We'll help each other, and love each other. I want tobe a doctor when I grow up.You found out about me today, Mommy! You were so excited, you couldn'twait to tell everyone. All you could do all day was smile, and life wasperfect. You have a beautiful smile, Mommy. It will be the first face Iwill see in my life, and it will be the best thing I see in my life. Iknow it already.Today was the day you told Daddy. You were so excited to tell him aboutme! ...He wasn't happy, Mommy. He kind of got angry. I don't think thatyou noticed, but he did. He started to talk about something calledwedlock, and money, and bills, and stuff I don't think I understandyet. You were still happy, though, so it was okay. Then he didsomething scary, Mommy. He hit you. I could feel you fall backward, andyour hands flying up to protect me. I was okay... but I was very sadfor you. You were crying then, Mommy. That's a sound I don't like. Itdoesn't make me feel good. It made me cry, too. He said sorry after,and he hugged you again. You forgave him, Mommy, but I'm not sure if Ido. It wasn't right. You say he loves you... why would he hurt you? Idon't like it, Mommy.Finally, you can see me! Your stomach is a little bit bigger, andyou're so proud of me! You went out with your mommy to buy new clothes,and you were so so so happy. You sing to me, too. You have the mostbeautiful voice in the whole wide world. When you sing is when I'mhappiest. And you talk to me, and I feel safe. So safe. You just waitand see, Mommy. When I am born I will be perfect just for you. I willmake you proud, and I will love you with all of my heart.I can move my hands and feet now, Mommy. I do it because you put yourhands on your belly to feel me, and I giggle. You giggle, too. I loveyou, Mommy.Daddy came to see you today, Mommy. I got really scared. He was actingfunny and he wasn't talking right. He said he didn't want you. I don'tknow why, but that's what he said. And he hit you again. I got angry,Mommy. When I grow up I promise I won't let you get hurt! I promise toprotect you. Daddy is bad. I don't care if you think that he is a goodperson, I think he's bad. But he hit you, and he said he didn't wantus. He doesn't like me. Why doesn't he like me, Mommy?You didn't talk to me tonight, Mommy. Is everything okay?It's been three days since you saw Daddy. You haven't talked to me ortouched me or anything since that. Don't you still love me, Mommy? Istill love you. I think you feel sad. The only time I feel you is whenyou sleep. You sleep funny, kind of curled up on your side. And you hugme with your arms, and I feel safe and warm again. Why don't you dothat when you're awake, any more?I'm 21 weeks old today, Mommy. Aren't you proud of me? We're goingsomewhere today, and it's somewhere new. I'm excited. It looks like ahospital, too. I want to be a doctor when I grow up, Mommy. Did I tellyou that? I hope you're as excited as I am. I can't wait....Mommy, I'm getting scared. Your heart is still beating, but I don'tknow what you are thinking. The doctor is talking to you. I thinksomething's going to happen soon. I'm really, really, really scared,Mommy. Please tell me you love me. Then I will feel safe again. I loveyou!Mommy, what are they doing to me!? It hurts! Please make them stop! Itfeels bad! Please, Mommy, please please help me! Make them stop!Don't worry Mommy, I'm safe. I'm in heaven with the angels now. Theytold me what you did, and they said it's called an abortion.Why, Mommy? Why did you do it? Don't you love me any more? Why did youget rid of me? I'm really, really, really sorry if I did somethingwrong, Mommy. I love you, Mommy! I love you with all of my heart. Whydon't you love me? What did I do to deserve what they did to me? I wantto live, Mommy! Please! It really, really hurts to see you not careabout me, and not talk to me. Didn't I love you enough? Please sayyou'll keep me, Mommy! I want to live smile and watch the clouds andsee your face and grow up and be a doctor. I don't want to be here, Iwant you to love me again! I'm really really really sorry if I didsomething wrong. I love you!I love you, Mommy.Every abortion is just...
One more heart that was stopped.Two more eyes that will never see.Two more hands that will never touch.
Two more legs that will never run.One more mouth that will never speak.
-Anonymous
Very nice, but this is just art of fiction. We do not know what exactly unborn human feels. We do know with close to 1 probability that all living things want to live, self preservation instinct is part of life. Unborn human is alive.
I want to ask a question...are pre-mature babies humans? At what point does a fetus start being a human, and a human stop being a fetus? I was born twenty days after the scedualed due date. Was I still a fetus seven or eight days after my due date?
Fetuses get there sensory organs pretty darn early. Less than a month after conception. Research shows babies begin to learn language in the womb. Heck, even the seed is a living organism. Arnt even bactirea considered living organisms? This leads me to belive on conclusion...humans are humans upon conception. Yes I know there are instances were abortion would be nessicary...it makes me sad too. But I am über pro-life. And wish there was another way to save the mother in those circumstances besides abortion
If only green magic actualy existed, we would be able to find an awnser through that
I think blue is better at {answering questions}.
I believe abortion is horrible. I used to be fine with it, until my first wife had one. She didn't tell me she was pregnant. I found out 2 weeks after it happened while going through the bank statement. Her reason, having a baby would mess up her life. She was in college and she would have had to drop out and put her life on hold. I divorced her because of this, couldn't take her murdering my child. My current wife is now pregnant with our second child. I just got to see him and hear his heart beat yesterday. Anyone can say they're for abortion. See how you feel about it when it's YOURS
Quote from: Taysby on August 01, 2013, 03:02:17 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 27, 2013, 07:40:23 AM
There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.
However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.
If taking the medication would kill the baby, wouldn't it be more humane to just have the abortion? (Not arguing, honest question)
Abortion is anything but humane, mate, and I'm not talking about philosophy here. Google for the gory details if you really have to.
Quote from: Taysby on August 01, 2013, 03:02:17 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 27, 2013, 07:40:23 AM
There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.
However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.
If taking the medication would kill the baby, wouldn't it be more humane to just have the abortion? (Not arguing, honest question)
That is a good question. Here's my answer:
If you notice a man dying of cancer, would it be humane to kill him? He would die anyways. What if you were his mother? It doesn't change much does it. Just because someone is probably going to die, doesn't make it humane to kill them for that reason. Also another note: a fetus dying because the mother is taking medicine (which is used to save her life) is far more "humane" than cutting the fetus with a knife to kill it, while making an invasion into the mother's body to do it. And also, there is not always a 100 percent chance that a fetus will die because of medication. So, just because a fetus will probably die, you kill it so your own life can be more convenient? That doesn't fly.
Quote from: YumiBug on August 01, 2013, 01:49:46 AM
Hi, Mommy....I'm your baby. You don't know me yet, I'm only a fewweeks old. You're going to find out about me soon, though, I promise.Let me tell you some things about me. My name is John, and I've gotbeautiful brown eyes and black hair. Well, I don't have it yet, but Iwill when I'm born. I'm going to be your only child, and you'll call meyour one and only. I'm going to grow up without a daddy mostly, but wehave each other. We'll help each other, and love each other. I want tobe a doctor when I grow up.You found out about me today, Mommy! You were so excited, you couldn'twait to tell everyone. All you could do all day was smile, and life wasperfect. You have a beautiful smile, Mommy. It will be the first face Iwill see in my life, and it will be the best thing I see in my life. Iknow it already.Today was the day you told Daddy. You were so excited to tell him aboutme! ...He wasn't happy, Mommy. He kind of got angry. I don't think thatyou noticed, but he did. He started to talk about something calledwedlock, and money, and bills, and stuff I don't think I understandyet. You were still happy, though, so it was okay. Then he didsomething scary, Mommy. He hit you. I could feel you fall backward, andyour hands flying up to protect me. I was okay... but I was very sadfor you. You were crying then, Mommy. That's a sound I don't like. Itdoesn't make me feel good. It made me cry, too. He said sorry after,and he hugged you again. You forgave him, Mommy, but I'm not sure if Ido. It wasn't right. You say he loves you... why would he hurt you? Idon't like it, Mommy.Finally, you can see me! Your stomach is a little bit bigger, andyou're so proud of me! You went out with your mommy to buy new clothes,and you were so so so happy. You sing to me, too. You have the mostbeautiful voice in the whole wide world. When you sing is when I'mhappiest. And you talk to me, and I feel safe. So safe. You just waitand see, Mommy. When I am born I will be perfect just for you. I willmake you proud, and I will love you with all of my heart.I can move my hands and feet now, Mommy. I do it because you put yourhands on your belly to feel me, and I giggle. You giggle, too. I loveyou, Mommy.Daddy came to see you today, Mommy. I got really scared. He was actingfunny and he wasn't talking right. He said he didn't want you. I don'tknow why, but that's what he said. And he hit you again. I got angry,Mommy. When I grow up I promise I won't let you get hurt! I promise toprotect you. Daddy is bad. I don't care if you think that he is a goodperson, I think he's bad. But he hit you, and he said he didn't wantus. He doesn't like me. Why doesn't he like me, Mommy?You didn't talk to me tonight, Mommy. Is everything okay?It's been three days since you saw Daddy. You haven't talked to me ortouched me or anything since that. Don't you still love me, Mommy? Istill love you. I think you feel sad. The only time I feel you is whenyou sleep. You sleep funny, kind of curled up on your side. And you hugme with your arms, and I feel safe and warm again. Why don't you dothat when you're awake, any more?I'm 21 weeks old today, Mommy. Aren't you proud of me? We're goingsomewhere today, and it's somewhere new. I'm excited. It looks like ahospital, too. I want to be a doctor when I grow up, Mommy. Did I tellyou that? I hope you're as excited as I am. I can't wait....Mommy, I'm getting scared. Your heart is still beating, but I don'tknow what you are thinking. The doctor is talking to you. I thinksomething's going to happen soon. I'm really, really, really scared,Mommy. Please tell me you love me. Then I will feel safe again. I loveyou!Mommy, what are they doing to me!? It hurts! Please make them stop! Itfeels bad! Please, Mommy, please please help me! Make them stop!Don't worry Mommy, I'm safe. I'm in heaven with the angels now. Theytold me what you did, and they said it's called an abortion.Why, Mommy? Why did you do it? Don't you love me any more? Why did youget rid of me? I'm really, really, really sorry if I did somethingwrong, Mommy. I love you, Mommy! I love you with all of my heart. Whydon't you love me? What did I do to deserve what they did to me? I wantto live, Mommy! Please! It really, really hurts to see you not careabout me, and not talk to me. Didn't I love you enough? Please sayyou'll keep me, Mommy! I want to live smile and watch the clouds andsee your face and grow up and be a doctor. I don't want to be here, Iwant you to love me again! I'm really really really sorry if I didsomething wrong. I love you!I love you, Mommy.Every abortion is just...
One more heart that was stopped.Two more eyes that will never see.Two more hands that will never touch.
Two more legs that will never run.One more mouth that will never speak.
-Anonymous
Heartfelt. Work on spacing!
I think the poem is nice, but it doesn't contribute much since it only exists to make people who are already against abortion feel better about themselves. It sounds really cynical I know, but it just uses emotional content to fuel minds already set against against abortion. I think it's more helpful to present logical arguments to support your claims. I don't think it's stupid, but it is better used on an anti-abortionist forum than in a debate thread.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on August 01, 2013, 10:51:59 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 01, 2013, 03:02:17 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 27, 2013, 07:40:23 AM
There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.
However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.
If taking the medication would kill the baby, wouldn't it be more humane to just have the abortion? (Not arguing, honest question)
That is a good question. Here's my answer:
If you notice a man dying of cancer, would it be humane to kill him? He would die anyways. What if you were his mother? It doesn't change much does it. Just because someone is probably going to die, doesn't make it humane to kill them for that reason. Also another note: a fetus dying because the mother is taking medicine (which is used to save her life) is far more "humane" than cutting the fetus with a knife to kill it, while making an invasion into the mother's body to do it. And also, there is not always a 100 percent chance that a fetus will die because of medication. So, just because a fetus will probably die, you kill it so your own life can be more convenient? That doesn't fly.
What if the fetus got messed up from medicin and was born with life long problems because of the medicin.
Quote from: YumiBug on August 01, 2013, 11:04:57 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on August 01, 2013, 10:51:59 PM
Quote from: Taysby on August 01, 2013, 03:02:17 PM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on July 27, 2013, 07:40:23 AM
There are cases in which the fetus will kill the mother because it is attatched to a vital organ in an unnatural way. These cases are ones where abortion is justified. Either both die, or the fetus dies.
However that case is rare. A more relevant one is this: the mother has a life-threatening disease, and the medication needed to save her will most likely kill or harm the fetus. Let me make sure I'm clear: I don't support abortion in this case. However, it is very necessary for the mother to take the medication. Obviously, she needs it or she will die. It is not ethical to kill someone though, just because they would probably die anyways. Abortion in this case does not help the mother's health, it just gets rid of an inconvenience to her. And then it becomes unjustified. Just so we are clear though, I am not saying the mother should avoid using medication in an attempt to save the fetus.
If taking the medication would kill the baby, wouldn't it be more humane to just have the abortion? (Not arguing, honest question)
That is a good question. Here's my answer:
If you notice a man dying of cancer, would it be humane to kill him? He would die anyways. What if you were his mother? It doesn't change much does it. Just because someone is probably going to die, doesn't make it humane to kill them for that reason. Also another note: a fetus dying because the mother is taking medicine (which is used to save her life) is far more "humane" than cutting the fetus with a knife to kill it, while making an invasion into the mother's body to do it. And also, there is not always a 100 percent chance that a fetus will die because of medication. So, just because a fetus will probably die, you kill it so your own life can be more convenient? That doesn't fly.
What if the fetus got messed up from medicin and was born with life long problems because of the medicin.
That is another good question.
Then that is very unfortunate. But do you know what else sucks? Beig dead. Would you say that unless a fetus has no forseeable problems, it should be aborted? Just because the possibility exists that a fetus will be born with problems, like retardation or some mutation, that does not justify killing.
Here is a scenario. I see a man lose his wife and job. Why? Because he lost his legs in a car accident. His wife turned out to be not so loyal, and he couldn't do his job anymore. I look at this guy, and make the judgement that he would be better off dead. Him being alive would probably just be an inconvenience to himself and others. So I kill him.
Here is another scenario. I have this fetus growing inside of me. I am currently on meds, or I will die from a disease. Giving birth to this fetus won't kill me, but here's the thing: my doctor said that my fetus will probably lose his legs if I give birth to it. That's the effect of my meds. My baby being alive will only be an invonvenience to everyone. I make the judgement call and kill it.
Now, what was different about the scenarios? Both scenarios depict victims of circumstances beyond their control. One had a car crash into him the other was mutated by medicine.
One person killed was fully grown, the other was not. Was the fetus less human than the man because of this?
One did not depend on his mother, the other still did. Was the fetus less human than the man because of this?
One was in a city, the other in te womb of a mother. Was the fetus less human than the man because they were in different locations?
Even if you think that someone else probably shouldn't live, it doesn't give you the right to make that decision.
Against abortion. If the girl doesn't want the baby. The least she could do is put it up for adoption. But wait, then her parents might be mad at her for being pregnant. So what, her stupid decision got her into the mess. She doesn't have to kill the baby for it.
It's one thing to abort a few days after intercourse or so. Its a whole new ball game to abort at six to nine months or right after the baby is born. In china they take the babies and drop them in buckets of water to drown. And one abortion doctor keeps parts as trophies of the babies he killed. Isn't that takin it to far?
Quote from: Taggerung Juskazann on August 02, 2013, 07:59:28 AM
Against abortion. If the girl doesn't want the baby. The least she could do is put it up for adoption. But wait, then her parents might be mad at her for being pregnant. So what, her stupid decision got her into the mess. She doesn't have to kill the baby for it.
I love how you absolve the male who got her pregnant of all responsibility, totally not his fault if he didn't use birth control.
Carrying the pregnancy to term, particularly in what I presume is a high school situation since you imply that she lives with her parents, only leads her to be socially ostracized and put at a disadvantage. She isn't killing the baby if she's having an abortion, for it to have been a baby it would have had to been born.
Quote from: Taggerung Juskazann on August 02, 2013, 08:28:40 AM
It's one thing to abort a few days after intercourse or so. Its a whole new ball game to abort at six to nine months or right after the baby is born. In china they take the babies and drop them in buckets of water to drown. And one abortion doctor keeps parts as trophies of the babies he killed. Isn't that takin it to far?
Most women don't know they're pregnant until a few weeks after intercourse, so it's almost impossible to abort in the first few days beyond the 'morning after pill', which isn't an abortion.
You cannot perform an abortion after birth, that is infanticide (murder), as is the Chinese example. How are those two even relevant to abortion beyond being examples of the result of poor/no access to abortions?
Would love to see how this abortion doctor that publicly keeps these 'trophies' and wasn't thrown out by the medical community, mind posting the story/source?
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 08:40:55 AMShe isn't killing the baby if she's having an abortion, for it to have been a baby it would have had to been born.
According to iMtG law and logic, this is a lie.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 08:47:12 AM'morning after pill', which isn't an abortion.
What is definition of an abortion?
abortion is ridding yoursel of an unborn fetus. Or guilt. For a story based on a true one. Watch October Baby. It's on netflix. I just don't support abortion but I don't want to make enemies either. So I'll refrain from postin any more here. In case I get PO'd.
The boy is just as guilty to thouh. I honestl didn think about that at that point. Not changing tune.
Quote from: Taggerung Juskazann on August 02, 2013, 09:54:52 AM
abortion is ridding yoursel of an unborn fetus.
What is the definition of fetus?
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 09:38:02 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 08:47:12 AM'morning after pill', which isn't an abortion.
What is definition of an abortion?
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion):
Abortion is the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo prior to viability.
The morning after pill (emergency contraception) from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_after_pill):
Are drugs intended to disrupt or delay ovulation or fertilization.
Abortion ends a pregnancy, 'the morning after pill' prevents it(fertilization) from happening.
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 09:36:19 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 08:40:55 AMShe isn't killing the baby if she's having an abortion, for it to have been a baby it would have had to been born.
According to iMtG law and logic, this is a lie.
What do you mean?
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 10:35:29 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 09:38:02 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 08:47:12 AM'morning after pill', which isn't an abortion.
What is definition of an abortion?
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion):
Abortion is the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo prior to viability.
The morning after pill (emergency contraception) from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_after_pill):
Are drugs intended to disrupt or delay ovulation or fertilization.
Abortion ends a pregnancy, 'the morning after pill' prevents it(fertilization) from happening.
What effect does 'the morning after pill' have if fertilisation already happened?
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 10:46:58 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 09:36:19 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 08:40:55 AMShe isn't killing the baby if she's having an abortion, for it to have been a baby it would have had to been born.
According to iMtG law and logic, this is a lie.
What do you mean?
Logic of sets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory
Human fetus is an unborn baby, which is a kind of baby, which is a kind of human.
Killing humans is only legal as a punishment. Unborn baby has done nothing wrong hence capital punishment is out of the question.
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 10:55:30 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 10:35:29 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 09:38:02 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 08:47:12 AM'morning after pill', which isn't an abortion.
What is definition of an abortion?
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion):
Abortion is the termination of pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo prior to viability.
The morning after pill (emergency contraception) from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_after_pill):
Are drugs intended to disrupt or delay ovulation or fertilization.
Abortion ends a pregnancy, 'the morning after pill' prevents it(fertilization) from happening.
What effect does 'the morning after pill' have if fertilisation already happened?
Nothing, if fertilization has occurred, taking something trying to prevent it from happening wouldn't do anything if it already has happened.
The wikipedia article notes that "Emergency contraceptive pills (ECPs) are not to be confused with mifepristone (RU486, Mifeprex), which is used as an "abortion pill". The term "emergency contraceptive pill" does not refer to mifespristone, which is most commonly used in 200 or 600 mg doses as an abortifacient."
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 11:04:02 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 10:55:30 AMWhat effect does 'the morning after pill' have if fertilisation already happened?
Nothing, if fertilization has occurred, taking something trying to prevent it from happening wouldn't do anything if it already has happened.
Assuming the above to be true, I think 'the morning after pill' is legal under iMtG law. I know of two ladies who agreed to obey iMtG law in real life, so this is less theoretical than you think ;)
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 10:59:59 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 10:46:58 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 09:36:19 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 08:40:55 AMShe isn't killing the baby if she's having an abortion, for it to have been a baby it would have had to been born.
According to iMtG law and logic, this is a lie.
What do you mean?
Logic of sets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory
Human fetus is an unborn baby, which is a kind of baby, which is a kind of human.
Killing humans is only legal as a punishment. Unborn baby has done nothing wrong hence capital punishment is out of the question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood
Whether the fetus is a person is one of the primary sources of debate on abortion, and there has yet to be a universally accepted definition of it.
I am of the belief that a fetus is not a person until it is born. You are not. Neither of us can sufficiently convince the other who is right, or if both of us are wrong and there's some middle ground that hasn't been found/accepted as fact yet.
Calling me a liar can only be valid if I stated a fact, when I actually stated an opinion. Ultimately this is a matter of opinion, you are entitled to believe what you want as much as I am.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 11:19:55 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 10:59:59 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 10:46:58 AM
Quote from: Piotr on August 02, 2013, 09:36:19 AM
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 08:40:55 AMShe isn't killing the baby if she's having an abortion, for it to have been a baby it would have had to been born.
According to iMtG law and logic, this is a lie.
What do you mean?
Logic of sets: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_theory
Human fetus is an unborn baby, which is a kind of baby, which is a kind of human.
Killing humans is only legal as a punishment. Unborn baby has done nothing wrong hence capital punishment is out of the question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_of_human_personhood
Whether the fetus is a person is one of the primary sources of debate on abortion, and there has yet to be a universally accepted definition of it.
Under iMtG law we don't have this problem. It was sufficiently proven, using adequate logic, that human fetus is a kind of human.
I refer you to the works of Coffee Vampire for the details. If you feel strong enough to refute his logic, we are all ears.
Quote from: ihasfrozen on August 02, 2013, 11:19:55 AM
Calling me a liar can only be valid if I stated a fact, when I actually stated an opinion.
Calling you a liar can be done legally if you are in fact a liar, i.e. a person who spreads lies knowing they are lies. You probably just repeated someone's lie, that's why I didn't call you a liar.