I don't know wether to be happy or sad, {Second Sunrise} is being banned! Yes, simply because of eggs.
Link?
I'm glad to see it, but I honestly don't think it was reasonable. Yes, eggs was a boring deck to face. Yes, games took a very long time. Yes, I hate eggs and have whined about it many tines on here. No, eggs was not a definite win. No, eggs was not impossible to beat.
I am happy about this, but I kinda see it as a means of "out with the old, in with the new." Eggs got pretty popular in recent times, and it just seems like WotC wanted something new in modern and it was just forced upon modern players by removing a Jund powerhouse, shutting down storm, and now shutting down eggs. What's next? Ban {Vendillion Clique}/{Cryptic Command}/{Snapcaster Mage}/{Threads of Disloyalty}/{Mana Leak}/{Island}? Yes, creativity in decks is a good thing, but modern is seeming to get hit with the ban hammer pretty easily...
I think Wizards is trying to make Modern a constantly evolving format. Sure it's restricted, but it's way better than Standard. Every so gle card in Standard is legal in Modern, and there are soooo many cards legal in Modern, people just need to get creative. So another net deck died, and?...
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/244b2
Here's the link
I don't think this was a good move. Modern is just full of good stuff decks now. Jam the most powerful spells into 1 deck and have fun fighting with stacks of money.
And to Silents point, yes {Cryptic Command} will be banned at some point. It disrupts too many decks and that isn't "fun". It is EVERYTHING people hate about control. Tempo, counters, card advantage?
There is nothing wrong with hating out Eggs, it is a natural part of every evolving format. My big problem with Modern is that, they do not let it evolve. Eggs is one of the first "Modern" decks, it was a deck that format could truly call it's own. Everything else is a neutered Legacy deck or a former Standard deck. It stinks they ruined one of the faces of the format, and something that was drumming up a ton of interest in the format.
What is exciting about BUG Delver?
My question is why did {Regrowth} get restricted in vintage??!?
Maybe they're just trying to make tron the biggest threat at PTs and stuff :P.
That's why I love modern, there's a whole lot to choose from. But these decks get huge and powerful, and then just get shut down. Yeah, it's just another dead netdeck, but how much are they gonna ban before modern is just slightly extended standard? I know that sounds ludicrous, but honestly, is banning something good the way to go? Why not ban some of the standard powerhouses then? Tired of seeing {Thragtusk}? Ban it!
Yes, standard rotates and we have to deal with the "Don't worry, {Thragtusk}'ll rotate soon enough.". I don't understand why that mentality can't be used in modern. The top players in big events are good at playing different things. Over time, they'll come up with new and inventive ways to use things. Just because eggs is big now doesn't mean it would have been later on down the road.
Tl;dr
....it's a rant. I probably wouldn't read it if I wasn't very interested either :P
Quote from: FlickerYourOwnIdentity on April 22, 2013, 01:02:17 AM
My question is why did {Regrowth} get restricted in vintage??!?
It was on the first restricted list I think. {Black Lotus}, {Time Walk}, {name anything else restricted} can cheaply become reusable if you were allowed multiple {Regrowth}. I don't play Vintage, but it seems like a bit of a mistake. 5 {Ancestral Recall} seems mighty scary if you can get that ball rolling. 9 with {Snapcaster Mage}.
Woah I am pretty sure either dudecore or gorzo called the banning of an eggs component. Sorry can't remember which, but whoever you are, good job! Haha
Man that's sad...eggs was such a neat deck. And really, it's not that hard to beat post board. Why...
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on April 22, 2013, 01:26:25 AM
Woah I am pretty sure either dudecore or gorzo called the banning of an eggs component. Sorry can't remember which, but whoever you are, good job! Haha
Man that's sad...eggs was such a neat deck. And really, it's not that hard to beat post board. Why...
Death Gaara did. I knew it was gonna happen too. It's a shame they did it to a deck that was going to be hated away anyway, it couldn't respond post-board to anyone. It just makes modern another boring format: good stuff, pod or Tron. Pick your. Wizards has REALLY whiffed on their promises for Modern format.
It's too expensive (staples are not being printed quickly enough), too restricted, too uninteresting to break into. It completely fails as an eternal format.
Article explains, took too long on extra turns.
Quote from: Crapshooter on April 22, 2013, 01:31:18 AM
Article explains, took too long on extra turns.
Wow I just read the article and that has got to be the lamest reason to ban a card, ever. Not one mention of the egg deck's potency, just that it takes too long. Well .love. that.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on April 22, 2013, 01:38:58 AM
Quote from: Crapshooter on April 22, 2013, 01:31:18 AM
Article explains, took too long on extra turns.
Wow I just read the article and that has got to be the lamest reason to ban a card, ever. Not one mention of the egg deck's potency, just that it takes too long. Well .love. that.
Its a sign of the times, really. Wizards' banning of {second sunrise} perfectly reflects today's society. We want everything instantly. No waiting. OF COURSE they would ban the key component to a deck that takes 15 minute turns. Second sunrise is the equivalent to dial-up. Out with the old, in with he new.
Seriously, modern's banned list is ridiculous.
Quote from: Crapshooter on April 22, 2013, 01:31:18 AM
Article explains, took too long on extra turns.
I can understand it - but it's a constant thing with the format. The format seems so narrow. The second anything becomes good, it dominates and gets banned. Faeries, Jund, Storm (did it even get a chance?) now Eggs. It seems like it's too easy for any one deck to dominate, because the answers aren't strong.
When is the last time they touched Legacy? {Force of Will} keeps everyone in line, and you almost always see different decks on top. Modern on the other hand is relegated to playing {Birthing Pod} decks (rehashed from Standard), Tron (watered down from Legacy) or 3-color AllOfTheGoodStuff.
Everyone grab your favorite decks and head down to the world famous "Watch {Deathrite Shaman} ping you forever" tournament! Eggs was a cool deck, not fun to play against, not fun to watch, not fun to think about, not fun to watch your opponent like a hawk - waiting for them to screw up the combo (which was most people). It was just Modern's contribution to Magic. A way to set itself apart from other formats. Modern wasn't going to be known as "the format that Eggs is the only good deck", it was being hated on and would be beaten back into submission.
Quote from: Dudecore on April 22, 2013, 01:31:04 AM
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on April 22, 2013, 01:26:25 AM
Woah I am pretty sure either dudecore or gorzo called the banning of an eggs component. Sorry can't remember which, but whoever you are, good job! Haha
Man that's sad...eggs was such a neat deck. And really, it's not that hard to beat post board. Why...
Death Gaara did. I knew it was gonna happen too. It's a shame they did it to a deck that was going to be hated away anyway, it couldn't respond post-board to anyone. It just makes modern another boring format: good stuff, pod or Tron. Pick your. Wizards has REALLY whiffed on their promises for Modern format.
It's too expensive (staples are not being printed quickly enough), too restricted, too uninteresting to break into. It completely fails as an eternal format.
Your point is well taken, Dudecore but modern is my favorite format (though edh is an ever closer second). I found modern exciting to break into since it offers great variety but with limitations. I have found that these limitations encourage experimentation because i am fequired to find work-arounds for the banned cards.
Kind of saw the writing on the wall, though the official reasoning may not have been the best (and card choice for that matter, I would have banned {Reshape}). Ultimately the deck was being quite consistant at going off before turn 4.
While many people argue that a proper sideboard can hate out eggs, my experience has been even with all of my hate sided in, it didn't mean much when they dropped {Leyline of Sanctity} to prevent hand disruption, {Slaughter Games}, and targeted graveyard hate such as {Rakdos Charm}. {Stony Silence} or {Relic of Progenitus}? Pray they don't have {Echoing Truth} or another sunrise or {Twincast}.
In the end, the deck is set slightly behind where it was before M2013, and the format is not going to have some cataclysmic end because of the banning. I still am very happy with Modern, though I do hope that they decide to unban a few cards, to help alleviate the stigma of constant bannings.
They banned the wrong card banning {Second Sunrise} pretty much destroys the deck we still have {Faith's Reward} but its not as good they should have banned {Reshape} that way eggs can still be a deck but make it a turn ar 2 slower
Quote from: Bman0121 on April 22, 2013, 08:31:32 AM
They banned the wrong card banning {Second Sunrise} pretty much destroys the deck we still have {Faith's Reward} but its not as good they should have banned {Reshape} that way eggs can still be a deck but make it a turn ar 2 slower
Agreed, {Reshape} into {Lotus Bloom} to get around suspend was the main reason it could go off so soon.
Maybe in the future (like during the third set of theros) they can unban some of the decks they banned, and gradually unban decks with every set. That they banned for no reason. Or they could just freaking print awnsers for those decks that could be staple cards and suddenly a good chunk of people stop playing because they don't want to have to think about how to deal with it. Seriously, print a clear awnser first before banning something.
Maybe they have printed awnsers to the decks, but nobody ran them because the top players wernt running them. Maybe they should make it a requirement that the top five players have to run something different every time they play? That will cause them to make different decks, and thus cause the format to freaking evolve and be diverse
Or better still they could have printed something that's like {second sunrise} yet completely different so eggs suddenly diversify's and then print more staples for eggs than can be put in a deck, and then suddenly eggs diversify's even more
MaRo is wrong, well at least partly wrong. Restrictions don't always breed creativity. The reason all eggs decks seemed fairly the same was there wasn't enough eggs staples to go around. Why not freaking diversify eggs while its banned. Then unbann {second sunrise}
Edit: and may I add I realy don't like the idea of a deck that takes so long to finish the game. And am absolutely relived I never got to play against it
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 09:49:29 AM
Maybe they should make it a requirement that the top five players have to run something different every time they play? That will cause them to make different decks, and thus cause the format to freaking evolve and be diverse
First rule of brainwashing: make them think it's their idea. Not saying Wizards is brainwashing people, but there's no way that would fly. The easiest way for them to make people play something different is to ban certain cards and make people figure something else out on their own. Outright telling people what they HAVE to play would be the death of the Pro Tour.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on April 22, 2013, 01:26:25 AM
Woah I am pretty sure either dudecore or gorzo called the banning of an eggs component. Sorry can't remember which, but whoever you are, good job! Haha
Man that's sad...eggs was such a neat deck. And really, it's not that hard to beat post board. Why...
Actually I called it earlier as well. I even went as far as to say sell your eggs decks while you had the chances. Too bad I could not sell mine fast enough.
EDIT: This just proves my theories from earlier last week. Kudos to the newer players who whined at WotC until they gave them their way. You have killed another deck in Modern. Modern was already a joke of a format, but now it is just bone dry and stupid. I think I am done investing in Modern (Save fetches and shocks). I was going to build a variant of RUG Scapeshift, but they are just going to ban Cryptic Command next. So why even bother? No point in spending $130 on counterspells that are only going to be good for a little while longer. My only question is why is WotC having so much trouble managing this format? The concept was simple, the idea was easy, and the support could have been there. But instead they have went around in circles. Competitive Magic as a whole is really falling apart when you think about it. See if this makes any sense
Standard- Dominated by creatures, creatures, and more creatures.
Modern- Just Goodstuff.deks all day long. Nothing remotely creative. They just take other decks that were good and water them down into a new mess.
Legacy- True diversity. Too bad it is going to cost you a couple of zeros. The reserved list kills this format for those who have not been playing as long.
Vintage- WotC only holds one tourney a year for this. Same problem as Legacy except add several more zeros for the Power 9.
At least we still have these
EDH- Fun will ensue.
Pauper- Mainly budget, still lots of fun.
Limited- I enjoy it, always diverse. Is just expensive.
Notice anything about the above list? Only limited is an FNM format. EDH and Pauper are not official FNM formats. Standard gets more and more expensive, Modern is out of hand, and Legacy is out of reach for most. Are these really smart business decisions? I think not, but those who get everything handed to them or have no other hobbies will continue to sink money into this game. I really need to rethink my stance on competitive Magic. While I still do want to compete, I do not think I want to contend with all of this. Modern had restored some of my faith in how WotC was going to help people. Turns out all they did was reprint shocklands not to get more into print. They have convinced me of that. They only put them in RtR to sell a million packs.
Maybe there just trying to help us discover the "sleeping giants" they sow in each set. They've probably sown more than we know
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 01:31:05 PM
Maybe there just trying to help us discover the "sleeping giants" they sow in each set. They've probably sown more than we know
Perhaps. But I am more inclined to think that they just shot themselves in the foot again. Like I stated earlier, WotC does not care about the players. They are a business and their prime motivation is money. Where does the money come from? Newer players who have just been getting into the game and do not want to deal with the idea of powerful spells, combos, or complex interactions. Most of the people that started this game when it came out have started to settle down. Many older players now have families and other financial commitments. That means a large amount of the income now comes from their large newer playerbase. These newer players have migrated from games that rewarded aggressive play styles and put emphasis on attacking. WotC is just adapting and appealing to the crowd that will throw the most money at them. Sad, but I think that is the truth. I have nothing against newer players. I have nothing against WotC. I do have a problem with how WotC decided to go about getting the results they wanted. Shallow business practices when there are ways to appeal to both kinds of consumers.
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 01:31:05 PM
Maybe there just trying to help us discover the "sleeping giants" they sow in each set. They've probably sown more than we know
Yeah, but when people discover the sleeping giants, WotC will just ban them anyway :-\
And DG, I agree with everything you said, except for the bit about RTR shocks. Shocks were on par with fetches until RtR. Hard to find and expensive (for modern.) New players in these creature-heavy environments will more than likely not run shocks because they are scared of the 2 damage they cause and there are already so many dual lands in standard that new players like (see tap lands and guildgates.) IMO shocks have been reprinted and made more readily available to help push players into modern and boost standard for the more "professional" players. While shock lands did stimulate more sales (the only reason I waste my money on GTC [man that is a horrible horrible set,]) they really helped people get into older formats.
DG. What you said makes me wonder if there might be some truth about MaRo's article on the new new world order. Well, I have another suggested solution...start the new players with simple Johnny-ish cards. Make agressive creatures have Johnny-ish abilities but make them relatively simple, yet they can make a Johnny-ish aggro deck and not realize it. Or they could make a precon deck that's aggro creatures, with very simple yet creative interactions between the cards
Come to think of it...fiery dawn was kind of like that...
Quote from: Silent1236 on April 22, 2013, 01:48:41 PM
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 01:31:05 PM
Maybe there just trying to help us discover the "sleeping giants" they sow in each set. They've probably sown more than we know
Yeah, but when people discover the sleeping giants, WotC will just ban them anyway :-\
And DG, I agree with everything you said, except for the bit about RTR shocks. Shocks were on par with fetches until RtR. Hard to find and expensive (for modern.) New players in these creature-heavy environments will more than likely not run shocks because they are scared of the 2 damage they cause and there are already so many dual lands in standard that new players like (see tap lands and guildgates.) IMO shocks have been reprinted and made more readily available to help push players into modern and boost standard for the more "professional" players. While shock lands did stimulate more sales (the only reason I waste my money on GTC [man that is a horrible horrible set,]) they really helped people get into older formats.
Sigh, It's times like this I wish the Internet had a sarcasm font. I was being sarcastic about the shocks. What I was trying to say is WotC's methods are very contradicting. They want a format that is diverse, but nuke any deck that is not one of the big 3-4. They promise to support the format, yet they have not been very successful. Through the manner of an ill formed joke, I stated that they probably just included te shocks to sell boosters. I know how expensive they were. That is when I unloaded all of mine. But I was trying to insinuate that they really do not care about the players. The fetches are up to where the shocks were. Some even higher than the ceiling on the shocks at there most expensive point. How do they handle this? They don't. Even Modern Masters is not going to help. If they really wanted to help they would put staples into circulation faster. It's not hard, but they would rather just cash grab then please consumers.
Ah I see. My bad, then!
Quote from: Silent1236 on April 22, 2013, 02:35:15 PM
Ah I see. My bad, then!
No, it's all good :) I am just annoyed that WotC says one thing then does another. Imagine how easy it would be to reprint staples for modern. They could make a lot of money by reprinting staples in the side projects (FTV, Duel Decks, Planeschase, etc). The secondhand market is a stupid argument too. Magic is a game first and an investment to make money second. The need to do what is best for the game, not for the collectors. Let the collectors have their Power 9 and duals. But was there any reason Remand could not have been printed in DGM? Blue already is weak, that card could have easily thrived there. What about the FNM promos? Why unplayable standard garbage? Why not an alternate art Inquisition of Kozilek? This is an easy problem to fix with many solutions. WotC is just too incompetent and greedy to do what is best for the game.
I'm just praying for some blue powerhouse counters and fetch reprints. Onslaught or Zendikar. Make standard enjoyable for everyone. Balance the sets. Don't favor one archetype in this block/set, then totally screw it over in the next block/set. Allow all players to enjoy the game. It seems like it should be somewhat simple. RtR was pretty nice. Gave {Sphinx's Revelation}, {Syncopate} (no {Remand}, but whatever,) and still kept some quick little guys like {Ash Zealot}, {Rakdos Cackler}, etc. WotC is just messing up here. Hopefully something changes soon and MtG doesn't just become a sinking ship that'll end up with just a few devoted players after the dust settles.
Quote from: Silent1236 on April 22, 2013, 02:56:00 PM
I'm just praying for some blue powerhouse counters and fetch reprints. Onslaught or Zendikar. Make standard enjoyable for everyone. Balance the sets. Don't favor one archetype in this block/set, then totally screw it over in the next block/set. Allow all players to enjoy the game. It seems like it should be somewhat simple. RtR was pretty nice. Gave {Sphinx's Revelation}, {Syncopate} (no {Remand}, but whatever,) and still kept some quick little guys like {Ash Zealot}, {Rakdos Cackler}, etc. WotC is just messing up here. Hopefully something changes soon and MtG doesn't just become a sinking ship that'll end up with just a few devoted players after the dust settles.
I agree. Control might as well be dead in standard. The new Hatebear mythic, the green flyer with pro blue, notion thief, etc. They just printed a bunch of cards to deal with Sphinx's Revelation. I am so tired of this nonsense. Magic is still a fun game, but why do they print all of this unbalanced crap? Remand would have been a nice one in DGM. With all of the control hate, it would have been a nice nod to blue. It would have also put more $10 uncommons back into circulation. Another wasted opputunity by WotC. Honestly, does it seem like they even care? I proposed this idea the other day. But if WotC does not even care, why should I?
I just hope the reason they banned eggs is because they are going to throw a lot of diversity at us in the theros block. Otherwise ill be PO'ed
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 03:13:52 PM
I just hope the reason they banned eggs is because they are going to throw a lot of diversity at us in the theros block. Otherwise ill be PO'ed
Hopefully that is the case, but don't hold your breath. You know what Theros block needs? Onslaught fetches. That would help modern and legacy both. I doubt they will do that though. They will just make a special set when the decide to reprint them. Something along the lines of a product with a MSRP of like $80. That way stores like SCG and CFB can go ahead and charge $200+
TL;DR
DG is a little PO'ed
Oh and DG. I say all this not realy liking eggs all that much. I just think it was stupid to ban the deck altogether. They should have just seriously crippled it, then slowly brought it back up as new decks emerged in modern
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 03:23:47 PM
Oh and DG. I say all this not realy liking eggs all that much. I just think it was stupid to ban the deck altogether. They should have just seriously crippled it, then slowly brought it back up as new decks emerged in modern
Again I agree (even though I play the deck). The excuse they gave about time was a lie (good eggs players can finish before time). They just said time was an issue because they did not want to admit they hate the deck and want stupid goodstuff decks to rule the format so they can sell their new unbalanced BS. I would have had more respect for WotC if they just would have said the deck was boring or to consistent. But time is just a lame excuse.
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 03:23:47 PM
Oh and DG. I say all this not realy liking eggs all that much. I just think it was stupid to ban the deck altogether. They should have just seriously crippled it, then slowly brought it back up as new decks emerged in modern
This. I'm glad to not have to see eggs, but this is too far, really.
I bet they would have said they were banning it because its boring if they could. Obviously wizards cares more about there reputation and were afraid people would quit the game if they said they were banning it because it was boring. I want to make a combo deck that opperates similar to eggs now, and find a way to qualify for the pro-tour, and show the deck to former eggs players
Eggs was a reasonable deck before Faith's Reward so I could see it being a fringe deck.
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 03:43:24 PM
I bet they would have said they were banning it because its boring if they could. Obviously wizards cares more about there reputation and were afraid people would quit the game if they said they were banning it because it was boring. I want to make a combo deck that opperates similar to eggs now, and find a way to qualify for the pro-tour, and show the deck to former eggs players
It would have sounded stupider of they said it was boring to play against. But at least they would be telling the truth. I would be annoyed, but I would still have respect for the company for night trying to cover up their motives. Honesty goes a long way with me.
Quote from: Death Gaara on April 22, 2013, 03:51:53 PM
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 03:43:24 PM
I bet they would have said they were banning it because its boring if they could. Obviously wizards cares more about there reputation and were afraid people would quit the game if they said they were banning it because it was boring. I want to make a combo deck that opperates similar to eggs now, and find a way to qualify for the pro-tour, and show the deck to former eggs players
It would have sounded stupider of they said it was boring to play against. But at least they would be telling the truth. I would be annoyed, but I would still have respect for the company for night trying to cover up their motives. Honesty goes a long way with me.
lets try to come up with eggs like decks and find a way to show them to former eggs players that play in the protour and world championships. Not to get back at wizards, but as a peaceful protest to the banning of the deck. Then maybe they might bring it back
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: Death Gaara on April 22, 2013, 03:51:53 PM
Quote from: Birdbrain on April 22, 2013, 03:43:24 PM
I bet they would have said they were banning it because its boring if they could. Obviously wizards cares more about there reputation and were afraid people would quit the game if they said they were banning it because it was boring. I want to make a combo deck that opperates similar to eggs now, and find a way to qualify for the pro-tour, and show the deck to former eggs players
It would have sounded stupider of they said it was boring to play against. But at least they would be telling the truth. I would be annoyed, but I would still have respect for the company for night trying to cover up their motives. Honesty goes a long way with me.
lets try to come up with eggs like decks and find a way to show them to former eggs players that play in the protour and world championships. Not to get back at wizards, but as a peaceful protest to the banning of the deck. Then maybe they might bring it back
I have already been working ideas in my head since this morning. Please pm me a list of that modern deck you are trying to build. I cannot open it up in the deck viewer for some reason.
You know, this may be late in the discussion, but the least they could do is unban something fun, I'm voting for at least {Mental Misstep} make the format more enjoyable and help new decks
In my opiniom, banning misstep was smart. Every deck would run 4.
Quote from: Coffee Vampire on April 22, 2013, 05:22:21 PM
In my opiniom, banning misstep was smart. Every deck would run 4.
Yeah. Misstep would be really crazy in a format with lots of 1 drops. This seems like one of the few reasonable bans.
Although, that makes me wonder if they'll decide to ban {Dismember}
Eggs got banned because it took to long and brought too many games to time. It's hard for most people to follow and with the time it takes to play it in my opinion got rightfully banned. I think wizards is a bit ban happy but decks like eggs are not healthy IMO when people have to wait how many minutes to just take their turn or see or the other player pulled their combo off right?
Its good and bad as many people are saying. Banhammer is getting out of control, but now modern is a format where i no longer must worry about waiting till time. I think the positives outweigh te negatives seeing as modern isnt my main format anyways