What's everybody's thoughts on the rules changes for m14?
I like them. They make the game more intuative and it just makes a whole lot more sense. The new rule changes prevent some stupid things from happening, prevent game losses due to stupid reasons, and make the game more fun by eliminating the "I play jace to kill your jace" or "I play my geist to kill yours" BS.
My favorite is the sideboarding change. That really needed to happen.
Linky for those that want to read about it.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg%2Fdaily%2Ffeature%2F248e
I like the one legendary rule it made sense to me as in there is one of this creature you are on one planes, and if two exist game breaks. That and I used clone do much as a kill spell it. That really hurts me
Edit: I don't like the legendary rule
I don't like the new rules at all. Especially the legend, and the planeswalker rule. The land bugged me too! I mean that is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I cared so little about the keyword thing in all honesty.
But the three rule changes were in my thought stupid. What do you think made Obdozat so unique?
I forgot to mention. How about that {Primal Surge}. What will happen to that?
I honestly think that they are trying to make mtg dumbed down an easier. I don't like this slippery slope.
Extra land plays just got harder to exploit, and the sideboard just got derped. I mean, how hard is it to count your 15 card sideboard and make sure you have them all there.
What the .love.. Legendary creatures don't kill each other now? What? Why the hell would you change that? Are you freaking kidding me? Sometimes that is literally the only way to deal with a legendary creature on the other side of the field. Wizards, you really let me down this time.
Lame.
That Legend/Planeswalker rule is so drastic that literally makes me question whether or not I want to continue playing Magic after July.
Quote from: Wally on May 23, 2013, 02:08:34 AM
Extra land plays just got harder to exploit, and the sideboard just got derped. I mean, how hard is it to count your 15 card sideboard and make sure you have them all there.
Exactly, especially about land play. But I still ask the question, what will happen to {primal surge}, after all you can't play the land if you run into it, defeating the purpose of the card.
I think we should send a civilized message to Mark Rosewater about the rule changes, and why they happened?
Yes that should happen. It needs to happen
SB change ok, livable, legendary tool is just stupid, makes things WAY too easy, so much for board consideration. Just play whatever you want don't worry that your opponent already has it.
Quote from: FlickerYourOwnIdentity on May 23, 2013, 02:35:24 AM
Quote from: Wally on May 23, 2013, 02:08:34 AM
Extra land plays just got harder to exploit, and the sideboard just got derped. I mean, how hard is it to count your 15 card sideboard and make sure you have them all there.
Exactly, especially about land play. But I still ask the question, what will happen to {primal surge}, after all you can't play the land if you run into it, defeating the purpose of the card.
I think we should send a civilized message to Mark Rosewater about the rule changes, and why they happened?
I think {Primal Surge} is an exception because Lands meet the requirement of the card which is Permanent.
Quote from: Crapshooter on May 23, 2013, 02:43:28 AM
SB change ok, livable, legendary tool is just stupid, makes things WAY too easy, so much for board consideration. Just play whatever you want don't worry that your opponent already has it.
Yeah the more I think about it the more I get upset. I can't stomach this right now. I play Magic as often as I can on a competitive level. I pay money to play in larger tournaments. I play Modern as often as I can. This seriously upsets me. The repercussions are huge! Now one can swap out PW's when they topdeck another. "Yeah, I'm gonna -2 Lilly then play another. The second will stay in play, I'll let my first one die because I want to -2 you again.", "Yeah, my {Obzedat, Ghost Council} is going to beat your face in and not even {Lord of the Void} ripping one from the top of my library is going to save you now because they won't kill each other.". I hope when I wake up tomorrow this bullshit will be erased from existence. This is just plain dumb.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on May 23, 2013, 02:53:39 AM
Quote from: Crapshooter on May 23, 2013, 02:43:28 AM
SB change ok, livable, legendary tool is just stupid, makes things WAY too easy, so much for board consideration. Just play whatever you want don't worry that your opponent already has it.
Yeah the more I think about it the more I get upset. I can't stomach this right now. I play Magic as often as I can on a competitive level. I pay money to play in larger tournaments. I play Modern as often as I can. This seriously upsets me. The repercussions are huge! Now one can swap out PW's when they topdeck another. "Yeah, I'm gonna -2 Lilly then play another. The second will stay in play, I'll let my first one die because I want to -2 you again.", "Yeah, my {Obzedat, Ghost Council} is going to beat your face in and not even {Lord of the Void} ripping one from the top of my library is going to save you now because they won't kill each other.". I hope when I wake up tomorrow this bullshit will be erased from existence. This is just plain dumb.
Well in that particular case the life gain and lose would cancel each other out
Quote from: Millionlittlee on May 23, 2013, 02:57:13 AM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on May 23, 2013, 02:53:39 AM
Quote from: Crapshooter on May 23, 2013, 02:43:28 AM
SB change ok, livable, legendary tool is just stupid, makes things WAY too easy, so much for board consideration. Just play whatever you want don't worry that your opponent already has it.
Yeah the more I think about it the more I get upset. I can't stomach this right now. I play Magic as often as I can on a competitive level. I pay money to play in larger tournaments. I play Modern as often as I can. This seriously upsets me. The repercussions are huge! Now one can swap out PW's when they topdeck another. "Yeah, I'm gonna -2 Lilly then play another. The second will stay in play, I'll let my first one die because I want to -2 you again.", "Yeah, my {Obzedat, Ghost Council} is going to beat your face in and not even {Lord of the Void} ripping one from the top of my library is going to save you now because they won't kill each other.". I hope when I wake up tomorrow this bullshit will be erased from existence. This is just plain dumb.
Well in that particular case the life gain and lose would cancel each other out
That's not the point I'm trying to make. They might as well have just removed Legendary from cards. There's a reason why cards are Legendary. It just makes sense. Having two in the same game causes a paradox and they both die because their existence at the same time is impossible. {Mirror Gallery} just got way less cool. Shapeshifters don't kill anymore. Just, idk. I'm extremely against this change. I hope I'm not the only one.
Oh I'm against these rules all the way. I find them taking away from the game, they should cancel these rules
Agreed
Quote from: Millionlittlee on May 23, 2013, 03:08:29 AM
Oh I'm against these rules all the way. I find them taking away from the game, they should cancel these rules
They won't, and I'll still play, and the game will feel weird. Still a great game, but that's some sacred ground Wizards. I wish I could karma stalk them lol.
My mono blue commander lost its ability to kill legends now, and now everyone can have all walkers out? Total BS!
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on May 23, 2013, 03:13:41 AM
Quote from: Millionlittlee on May 23, 2013, 03:08:29 AM
Oh I'm against these rules all the way. I find them taking away from the game, they should cancel these rules
They won't, and I'll still play, and the game will feel weird. Still a great game, but that's some sacred ground Wizards. I wish I could karma stalk them lol.
If they had karma for this what do you think it would be. If everyone had one vote. Good or Bad?
Man... This just made some of the cards in my custom set complete rubbish. I seriously hate this rule change. I don't think I can make that any clearer.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on May 23, 2013, 03:29:33 AM
Man... This just made some of the cards in my custom set complete rubbish. I seriously hate this rule change. I don't think I can make that any clearer.
I think you could if you went out side the wotc building and protested these rules. Just saying
Quote from: Millionlittlee on May 23, 2013, 03:31:44 AM
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on May 23, 2013, 03:29:33 AM
Man... This just made some of the cards in my custom set complete rubbish. I seriously hate this rule change. I don't think I can make that any clearer.
I think you could if you went out side the wotc building and protested these rules. Just saying
Too far. Too lazy. Too poor. Maybe if I got free cards out of it. "Here's some Modern Masters, now except the rule change and shut up."
Rules are rules and we all play by the same ones. Adjusting to the rules is part of the strategy of gameplay. These changes don't bother me I will adjust accordingly.
Quite utterly I am both shocked and disappointed in WotC. My next article will probably cover this change. I think the new rules are really just bad decisions. They already dumbed this game down to "HURR DURR ATTACK STRATEGY RULZ EVERY FORMAT". In my opinion, it is quite clear to see this was just another way for them to dumb the game down even more. While it has never applied to me, I do like the new sideboard rule for the kind of innovations it could make. The land rule is neither here nor there for me. It is the legend/planewalker rule I am unhappy about. I wonder how much longer I will continue to play this game. It seems to be a sinking mess right now that only gets worse as the years go on. Every modern deck I have built has taken ridiculous hits for no reason. Because of it, I have been shoehorned into a tier 3 bare bones deck. Standard is just a wasteland of Aggro. Legacy is dying due to the reserved list. And I wont even drop cash on Vintage since it is barely supported anywhere and would be far out of my budget. I guess pauper is still a thing . . .
Uhhh wtf is up withthe land change rule? Did they just completely kill ramp? Are you shitting me?
They want to make it easier for new players to understand. Why do they want to do this? Because they think new players bring in most of the revenue. Why do they think this? Because there pissing off there veterans because they want to make it easier to understand for new players. It's a vicious cycle. You can see it with eggs, they want to kill complicated combos because it turns new players away from the game or something. Honestly, why not make a set speacificly for new players instead of this crap. Make another portal or something. Honestly, there turning the game into a aggro only game...
Or maybe there just trying I get us to complain enough so they can shut this app down, saying its anti mtg
Im officialy quitting magic, all my cards will be up for sale next week. This is absurd
On the other hand {bazaar trader} just became more strategic. You can now build a deck around him
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 08:04:31 AM
On the other hand {bazaar trader} just became more strategic. You can now build a deck around him
WotC made the changes to make bazaar trader better, it all makes sense now
Ok, the planeswalker thing I can sorta understand. New(er) permanent type that threw me for a loop when they first came out. But the legend rule? Seriously? That is canon guys. I'm shocked. I feel betrayed. What's next? Stackable trample? Bs! Seriously reconsidering continued investment in MtG.
Its the land thing that kills it for me. That one literally makes no sense. Ramp is my favorite archetype and now its being neutered. Im only drafting from now on, if that.
I'm not sure if I understand the new land play rule. How would {harrow} work? Or is it effected at all?
That land rule change is bunk! So is the legendary and planeswalker rules change. So you mean you don't have to figure out another strategy if you want to cast a {griselbrand} and your opponent also has one out? Of course not. Heaven forbid, the last thing they want to do is make people think. So stupid!
They should have just had it this way to begin with rather than change something. Then again, maybe too many people were using {clone} to kill, and that was taking over the strategies of tournaments?
Anyway, they got people so used to using clone to kill that...it's like all your life having wings, and then suddenly you have arms. Your going to be clumsy with your hands probably for the first few years, and you'll always be running down the street flapping your arms trying to fly
I'm saying this goes against human nature in a way
Quote from: MisterJH on May 23, 2013, 08:13:23 AM
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 08:04:31 AM
On the other hand {bazaar trader} just became more strategic. You can now build a deck around him
WotC made the changes to make bazaar trader better, it all makes sense now
i don't thunk that they had him in mind when making these rules changes
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 08:21:09 AM
They should have just had it this way to begin with rather than change something. Then again, maybe too many people were using {clone} to kill, and that was taking over the strategies of tournaments?
Anyway, they got people so used to using clone to kill that...it's like all your life having wings, and then suddenly you have arms. Your going to be clumsy with your hands probably for the first few years, and you'll always be running down the street flapping your arms trying to fly
I'm saying this goes against human nature in a way
If they were tired of people using {clone} to kill legendaries, then boo freakin hoo. You know what those players do? Have a tall glass of Man the .love. Up (thanks, Hayes, for that lovely phrase) and find a way to deal with the {clone}s. Thats what Magic is all about. In particular sideboards. It's a game of wits, not a game of "Oh I'll just piss and moan to Wizards until they change something." /rant
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on May 23, 2013, 08:26:52 AM
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 08:21:09 AM
They should have just had it this way to begin with rather than change something. Then again, maybe too many people were using {clone} to kill, and that was taking over the strategies of tournaments?
Anyway, they got people so used to using clone to kill that...it's like all your life having wings, and then suddenly you have arms. Your going to be clumsy with your hands probably for the first few years, and you'll always be running down the street flapping your arms trying to fly
I'm saying this goes against human nature in a way
If they were tired of people using {clone} to kill legendaries, then boo freakin hoo. You know what those players do? Have a tall glass of Man the .love. Up and find a way to deal with the {clone}s. Thats what Magic is all about. In particular sideboards. It's a game of wits, not a game of "Oh I'll just piss and moan to Wizards until they change something." /rant
i wasn't saying that's why. I was asking if that's why. And +1 for this
These are the dumbest rule changes sense damage got off the stack
It's like when they said "mana burn" doesn't work anymore. It just doesn't work the same way anymore... Sad face.
I like it honestly. I hate the land thing but i like all the other ones. Its a change to the game and a risk they took. New players will like rhese changes, many vets wont, but i will. I think people just saw the same thing every time. Maybe they did it for those mirror decks. I dont know, but i dont care. It is still an awesome game to play and too addicting to stop. Maybe that is why they did it. Anyways, we have many removal in standard right now, You dont need like to sacrifice your legendary to kill theirs. I kill your griselbrand and play down a griselbrand. I dont mind it.
I dont understand the land thing?
The land thing is just dumb >:(
I misunderstood the land thing, its not all that bad. My feet are in my mouth, but im still flustered lol
I never once complained about the legendary rule, and the people who side board {Clone} or even a {Geist of Saint Traft} to kill my own Geist. But I like this change. Not only does it benefit me, but now I also have to think about my opponent having his own Geist.
By the time the rules take effect, will {geist of saint Traft} still be in rotation?
I don't think the legend/pw rule dumbs thigs down. Instead of finding a way to remove my pw in the mirror match, all people have to do is play their own. DERP. In the future they will have to actually use removal cards on my legends/pws. The point of {Obzedat, Ghost Council} is that it's hard to remove. The fact that my opponent can remove it simply by playing their own creature at sorcery speed bothers me. Yes, flavor takes a hit. For what? Better gameplay. Legends were never even meant to be removal spells in the first place. Wizards made different types pf cards for different reasons. They made kill spells to kill, counters to counter, and creaturesto beat face. Not creatures to use as killspells. Some creatures can kill others ({Avatar of Woe}), but they did not want to make creatures kill each other in this way: "I play {Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite}. I guess both die, and you can't even respond by bouncing yours! But I don't care cause I was losing! Derpyherp."
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on May 23, 2013, 09:31:49 AM
I don't think the legend/pw rule dumbs thigs down. Instead of finding a way to remove my pw in the mirror match, all people have to do is play their own. DERP. In the future they will have to actually use removal cards on my legends/pws. The point of {Obzedat, Ghost Council} is that it's hard to remove. The fact that my opponent can remove it simply by playing their own creature at sorcery speed bothers me. Yes, flavor takes a hit. For what? Better gameplay. Legends were never even meant to be removal spells in the first place. Wizards made different types pf cards for different reasons. They made kill spells to kill, counters to counter, and creaturesto beat face. Not creatures to use as killspells. Some creatures can kill others ({Avatar of Woe}), but they did not want to make creatures kill each other in this way: "I play {Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite}. I guess both die, and you can't even respond by bouncing yours! But I don't care cause I was losing! Derpyherp."
100% agree!! +1
Maybe wizards could make a card were when a copy of a creature enters the battlefield, all copies of that creature including the one played are sacrificed? What color would that card be? Black? Blue? Both? Green? (Sense green might care about diversity)
{B}{W} Orzhov for sure...
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on May 23, 2013, 09:31:45 AM
By the time the rules take effect, will {geist of saint Traft} still be in rotation?
Yes. He's in rotation till Theros comes out.
Quote from: prayos on May 23, 2013, 10:18:29 AM
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on May 23, 2013, 09:31:45 AM
By the time the rules take effect, will {geist of saint Traft} still be in rotation?
Yes. He's in rotation till Theros comes out.
We'll have about 3 months of Geist and this new ruling.
So, the new land rule prevents the ramp from the new M14 card?
(http://mythicspoiler.com/m14/cards/intothewilds.jpg)
I don't think the new land ruling does anything at all to ramp to be honest. The ruling was made so that people can't abuse the crap out of cards that allow extra land plays. You start with 1 land play, if you play a land you have none left unless something else allows you to play another. {Rampant Growth}, {Farseek}, {Harrow} and this new card are not affected. They are not land plays, they are cards that specifically put lands into play, there's a difference. That is the way I'm interpreting this new ruling and I'm pretty positive that's the way it works. Otherwise they just made a rare that is complete garbage, which would make no sense. Also, that card is awesome!
Quote from: prayos on May 23, 2013, 10:35:52 AM
So, the new land rule prevents the ramp from the new M14 card?
Since it doesn't say "play," I don't think so.
Quote from: FlickerYourOwnIdentity on May 23, 2013, 02:35:24 AM
Quote from: Wally on May 23, 2013, 02:08:34 AM
Extra land plays just got harder to exploit, and the sideboard just got derped. I mean, how hard is it to count your 15 card sideboard and make sure you have them all there.
Exactly, especially about land play. But I still ask the question, what will happen to {primal surge}, after all you can't play the land if you run into it, defeating the purpose of the card.
I think we should send a civilized message to Mark Rosewater about the rule changes, and why they happened?
primal surge puts it into play, you don't actually play the card. It is a huge difference to many effects
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on May 23, 2013, 10:43:53 AM
I don't think the new land ruling does anything at all to ramp to be honest. The ruling was made so that people can't abuse the crap out of cards that allow extra land plays. You start with 1 land play, if you play a land you have none left unless something else allows you to play another. {Rampant Growth}, {Farseek}, {Harrow} and this new card are not affected. They are not land plays, they are cards that specifically put lands into play, there's a difference. That is the way I'm interpreting this new ruling and I'm pretty positive that's the way it works. Otherwise they just made a rare that is complete garbage, which would make no sense. Also, that card is awesome!
Im pretty sure this is correct, i just freaked out at first. This is much more manageable.
So I was right then in the pm to Mr JH?
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 11:03:42 AM
So I was right then in the pm to Mr JH?
Im almost positive yes
The sideboard rule is a great idea. It is a bit more logical and customizable now. Some pretty funky decks are possible now, since they can take gigantic packages out, and exchange them for something else.
The legend rule is a disappointment, I think it promotes aggro strategies (surprise, surprise) too much. Cloning {Emrakul, the Aeons Torn} was a thing, I feel like it's going to degenerate games too much by not being able to clone it. We've gotta see.
Chaining Planeswalkers isn't the worst idea ever? It again promotes aggro far too much, you MUST have creatures attack planeswalkers now - control mirrors will just be a race to cast planeswalkers quicker.
Quote from: Dudecore on May 23, 2013, 11:05:34 AM
The sideboard rule is a great idea. It is a bit more logical and customizable now. Some pretty funky decks are possible now, since they can take gigantic packages out, and exchange them for something else.
The legend rule is a disappointment, I think it promotes aggro strategies (surprise, surprise) too much. Cloning {Emrakul, the Aeons Torn} was a thing, I feel like it's going to degenerate games too much by not being able to clone it. We've gotta see.
Chaining Planeswalkers isn't the worst idea ever? It again promotes aggro far too much, you MUST have creatures attack planeswalkers now - control mirrors will just be a race to cast planeswalkers quicker.
I play Modern Jund so this deck just made my deck disgusting. I'll take it, but I'm not proud of it. Now I can abuse the crap out of Lilly, she just got even more ridiculous.
Oh so {Thrun, the Last Troll} just become the strongest creature in modern?
Quote from: Bman0121 on May 23, 2013, 11:12:27 AM
Oh so {Thrun, the Last Troll} just become the strongest creature in modern?
Not necessarily, but he is awesome.
Get em while they're hot!
And yes, new players make all of the money for Wizards. It certainly is not older players. If that were the case, attendance would not be at an all-time high. They will cater rules towards them, because they're the least likely to understand why the rules are implemented in the first place. They just want to attack with creatures...they don't want to see their 10-drop being taken off the field by a clone. Same reason they absolutely hate Counter magic.
It was only a matter of time before they allow basically no interaction between creatures other then chump block/trade strategies and when to cast them to outnumber an opponent.
Quote from: InfinitiveDivinity on May 23, 2013, 11:10:25 AM
Quote from: Dudecore on May 23, 2013, 11:05:34 AM
The sideboard rule is a great idea. It is a bit more logical and customizable now. Some pretty funky decks are possible now, since they can take gigantic packages out, and exchange them for something else.
The legend rule is a disappointment, I think it promotes aggro strategies (surprise, surprise) too much. Cloning {Emrakul, the Aeons Torn} was a thing, I feel like it's going to degenerate games too much by not being able to clone it. We've gotta see.
Chaining Planeswalkers isn't the worst idea ever? It again promotes aggro far too much, you MUST have creatures attack planeswalkers now - control mirrors will just be a race to cast planeswalkers quicker.
I play Modern Jund so this deck just made my deck disgusting. I'll take it, but I'm not proud of it. Now I can abuse the crap out of Lilly, she just got even more disgusting.
killing your own Lilly just for a -2 effect won't be that effective many times. You want your opponent to have trouble removing her to then play another. The legend rule might make some cards get banned in some formats, though, such as the spaghetti monster (emrakul)
Quote from: Dudecore on May 23, 2013, 11:15:57 AM
And yes, new players make all of the money for Wizards. It certainly is not older players. If that were the case, attendance would not be at an all-time high. They will cater rules towards them, because they're the least likely to understand why the rules are implemented in the first place. They just want to attack with creatures...they don't want to see their 10-drop being taken off the field by a clone. Same reason they absolutely hate Counter magic.
It was only a matter of time before they allow basically no interaction between creatures other then chump block/trade strategies and when to cast them to outnumber an opponent.
Truly. I play magic because it tests the mind, its turning into Call of Duty rather than Starcraft, if i could make such a comparison. Its a societal thing as well as a new player thing. Newer players can learn the rules quickly as i did, but they dont want to put time and money just so they have to THINK, god forbid! Theyd much rather get some shiny cards with big #s on them and do a bunch of damage. I think in 2-3 blocks Magic as it was meant to be played will be dead. Im frustrated.
Or that eventually they stop focusing on new players and cater to veteran players
Overall the changes don't bother me except it further limits removal of ridiculously overpowered creatures... {Emrakul, the Aeons Torn} should never have been printed and needs to be banned.
A game created as a math exercise being simplified because people can't count to 14, or even 61, is dumb. I like the sb changes for the possibilities though.
If they wanted to change the legends rule, I think they should keep it lore wise. I would suggest this:
You can't play a legend with the same name as a legend already on the field (you can't use a unique creature more than once)
If a legend with the same name as a legend already on the field would be put there from anywhere, the legend on the field goes to the graveyard as the new legend enters (they may change sides because of effects, can't they?)
If more than one legend with the same name would be put on the field at the same moment, they all go to the graveyard instead
If a token or card with another name than a legen copies it, it won't copy the legendary type. It's name will be the same as the creature for all effects that care, but the legend rule doesn't apply because it isn't a legendary type permanent (if someone clones you, there WILL be two of you, right?) (this one would probably be broken because of gameplay. It could be, instead: no effect can copy a legendary type permanent)
Oh fateful hour...why did you destroy mana burn?
I'm glad mana burn is gone. It never made any sense anyway, it was too easy to play around. It was just something tacked onto punish people using rituals, but never seemed to do that either. It was a mere annoyance.
Quote from: Dudecore on May 23, 2013, 12:34:59 PM
I'm glad mana burn is gone. It never made any sense anyway, it was too easy to play around. It was just something tacked onto punish people using rituals, but never seemed to do that either. It was a mere annoyance.
geting rid of mana burn didnt affect my playing at all though. Because I just used it up immedeatly anyway. I think it was to prevent people from stockpiling mana so they couldn't play a 12 CMC spell with only 2 lands or something
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 12:38:02 PM
Quote from: Dudecore on May 23, 2013, 12:34:59 PM
I'm glad mana burn is gone. It never made any sense anyway, it was too easy to play around. It was just something tacked onto punish people using rituals, but never seemed to do that either. It was a mere annoyance.
geting rid of mana burn didnt affect my playing at all though. Because I just used it up immedeatly anyway. I think it was to prevent people from stockpiling mana so they couldn't play a 12 CMC spell with only 2 lands or something
You lost me with stockpiling mana and playing a 12 CMC off two lands. What exactly do you mean?
I liked mana burn. It made you calculate exactly what you wanted to do and punished you for not thinking.
It removes an element of interactionfrom the game that I will surely miss and I don't even have to look at my opponents board to play anymore
So I have a question about new rule. If I play {Primeval Titan} and get two lands, then when he dies both of those lands are destroyed also?
Quote from: Agarrita80 on May 23, 2013, 01:39:07 PM
So I have a question about new rule. If I play {Primeval Titan} and get two lands, then when he dies both of those lands are destroyed also?
No, they were put into play through the Titan. He didn't allow you an extra 2 land drops, he tutored for them. They would stay.
Quote from: Agarrita80 on May 23, 2013, 01:39:07 PM
So I have a question about new rule. If I play {Primeval Titan} and get two lands, then when he dies both of those lands are destroyed also?
No sir. They stay.
I just realized that you can seriously be a jerk with the new legendary rule, {Act of Treason} is now a kill spell.
Quote from: Crapshooter on May 23, 2013, 02:01:28 PM
I just realized that you can seriously be a jerk with the new legendary rule, {Act of Treason} is now a kill spell.
Lol, steal theirs and then cast your own? During the 2nd Main Phase after attacking.
I hate the legend rule but LOVE the mulligan rule.
Or if their both out steal and sac.
Question, if you control a legend and your opponent controls the same, when does the state based action of choosing one to keep happen when you play {act of treason}?
I'm assuming its the moment it is considered "under your control"?
When a player recieves priority (after act of treason resolves).
Thx CV! I'd +1 you but I heard you like your karma where it is...
;)
Lets say at the end of your turn you tap 4 lands. You have four in your mana pool. Then on the next turn you haven't used it yet and tap 5 lands. You now have 9 in your mana pool. You don't use that and tap 6 lands next turn, you now have 15 in your mana pool.
That is what I mean by stockpiling mana
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 02:44:18 PM
Lets say at the end of your turn you tap 4 lands. You have four in your mana pool. Then on the next turn you haven't used it yet and tap 5 lands. You now have 9 in your mana pool. You don't use that and tap 6 lands next turn, you now have 15 in your mana pool.
That is what I mean by stockpiling mana
Unless youre playing bizarre house rules, that wouldn't work even if mana burn was around. Mana pools empty after each step.
Unless you have {Omnath} on the field...
I had said mana burn was to prevent that from the beginning
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 03:02:37 PM
I had said mana burn was to prevent that from the beginning
What theyre saying is that coulnt happen. Mana always emptied anyways, whether is dealt damage or not youd have 0
Mana at the begininning of each step.
Quote from: MisterJH on May 23, 2013, 03:04:20 PM
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 03:02:37 PM
I had said mana burn was to prevent that from the beginning
What theyre saying is that coulnt happen. Mana always emptied anyways, whether is dealt damage or not youd have 0
Mana at the begininning of each step.
i know it couldn't have happened...read my original post one page back
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 03:02:37 PM
I had said mana burn was to prevent that from the beginning
How would it prevent that if your mana pool has always emptied at the end of your turn ever since the game was created? Mana has never been able to carry over between turns unless you have something like the aforementioned {Omnath, Locus of Mana}.
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on May 23, 2013, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 03:02:37 PM
I had said mana burn was to prevent that from the beginning
How would it prevent that if your mana pool has always emptied at the end of your turn ever since the game was created? Mana has never been able to carry over between turns unless you have something like the aforementioned {Omnath, Locus of Mana}.
i meant those rules prevented that from happening. I never said it ever existed in the game (save for a few cards) I'm saying there was rules from the beginning that prevented it from crossing people's minds. Well most people's
I'm not fond of the new legendary rule. I love that one gets to stay when you control more than one, but both players being allowed to have it on the field seems weird to me. Then again, you always have been able to have {Teysa, Orzhov Scion} and {Teysa, Envoy of Ghosts} on the field, so honestly guys, how much flavor are we losing?
Everything else seems perfectly fine. Ramp still works and all. You just can't bounce and abuse cards like {Oracle of Mul Daya} anymore, which makes more sense to me.
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 03:11:12 PM
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on May 23, 2013, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: Birdbrain on May 23, 2013, 03:02:37 PM
I had said mana burn was to prevent that from the beginning
How would it prevent that if your mana pool has always emptied at the end of your turn ever since the game was created? Mana has never been able to carry over between turns unless you have something like the aforementioned {Omnath, Locus of Mana}.
i meant those rules prevented that from happening. I never said it ever existed in the game (save for a few cards) I'm saying there was rules from the beginning that prevented it from crossing people's minds. Well most people's
Right... Lol
Part of me says "Hey this is cool" and the other part of me says ".love. you WoTC, this is ridiculous." I just don't know what to do with myself now 😖
Quote from: FlickerYourOwnIdentity on May 23, 2013, 02:35:24 AM
Quote from: Wally on May 23, 2013, 02:08:34 AM
Extra land plays just got harder to exploit, and the sideboard just got derped. I mean, how hard is it to count your 15 card sideboard and make sure you have them all there.
Exactly, especially about land play. But I still ask the question, what will happen to {primal surge}, after all you can't play the land if you run into it, defeating the purpose of the card.
I think we should send a civilized message to Mark Rosewater about the rule changes, and why they happened?
It still works. You're putting onto the battlefield, not playing it.
Quote from: Bozo_Law on May 23, 2013, 02:31:27 PM
I hate the legend rule but LOVE the mulligan rule.
I didn't see a mulligan rule?
And one more thing is that this shouldn't be about which rule was better. That isn't whats important. It happened. Its done with. And none of what we say will change it. But what matters is how we adjust our play to deal with the game. Strategy exists in a strategy game. This rule doesnt take that way. When you examine a card like phantasmal image you shouldn't have to think "Ok its a creature. It can be ANY creature. But it can also be a Doom Blade." Say that about Jace. "Ok its a planeswalker. It brainstorms, it bounces dudes, and oh yeah it also kills my opponents jaces or renders cards in their hand useless for no reason other than its name."
Edit: Clicked the wrong button. Sorry about that.
DG
Omg wizards now
People can't kill
Jace the mind sculptor with jace beleran this is stupid?
I feal like these Rules are unneeded
Like the sideboard rule, hate land rule, Legend rule I like, PW I dont
Quote from: All-Mana Mania on May 23, 2013, 06:03:22 PM
And one more thing is that this shouldn't be about which rule was better. That isn't whats important. It happened. Its done with. And none of what we say will change it. But what matters is how we adjust our play to deal with the game. Strategy exists in a strategy game. This rule doesnt take that way. When you examine a card like phantasmal image you shouldn't have to think "Ok its a creature. It can be ANY creature. But it can also be a Doom Blade." Say that about Jace. "Ok its a planeswalker. It brainstorms, it bounces dudes, and oh yeah it also kills my opponents jaces or renders cards in their hand useless for no reason other than its name."
Edit: Clicked the wrong button. Sorry about that.
DG
While some of what you say is correct, the fact is it DOES matter. We are the consumers and if we are unhappy, then we have the right to say so. I take it you are newer to the game yes? Take it from somebody who has played since the first Legend rule, since damage went on the stack, and who played in the days of mana burn. This game IS getting more and more simple as the years pass. Cryhard WotC fanboys would love to argue with me, but the fact remains that Magic is becoming a shell of its former self. You should not have to break the game down this much to people. If people just quit whining and started using there heads, then we would be far better off right now.
Wizards has even ruined DnD! From what my tabletop friends say, 4th edition sucks. I hate that they're starting to dumb Magic down. I blame it on people's decreasing attention spans and constantly wanting to be told how things are. Everything is NOW NOW NOW. Heaven forbid you actually have to read something for yourself and make sense of it.
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on May 23, 2013, 06:45:31 PM
Wizards has even ruined DnD! From what my tabletop friends say, 4th edition sucks. I hate that they're starting to dumb Magic down. I blame it on people's decreasing attention spans and constantly wanting to be told how things are. Everything is NOW NOW NOW. Heaven forbid you actually have to read something for yourself and make sense of it.
I dont see how they can only cater to the ignorant or slow/lazy... Wtf this was THE GAME for the people with intelligence, do they not care whatsoever about anyone else? Are they really so greedy and selfish? Veterans have no reason to play, and new players are just wasting there time playing a more expensive version of YuGiOh or freakin Pokemon. Its crazy, it makes me want to quit every day. However its just to much entertainment to try and make this game fun still. I hate what this game has done to me lol.
Since I am younger, what was mana burn?
Quote from: AgrusKos on May 23, 2013, 07:02:37 PM
Since I am younger, what was mana burn?
If you had mana in your manapool at the end of a phase, you would take one damage for each mana that you did not spend. If you were even average at the game it almost never mattered since most people could manage their resources well enough that it almost never happened.
Quote from: Death Gaara on May 23, 2013, 07:05:15 PM
Quote from: AgrusKos on May 23, 2013, 07:02:37 PM
Since I am younger, what was mana burn?
If you had mana in your manapool at the end of a phase, you would take one damage for each mana that you did not spend. If you were even average at the game it almost never mattered since most people could manage their resources well enough that it almost never happened.
Thanks!
Quote from: AgrusKos on May 23, 2013, 07:07:46 PM
Quote from: Death Gaara on May 23, 2013, 07:05:15 PM
Quote from: AgrusKos on May 23, 2013, 07:02:37 PM
Since I am younger, what was mana burn?
If you had mana in your manapool at the end of a phase, you would take one damage for each mana that you did not spend. If you were even average at the game it almost never mattered since most people could manage their resources well enough that it almost never happened.
Thanks!
Sure, no problem.
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on May 23, 2013, 06:45:31 PM
Wizards has even ruined DnD! From what my tabletop friends say, 4th edition sucks. I hate that they're starting to dumb Magic down. I blame it on people's decreasing attention spans and constantly wanting to be told how things are. Everything is NOW NOW NOW. Heaven forbid you actually have to read something for yourself and make sense of it.
Dnd after 2nd edition sucked.
Quote from: Rass on May 23, 2013, 07:55:09 PM
Quote from: Mikefrompluto on May 23, 2013, 06:45:31 PM
Wizards has even ruined DnD! From what my tabletop friends say, 4th edition sucks. I hate that they're starting to dumb Magic down. I blame it on people's decreasing attention spans and constantly wanting to be told how things are. Everything is NOW NOW NOW. Heaven forbid you actually have to read something for yourself and make sense of it.
Dnd after 2nd edition sucked.
That's what I hear. Do you listen to Nerd Poker by any chance?
Oh. And rules changes can be revoked. I'm sure it won't happen before they are rolled out, but will possibly change after a certain amount of time. The trigger on the stack/ missed trigger one has changes many times I believe.
Not bothering to read the full thread but I have one note to share on the stupid rule change.
This probably means Theros will be a heavy legendary set.
Quote from: Kaleo42 on May 23, 2013, 11:26:25 PM
Not bothering to read the full thread but I have one note to share on the stupid rule change.
This probably means Theros will be a heavy legendary set.
Wait... It is all piecing together. Gods, bew legendary rule, THEROS!!!! Lol +1 kaleo for using your "context clues" lol
I have no idea why people hate the land rule. It simply rectifies the rule to be used the way most people already did anyway.
I understand why they don't want clones and such to be kill spells as well, but dislike the rule. You aren't supposed to have 2 equal cards in play if they have the legend type, taking that away makes your deck much more of a controlled environment, as much as the deimplementation of control strategies. This is dumbing the game down so much that you need not care about what your opponents permanents are, what resources he has, deck color, mana costs nor even cards in hand of your opponent if you are playing standard. It is just you, your game and his dmg output next turn. That is it.
I disapprove of taking away the need for board awareness
Seriously its crazy. Itd make much more sense to have a rule stating if two or more of the same legendary CARD are out, both die. For example, {clone} is NOT {emrakul, the aeons torn}, but a clone. This would possible because of what a clone IS. Therefore both could coexist. Yet playing your own emmy would be impossible, as only one of the actual legendary may exist as itself, and both should die. My logic is that if you have a baseball, then you make a baseball out of playdoh, its still playdoh. If you have a legendary, and clone a legendary, well the clone is just a mimicing mold. However tokens actually produce a card and would therefore kill a copied(as a token) legendary. Anyone follow? Sorry its been a long day im exhausted
I think I'm following but if you clone it and keep both then how is that even close to fair?
The new rules hurt my head!!
Quote from: MisterJH on May 24, 2013, 12:23:59 AM
Seriously its crazy. Itd make much more sense to have a rule stating if two or more of the same legendary CARD are out, both die. For example, {clone} is NOT {emrakul, the aeons torn}, but a clone. This would possible because of what a clone IS. Therefore both could coexist. Yet playing your own emmy would be impossible, as only one of the actual legendary may exist as itself, and both should die. My logic is that if you have a baseball, then you make a baseball out of playdoh, its still playdoh. If you have a legendary, and clone a legendary, well the clone is just a mimicing mold. However tokens actually produce a card and would therefore kill a copied(as a token) legendary. Anyone follow? Sorry its been a long day im exhausted
Earlier in this thread I gave a similar proposition to what they could have done
Honestly this news is really irritating me. 100% of it is unnecessary. Some of it I just plain hate.
Legendary/PW rule - I absolutely hate this. It takes away from what makes legendary creatures so special, and the challenges and risks involved with playing them. Not to mention the flavor. There was nothing wrong with the legend rule at all, and I don't understand the point of this change.
Sideboard rule - I feel like this is unnecessary. But I don't have any strong feelings about it. I can at least understand the mentality of "mistakes happen when side boarding, and this silly adjustment will prevent match losses from when it happens." So fine.
Indestructible becoming a keyword - Also unnecessary, but at least I can understand it. Fine.
Additional land play rule change - Not only unnecessary, but this kind of rule discourages Johnny-type players like me from finding and using those little loopholes that make us happy, like {Cloudshift}ing that {Oracle of Mul Daya} to play an extra plains or two from our hands. Is that such a big deal that you need to change the rules of the entire game framework into a new, less intuitive, poorly worded and confusing mess over it?
You really think the new land rule is less intuitive than how it is now?
The way it is now, if you have one effect allowing to play one extra land, you intuitively would think you can play 1 usual land play + one additional land play. Now, if you have the oracle in play, you can play one land, take him to hand, play a second land when no effect allows you to do it, play the oracle again and then proceed to a third land when you supposedly are allowed only one more play per turn.
Now, it just checks how many land drops you are allowed at the moment you play.
I dislike the damage to combos, though. {Deadeye Navigator} + {Oracle of Mul Daya} + {Caged Sun} and the likes.
I do not dislike losing simple card interaction like cloud shift + oracle of mul daya, only combo decks
If WOTC is attempting to playcate to new players, then why not change the legend rule for standard only? If they are that concerned, then make that game style like an "entry" level game type and leave the other types alone??
Just a thought.
Quote from: Stoneco1d869 on May 25, 2013, 01:18:09 AM
If WOTC is attempting to playcate to new players, then why not change the legend rule for standard only? If they are that concerned, then make that game style like an "entry" level game type and leave the other types alone??
Just a thought.
Cause most new players are casual, not format-oriented
Quote from: Mentonin on May 25, 2013, 08:00:01 AM
Quote from: Stoneco1d869 on May 25, 2013, 01:18:09 AM
If WOTC is attempting to playcate to new players, then why not change the legend rule for standard only? If they are that concerned, then make that game style like an "entry" level game type and leave the other types alone??
Just a thought.
Cause most new players are casual, not format-oriented
Same idea but for casual then. But I think a lot of the money comes from standard, which unless you are competitive, probably is the home of newer players.
I just think it is going to take time to adapt to the new rules.
Also, I think the legend rule is meant for competitive purposes, to tone down the usability of copying legendaries
Yea, i think it is for more thinking honestly, because you could have wasted a clone for a dangerous legendary, but now you have to use a kill spell for it.
It makes {Pacifism} and the likes less useful on legendaries, though
Yea, that can be a problem
Quote from: Mentonin on May 25, 2013, 09:31:58 AM
It makes {Pacifism} and the likes less useful on legendaries, though
How so?
They can play another legendary of the same name and keep it, sac the {pacifism}d one
Quote from: KangaRod on May 27, 2013, 03:42:48 AM
Settle down guys, the legendary rule isn't breaking the game. It makes sense, and isn't that big of a deal. I think we clearly known Theros is going to be a legs set set like Kamigawa though.
I can't believe it took them this long to change the sideboard rule. It makes much more sense.
I don't think the landrule change is going to change hardly anything
This. Personally, when I'm playing legacy, and I drop my {Jace, the Mind Sculptor} and my opponent kills it off with {Jace Beleren}, I'm pissed. I actually like the new legendary and pw rules changes. It makes you have to actually WORK to kill things. Not just cast {Clone} to kill my {Olivia Voldaren}.
I like the sideboard rule, since my sideboard is only eight cards, and I usually don't want to put them all in, even though I can't put them in. The planeswalker rule... I like no destroying them if they're on opposite sides, but if they're controlled by one player they should both die. Same with legendary rule. Otherwise, I don't care.
Quote from: KangaRod on May 27, 2013, 03:42:48 AM
Settle down guys, the legendary rule isn't breaking the game. It makes sense, and isn't that big of a deal. I think we clearly known Theros is going to be a legs set set like Kamigawa though.
I can't believe it took them this long to change the sideboard rule. It makes much more sense.
I don't think the landrule change is going to change hardly anything
I mostly agree with you, but can you please explain to me how the legendary rule makes sense?
What is the land rule i dont understand it?
It actually makes clone a little more stratigic card, you can actually copy there legendary to counterbalance the damage or whatever. Like if your opponent casts {Olivia Voldaren} and you copy it, you can gain control of their olivia and then sac. Their olivia. Or obzedat. Copy it and then it would couterbalance the effect. Also griselbrand, rakdos, etc. :)
Copy emrakul then {fog}!!!
Quote from: Bman0121 on May 27, 2013, 03:09:08 PM
What is the land rule i dont understand it?
It just says the rules now follow logic.
If you are allowed to play one more land than normal this turn and you have already played two lands then no more lands can be played. The old way says if your allowed to play one more land than normal and then remove the source of that ability and return it then you can play 3 lands in one turn.
Quote from: Kagain123 on May 27, 2013, 09:08:10 AM
(snip)
This. Personally, when I'm playing legacy, and I drop my {Jace, the Mind Sculptor} and my opponent kills it off with {Jace Beleren}, I'm pissed. I actually like the new legendary and pw rules changes. It makes you have to actually WORK to kill things. Not just cast {Clone} to kill my {Olivia Voldaren}.
I understand what you're saying, but I'd rather they fixed it by reverting to the old rule - if a legend (or PW) is in play, another can't be played. This way one still has to work to kill the card and the uniqueness of it remains intact. The new rule removes what makes legends special.
Well my thought is, how will they get rid of the land when your Oracle of Mul Daya is destroyed after you played a second land. You would also have to specify which land was played in which slot, which is annoying.
My thing with the legend rule is, some of the legendaries, the only way to deal with them was that legend rule. That is my thing.
Quote from: FlickerYourOwnIdentity on May 28, 2013, 02:05:04 AM
Well my thought is, how will they get rid of the land when your Oracle of Mul Daya is destroyed after you played a second land. You would also have to specify which land was played in which slot, which is annoying.
My thing with the legend rule is, some of the legendaries, the only way to deal with them was that legend rule. That is my thing.
If the oracle dies you dont have to sac a land.
Quote from: FlickerYourOwnIdentity on May 28, 2013, 02:05:04 AM
Well my thought is, how will they get rid of the land when your Oracle of Mul Daya is destroyed after you played a second land. You would also have to specify which land was played in which slot, which is annoying.
My thing with the legend rule is, some of the legendaries, the only way to deal with them was that legend rule. That is my thing.
If you already played the land, you already did it and it doesn't matter if the effect which let you do it ends this turn. As per "which slot it goes into", actually this is the old rule, when you had to specify which effect you were using to play the land. Now you just count how many lands you are allowed this turn and compare to how many you already played
Quote from: Kaleo42 on May 27, 2013, 04:00:13 PM
Quote from: Bman0121 on May 27, 2013, 03:09:08 PM
What is the land rule i dont understand it?
It just says the rules now follow logic.
If you are allowed to play one more land than normal this turn and you have already played two lands then no more lands can be played. The old way says if your allowed to play one more land than normal and then remove the source of that ability and return it then you can play 3 lands in one turn.
so this just totally messes up {fastbond}?
Quote from: Iandtormentor on May 28, 2013, 07:43:40 AM
Quote from: Kaleo42 on May 27, 2013, 04:00:13 PM
Quote from: Bman0121 on May 27, 2013, 03:09:08 PM
What is the land rule i dont understand it?
It just says the rules now follow logic.
If you are allowed to play one more land than normal this turn and you have already played two lands then no more lands can be played. The old way says if your allowed to play one more land than normal and then remove the source of that ability and return it then you can play 3 lands in one turn.
so this just totally messes up {fastbond}?
Nope that functions the same. They messed up {oracle of mul daya} + {deadeye navigator}.