So i had a (Geralf's Messenger) in play with an undying +1/+1 on it and i (Black Suns Zenith) for 4 why does undying not trigger again? Shouldnt the counters be removed?
It will however only if u dont kill your own creature with {Black Sun Zenith}. all you need to do is put however many -1/-1 on the creature as there are +1/+1.
Is it not a static ability that removes the -1/-1 for the +1/+1?
Ok when you cast a {black suns zenith} and pump it enough to kill your {geralfs messenger} he will go to the graveyard, now undying triggers, the reason he does not come back is because at the last instant he was on the battle field, undying see him as a creature with, let's say four -1/-1 counters on him, and one +1/+1 counter on him, hence undying does not trigger. Why you ask, I'm sure it is a stack issue. Prolly some gibberish that will say the creature dies as a result of the loss of toughness, and the counters don't yet annihilate eachother before this happens. Too technical if you ask me. But hey it's the game we play.
-1/-1 counters cancel each other out, don't they? I'm pretty sure undying would trigger here.
Quote from: Maximo on March 02, 2012, 02:54:42 PM
-1/-1 counters cancel each other out, don't they? I'm pretty sure undying would trigger here.
No it won't. Black sunning for 4 would kill the messager before the +1/+1 counters are removed. So when undying triggers it will still see the messager still having the +1/+1 counter on it.
You must first remove the +1/+1 with a -1/-1 BEFORE u kill it. Say u have a 2/2 with a +1/+1 counter. You black sun for 3. They dont cancel out until after the state based. It would die before they cancel. Undying will check for a +1/+1. The 2/2 died with 1 +1/+1 and 3 -1/-1.
Removing the counters and destroying the creatures are both State Based Actions (CR704.5) and all are check and performed simultaneously. When the creature dies, undying will check to see if a +1/+1 counter was on it just before it died, which it did.
From the Mothership:
"If a creature ever has +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters on it, the two kinds of counters immediately "cancel out," one for one, until only one kind of counter remains. For example, a creature with three +1/+1 counters and two -1/-1 counters would end up with one +1/+1 counter. There's a twist, though: If a creature with +1/+1 counters on it gets enough -1/-1 counters to kill it, it dies before the two counters have the chance to cancel out. For example, if your Strangleroot Geist with a +1/+1 counter on it got three -1/-1 counters from Skinrender's "enters the battlefield" ability, the Geist would die with one +1/+1 counter and three -1/-1 counters and wouldn't return to the battlefield."
Quote from: BadLuckIrish on March 02, 2012, 03:08:19 PM
You must first remove the +1/+1 with a -1/-1 BEFORE u kill it. Say u have a 2/2 with a +1/+1 counter. You black sun for 3. They dont cancel out until after the state based. It would die before they cancel. Undying will check for a +1/+1. The 2/2 died with 1 +1/+1 and 3 -1/-1.
Much better then the way I explained it.
So another question i have is of i did not know it was going to happen like that can i take it back?
Quote from: Tetsomori on March 02, 2012, 04:48:55 PM
So another question i have is of i did not know it was going to happen like that can i take it back?
Depends. Is this a casual game with friends, or a sanctioned event?
Santioned standard tourney. I only wanted to reduce the mana i put into it not fully change my play
Quote from: Tetsomori on March 02, 2012, 04:55:46 PM
Santioned standard tourney. I only wanted to reduce the mana i put into it not fully change my play
FNM isn't supposed to be super intense. It's not exactly the pro tour, but officially you don't get "do overs". If you explain your intention to your opponent they might let you off in the name of goodwill, but they don't have to either.
Well my gf was my opponet and she told me to take it back/ do whatever but the local judge said i couldnt change it at all. He isnt even a lvl 1 judge
A game error is one thing, but a bad play usually means you're out of luck.
I need to bone up on my tournament rules.
So if the judge can make those calls i will be the dbag that makes fnm like the pro tour. Also is there a way to report a judge acting a dbag?
It's long, but this is from DCI Judge:
Rules Enforcement Level is a means to communicate to the players and judges what expectations they can have of the event in terms of rigidity of rules enforcement, technically correct play, and procedures used.
The REL of an event will increase based on the prizes awarded and the distance a player may be expected to travel. People who travel further are often more competitive and are likely to desire correctness over fun. The REL of the event should reflect this.
The penalties in this guide already take into account the REL of the event and as such judges are not to deviate from this guide based on a perceived "lower REL".
Regular
Regular events are focused on fun and social aspects, not enforcement. Most tournaments are run at this level unless they offer sizeable prizes or invitations. Players are expected to know most of the game rules, may have heard of policy and what is "really bad", but generally play in a fashion similar to the way he or she does at home. Players are still responsible for following the rules, but the focus is on education and sportsmanship over technically precise play. Though much of the philosophy still applies, Regular REL events are not the focus of this guide, and Judging at Regular REL should be used instead.
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Competitive
Competitive events are those with significant cash prizes, pro points, and/or invitations awarded to Professional events. Players are expected to know the game's rules - but not to a technically detailed level - and be familiar with the policies and procedures, but unintentional errors are not punished severely. These are events that protect the interests of all players by providing event integrity while also recognizing that not all players are intimately familiar with Professional-level event structure, proper procedures, and rules.
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Professional
Professional level events offer large cash awards, prestige, and other benefits that draw players from great distances. These events hold players to a higher standard of behavior and technically correct play than Competitive events.
Is this local judge a Rules Advisor? Or is he just an unofficial person helping out?
Hes a rules advisor and according to what i just read he shouldnt be able to force me to keep the play if my opponent is ok with me changing the play am i correct? The entire deal with him is everytime i show up he always harasses me at my matches. He will sit and watch my game and never cuts me slack but does not fo this with his buddies. I dropped a tragic slip from my hand on accident. As in it was my untap step and as i was setting my hand down it flipped up. He made me play it and choose the only target on the field at the time which was my gravecrawler.. It lost me the game. When i started to state my case he told me he will drop me from the tourney if i didnt make the play. Since then i havd yet to be back.
That doesn't sound right
Exactly hence why i want to report him and his clique for these actions. Theres only like 9-11 people that go there and 4 of them are his friends. They take stuff back without asking. They make up rules sometimes. My gf is a traveling RN and we play at a lot of places but this one is corrupt. Id like to stop this and make them lOse their sanctioning or ban them all for this.
If he is a rules advisor he should know better. I will see if I can get you some info on reporting a judge.
Ty jester
If that doesn't work talk to the store owner and tell them and let them know you can take your business else where. Unless you live in the middle of nowhere. I know of a few shops that would kill for regulars for tournements
I would love to sit across from this kid and wreck him in a game, then just pack up and leave.
Remember that 👊. Jester mentioned.... Yep, I'd offer it for sure!
Tetsomori, you can contact your Regional Judge:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/events.aspx?x=judge/resources/coords
and bring it up with them.