Ok so heres the deal.
I have always thought that "Mind control" enchantments trumps effects and spells.
I.e I cast {Mind control} on your {Kird Ape} i gain control of it. Next turn you cast {Gruul Charm} and gain back control with the enchantment still there.
I always thought that eventhough the charm for example is an indefinite effect i would gain control of the ape at the next state check because the enchantment is there.
What is right and what is wrong?
Who controls the poor confused monkey?
I think they would take control of the enchantment as well.
Quote from: Trunksthemighty on January 31, 2013, 06:39:27 PM
I think they would take control of the enchantment as well.
I own mind control so why would they get it?
Look down the page at the Soul Ransom thread.
I'm not sure how to link using the iPad app or I would.
That thread didnt make any sense to me thats why im asking here in my own way.
But they control {mind control} so the effect should be theirs... {vedalken shackles} takes control of creatures an you get their effects, without owning it... If mind control were an equipment theyd gain control, but your ownership would allow you to re-equip it to a creature of yours from their side of the field. Control and own have different applicable traits
You still control Mind Control, but the Gruul Charm is a continuous effect. Essentially your enchantment becomes worthless.
Quote from: MisterJH on January 31, 2013, 06:50:14 PM
But they control {mind control} so the effect should be theirs... {vedalken shackles} takes control of creatures an you get their effects, without owning it... If mind control were an equipment theyd gain control, but your ownership would allow you to re-equip it to a creature of yours from their side of the field. Control and own have different applicable traits
I control {Mindcontrol}?
Quote from: Rigeld on January 31, 2013, 06:52:05 PM
You still control Mind Control, but the Gruul Charm is a continuous effect. Essentially your enchantment becomes worthless.
Yeah thats what everyone says but why?
Doesnt the enchantment go "Hey look the controler of me controls this creature! Here you go!"
Quote from: Fenster on January 31, 2013, 06:58:57 PM
Quote from: Rigeld on January 31, 2013, 06:52:05 PM
You still control Mind Control, but the Gruul Charm is a continuous effect. Essentially your enchantment becomes worthless.
Yeah thats what everyone says but why?
Doesnt the enchantment go "Hey look the controler of me controls this creature! Here you go!"
It did.
And he took control back.
Quote from: Rigeld on January 31, 2013, 07:01:52 PM
Quote from: Fenster on January 31, 2013, 06:58:57 PM
Quote from: Rigeld on January 31, 2013, 06:52:05 PM
You still control Mind Control, but the Gruul Charm is a continuous effect. Essentially your enchantment becomes worthless.
Yeah thats what everyone says but why?
Doesnt the enchantment go "Hey look the controler of me controls this creature! Here you go!"
It did.
And he took control back.
And again the enchantment goes "Still enchanted! Back i go!" Except this time theres no charm.
Well idek what gruul charm is so im not qualified to argue
Quote from: MisterJH on January 31, 2013, 07:13:01 PM
Well idek what gruul charm is so im not qualified to argue
{Gruul charm} Gain control of all permanents you own.
Whatever the last "Gain control of" effect was takes precedence. The enchantment remains on the creature, but no longer has an effect on the controller of the card. It is a one shot deal, and will need to be cast again in order for it to take effect again.
Quote from: Testset on January 31, 2013, 07:15:35 PM
Imagine the Gruul charm produces an emblem that says "You control all permanents you own. Ignore all control effects from other spells, permanents, or effects played before this."
I keep hearing that but no one tells me why?
And why wont the enchantment be recognized at the next state check? It doesnt say "When Mind control etb gain control of enchanted creature." It says "You control enchanted creature." The creature is still enchanted even though i lost control back to its original owner. Why does he get to keep it when its still enchanted?
This is by far the most confusing topic I've ever discussed on here. The last time, I asked what happened to a {mind control}'d {karona, false god} and all I remember is being advised to simply not do it...lol. As karona is my EDH general, I would REALLY love to know what happens with this particular mechanic.
I'm not going to post the whole ruling, because my god, does it get ridiculous. With these effects, they all apply in layer 2 (control of cards). With these types of effects, the last effect, or the last spell toget a "timestamp" takes precedence and overrules the other.
If you guys are feeling up to it, read on rule 613 and all 4 million of its subsections ;)
Thanks keyeto!
The way i always saw it was like this.
Ape is sitting here in my lap.
My opponent gets his "attention" with a blinking light!(mind control)The ape now only stares at the blinking light. Then i flash a stronger light and the ape turns back to me! (gruul charm).
But when the strong light fades the ape turns back to the continously blinking light.
Tldr: Why is charm considered a constantly blinking light when nothing at all says it is?
Quote from: Fenster on January 31, 2013, 07:25:59 PM
The way i always saw it was like this.
Ape is sitting here in my lap.
My opponent gets his "attention" with a blinking light!(mind control)The ape now only stares at the blinking light. Then i flash a stronger light and the ape turns back to me! (gruul charm).
But when the strong light fades the ape turns back to the continously blinking light.
Tldr: Why is charm considered a constantly blinking light when nothing at all says it is?
Try and think of it this way. Mind control doesn't say "Gain control of target creature for as long as Mind Control is on the field". It just says "Gain control of target creature". It happens once and then it's over. The confusing thing, is that it is in enchantment form. But nonetheless, it's a one shot effect.
Precisely. We always used to treat {control magic} / {mind control} as a constant effect...just like every other aura. If my opponent {act of treason}s my creature with a rancor on it, when it smacks me in the face, I'm pretty sure it will be for +2 and trample. If they {mind control}'d the same rancored creature, it would still be rancored for as long as it lives. Confucius say what?
I think this is as simple as I can make it:
Both Mind Control and Gruul Charm generate control-changing effects, and both are applied on the same layer. Neither of them have a time restraint on the card, so unless otherwise interrupted, neither effect will end. Because of that, the newest timestamp "wins."
Does this make sense?
Time stamps. End of discussion.
Quote from: scarsabrex on January 31, 2013, 07:56:40 PM
Time stamps. End of discussion.
Simply put, yes.
And just to complicate things again....
When applying continuous effects, such as Mind Control or Gruul Charm's "control" effects, the game checks the state of the card in 7 different layers. Layer 2 is control (if you want to see all the layers, Rule 613 is the way to go).
613.6. Within a layer or sublayer, determining which order effects are applied in is usually done using a timestamp system. An effect with an earlier timestamp is applied before an effect with a later timestamp.
That being said, the last effect that received a timestamp is applied, and overrides the other.
RESOLVED
So when does iKeyeto app come out? lol
Quote from: Double-O-Scotch on January 31, 2013, 10:08:24 PM
So when does iKeyeto app come out? lol
When the world is in need of MtG rules questions that can only be explained in overly complicated ways, iKeyeto shall heed its cry.
Ok i get it... I've been confused because of dotp 2012. I played mindcontrol on a creature then my opponent cast {Cultural exchange} but after that i got both creatures.
Thanks yall