Ok anyone in combo corner knows about the controversy with my post about {Mind Over Matter}, {Temple Bell} combo. Just looking for verification on this, once the combo begins it cannot be stopped by any opponent response correct? Due to the fact that priority passes to yourself before anyone else allowing you to inifinatly stack triggers of said effect having them resolve simultaneously burying any responses on the stack. Can a judge please verify this for me so we can put it to rest. Thanks
I made a post with the following Ruling on that topic:
116.3c (http://imtgapp.com/forum/index.php?action=imtg;area=rule;number=116.3c): If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability, or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
You are correct, you can continue to stack the triggers, since you'll get priority after the ability goes on the stack.
Thank you good sir!
Quote from: Twiztid_ninja on May 31, 2013, 07:41:33 PM
Thank you good sir!
No problem!
I made a post in the Combo Corner discussion, but I'll put it here too.
You can continue this as long as you have a card in hand. Once you do, you'll no longer have a card to discard for {Mind Over Matter}, since the {Temple Bell}s ability will still be on the stack. You'll have to pass priority to the other player to continue the combo. It's very unlikely that they'll be able to stop it (since there will be a bunch of triggers to stop) but they do have the option to try!
One thing to note: none of the triggers on the stack resolve before your opponent has a chance to react to them.
If I were to {Oblivion Ring} {Temple Bell} would that not stop the combo in the future? Obviously the triggers on the stack would still resolve. I just want to make sure I understand this.
Quote from: Redrighthand on June 01, 2013, 12:06:39 AM
If I were to {Oblivion Ring} {Temple Bell} would that not stop the combo in the future? Obviously the triggers on the stack would still resolve. I just want to make sure I understand this.
If you could manage to play it, yes. {Oblivion Ring} can only be played at sorcery speed, so it would be tricky to pull off. Removing one of the pieces would stop the combo.
Sorry poor choice of card, perhaps {Torch Fiend} would have been better.
So then this combo can be stopped. And is not "unstoppable" as has been previously stated.
Quote from: Redrighthand on June 01, 2013, 12:20:14 AM
Sorry poor choice of card, perhaps {Torch Fiend} would have been better.
So then this combo can be stopped. And is not "unstoppable" as has been previously stated.
Nothing is "unstoppable" as far as I'm concerned. However, this one can be pretty hard to deal with. If you don't have the proper instant speed removal to take care of the combo piece(s), its game over.
If you try any conventional removal of a combo piece here, he can respond by discarding another card to Mind Over Matter to untap Temple Bell and keep the combo going, all while the removal ability is under it on the stack, never getting a chance to resolve.
One of the sure ways to stop this combo is to use a split second removal like {Wipe Away} or {Krosan Grip} so they cannot respond at all. I'm sure there are others but these are just some examples.
Quote from: RayZoh on June 01, 2013, 12:27:02 AM
If you try any conventional removal of a combo piece here, he can respond by discarding another card to Mind Over Matter to untap Temple Bell and keep the combo going, all while the removal ability is under it on the stack, never getting a chance to resolve.
Not quite. Once he runs out of cards to discard, he has to wait for {Temple Bell}s effect to draw him one. In response, you play the removal spell, and it goes off right before the draw trigger.
I should have been clearer, in my example I was going with the assumption that he/she had already discarded their entire hand.
I want to be clear that I am not refuting the awesomeness of this combo, merely the assertion that it could not, under any circumstances, be stopped.
Yep. That can definitely stop the combo. I meant my example as a situation where your opponent has any kind of hand remaining when they begin the combo.
Why do it your whole hand at once? Why not card by card, leaving you time to draw another card and respond to instant removals?
Would you not just mill yourself out and lose the game? I'm confused by this combo.
Quote from: Jehrad on June 01, 2013, 10:08:04 AM
Would you not just mill yourself out and lose the game? I'm confused by this combo.
You would, but you play {Emrakul, the Aeons Torn} {Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre} or {Kozilek, Butcher of Truth}. When you discard one of these, you reshuffle your graveyard back into your library.
Just for the sake of showing how to stop this from the opponents perspective. {time stop} , {stifle} & {radiate} , among others. When the opponent gets priority of course.
{Time stop} is already instant.
If they pitch their whole hand at once then they dont understand the combo and shouldn't be playing it.
Split second is your best bet at removing the combo. Or you can just throw enough answers at it that they cant discard enough cards to keep their ability resolving before your answers.
Quote from: Firemind on June 01, 2013, 12:16:39 PM
Just for the sake of showing how to stop this from the opponents perspective. {time stop} , {stifle} & {radiate} , among others. When the opponent gets priority of course.
you can continue the combo resolving on top of all of those, as long as you don't discard all your cards at once.
I don't understand how radiate should stop the combo any way. Also, against stifle, you can even continue the combo after it resolves
Ok so then would you not have to wait for Mom ({Mind Over Matter}) to resolve to untap the {Temple Bell} making it actually impossible to stack the triggers of {Temple Bell} at all? Lets say for example if someone were to respond to activating the ability on {Temple Bell} with a {Disenchant}, you can respond by discarding a card and activating {Mind Over Matter} targeting the {Temple Bell} to untap it, however in order for it to untap you have to let the stack resolve so in the end the combo would break after that point. Ok that makes sense.
You dont have to let the full stack resolve. Two consecutive priority passes resolves the first part of the stack.
Lets say your opponent gets this combo off and you want to stop it with {disenchant}.
Opponent taps {temple bell} to draw a card and passes priority. You let it resolve. He then discards to pay for {mind over matter} and passes priority. You respond with the disenchant and pass priority back. He then responds with discarding a card for MOM to untap the bell. Untap resolves and before the disenchant resolves he discards again and life gets bad. To stop the combo you have to have a response (and be able to pay for it) for each card in his hand. Very nasty but its at least conceivable that you can stop it.
Quote from: Pleeb on June 03, 2013, 01:05:06 AM
Lets say your opponent gets this combo off and you want to stop it with {disenchant}.
Opponent taps {temple bell} to draw a card and passes priority. You let it resolve. He then discards to pay for {mind over matter} and passes priority. You respond with the disenchant and pass priority back. He then responds with discarding a card for MOM to untap the bell. Untap resolves and before the disenchant resolves he discards again and life gets bad. To stop the combo you have to have a response (and be able to pay for it) for each card in his hand. Very nasty but its at least conceivable that you can stop it.
Just need {Krosan Grip}. Once on the stack, nothing else can be added.